Trad Irish songs, rebel & other... help

Subject: Trad Irish/Scottish songs, rebel & other... help
From: Big Ballad Singer
Date: 29 Jun 10 - 12:55 PM

Hi gang,

I am looking to expand both my performing repertoire and my mp3 collection.

Looking for people's "top 10" or 20 trad Irish or Scottish songs. Ballads, Republican songs, whatever.
English preferred, please... I am quite good at learning songs in other languages phonetically,
but I want to be able to understand and "own" what I am singing,
so English will have to do until my Gaelic gets better.
That should be around damn near never.

Please give me song titles, artist whose version you prefer, and any info about where these songs might be bought/traded/downloaded etc.

Also looking for sailing songs/chanteys and the like. They don't all have to be on the order of "Haul Away, Joe", but songs that have some seafaring pedigree are preferred.

Thanks... oh, and because my eyesight tends to get blurry pretty quick when reading for too long,
please, if you would be so kind, put your songs in a
vertical column list so I don't have to scan long sentences.

Thanks,

BBS

P.S. Is there a "hierarchy" of the more popular Irish bands as far as trad credibility or integrity goes?
I am thinking of groups like the Dubliners, the Chieftains,
the Clancy Brothers/Tommy Makem, Clannad, De Dannan etc...
who are the "more trad" or "more progressive"?

Subject: RE: Trad Irish songs, rebel & other... help
From: Crow Sister (off with the fairies)
Date: 29 Jun 10 - 01:02 PM

Gawd there must be a heap load of threads on this topic. But rather than pointing you there I'll point you to something else: Rebel Songs as Social Document?

Subject: RE: Trad Irish songs, rebel & other... help
From: Crow Sister (off with the fairies)
Date: 29 Jun 10 - 01:03 PM

Umm, are you an aspiring 'folk' singer.. Just a guess ;-)

Subject: RE: Trad Irish songs, rebel & other... help
From: GUEST,Big Ballad Singer
Date: 29 Jun 10 - 01:45 PM

Crow Sister,

Why do you ask? Actually, I'm Scottish and have an interest in the music of my ancestors. I also have Irish relatives and friends who are part of the struggle for Irish independence, so there's an emotional and personal investment there.

As far as being a "folk singer", I'm not sure what you mean. If that appellation is meant to be a mild pejorative, as though a "folk singer" is some sort of person that picks and chooses songs for "entertainment purposes", then, no, I am not a "folk singer".

I perform at libraries, schools and fairs and such, and always want there to be historical and cultural significance to the songs I sing and the stories I tell. In that sense, yes, I suppose I am a folk singer.

I apologize in advance if I have misunderstood your question... these things always HEAR better than they READ.

Regards,

BBS

Subject: RE: Trad Irish songs, rebel & other... help
From: Crow Sister (off with the fairies)
Date: 29 Jun 10 - 02:31 PM

Why do I assume you are an aspiring folk singer? Because of the requests in your post, like "Looking for people's "top 10 or 20 trad Irish or Scottish songs." and so-on.

Anyhoo, whatever your needs may be, there's a search function up there saying "filter", you will find heap loads of what you need :)

Subject: RE: Trad Irish songs, rebel & other... help
From: Amos
Date: 29 Jun 10 - 03:05 PM

The Clancy Brothers and Tommy Makem (RIP) are probably the most widely known and produced a great inventory of Irish songs of rebellion, as well as tunes of drunkeness, loutery, sea-going and general bald humor. Once you know their repertory you'll be good to go 'most anywhere.

Subject: RE: Trad Irish songs, rebel & other... help
From: GUEST,^&*
Date: 29 Jun 10 - 03:06 PM

BigBalladSinger

A more productive approach might be to list out some of your own favourite and/or most performed songs (and singers/groups) in these general areas and ask for ideas that might stretch your repertoire. Makes more sense than canvassing for shot-in-the-dark suggestions, I reckon.

Subject: RE: Trad Irish songs, rebel & other... help
From: Rob Naylor
Date: 29 Jun 10 - 03:55 PM

Be careful when settling your repertoire, though.

A lot of the songs that are regarded as "Trad Irish" are actually English or Scottish and seem to have "acquired Irishness" due to having been performed by, eg, the Dubliners, Clancy Brothers, etc. :-)

Subject: RE: Trad Irish songs, rebel & other... help
From: Crow Sister (off with the fairies)
Date: 29 Jun 10 - 04:02 PM

"A lot of the songs that are regarded as "Trad Irish" are actually English or Scottish"

Not to mention the American 'Irish' songs written *about* Ireland. Nothing wrong with those songs of course, unless you are seeking Traditional Irish songs!

Subject: RE: Trad Irish songs, rebel & other... help
From: GUEST,BBS
Date: 29 Jun 10 - 04:04 PM

Thanks for the help so far... here's a partial list from some recent sets:

I'll Tell Me Ma
The Leaving of Liverpool
The Gypsy Rover
Boulavogue
The Rising of the Moon
Red Is the Rose
Four Green Fields
The Rocky Road To Dublin
The Mary Ellen Carter
Brennan on the Moor


There are more, obviously... I almost always play "A Nation Once Again"
at or near the end of the performance.

An FYI to those who might notice a Republican slant to my song choices...
I have read and heartily agree with
a certain sentiment in the thread 'Irish songs of rebellion
as social document' (sic). In summary, I sing these songs
because they have redeeming social, political,
cultural and historical value even as
they advocate certain attitudes and/or actions that I might not.

To paraphrase Pete Seeger:

"Some may find them [Irish Republican/rebellion songs] merely diverting melodies. Others may find them incitements to... revolution. And who will say if either or both is wrong? Not I."

Subject: RE: Trad Irish songs, rebel & other... help
From: Emma B
Date: 29 Jun 10 - 04:13 PM

There are plenty of sources on the net such as href="http://www.chivalry.com/cantaria/lists/traditional.html">Cantaria that may be useful for starters.

I tend to agree with the above guest that it would be useful to post your own favourites and repertoire.

Subject: RE: Trad Irish songs, rebel & other... help
From: Emma B
Date: 29 Jun 10 - 04:16 PM

Sorry about the link Second time lucky?
Cantaria

Subject: RE: Trad Irish songs, rebel & other... help
From: maple_leaf_boy
Date: 29 Jun 10 - 04:30 PM

Scottish Music: The Corries sing a lot of Jacobite songs.
(Wha Widna Fecht For Charlie, Skye Boat Song)
Irish Music: The Wolfe Tones sing a lot of Irish independance songs.
(You'll Never Beat The Irish, Celtic Symphony).
I hope that helps too.

Subject: RE: Trad Irish songs, rebel & other... help
From: Dave_
Date: 29 Jun 10 - 04:50 PM

Have a lookie here for starters

http://www.kinglaoghaire.com

Subject: RE: Trad Irish songs, rebel & other... help
From: GUEST,Michele Callaghan
Date: 29 Jun 10 - 04:58 PM

Off the top of my head, I would listen to Jean Redpath, Ewan McColl, Andy Stewart, and Silly Wizard for Scottish. Clanaad, Plantxy, Finbar and Eddie Furey for Irish in addition to the people you have mentioned. I will mull over my favorite songs and post again!

Subject: RE: Trad Irish songs, rebel & other... help
From: Tootler
Date: 29 Jun 10 - 07:07 PM

Add Ian Campbell and Dick Gaughan for Scottish.

Dick Gaughan has a pretty good website with lyrics and info about the songs he sings.

Here is a link to his home page

Subject: RE: Trad Irish songs, rebel & other... help
From: Leadfingers
Date: 29 Jun 10 - 07:20 PM

For a start . Mary Ellen Carter is Canadian ! - Stan Rogers and should be always credited as such !

Subject: RE: Trad Irish songs, rebel & other... help
From: Rob Naylor
Date: 29 Jun 10 - 07:48 PM

Well, following on from my previous post, out of the set list you posted, "The Leaving of Liverpool" and "The Gypsy Rover" are both unlikely to be Irish.

I appreciate that "Gypsy Rover" was copyrighted by an Irishman in the 50s, but I believe most of the evidence points to it as having Scottish origins, with the 1950s version being a very close adaptation of a much older song.

"Leaving of Liverpool" has often been claimed as a "song of Irish emigration" but if you look at the words it's clearly a song about a sailor who's done several long voyages before. He knows Liverpool well, from the locations he mentions and indicates that it'll be a long time until he sees his girl again, not "never" (ie, he's expecting to come back to Liverpool in the future). So the balance of probabilities is that this is an English sea-song, rather than an Irish emigration song.

Subject: RE: Trad Irish songs, rebel & other... help
From: Jack Campin
Date: 29 Jun 10 - 08:38 PM

Actually, I'm Scottish and have an interest in the music of my ancestors. I also have Irish relatives and friends who are part of the struggle for Irish independence, so there's an emotional and personal investment there.

It's a cold cert that you also have relatives in Ireland and elsewhere who were part of the struggle AGAINST Irish independence. Nobody outside the deranged fantasies of a fascist has an ideologically pure family tree. So if your genes are telling you what to sing, they'll be telling you to sing along with the Rangers end of the ground as well.

One of my great-grandfathers was an Irish peasant from Mayo who joined the British Army at 14. So did a lot of Irishmen - far more than ever joined Irish-nationalist organizations at the time. Like the shits who join the British Army today, he saw it as a job. And got a medal for killing Afghans, just like lots of the mercenary psychos who make up the British and US armed forces right now.

I guess I must have some relatives from over there who were on strike with Larkin and fought with the IRB. Ireland's a small place and everybody is related to everybody else. But I've got no interest whatever in locating people in my family tree to feel warm and fuzzy about. Seems to me that taking an appropriate moral stance about my opportunistic murderous shit of a great-grandfather is a bit more relevant to the present day, seeing as how the official ideology says people like him are "our troops" and "heroes". Fuck that. They're killing, torturing and thieving for hire.

Subject: RE: Trad Irish songs, rebel & other... help
From: GUEST,BBS
Date: 29 Jun 10 - 08:41 PM

Rob,

I'm a Scot, so "The Gypsy Rover" suits me fine. I realize that "Liverpool" is not an Irish song per se, but it was a favorite of the Clancys and Tommy Makem especially, so it's a favorite of mine for that reason as well as on its own merits as a song.

Also, there are plenty of Irish and Scottish seamen who sailed out of Liverpool... Liverpool was a major shipping port and I am sure than multiplied thousands of non-Englishmen sailed from there as a matter of necessity because their hope of landing a position on a crew depended on being where the jobs were.

Saying that "Liverpool" is likely an English song based on the lyrics alone is like saying that all New Yorkers are native to the United States and to New York because that's where they live and work. Not likely by a long shot.

Anyway, thanks for the links and such, friends... I am, for those who are probably sighing over my initial post, also searching the DT and other places online. I only posted like this because I wanted sets of favorites or "classics" from fellow musicians and music-lovers. I was not just looking for material to add to my sets willy-nilly; I want to know what are the "must-hear" or "my personal top 20" or what-have-you.

Regards,

BBS

Subject: RE: Trad Irish songs, rebel & other... help
From: GUEST,^&*
Date: 30 Jun 10 - 02:16 AM

Why not try ""The Leaving of Limerick" instead of the more common Liverpool variant - you'll find the words and a discussion in THIS THREAD. Slow, reflective rather than raise-the-rafters but essentially the same tune.

Subject: RE: Trad Irish songs, rebel & other... help
From: Rob Naylor
Date: 30 Jun 10 - 05:08 AM

Hey, BBS, this is Mudcat....there's no way you're "just" going to get a list of songs on here, without a lot of discussion, comment, opinion and general hoo-ha!

It's a bit like asking a group of football fanatics (football of any type!) for thier lists of favourite players and expecting a set of simple lists and no arguments :-)

Subject: RE: Trad Irish songs, rebel & other... help
From: Tannywheeler
Date: 30 Jun 10 - 11:07 AM

The Mary Ellen Carter is Canadian, actually. In case you'd like to vary your program with more human-reality songs: On the Clancy Bros/Tommy Makem 1st album (The Rising of the Moon) you will find a fine lullaby--"The October Winds". Try to find an original, original copy--unaccompanied. Also, "Nell Flaherty's Drake" is a fine tongue-in-cheek code song, &, possibly on that same album, Makem does a wonderful actual-results-of-war song, "The Wind That Shakes The Barley". Have fun.   Tw

Subject: RE: Trad Irish songs, rebel & other... help
From: GUEST,BBS
Date: 30 Jun 10 - 02:17 PM

I know "The Mary Ellen Carter" is Canadian... but Stan Rogers wrote great sea songs. That's why it's in my set.

I will look for the other suggestions as well. Thanks.

Subject: RE: Trad Irish songs, rebel & other... help
From: Clontarf83
Date: 30 Jun 10 - 02:24 PM

my suggestion is that you should wander from the beaten path---the songs you quote are generally played endlessly in plastic paddy pubs--almost like listening to a vuvuzela at this point.

here are some comparatively less travelled sources I can think of off the top of my head

-Al O'Donnell
-The Johnstons
-Sweeney's Men
-Dubliners Celebration CD--lots of good songs--stay away from the early Dubliners stuff--the mine is exhausted
-Colm O'Lochlainn Songbooks
-Dolores Keane
-Mary Black/Black family

Subject: RE: Trad Irish songs, rebel & other... help
From: Jack Campin
Date: 30 Jun 10 - 02:38 PM

Or look at Cathal McConnell's recent "Hidden Fermanagh" books. A very long way from plastic-paddy-land.

Subject: RE: Trad Irish songs, rebel & other... help
From: Amergin
Date: 30 Jun 10 - 03:17 PM

The Battlefield Band is a good one...Andy M. Stewart and Silly Wizard....Christy Moore...There are also several Scottish rebel bands too...

But if you want a great rebel song try Brian Warfield's Joe McDonnell.

Subject: Lyr Add: THE LILT OF A GRANDMOTHER'S SONG
From: Bert
Date: 30 Jun 10 - 10:22 PM

The Dear Old Shannon Shore
Noreen Bawn
Roddy McCorley
Bold Robert Emmett


My Great Grandmother, Mary Ann Cronin, used to sing Irish Rebel songs to my Dad when he was a boy and I wrote this song about that relationship..............

THE LILT OF A GRANDMOTHER'S SONG

In the lilt of a Grandmother's song
That's where I learned right from wrong
there were maidens who sighed
there were martyrs who died
In the lilt of a Grandmother's song

With her silvery hair in her old rocking chair
she sang of a spinning wheel turning
when her son left the shore
to return nevermore
she sang of a fond Mother's yearning

In the lilt ...

She sang me to sleep with songs of the deep
St. Brendan who sailed the world over
of pretty colleens
and the smell of poteen
gold sovereigns and a wild rover

In the lilt ...

From the old Shannon shore to the Mountains of Mourne
songs of laughter and kissing the Blarney
of the Orange and Green
and old Skibbereen
and the hills and the lakes of Killarney

In the lilt ...

Subject: RE: Trad Irish songs, rebel & other... help
From: Rapparee
Date: 30 Jun 10 - 10:32 PM

Kevin Barry
Tipparary So Far Away
Green in the Green
Johnson's Motor Car
The West's Awake
Bold Rapparree
Come Out Ye Black And Tans

Subject: RE: Trad Irish songs, rebel & other... help
From: Rapparee
Date: 30 Jun 10 - 10:38 PM

Kerry Recruit
Auld Orange Flute
Legion of the Rearguard
Valley of Knockanure
Slieve nBan
Killikrankie
Ye Jacobites By Name
Culloden
I Will Go, I Will Go