The Blackleg Miner and FAF.

Subject: RE: The Blackleg Miner and FAF.
From: GUEST,Suibhne Astray
Date: 01 Jul 10 - 04:20 AM

Cheers, Ed - I'll make sure that's part of my summer listening before much longer!

Right now I savouring the delights of early Kraftwerk - those first three pre-Autobahn albums that have never seen official CD release. Dismissed by Ralf as '...archaeology...', keen archaeologist might take heart that they might be had gratis from various blogspots.

Subject: RE: The Blackleg Miner and FAF.
From: GUEST,Ed
Date: 01 Jul 10 - 02:56 AM

I love that live version of For Richard that covered an entire side of the old Canturbuy Tales double. Can you get that on CD anywhere I wonder?

Suibhne,

That version of 'For Richard' is currently available on the Live at the Fairfield Halls CD.

Subject: RE: The Blackleg Miner and FAF.
From: brezhnev
Date: 30 Jun 10 - 05:48 PM

Continuity Jones: did you ever get to see Battle Picture Library? I've still got my copy of No 15.

Subject: RE: The Blackleg Miner and FAF.
From: Bounty Hound
Date: 30 Jun 10 - 05:08 PM

Good Soldier Schweik:
'please, can those people who wish to sing a song be allowed to do so'

A resounding 'Hear Hear' from me to that.

And just in case anyone missed it last time, the bit of gratuitous self promotion.

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=-F3OvZvUgIU

John

Subject: RE: The Blackleg Miner and FAF.
From: GUEST,Suibhne Astray
Date: 30 Jun 10 - 02:46 PM

along with various stuff from the 'Canterbury scene' (Soft Machine, Caravan etc)

I love that live version of For Richard that covered an entire side of the old Canturbuy Tales double. Can you get that on CD anywhere I wonder? My favourite Soft Machine right now is the Live at the Paradiso, March 1969 CD in which the Ratledge, Hopper, Wyatt trio blast their way through most Volume 2 in a single unbroken 40 minute sequence - utterly amazing!

Subject: RE: The Blackleg Miner and FAF.
From: The Sandman
Date: 30 Jun 10 - 02:42 PM

there is a place for the 2 minute popsong , definitely, it is excellent material to be flushed down the jacks, along with all the other flotsam and jetsam, and consumer waste of society.

Subject: RE: The Blackleg Miner and FAF.
From: GUEST
Date: 30 Jun 10 - 02:14 PM

On the whole I prefer extended durations

Me too, and I'd put Krafwerk's original Autobahn down as a favourite, along with various stuff from the 'Canterbury scene' (Soft Machine, Caravan etc)

To my mind there is a place for the 2 minute 'pop song'.

Subject: RE: The Blackleg Miner and FAF.
From: The Sandman
Date: 30 Jun 10 - 01:17 PM

please, can those people who wish to sing a song be allowed to do so, those who wish to sing a song to support FAF do so, those who dont want to sing the song but wish to support FAF, SUPPORT faf in some other way.

Subject: RE: The Blackleg Miner and FAF.
From: GUEST,Suibhne Astray
Date: 30 Jun 10 - 12:58 PM

On the whole I prefer extended durations - right now I'm chilling to John Coltrane live in Japan, circa 1966, with a version of My Favourite Things that clocks in at nigh on 58-minutes. Bliss. Today we've been out driving with Krafwerk's original Autobahn very loud on the car stereo - 22-minutes. Earlier on, my breakfast listening was Rene Zosso's solo rendering of Jaufre Rudel's Lanquan li Jorn on the Clemencic Consort's Troubadours trilogy (or 2 CDs if you prefer!) which he brings in around 16-minutes. I say again - bliss.

Subject: RE: The Blackleg Miner and FAF.
From: GUEST,Ed
Date: 30 Jun 10 - 09:15 AM

a concert programme made up entirely of numbers that would fit on one side of a 78 will always sound scrappy.

Most '60s pop bands managed OK... (or maybe that's what you meant)

Subject: RE: The Blackleg Miner and FAF.
From: Jack Campin
Date: 30 Jun 10 - 08:57 AM

Thanks - there are several versions of "Jack Orion" on Spotify.

Dunno why Sean is complaining about it being too long - of the versions on Spotify, only Jansch and Pentangle go over 5 minutes. Lloyd's own version is the shortest, at 3:59.   Somebody who uploads to YouTube as "sabrinaeden" has 31 videos longer than that. In any case, long songs have a place - a concert programme made up entirely of numbers that would fit on one side of a 78 will always sound scrappy.

I can't imagine what Laura Cortese thinks she's up to with that song.

The tune seems to be a variant of "Katherine Ogie" - is that traditionally associated with "Glasgerion"?

Subject: RE: The Blackleg Miner and FAF.
From: GUEST,Ed
Date: 30 Jun 10 - 04:42 AM

Is there a clearly sung unaccompanied or minimally accompanied version [of "Jack Orion"] out there?

Martin Carthy's version is clearly enunciated and accompanied solely by Dave Swarbrick's fiddle. I can't find it on youtube, but I'll happily forward you an mp3 if you wish.

Ed

Subject: RE: The Blackleg Miner and FAF.
From: GUEST,S O'P (Astray)
Date: 30 Jun 10 - 04:14 AM

I make a crack about constipation and testosterone, and I get accused of operating a police state.

It was not a crack, Joe - it was an intervention. FYI - my bowels are fine & my testosterone likewise; and at 48 I am still young for Folk & Mudcat which is not so much a police state, more of a nursing home overseen by faceless moderators in white coats lurking behind two-way mirrors and all to the strains of Mantovani's Charmaine - which actually begins to sound dangerously edgy compared to a lot of lobotomised so-called folk around these days.

S O'P

PS - I've decided to keep signed out in so as people don't PM me - good or bad, say it up front or don't say it at all. I certainly have no desire to duck under your searchlights and radars...

Subject: RE: The Blackleg Miner and FAF.
From: Jack Campin
Date: 29 Jun 10 - 07:13 PM

I don't think I'd even heard of "Jack Orion" until this thread.

I looked for it on YouTube. The Pentangle version is unlistenably self-indulgent rubbish (like virtually all the output of the English electric-revival crowd). The Jansch one has a tasteful accompaniment, but he put zero effort into the vocals - I can't decode enough of that mumbling to tell what's going on in the story.

Is there a clearly sung unaccompanied or minimally accompanied version out there somewhere?

Subject: RE: The Blackleg Miner and FAF.
From: Tootler
Date: 29 Jun 10 - 06:42 PM

Oh and 100!

First time I've done it!!

Subject: RE: The Blackleg Miner and FAF.
From: Tootler
Date: 29 Jun 10 - 06:41 PM

I think You Tube has constipation. It got halfway through the song Crow Sister posted a link to and then suffered a seizure. It's done that a few times on me in the last couple of days.

How about prune juice for You Tube - or maybe Sennacot might be more effective.

Subject: RE: The Blackleg Miner and FAF.
From: McGrath of Harlow
Date: 29 Jun 10 - 06:40 PM

The Yahie Miners and the Blackleg Miners are two variants of the same song.

Most of the songs we sing exist in numerous variants, with new ones cropping up all the time, thanks to faulty memories, changing circumstances, and personal preferances.

Subject: RE: The Blackleg Miner and FAF.
From: Joe Offer
Date: 29 Jun 10 - 05:25 PM

No, Crow Sister, I saw it on the list of Guest messages. I wish people would learn that if they want to fly under the radar, they should register and log in....

Hmmmmm.....my 21-yr-old stepson had to explain the term "E.D." to me yesterday. I wonder if THAT plays a factor.....

Subject: RE: The Blackleg Miner and FAF.
From: GUEST,Banjiman
Date: 29 Jun 10 - 05:15 PM

"Prune Juice For a Peaceful World"

Should be a T Shirt Slogan!

Subject: RE: The Blackleg Miner and FAF.
From: Crow Sister (off with the fairies)
Date: 29 Jun 10 - 04:44 PM

"in any case this isn't heated as far I'm concerned, just a series of idle banter and in-jokes."

Amen, banter aside, this is err only banter..
Nothing too rough going on here IMO.

Just wondering - did you get complaints Joe?

Subject: RE: The Blackleg Miner and FAF.
From: Joe Offer
Date: 29 Jun 10 - 04:39 PM

Yeah, banjiman, that's the problem - these crotchety old men have lots of good information and I don't want to chase 'em away, but they sure can be a surly lot. I make a crack about constipation and testosterone, and I get accused of operating a police state.
Prune juice is what's needed to make this world a more peaceful place - lots of it.
-Joe-

Subject: RE: The Blackleg Miner and FAF.
From: Crow Sister (off with the fairies)
Date: 29 Jun 10 - 04:34 PM

"curdled testosterone,"

I doubt that, having met his wife..

Subject: RE: The Blackleg Miner and FAF.
From: GUEST,Banjiman
Date: 29 Jun 10 - 04:32 PM

I'd let them be Joe (actually prune juice sounds about right). They're pretty harmless really...... and pretty well-informed.

Subject: RE: The Blackleg Miner and FAF.
From: Crow Sister (off with the fairies)
Date: 29 Jun 10 - 04:32 PM

"Well, Crow Sister, constipation is certainly a factor in the crotchetiness of aging Mudcatters, both male and female. Maybe we should distribute virtual prune juice when they appear to be getting "that way."Heck, yesterday I had to delete messages in a thread about the weather, because people were getting too ornery."

Heh Joe, well you can't blame *that* on age in my case, though maybe a disrespect for it ;-)
Otherwise, I was going to post Clampdown by the Clash, but thought this would be more suitable considering the context: http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=QL15Ya5fsgo

Subject: RE: The Blackleg Miner and FAF.
From: Joe Offer
Date: 29 Jun 10 - 04:32 PM

Yup. In the severely crotchety case of S O'P, it's clear that it's both constipation and curdled testosterone, causing a severe inability to accept a touch of humor.....

Subject: RE: The Blackleg Miner and FAF.
From: GUEST,S O'P (Astray)
Date: 29 Jun 10 - 04:00 PM

Oh for goodness sake, Joe - enough with the nannying already & think about the spirit of the thing. It's this sort of policing that ruins Mudcat, not the heated debates - and in any case this isn't heated as far I'm concerned, just a series of idle banter and in-jokes.

I was rather enjoying being back; now I'm reminded why I left - the clampdown on free-speech backed up by the malicious PM-ing.

Soon as one of my posts get deleted I'm out of here!

Subject: RE: The Blackleg Miner and FAF.
From: Joe Offer
Date: 29 Jun 10 - 03:54 PM

Well, Crow Sister, constipation is certainly a factor in the crotchetiness of aging Mudcatters, both male and female. Maybe we should distribute virtual prune juice when they appear to be getting "that way."
Heck, yesterday I had to delete messages in a thread about the weather, because people were getting too ornery. I'm not sure if I should force-feed people with prune juice, or it it would be better to spray them with prune juice and cool them down.
-Joe-

Subject: RE: The Blackleg Miner and FAF.
From: Crow Sister (off with the fairies)
Date: 29 Jun 10 - 03:20 PM

"...or could it be constipation????"

Well Joe, I prefer that to the thought of curdled testes I must say.

Subject: RE: The Blackleg Miner and FAF.
From: Joe Offer
Date: 29 Jun 10 - 03:07 PM

...or could it be constipation????

Subject: RE: The Blackleg Miner and FAF.
From: Joe Offer
Date: 29 Jun 10 - 03:03 PM

OK, OK - peace, love, sweetness, and light, y'all.
In other words, please stop acting like crotchety old men whose testosterone has gone sour. I think that's the crux of a lot of the problems we have at Mudcat - testosterone that's gone sour. I used to think that happened to my parents' generation, but now I see the men of my own generation turning into crotchety old farts......and I wonder when it's going to happen to me.

-Joe-

Subject: RE: The Blackleg Miner and FAF.
From: Crow Sister (off with the fairies)
Date: 29 Jun 10 - 01:30 PM

"curmudgeonly old grunter that he is."

Tsk, you should all be ashamed of yourselves! What no Folk Degree? ;-)

Subject: RE: The Blackleg Miner and FAF.
From: GUEST,Young Buchan
Date: 29 Jun 10 - 01:11 PM

Murray McLeod [..." it lasts that long " ...
does it indeed.
my grandmother was a McDonald, maybe I should go and kill myself a few Campbells.]

If, as was the case in my example, you know a few Campbells who personally took part in the Glencoe massacre, then yes, maybe you should.

Subject: RE: The Blackleg Miner and FAF.
From: GUEST,S O'P (Astray)
Date: 29 Jun 10 - 12:42 PM

He started it, curmudgeonly old grunter that he is.

Subject: RE: The Blackleg Miner and FAF.
From: GUEST,Banjiman
Date: 29 Jun 10 - 10:02 AM

It's so nice that SO'P is back and that he and Jim are at each others throats.

Just like old times!! I've missed it!

Subject: RE: The Blackleg Miner and FAF.
From: Jim Carroll
Date: 29 Jun 10 - 09:40 AM

What facts are those?
The facts that Lloyd based Jack Orion on Glasgerion, nothing more - the rest is down to personal taste.
You appear by your tone, to wish to shove yours down everbody elses throats.
Jim Carroll

Subject: RE: The Blackleg Miner and FAF.
From: Continuity Jones
Date: 29 Jun 10 - 09:06 AM

Brezhnev, that's very funny indeed, at least to my happy eyes.

Subject: RE: The Blackleg Miner and FAF.
From: GUEST,S O'P (Astray)
Date: 29 Jun 10 - 07:20 AM

So you don't let the facts spoil a good theory - no change there then.

What facts are those? I know he based Jack Orion on Glasgerion - so what? Does that automatically qualify it as quality piece of work? Obviously not in this case - Jack Orion is a piece of bogus repro folkery of the worst order. In its attempt to effect idiomatic ballad language it falls short by many country miles, and yet it goes on forever. It is an overkill of Pugin Psuedo Gothic proportions - some may like it, but each time I here it sung all I think is - that's ten minutes (at least) of my life I'll never get back.

Suggest you try Child or Bronson - or maybe Bert faked them!

I'm well acquainted with both thank you very much. But tell me pray, what's that got to do with Jack Orion?

Subject: RE: The Blackleg Miner and FAF.
From: brezhnev
Date: 29 Jun 10 - 05:54 AM

Continuity Jones: did you ever see Commando No 15 ?

Subject: RE: The Blackleg Miner and FAF.
From: Jim Carroll
Date: 29 Jun 10 - 05:30 AM

And you do favour the Lloyd Provenance yourself, do you not?
I accept it as a possibility - no more; so I don't make definitive statements about it.
"I've sat through too many renderings of JO to change my mind ...."
So you don't let the facts spoil a good theory - no change there then.
Suggest you try Child or Bronson - or maybe Bert faked them!
Jim Carroll

Subject: RE: The Blackleg Miner and FAF.
From: Continuity Jones
Date: 29 Jun 10 - 04:53 AM

Precisely three people have got it. Precisely three people understand the class war and treachery. Precisely three people understand that only when unions eventually smash capitalism will there be justice for the workers. Fucking brilliant

-----------------------

Or, precisely three people thought the same as you.

It's a Commando comic song. Commando comics have their place - heck, we've all read one or two - but most of us have moved on to slightly more - ahem, detailed and thorough - literature. Unfortunately, a Commando comic can't adequately describe the complex and varied reasons, situtations and problems / choices bought on by striking miners in any real depth. A few good vivid pictures, but I never learned any substantial German. Hände hoch!

Subject: RE: The Blackleg Miner and FAF.
From: Phil Edwards
Date: 29 Jun 10 - 04:31 AM

Precisely three people understand that only when unions eventually smash capitalism will there be justice for the workers.

Steady on, Richard. The Blackleg Miner has absolutely nothing to do with smashing capitalism - it's a celebration of division in the working class, workers fighting other workers. I understand the anger of the song, but the fact is that brutality against scabs isn't always a good tactic - & sometimes it's a very bad tactic. (Sometimes the best tactic is to choke down your completely justifiable anger and use friendly persuasion.)

So I don't think it's appropriate for people who aren't faced with those decisions, and don't feel that anger in their own right, to celebrate aggression and brutality against other workers as if it was a natural expression of working-class anger. I certainly don't think it's the jolly right-on singalong that FAF are looking for.

Incidentally, I think Griffin lobbed Billy Bragg a bit of a soft one, presumably because the fat fraud doesn't know any traditional songs himself. We were lucky it wasn't "I bet Billy Bragg doesn't know The Four Loom Weaver".

Subject: RE: The Blackleg Miner and FAF.
From: Bounty Hound
Date: 28 Jun 10 - 05:46 PM

Whatever the provenence of the song, It's a cracking song. The sentiments expressed are totally understandable, it's called human nature! Sadly our current trade unions don't have the same fire in their bellies.

I'ts always gone down well when the 'Hounds' perform it, and we will dedicate it to FAF from now on.

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=-F3OvZvUgIU

Subject: RE: The Blackleg Miner and FAF.
From: Murray MacLeod
Date: 28 Jun 10 - 05:41 PM

Richard, I understand the class war as well as anybody, in fact I understand it to the extent that I know that unions are never going to smash capitalism.

The only way capitalism is going to be smashed is when a majority (globally) of the population understand the true tenets of socialism, and when and if that ever that happens, capitalism will be overthrown.

Capitalism can not be overthrown in one country, in isolation.

It is not going to happen in my lifetime, and not in my children's lifetime, however, so meanwhile I will continue to espouse the ethical values which I absorbed with my mother's milk, and continue to despise the brutality of the sentiments expressed in "The Blackleg Miner".

Subject: RE: The Blackleg Miner and FAF.
From: GUEST,S O'P (Astray)
Date: 28 Jun 10 - 05:15 PM

and you continue to make definitive (and unqualified) statements as to its origin - but I forgot - that's what you always do, isn't it.

Pish. A few posts back I was speculating on the possibility of Yahie Miners deriving from Blackleg Miner - a sweet compromise! And you do favour the Lloyd Provenance yourself, do you not?

I hope you're not suggesting 'Jack Orion' to be a fake - it isn't, Lloyd adapted it from Glasgerion; quite skilfully, in my opinion, though I much prefer MacColl's.

Sorry, old man - I've sat through too many renderings of JO to change my mind on it, no matter what it was based on! Just my opinion though - and my preference...

Subject: RE: The Blackleg Miner and FAF.
From: semiotic
Date: 28 Jun 10 - 05:14 PM

"Workers by hand and brain"

Subject: RE: The Blackleg Miner and FAF.
From: The Sandman
Date: 28 Jun 10 - 05:12 PM

I agree, Richard

Subject: RE: The Blackleg Miner and FAF.
From: Richard Bridge
Date: 28 Jun 10 - 05:04 PM

Precisely three people have got it. Precisely three people understand the class war and treachery. Precisely three people understand that only when unions eventually smash capitalism will there be justice for the workers. Fucking brilliant.

Even in white collar jobs like mine the need is still there.

Subject: RE: The Blackleg Miner and FAF.
From: GUEST
Date: 28 Jun 10 - 03:35 PM

"It lasts that long. It's that important."
Doesn't it just.
There are still streets in Bethesda, Gwynedd, that no local would live in and incomers who do find that they are cold shouldered. The streets of the Bradwyr (Traitors), those who went back during the strike.

...oh yes...the strike was from November 1900 to June 1903.
look here

Subject: RE: The Blackleg Miner and FAF.
From: Jim Carroll
Date: 28 Jun 10 - 02:53 PM

"Jim, what does that mean - "it has served the revival pretty well"?
I've heard it in pretty well every folk club I've been involved with for the last forty-odd years - even the 'trad only' ones, and the ones Bert never set foot in.
"bet he couldn't have passed off...."
and you continue to make definitive (and unqualified) statements as to its origin - but I forgot - that's what you always do, isn't it.
If you have any evidence that the rest of us don't on the origins of the song, let's have it - won't hold my breath.
I hope you're not suggesting 'Jack Orion' to be a fake - it isn't, Lloyd adapted it from Glasgerion; quite skilfully, in my opinion, though I much prefer MacColl's.
Still don't know why anything Lloyd might have written doesn't fit your definition of 'folk' - and I don't suppose I ever shall.
Jim Carroll

Subject: RE: The Blackleg Miner and FAF.
From: GUEST,S O'P (Astray)
Date: 28 Jun 10 - 01:42 PM

The fact that you appear to dislike the song doesn't mean squat

Not true actually, old man - I like the song a good deal & when I have thrice expressed an opinion it has been positive; thus:

From 25 Jun 10 - 12:34 PM : Mind you I can't fault Blackleg Miner as a piece of Idiomatic Trad - bet he couldn't have passed of Jack Orion so easily (which is probably why he didn't) although I've had arguments regarding its authorship in the past.

From 26 Jun 10 - 03:39 AM : Whilst it manages to convince on every level, it isn't what it claims to be

From 27 Jun 10 - 06:25 AM : though I do concede that The Blackleg Miner is a fine piece of work and have no qualms regards the violence which is pure reportage on one level, and justified warning on the other. As Young Buchan points out - It lasts that long. It's that important.