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Does Religion Deny Music to Children?
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Subject: RE: Religion denies music to children? From: Mrrzy Date: 02 Jul 10 - 02:10 PM Joe, I think it's wrong to tolerate rather than correct the wrong. It does a disservice to the world. |
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Subject: RE: Religion denies music to children? From: Howard Jones Date: 02 Jul 10 - 02:06 PM Joe, I didn't detect any bigotry by the OP. Perhaps the thread title could have been worded better, but both it and the text briefly summarise the BBC News article, without further comment. It's not easy to get over the gist of a thread in the few words allowed, and personally I think the use of the word "religion" is more neutral than specifically referring to Muslims, which could be construed as bigoted. The difference between religious and non-religious views is that the latter may be changed by discussion or education, whereas the former are matters of faith and not open to argument. Religion, whilst undoubtedly a force for good, has also all too often done considerable harm for reasons which to outsiders, or with the benefit of historical perspective, seem unjustifiable. However, I agree that being gratuitously rude or offensive is unhelpful and unnecessary. |
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Subject: RE: Religion denies music to children? From: Keith A of Hertford Date: 02 Jul 10 - 02:05 PM Joe, your title would likely have its end chopped off, and I did not want to put Islam or moslem into the title because that might give the wrong impression. Remember, I am a Chritian, or try to be, and some Christian churches are anti music and dance. In a follow up to the report broadcast tonight, the author spoke of an enormous response, including an e mail from a teacher in an "extreme" Christian school that did not encourage music. |
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Subject: RE: Religion denies music to children? From: GUEST,Jonny Sunshine Date: 02 Jul 10 - 02:02 PM To be fair to the OP, the thread title has a question mark, it's turning a statement into a question. And a balanced answer, taking into account all of the available evidence, is probably along the lines of: "some parents deny some or all musical activities some or all of the time to their own children for reasons that may be due to particular contested interpretations of their religion". |
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Subject: RE: Religion denies music to children? From: frogprince Date: 02 Jul 10 - 01:59 PM Ebbie, and mousethief; my "repressive" was a bad word choice in that context. I certainly have nothing against acapella singing, and I don't consider it objectionable if a tradition sings without instruments; I personally just don't see the rational of those who think that God doesn't want them to play instruments in church . I haven't had experience with Eastern Orthodox or Amish worship; I stand corrected as to the Orthodox, and while I had known that the Amish don't use instruments, I had been thinking in terms of the evangelical/fundamental protestant groups I have more acquantance with. |
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Subject: RE: Religion denies music to children? From: mousethief Date: 02 Jul 10 - 01:50 PM What would be wrong with expecting that both religious and non-religious people practice tolerance? Depends. Is wasting one's breath "wrong"? |
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Subject: RE: Religion denies music to children? From: Crow Sister (off with the fairies) Date: 02 Jul 10 - 01:49 PM "The question is, should schools insist on teaching music according to the National Curriculum, or should they show some sensitivity and flexibility where parents object on religious grounds?" I think that there need to be some basic but VERY FIRM guidelines about what kind of 'flexibility' a school can indulge on behalf of any specialist group. As said previously, what we need to prioritise first and foremost is children's rights and welfare, and ensure that schools are not granted so much 'flexibility' that they can basically get away with willfully ignoring genuine cases of what effectively constitute culturally sanctioned child abuse. My trouble with this case in partiular, is not that religious parents are removing children from music class, but that school boards simply are too spineless to openly deal with any such issues involving other cultures. And instead prefer to 'turn a blind eye' because quite simply, it causes them less hassle. This amounts to an abandonment of their obligations to the children that they are responsible for. |
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Subject: RE: Religion denies music to children? From: Joe Offer Date: 02 Jul 10 - 01:41 PM Ah, another fine example of tolerance and goodwill:
Then let's look at some other comments:
Some idiot Jesuit Raving religious cranks, all of them - pity the children. This religion IS denying that music to those children - well, yes, maybe ten percent of the people in that religious denomination have reservations about some aspect of music - maybe they just think that Englebert Humperdinck recordings are mind-numbing, but they have expressed reservations about music, in one way or another. Religion is really not good for children, of which this is just another example. Notice the sweeping nature of most of the above statements. I suppose there's truth in all the statements - but the truth applies to a relatively small percentage of religious people. It's like condemning the human race because ten percent of humans are idiots. I suppose it's not fair to say that "Mudcatters" are bigoted against religion. It's just that when the subject of religion comes up, the voices of bigotry always seem to be the loudest. It's a funny thing, though - just when religious people are starting to learn to be polite about non-religious people, the non-religious people turn the tables and jump on the bigotry bandwagon. What would be wrong with expecting that both religious and non-religious people practice tolerance? -Joe- |
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Subject: RE: Religion denies music to children? From: Howard Jones Date: 02 Jul 10 - 01:35 PM The estimate that it will affect about 10% of the Muslim community comes from the British Council of Muslims. However, whilst this particular example is about Islam, as the responses on this thread have shown other religions (or at least some of their adherents) have similar views. The question is, should schools insist on teaching music according to the National Curriculum, or should they show some sensitivity and flexibility where parents object on religious grounds? |
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Subject: RE: Religion denies music to children? From: mousethief Date: 02 Jul 10 - 01:33 PM In my own direct experience, the most repressive attitude toward music itself that I've encountered involved a small denomination that allows singing, but with no instruments; I consider that to be regretable, and without any justification from either the Bible or any coherent Christian tradition, Incorrect. The Eastern Orthodox Church does not use instruments in its worship. It is a very large swath of Christianity, and as coherent as any. Changing the subject slightly: I think, buddhuu, the problem with your analogy is that denying ALL music and denying rock-and-roll and/or jazz to one's constituents aren't even on the same level. They're not even in the same ballpark. They're not even playing the same sport. I may not want my child to listen to rap songs that glorify slapping one's bitch ho and shooting police officers, but that's not even LIKE the same thing as not wanting her to experience music at all. |
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Subject: RE: Religion denies music to children? From: GUEST,Steamin' Willie Date: 02 Jul 10 - 01:33 PM You know, child abuse takes many forms, and parents inflicting paranoid superstition based on their own ignorance and lack of intelligence is still child abuse no matter what tree hugging inclusive diversity positive bollox you wrap it in. Sadly, it is with us. My views on religion are not what you call passive, but I have to accept that it is still here, despite science, the internet and soap operas. We all seem to need an imaginary friend, and parents are no exception. But what chance do the kids have? Being brought up to believe women are inferior, (you can rape virgins, count 'em if you die taking others with you!) that gay dudes should be killed, that anybody poking fun at you and your imaginary spiritual leader should be killed, that Jews should be killed...... Actually, I don't think lack of music is the most important thing kids need protecting from, it's their own family. But as a tax payer, I don't want to take a few million kids into care either. Perhaps just a simple law that parents can't interfere with the curriculum and during school hours, no. You don't have certain rights over your child during school time. Might work for feral chavs too. Funny that feral scum and religious idiots share a trait... Could only work if we drop the pathetic faith schools though and insist that state education is purely secular. Oh, and keeping your child from school invites fines, bailiffs, and sadly, removal of your child if you don't know how to behave in a civilised society. I am not being anti Islam here by the way, God botherers come in many guises, many of them Christian. |
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Subject: RE: Religion denies music to children? From: Arthur_itus Date: 02 Jul 10 - 01:27 PM >> I don't agree that singing without instruments is repressive|<< Oh yes it is |
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Subject: RE: Religion denies music to children? From: Ebbie Date: 02 Jul 10 - 01:07 PM "...the most repressive attitude toward music itself that I've encountered involved a small denomination that allows singing, but with no instruments;" As a person who grew up in such an environment, FP, I don't agree that singing without instruments is repressive. Today I most definitely prefer instruments for most songs but in those days I distinctly remember the awed chills down my spine that the unadorned voices caused me. I might contend that singing without instruments helps the 'ear'. The organ may have been designed to help people stay on key. |
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Subject: RE: Religion denies music to children? From: Keith A of Hertford Date: 02 Jul 10 - 12:53 PM Those children were just in one small school Johnny. |
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Subject: RE: Religion denies music to children? From: GUEST,Jonny Sunshine Date: 02 Jul 10 - 12:41 PM I'm a little confused. Apparently "hundreds" of children are being withdrawn, but closer reading of this and two other articles reveals, amidst all the speculation, two actual substantiated facts: 20 children were withdrawn from rehearsals for a Christmas musical, and one child has been permanently removed from a scheme to learn violin or cello, for reasons unspecified. If this is indeed an issue for up to 10% of Muslim families, then concrete evidence is rather thinner on the ground than might be expected. |
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Subject: RE: Religion denies music to children? From: Mrrzy Date: 02 Jul 10 - 12:37 PM This religion IS denying that music to those children, so what is the issue with this title? It is completely accurate. Religion is really not good for children, of which this is just another example. |
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Subject: RE: Religion denies music to children? From: frogprince Date: 02 Jul 10 - 10:33 AM I've had a lot of years of experience with a lot of very conservative American churchs. In my own direct experience, the most repressive attitude toward music itself that I've encountered involved a small denomination that allows singing, but with no instruments; I consider that to be regretable, and without any justification from either the Bible or any coherent Christian tradition, but at least they have a tradition of singing. There is still a minority, unfortunately not tiny, opposed to dancing. I'm sure there are "pockets" of American Christians more repressive regarding music that I haven't encountered, But the vast majority of even hidebound fundamentalists have at least rich tradions of music tailored to express their faith; the downside is that a lot of the lyric content serves as some of the most effective endoctrination of their young people. |
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Subject: RE: Religion denies music to children? From: Howard Jones Date: 02 Jul 10 - 10:26 AM I think in a free(ish) society where people are allowed to hold different beliefs then there should be a certain degree of flexibility. For some people, religious beliefs are important, perhaps the most important thing in their lives, and we have to balance that against the needs of society as a whole. Which is not to say that society should always bow to pressure, but it should also not be too rigid. It is sad, deplorable even, that children are being denied access to music, but I don't believe it falls into the same category as, for example, denying them blood transfusions. |
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Subject: RE: Religion denies music to children? From: Bonzo3legs Date: 02 Jul 10 - 10:12 AM Did Jerry Lee Lewis have problems with the raving bigots in his church I wonder?? |
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Subject: RE: Religion denies music to children? From: Arthur_itus Date: 02 Jul 10 - 09:52 AM To me, it seems quite clear. There is a curriculum. If parents of any faith, do not want to abide by the curriculum, then they should find another school that suits them. What the school should NOT do, is bow down to such pressure. There are times, when I have wanted to take my daughter out of certain lessons, but have resisted doing so. The school is bigger than any indidual, or group that attends it. |
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Subject: RE: Religion denies music to children? From: Deckman Date: 02 Jul 10 - 09:29 AM There is nothing new about this issue. Back in the 1940's (yes, I'm old) I was sent off for the summer to live with a Pentecostal grandfather. I had just started piano lessons, and the preacher of the church gave me permission to practice my scales and lessons on the church piano. After just two days, the preacher's wife sent me home and said I could never play on the piano again. My SIN was that I was playing "TOO FAST" for the "HOUSE OF THE LORD." There's nothing new about this issue ... bob(deckman)nelson |
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Subject: RE: Religion denies music to children? From: Bonzo3legs Date: 02 Jul 10 - 09:13 AM "Are you pulling me up on language usage Bonzo? I do make *lots* of errors when writing here, but that wasn't one.." Not at all, it's just a silly buzz word which has become totally over used - usually with "issue" tagged on the end, which to me means something which is issued like a magazine or in legal matters - children. So there you go!! |
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Subject: RE: Religion denies music to children? From: buddhuu Date: 02 Jul 10 - 08:49 AM Howard Jones: "I find it sad that so many interpretations of religion (and by no means only Islam) seem to object to anything which might give people pleasure. It is as if they are so concerned with the next life that they forget to make the most of this life. If you believe that this life is a gift from God, it seems strange to me not to make the most of what it offers, including music." Indeed. And to those of us who believe that there is no god, and that this life is all you get, it seems even stranger not to make the most of it... |
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Subject: RE: Religion denies music to children? From: Crow Sister (off with the fairies) Date: 02 Jul 10 - 08:23 AM "Mmmm, I always thought that you addressed envelopes!!!" Are you pulling me up on language usage Bonzo? I do make *lots* of errors when writing here, but that wasn't one.. Address, verb: 5 (formal) to think about a problem or a situation and decide how you are going to deal with it. Address something: Your essay does not address the real issues. Address yourself to something: We must address ourselves to the problem of traffic pollution. |
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Subject: RE: Religion denies music to children? From: Crow Sister (off with the fairies) Date: 02 Jul 10 - 08:07 AM To touch on the thread title debacle briefly, I think in any potentially contentious discussion such as this one, we aught to focus attention principally on a) the rights of children and b) on the obligation of public bodies to ensure that those rights are protected. "Religion" receiving exclusive attention as the 'bad boy' *focal point* in any such discussion, can obfuscate more key matters IMO. |
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Subject: RE: Religion denies music to children? From: Howard Jones Date: 02 Jul 10 - 08:04 AM This is from Yusuf Islam's website: At that time, his son, Muhammad, presented him with a life altering dilemma. He bashfully showed his father a proud new possession: a guitar! Yusuf was forced to reflect again on the issue of music and instruments. After years of inquiry and soul searching, Yusuf's doubts about the use of music within Islamic history and culture had lessened. He reached the conclusion that the evidence for banning instruments failed to meet Islamic Law's requirements for unquestioning acceptance. He wrote an article that explained his understanding of how the evidence allowed for different views on this issue. The Qur'an does not ever actually mention the word "music" or "instruments." It was clear to him that the objective of branding music as makruh (disliked) or haram (forbidden) was based on juristic interpretation, probably in the desire to avoid frivolous and immoral songs, which were very much a reflection of what has universally come to be known as "sex, drugs and rock 'n' roll." Ironically, elsewhere on the website he tells how he was first drawn to Islam by hearing music in Marrakesh. When he enquired, he was told, "It is music for God". I find it sad that so many interpretations of religion (and by no means only Islam) seem to object to anything which might give people pleasure. It is as if they are so concerned with the next life that they forget to make the most of this life. If you believe that this life is a gift from God, it seems strange to me not to make the most of what it offers, including music. |
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Subject: RE: Religion denies music to children? From: Bonzo3legs Date: 02 Jul 10 - 07:48 AM Mmmm, I always thought that you addressed envelopes!!! |
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Subject: RE: Religion denies music to children? From: Crow Sister (off with the fairies) Date: 02 Jul 10 - 06:43 AM On the face of it this seems like a pretty petty case of school boards looking the other way where culture's clash with children's rights to education and indeed protection, but there have been (and as far as I'm aware continue to be) much more serious ones than this. Most usually involving girl children. With the debacle over the thread title aside, I'm cautious to indulge nervous school board's tendency to avoid properly addressing such matters. |
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Subject: RE: Religion denies music to children? From: buddhuu Date: 02 Jul 10 - 06:29 AM "You make it sound as if I was making it up." I disagree. I'd been hoping to limit my contribution to comment on the situation reported, but you seem to be objecting to (while explicitly accepting) fair criticism of your original post. The substance of your original post was poorly presented and misleading. It was factually inaccurate in a way that could be seen as sensationalist. With the exception of Lox's line, The self styled impartial fact providing objective observer nails his colours to the mast with ever more narrow minded and highly opinionated bombast, I consider that all criticism has been reasonable and measured. None of it makes it sound as if you were making it up, just that your judgment at the time of composing the OP left room for improvement. |
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Subject: RE: Religion denies music to children? From: Keith A of Hertford Date: 02 Jul 10 - 06:07 AM Fair enough. I accept that criticism. I could have posted more detail, but the link was there to the full story. You make it sound as if I was making it up. |
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Subject: RE: Religion denies music to children? From: GUEST,^&* Date: 02 Jul 10 - 05:54 AM The article itself is quite measured. Keith's statement that "hundreds (of pupils) have been withdrawn in London schools" is, at best, disingenuous. It's an ESTIMATE of what MIGHT be the impact of PERSONAL interpretation by SOME Muslims. His "Religion denies music to children" thread title is pointlessly provocative. |
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Subject: RE: Religion denies music to children? From: Keith A of Hertford Date: 02 Jul 10 - 05:43 AM Amergin, it is a current, (yesterday) news story that I thought would be of interest to folks here. BBC is not usually accused of targetting ethnic groups. It is their story. Give me a break. |
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Subject: RE: Religion denies music to children. From: bubblyrat Date: 02 Jul 10 - 05:36 AM Seems a bit strange to me,given the musical proclivities of such Muslim luminaries as Cat Stevens. Still, it's a funny old,imperfect world in which we live. Another hundred years,and the current generation of foreign malcontents will have died out,or integrated ,or voluntarily returned whence they came ; integration would be fine by me,but obviously there are obstacles to be overcome.Meanwhile,it's the poor,confused,little children who suffer. |
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Subject: RE: Religion denies music to children? From: Bonzo3legs Date: 02 Jul 10 - 05:32 AM Raving religious cranks, all of them - pity the children. |
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Subject: RE: Religion denies music to children. From: Amergin Date: 02 Jul 10 - 05:23 AM Well considering your topic specifically targets a certain minority group, I would agree with Lox on this one...and like Buddhu says certain sects of the Christian and Jewish cults detest music for the same reason.....so where is the discussion about them taking their kids out of school? |
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Subject: RE: Religion denies music to children. From: scouse Date: 02 Jul 10 - 05:21 AM Some idiot Jesuit said I think, "Give me the child till he's seven and I will give you the Man." Religious indoctrination has a lot to answer for. Without Music and rhythm there is no life! As Aye, Phil. |
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Subject: RE: Religion denies music to children. From: Keith A of Hertford Date: 02 Jul 10 - 05:20 AM I do not think I deserved your rant against me Lox. Thread titles have to be very short but convey the subject of the thread. What title would you have given it? I would be happy to see it changed. I did not express a personal opinion or any views at all, so how can you justify, "nails his colours to the mast with ever more narrow minded and highly opinionated bombast" ? |
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Subject: RE: Religion denies music to children. From: GUEST,Ed Date: 02 Jul 10 - 05:12 AM Excellently put, buddhuu. 'Hit', 'Nail' and 'Head' come to mind. |
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Subject: RE: Religion denies music to children. From: GUEST,Lox Date: 02 Jul 10 - 05:11 AM "This MAY become an issue in British schools." "It is ESTIMATED that about -- 10% -- of British Moslems will have ISSUES with music for their children" "because of THEIR INTERPRETATION of Islamic teaching" And keith says: "Religion denies music to children." The self styled impartial fact providing objective observer nails his colours to the mast with ever more narrow minded and highly opinionated bombast. The subject of thius thread is not music but fundamentalist interpretation of religious scripture. It should be in the BS section. |
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Subject: RE: Religion denies music to children. From: buddhuu Date: 02 Jul 10 - 04:59 AM Tragic, but different people see things in different ways. On the whole, I'm with Dawkins that there is no such thing as a Christian/Muslim/Jewish/Hindu etc child. The kids are fine until the adults start the mindwarp on them. I wouldn't like to see this get into more anti-Muslim sh*t. Some Christians and Jews have had problems with music and dancing - especially jazz and rock and roll. To me, most religions seem equally dishonest, arrogant and frankly offensive to one or another degree. In fact, Sikhism is the only religion to which I am regularly exposed that seems to retain some core values that have not been thoroughly twisted to suit the agendas of an elite. It is hard to know what can be done. It is like so many other ways that one may disapprove of how people raise their kids. You can't always convince them that you know better. |
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Subject: Religion denies music to children. From: Keith A of Hertford Date: 02 Jul 10 - 04:44 AM This may become an issue in British schools. Music is a compulsory component of the curriculum, but some Moslem families are withdrawing their children because of their interpretation of Islamic teaching. It is estimated that about 10% of British Moslems will have issues with music for their children, and hundreds have been withdrawn in London schools. http://news.bbc.co.uk/local/london/hi/people_and_places/religion_and_ethics/newsid_8780000/8780567.stm
Addendum. This thread hasn't talked about music for a number of days, so I think it's time to move it down to the non-music section. -Joe Offer- |
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