The Concept of FREED Folkmusic

Subject: RE: The Concept of FREED Folkmusic
From: Smokey.
Date: 26 Aug 10 - 08:22 PM

I'm sure they will.

I wish you luck.

Subject: RE: The Concept of FREED Folkmusic
From: olddude
Date: 26 Aug 10 - 08:58 PM

Well we have performers in the park every Saturday during the summer. I have done dozens of them ... all for free .. and there are hundreds of people there ... loads of fun .. I have also asked for donations to charity and raised quite a bit of cash for them also ..

it is pretty common around my neck of the woods. Likewise there are many paid venues also. Most will do both

Subject: RE: The Concept of FREED Folkmusic
From: *#1 PEASANT*
Date: 26 Aug 10 - 09:03 PM

If everyone works at it it will happen.

People turn up play music and others come and listen, others come and help and listen

You know some of the best folk music was played by the poorest people. No electricity for amplification, no stages, no running water, hardly any food. It did not pay the bills but it sustained in other ways.

Like a free slice of ice cold ripe watermellon on a hot day.

I always bring at least one to every festival I go to with the artcars.

Booths selling food and drink but there I am slicing it off with a big knife and handing it out for free.

I have never ever seen so many very happy people.

Like a piece of free watermelon slice it off for free and they will return, the music will grow and humanity will be uplifted.

Conrad

Subject: RE: The Concept of FREED Folkmusic
From: Bobert
Date: 26 Aug 10 - 09:28 PM

Greed has nothing to do with this...

Hey, ain't like folkies pull in big dough for performing... Most gigs pay around $200 to $250... Now, ya' take that and subtract the expenses, taxes, wear and tear on yer car, and ya' might net half that for getting dressed up, loadin' yer gear, driving "x" number of miles, unloadin' yer gear, settin' up yer gear, performin', relaoding yer gear in the car, drivin' "x" number of miles home, unloadin' yer gear and settling down after all that...

That is reality and after you've done that a couple hundred or couple thousand times then to be called greedy for doing it is downright insulting... It's as bad as the guy bookin' you knowing exactly what calibre you are going to bring into his club and then not paying you because it rained and the turnout was lousy...

It's cheap!!!

That's exactly what it is!!!

Tell ya what, Conrad... Call yer doctor next time yer sick and ask him to work for free... Or the guy who works on yer car...

Get real and quit with this "greedy" bullshit...

If a bunch of inexperienced musican wantabees want to get together, fine... Do it... But don't try to bully people who have put in the time to be professionals to do yer freebees...

B~

Subject: RE: The Concept of FREED Folkmusic
From: Don Firth
Date: 26 Aug 10 - 10:00 PM

"So I guess it is because professional musicians are greedy and WON'T make music part of their lifestyle preferring instead to live life as wandering juke boxes.

"I say we can do without them in that case."

You're not getting it, Conrad. First of all, one cannot become a professional musician unless the music they play is a major part of their "lifestyle." It's just simply impossible for it to be otherwise. And as far as your charge of selfishness and greed is concerned, do you whine about having to pay a doctor? Or a dentist? Or the grocery store when you buy a bagful of food? Or the restaurant when you go out to eat? Or that you have to pay for the gasoline that you put in your car? How about the rent or the payments on your house?

Do you have a television set? Or a radio? Did you buy them, or did you just salvage them from a junkyard and fix them up yourself? Don't you have to pay for the electricity to run them? And your lights? Utilities in general, such as water and sewage. Don't you have to pay either a fee or taxes to have your garbage hauled away? Or do you just glue it to the hood of somebody's car? How about clothes?

Then why should a professional musician, someone who may very well have spent a great deal of their own money on school and lessons and put in the time and effort to learn to play an instrument, or sing—or both, in the case of most singers of folk songs, has spent additional time and effort to learn songs and sing them well, and continue to learn more and more songs throughout their careers NOT be paid for plying their trade—just like everybody else?

Why is it that when they feel they should be paid for exercising their profession, you consider them "narrow, selfish, and greedy?"

And do without them? I don't think so!

Professional musicians—singers of folk songs—do a great deal to promote the kind of music they perform. For several reasons. One is that it is simply good business. Several folk singers, including me, sang at the United Nations Pavilion every Sunday afternoon over the duration of the Seattle World's Fair in 1962. We sang for free! To thousands of fairgoers. Several people who sang there, including me, got hired to sing elsewhere. Judy Flenniken and I were hired to sing at the Port Angeles Centennial celebration, and Nancy Quensé, Stan James, and I were hired to sing at the Port Townsend Arts Festival—for which we got paid quite well. I got several paid gigs from people who heard me at the World's Fair. And so did most of the other singers. In this case, exposure was good for us.

But you can't spend "exposure" at the grocery store. Most professionals do a lot of freebies, yes. But if a professional performer doesn't get hired for money, they'll soon have to hang up their guitar or banjo or Irish harp, and get a job pumping gas or put on a paper hat and ask people "Do you want fries with that?"

My first exposure to folk music was from professional singers of folk songs. When I was in my mid-teens, I heard Burl Ives's program "The Wayfaring Stranger" on the radio, where he talked about American history and sang songs about it. In one afternoon's program, I learned more about the building of the Erie Canal than I ever learned in any history class. And heard songs like "I Got a Mule and Her Name is Sal" and "When the E-ri-e was a-risin'" that afternoon. And a friend of mine had one of Richard Dyer-Bennet's albums. In the very late Forties and very early Fifties, I heard The Weavers on the radio and on juke boxes. And then, Walt Robertson's concert in The Chalet restaurant that I describe above.

This was in the very early 1950s, so I got turned on early. But how many people first became interested in folk music by listening to Harry Belafonte, The Gateway Singers, The Kingston Trio, Peter Paul and Mary, et al?

Professional musicians, Conrad! Professional musicians who performed folk songs and ballads! THEY were the ones who ignited the folk music revival in the first place and inspired many others to follow in their footsteps, or at the very least, learn to sing folksongs themselves for their own enjoyment.

I do not begrudge Pete Seeger or Walt Robertson or Joan Baez or Richard Dyer-Bennet or Guy Carawan or Judy Collins or any one of the dozens—hundreds—of other professional performers of folk music one nickel of their earnings. Not one nickel!

And Frank Hamilton, who is a regular contributor to this forum, is a first-rate professional singer and instrumentalist, AND he was a co-founder of the Old Town School of Folk Music in Chicago back in the mid-1950s. I don't know for certain, but it may very well still be going. Now, Conrad, I don't think one can do any more to promote folk music than that. And there, too, people like Frank Hamilton deserve everything they have earned through their performing and much more.

Frankly, Conrad, your bad-mouthing of professional musicians as being "selfish and greedy" strikes me, first, as just bloody ignorant, then going on from there, downright mean-spirited, just because you want to free-load by enjoying the service, but not wanting to "pay the laborer his due."

Don Firth

Subject: RE: The Concept of FREED Folkmusic
From: *#1 PEASANT*
Date: 26 Aug 10 - 11:06 PM

The guy who works on my old cars works for free.

Don there is no comparison. A doctor is a specialist a person who plays music as a part of their lifeway is an ordinary person going about their life. There are professionals and there are most other people. The professional is a distortion of the ordinary person who plays just to play. Professionals have a role but it should not be a major one and in public settings they should not be specialists. Lots of special events they can be specialists at. A worthy tradition- weddings wakes birthdays.....

I dont want to spend exposure I use exposure to broaden the audience. We do not need professional musicians to intrude into the public space. They just cause the costs to go way up and that limits participation.

Sort of like me and santa. I get paid for special events but santa stops at most houses each christmas and does not get paid at all he just does it because it is part of the lifeway of ordinary people.

I would not insist that everyone who helps santa be paid just because I get paid for private events. Same with pro musicians there is a role an ancient one. They played at the courts of the nobility however and not in the homes of the ordinary folk.

Again paying pro musicians even though they are not getting paid enough (really selfish argument as no one ever thinks they are getting paid enough) simply puts specialists and their fees ahead of the tradition.

Conrad

Subject: RE: The Concept of FREED Folkmusic
From: Padre
Date: 26 Aug 10 - 11:48 PM

Conrad, Come to Washington DC and see the Washington Folk Festival. There you'll find PROFESSIONAL folksingers doing two days of concerts, workshops, dancing, etc and NO ONE gets paid, not the performers, not the staff or volunteers. Then get back on your soapbox, if you dare.

Subject: RE: The Concept of FREED Folkmusic
From: Don Firth
Date: 27 Aug 10 - 02:30 AM

You obviously don't know many—or any—musicians, Conrad. Especially not professional musicians.

I have an old friend, a woman I went to high school with, who was an operatic soprano (she's retired now). She was not just "an ordinary person" for whom music was just a part of her life. It was her whole life. She sang in opera houses all over, and when she wasn't singing a role in some opera, she was doing recitals.

Another high school friend got a bit-part singing in a movie with Bing Crosby just a couple of years after he graduated. Then he headed for Broadway. His first big break was singing in "Damn Yankees," and he was understudy to the lead. When he wasn't singing on Broadway, or "Off Broadway," he sang in the lounges of big hotels all up and down the East Coast. Music was his whole life.

The choir director at a nearby church gives voice lessons during the week, sings with a group called "The Esoterics," that does concerts all over this area and I believe they have some CDs out. He is also a brilliant pianist and does occasional recitals. Music is his whole life.

These, and many others I know, are professional musicians. That's how they make their livings.

"Professionals have a role but it should not be a major one and in public settings they should not be specialists."

In what way should professional musicians and singers not have a major role? And how can they be in a public setting and not be a specialist? What do you mean by "specialist?"

Barbara Johansson specialized in opera and art songs. Frank Bouley sang Broadway show tunes and songs by Cole Porter, Irving Berlin, and others. Jim leads a church choir, sings a variety of different songs, frequently early music, with "The Esoterics," and plays classical music on the piano. These are all specialties.

I sing folk songs and ballads to the accompaniment of a classical guitar. That is a specialty.

And how are these people to live if they don't get paid? If Barbara isn't paid by the opera company she sings for or the audience she gives a recital for? Or if the Broadway show company doesn't pay Frank for his rehearsal time and time on stage, or if he's not paid by the hotels where he sings? Jim is paid by the church to lead the choir, and I don't know what arrangement "The Esoterics" have for paying their singers, but they do pay them. And when he does a piano recital, those who sponsor the recital pay him. Jim is versatile, but each of the things he's engaged in is a specialty.

And these are just a few of the professional musicians that I know. I know far more than these, and of course I know whole bunches of professional singers of folk songs, including some very well-known names. Considering the wide variety of music and song that is there for people to perform, those who sing folk songs and ballads such as Bob Nelson and I do—or as people like Joan Baez, Richard Dyer-Bennet, Peggy Seeger, Dave Van Ronk, and all the rest, are specializing in one particular area of the broad range of music available.

. . . paying pro musicians . . . simply puts specialists and their fees ahead of the tradition."

Conrad, I can guarantee you this:   if it were not for professional singers of folk songs constantly re-introducing folk songs and ballads to today's audiences, the tradition would be a very small, little known pigeon hole of music (speaking of "esoteric!") that most people would never know anything about. What with radio and television as the entertainment of most people, the tradition of providing an evening's entertainment by taking the fiddle down from the wall or picking up the banjo or guitar, even in those areas where people like Cecil Sharp and the Lomaxes found and collected songs, would have long since died out. And in most of these areas, it has.

So be thankful to both those who sing these songs because they enjoy singing them—and the professionals who also chose to sing these songs because they enjoy them—and whose need to keep performing (and being paid to do so) so they can keep singing them is one of the major factors in keeping folk music alive and reasonably well.

By the way, here's a news flash. I hate to be the one to tell you this, but Santa Claus does not exist.

Don Firth

Subject: RE: The Concept of FREED Folkmusic
From: *#1 PEASANT*
Date: 27 Aug 10 - 09:11 AM

I know the festival very very well. One of the best things in the world and motivation for my work in this area. One of the ways I got into folk music. I could afford to attend. Now I bring my artcar gourney and horn hats to join in the fun. And when I entertain kids there I never ever contemplate the monetary value of what I do. Wouldn't occur to me

Subject: RE: The Concept of FREED Folkmusic
From: *#1 PEASANT*
Date: 27 Aug 10 - 09:20 AM

Of course you say that santa doesnt exist- he doesnt get paid so he must not have value.

I have associated with folk musicians of many kinds most of my life. England Germany and united states.

In many instances I have never found such a closed society. One set of politics, one set of lifestyle values (or general lack thereof) and very very set in their ways. I have recently lost a good group of folk musician friends for simply defending my own particular values and philosophies. I have brought local musicians hundreds of paying customers only to find them totally disrespect the efforts. I have worked successfully to promote local bands with artcars and personal appearances only to have that successful work go unappreciated. I have worked with professional musicians at festivals where I was there out in the hot sun all day managing stages then asked where the musicians went after their short performances to find them rather than at the festival with all of us spending the rest of the day at the hotel pool with each other. I can go on and on and on......

Yes exceptions but few.

Professional musicians in general want to be carried along by volunteers but want that pay check or no music comes out.

Remember they can do what they want. But they really are not as important as they think they are and we could do much better putting the funds to other uses.

But remember I say the same for the local port o pot man who cant seem to donate his services for one weekend a year, same for all the people living off of the folk world causing it to be limited.

Conrad

Subject: RE: The Concept of FREED Folkmusic
From: Rob Naylor
Date: 27 Aug 10 - 10:47 AM

Peasant: In many instances I have never found such a closed society. One set of politics, one set of lifestyle values (or general lack thereof) and very very set in their ways. I have recently lost a good group of folk musician friends for simply defending my own particular values and philosophies.

You seem to have a real chip on your shoulder here. I'm a newcomer to the "folk environment". I've always listened to some folk-rock and "folky-ish" music but it's only in the last year, a year after I started learning (electric) guitar and at about the time I got my first acoustic guitar, that I've really got "into" folk music at the roots level.

And, as I said above, I've *never* had any indication of a requirement to adopt a particular lifestyle, or to conform to any sort of politics. Or had anyone impose on me restrictions on what I could sing or play. I can imagine that if I sang a viciously racist song, or tried to hi-jack a session to push my political views, that wouldn't go down well. I said "viciously racist" because at last night's sessions some of the "trad" songs performed were somewhat anti-Freanch, or anti-Portuguese

Subject: RE: The Concept of FREED Folkmusic
From: *#1 PEASANT*
Date: 27 Aug 10 - 10:58 AM

As you note you have just begun. It will of course depend on the community. But you should know that the folk world is jingoistically liberal, alt lifeways, socialist and tightly knit making it difficult for people with other views to come in from the outside. This is particularly true for storytellers. I can tell one of the big leaders wondrous stories for hours with approvial but they still want me to sit at their feet an evening a month before you get any where near a stage. Always scares them to run into tellers at the professional level who just happen to get in through the back door of a venue. I came to learn that the best venues are not formal stages but people in line for the restroom who really need a few good short stories. Grand applause all the time.

No I dont push my views. Sometimes I state them or politely disagree.
Then I'm generally locked out.

No chip just bruises and disapointment in exchange for my investments and promotions.

Conrad

Subject: RE: The Concept of FREED Folkmusic
From: Rob Naylor
Date: 27 Aug 10 - 11:05 AM

Sorry, only PART of my post posted there. No idea why. Here it is in full:

Peasant: In many instances I have never found such a closed society. One set of politics, one set of lifestyle values (or general lack thereof) and very very set in their ways. I have recently lost a good group of folk musician friends for simply defending my own particular values and philosophies.

You seem to have a real chip on your shoulder here. I'm a newcomer to the "folk environment". I've always listened to some folk-rock and "folky-ish" music but it's only in the last year, a year after I started learning (electric) guitar and at about the time I got my first acoustic guitar, that I've really got "into" folk music at the roots level.

And, as I said above, I've *never* had any indication of a requirement to adopt a particular lifestyle, or to conform to any sort of politics. Or had anyone impose on me restrictions on what I could sing or play.

I can imagine that if I sang a viciously racist song, or tried to hi-jack a session to push my political views, that wouldn't go down well, but I don't think I'd be ostracised from a group for having a different political viewpoint to others, unless it was so extreme that the vast majority of mainstrem society would be repelled by it. I suspect the reasons that you lost your friends are a bit more complex than the "simple" one you stated.

Peasant: I have worked with professional musicians at festivals where I was there out in the hot sun all day managing stages then asked where the musicians went after their short performances to find them rather than at the festival with all of us spending the rest of the day at the hotel pool with each other.

And I've been to festivals and events where the performers, even big names, have mingled with the crowd when they weren't on, listened to other artistes, had drinks with people, etc. In fact, that's almost guaranteed at "folky" events, and even normal with up-and-coming rock and indie bands. The last six paying gigs I've been to, the performers have been in the audience [for the other act(s)] and/or the bar at every one. I'm afraid it's this chip on your shoulder showing again. someone's pissed you off at sometime, so you seem to have tarred the whole folk world with the same brush.

I think that, before you continue to accuse others of being inflexible and having very fixed ideas, you should take a long hard look at yourself.

Oh, and if you're going to advertise web design services among your many areas of "expertise", do something about that absolute abortion of a web site.

Subject: RE: The Concept of FREED Folkmusic
From: Rob Naylor
Date: 27 Aug 10 - 11:18 AM

As for being "jingoistically liberal, I've not seen that.

There's a big difference between pushing an active socialist or liberal agenda and in trying to ensure that a *music and cultural* movement isn't taken over by an extreme organisation peddling hate, which is what has been happening in certain places in the UK.

If preventing a group like the BNP from taking over a non-political movement for political ends is "jingoistically liberal" then I'm afraid you have a strange definition of the phrase. There's no way I'm in any way a socialist, but I fully support any attempts to prevent the BNP from hijacking folk music for its own ends.

I don't actually know the politics of most of the people I play/ sing and listen with, but they drive everything from the latest model Mercedes to 20 year old Japanese hatchbacks, or nothing at all. The ones whose homes I'm aware of live everywhere from studio apartments in run-down tenements to 7 or 8 bedroom homes set in several acres of parkland. They do every kind of work from investment banker to office cleaner and all points in between. I imagine their politics are just as varied.

Subject: RE: The Concept of FREED Folkmusic
From: Crow Sister (off with the fairies)
Date: 27 Aug 10 - 11:34 AM

Thanks for this Howard, I googled it and it does look really rather good. Sounds like it would be well worth the drive up there. Great landscape too.



"Subject: RE: The Concept of FREED Folkmusic
From: Howard Jones - PM
Date: 25 Aug 10 - 04:18 AM

Crow Sister, I'm referring to Bradfield Traditional Music Weekend, held up in the hills above Sheffield. Traditional song and music sessions, a ceilidh and usually a couple of talks.

The next one is 15-17 July 2011. It will probably be announced here."

Subject: RE: The Concept of FREED Folkmusic
From: Will Fly
Date: 27 Aug 10 - 01:45 PM

Conrad, I get the distinct impression that, if you've experienced being shut out of a musical environment, then a lot of it may well be down to you and your attitudes. As others have said, you appear to have a bloody great chip on your shoulder. I've been making music for 45 years and I've never experienced such attitudes or treatment. I've no doubt they exist - it all boils down to how you cope and deal with them.

To be honest, if you ram the sorts of opinions that you've spouted on Mudcat down the throats of honest-to-god, working musicians - in the way that you have on Mdcat - then it's not wonder you've had a rough deal from time to time.

Think on that - think about how your views might be be received...

Subject: RE: The Concept of FREED Folkmusic
From: Will Fly
Date: 27 Aug 10 - 01:58 PM

Crow Sister - the Bradfield weekend is lovely - a small but packed weekend of music in the Peak district. I've bagged a room at the Royal in Dungworth for the whole 4 days and I'm looking forward to the sessions, the talks, the singing, the tunes, the whole atmosphere of a unique event. Well worth the travel up from Sussex...

Subject: RE: The Concept of FREED Folkmusic
From: Don Firth
Date: 27 Aug 10 - 03:41 PM

". . . then asked where the musicians went after their short performances to find them rather than at the festival with all of us spending the rest of the day at the hotel pool with each other. I can go on and on and on. . , ."

The first big folk festival I attended was the Berkeley Folk Festival in 1960. It began on a Wednesday at noon, and continued over the Memorial Day weekend. Two-hour workshops began at ten a.m., there was an hour lunch break, then workshops resumed at one p.m., followed by another at three. After each workshop, there was time to mingle with the singers and others on the panels and ask further questions, or simply chat a bit. From five to about seven-thirty, there was a dinner break, and the evening was given over to concerts by the featured performers. Professional singers of folk songs.

The roster consisted of Peggy Seeger, Ewan MacColl, John Lomax Jr., The New Lost City Ramblers, Sandy Paton (whom I had known in Seattle in the early 1950s), Merritt Herring, Sam Hinton, and Lightnin' Hopkins.

After one concert, I ran into Sandy Paton after his evening concert, and he invited me to a party. We were there for no more than fifteen minutes when Peggy Seeger and Ewan MacColl walked in. I had a great opportunity to swap a few songs with them and we talked a lot. As did others who were there. The following evening, I wound up at another after-concert party, and there was Lightnin' Hopkins jamming with several local blues musicians.

Subsequent Berkeley Folk Festival provided an opportunity to sit around in one of the lounges in a building on the U. C. campus and chat with Charles Seeger, patriarch of the Seeger family, Archie Green, a folklorist and ethnomusicologist, blues singer Mance Lipscomb, Jean Redpath, who was making her first appearances at the festival, and the internationally known duo, Marais and Miranda (a thoroughly charming couple!). These folks were interested in talking to people such as me and others like me, and they were quite accessible.

By the way, the entire cost to attend the festival was $15.00 for the whole thing, all the workshops and all the concerts, along with a big barbeque on the last day. No concessions at the festival. You could bring a sack lunch or go off-campus to any one of several nearby restaurants.

I conversed with Joan Baez a couple of times, once in Seattle and again in Berkeley. On two occasions I have chatted with Richard Dyer-Bennet. He was friendly and outgoing, and when he heard what I was interested in doing with my music, he was very helpful and encouraging.

One of the local record stores had arranged a record autographing party for Theodore Bikel the day following his concert in Seattle's brand-new opera house in 1962, during the World's Fair. Six singers, including me, came to the record store at the appointed time and found Bikel sitting in front of the counter by a large stack of his records. The proprietor of the store was apologizing profusely because the advertising he had tried to do didn't make it into the papers. Bikel seemed relieved. But he was more that happy to sit for a couple of hours and chat with us. And this was not only a professional singer of folk songs, but he was most recently famous for creating the role of Baron Von Trapp in "The Sound of Music" on Broadway, and who was active in acting in movies and television. He found sitting around and chatting casually with a group of folk music enthusiasts enjoyable and refreshing. He said, "After spending every evening of the week in the company of seven children and twenty nuns, it's a relief to talk to real people again!" Very informative. And very helpful and encouraging to all of us. One young woman folk singer who was there sang in several languages, as Bikel did. He asked her to send him a tape of her singing, and wrote his mailing address out for her.

My first encounter with a well-known folk singer was in 1954, when Pete Seeger gave a concert in Seattle. There was an after-concert party. Pete, who had been to Seattle a number of times before, wanted to meet some of the current batch of folk music enthusiasts, and I wound up sitting cross-legged on Carol Lee Waite's living room floor with Pete and three or four other Seattle singers until 4:00 in the morning, passing a guitar back and forth, with Pete showing us all kinds of good stuff! Pete's genuine enthusiasm for the music was very contagious!

In other categories of music, being a member of the Seattle Classic Guitar Society, I have met and talked with Andrés Segovia on two occasions, and with John Williams, Julian Bream, Pepe Romero, and flamenco guitarist Carlos Montoya (where I found he was using an Arcangel Fernandez flamenco guitar just like the one I got a couple of years before). Also, the guitar duo, Ida Presti and Alexandre Lagoya. Lagoya offered me a couple of pointers on my right hand position and finger action.

I detail these things not just to name-drop or brag about all the famous people I've met, but to illustrate just how open, available, and encouraging of new talent that most professional musicians are.

As for myself, whenever I've performed, either in concert, at folk festivals, or for that matter, in coffeehouses, I'm out there and available to talk with people, find out what they think, what they're interested in, and provide help and advise if I can. In coffeehouses, rather than disappearing into the back room, I stay out front, table-hop some, and chat with people. And Bob Nelson, with whom I've done hundreds of gigs, does the same thing. Most singers do!

One example out of many is the concert that Judy Flenniken and I did at Whitman College in Walla Walla, Washington. After our concert, we adjourned to a nearby lounge, where a number of students, particularly interested in doing music themselves, joined us. We spent as long chatting and swapping songs in the lounge as we had out on stage. Standard operating procedure with us.

By the way, the Whitman College student organization that hired us to do the concert, paid for us to fly from Seattle to Walla Walla and back again, booked and paid for hotel accomodations for us, an paid us $150 apiece.

Now, here's a little hint, Conrad:    I occasionally run into someone who couldn't find his own butt with both hands and a copy of Gray's Anatomy, but is hell-bent on telling me that I'm doing it all wrong, and then he proceeds to lecture me on how I should be doing it.

Conrad, I think Will Fly has put his finger on your problem:

"Conrad, I get the distinct impression that, if you've experienced being shut out of a musical environment, then a lot of it may well be down to you and your attitudes. As others have said, you appear to have a bloody great chip on your shoulder. I've been making music for 45 years and I've never experienced such attitudes or treatment. I've no doubt they exist - it all boils down to how you cope and deal with them."

You've got a real attitude, Conrad. I think you'll find the source of your problem if you take a good look in a mirror.

Don Firth

Subject: RE: The Concept of FREED Folkmusic
From: *#1 PEASANT*
Date: 27 Aug 10 - 06:40 PM

No attitude problem here and I dont force anything on anyone quite quiet infact. Lots of exceptions to every observation however getting back from comments about me to the point.

There is no need for professional musicians running up the costs of public music.

As you point out there are places for them to make their money and yes its never enough. Join the club.

Why wouldn't freed music prosper if everyone worked at it?

Conrad

Subject: RE: The Concept of FREED Folkmusic
From: Don Firth
Date: 27 Aug 10 - 10:12 PM

Professional musicians are not "running up the costs of public music." And what, exactly, do you mean by "public music?"

There are some simple, basic economics at work here, Conrad, that you don't seem to be aware of.

At concerts and such, the ticket prices are not set by the musicians. More often than not, the entrepreneur tells the musician what he or she will be paid, and it's then up to the musician to agree, or to turn the offer down and go somewhere else. The musician rarely gets the opportunity to set costs. The entrepreneur is the one who rents the venue, does the promotion, pays the musician, and IF there is any money left over after these expenses, he pockets it.   Which is only fair, considering that he or she took the risk, spent the time and effort making all the arrangements, and did all the necessary promotion, without which, the concert would never have taken place. Most of the entrepreneurs within my experience who are involved in folk music are more interested in hearing the singers than they are in getting rich, and booking them for concerts, often house concerts, which is a good way to cut expenses and have the concert in a comfortable, fairly intimate situation. AND it makes the singer readily accessible to the audience.

You can hardly expect a singer to pay their own expenses to travel all the way from, say, Los Angeles, San Francisco, Boston, or New York to Baltimore and back again to sing for you for no fee and no compensation for their expenses.

No—I am wrong. That IS what you expect.

Folk festivals. I don't know what the arrangements were at the Berkeley Folk Festivals, but the Seattle Folklife Festival, held at the Seattle Center (former World's Fair grounds) every memorial day weekend, is free of charge to the public. And the singers and other musicians don't get paid. They volunteer to perform and / or participate in workshops, and they are almost always available after a performance or workshop to schmooze with anyone who wants to. I've participated in several of these festivals. And there are sometimes as many as 6,000 performers of one sort or another in attendance. And some performers are from out of town. One year, I met and heard one young woman there all the way from, I believe it was Edmonton, Alberta, Canada. And she paid her own traveling and living expenses. Several hundred thousand people attend—free of charge—over the long week end. And I know there are other folklife festivals all over the country very much like this one, so, frankly, I don't really know what you are whining about.

Look. I'll make you an offer you can't refuse. The next time I do a concert or sing at a festival, I'll let you know when and where it is. Then, you can hitchhike to Seattle—or better still, hop a freight train. That's a very traditional, folky thing to do. While you're here, there are lots of bridges in Seattle that you can sleep under. No charge, of course. And since Seattle is strong on recycling, finding free food in Dumpsters might not be all that reliable, but there is a whole bunch of churches in the city who have free lunch programs for the homeless and the indigent. So that takes care of food and lodging.

I'll make sure that you will be admitted to the concert without charge, and after the concert, I'll talk with you for as long as you like, then I'll make sure you get a ride to where you can hop a freight back to Baltimore.

Okay?

Don Firth

Subject: RE: The Concept of FREED Folkmusic
From: Rob Naylor
Date: 28 Aug 10 - 06:04 AM

Don: The entrepreneur is the one who rents the venue, does the promotion, pays the musician, and IF there is any money left over after these expenses, he pockets it.   Which is only fair, considering that he or she took the risk, spent the time and effort making all the arrangements, and did all the necessary promotion, without which, the concert would never have taken place. Most of the entrepreneurs within my experience who are involved in folk music are more interested in hearing the singers than they are in getting rich

Absolutely! About 18 months ago I put on Tiny Tin Lady in Tunbridge Wells, purely because I liked them and thought they deserved a bit of exposure in the south east.

They paid their own expenses down from Leeds (not insignificant) but I put them up overnight here (Gawd, for small girls they can drink!!!). They charged a very reasonable fee, and made no demands for a rider. I did put on a vegetarian spread for them back stage, though, and bought them a modest keg of Heineken to keep their whistles wet.

I got the venue at "Mate's Rates", ie about 30% below normal price, because I know the owners. I paid about £100 for publicity posters and flyers to hand out and worked hard to get 2 spots (one a decent sized feature with pics) in the local paper and a slot on the local radio, all free. I also managed to persuade Ric Sanders of Fairport Convention to announce the gig from the stage at Fairport's Tunbridge Wells apearance a few weeks before the TTL gig. Ticket prices were the usual rates for a relatively unknown band.

With all that, and despite getting a reasonably decent crowd in for the venue and band, I made a loss of about £200 on the evening. I'd been pretty certain that I would make a loss, though that was slightly more than I'd hoped for. But, as you say, I was more interested in bringing the girls' music to a wider audience than in making a profit...however, if I'd adopted Conrad's approach my loss would have been nearer £800 than £200! There are limits to what anyone can absorb!

Subject: RE: The Concept of FREED Folkmusic
From: *#1 PEASANT*
Date: 28 Aug 10 - 07:45 AM

What dont you understand about not needing entrepreneurs or travel.

Why do folk musicians have to travel? Stay where they are and train sufficient others and create an adequate local scene.

Travel is just another way to raise costs so we now have to pay for travel as well as the pool at the hotel.

You need to think about my proposals.

Telling me we need entrepreneurs is silly.

All a person needs to do is contact musicians coordinate a location go there and play....

That is exactly the problem fat cat entrepreneurs putting on festivals for their pockets and not for the music.

They load the festivals up with vendors and take money from them so that nothing vended is affordable either. We dont need shopping malls at festivals or money sucking entrepreneurs either or jet set folk musicians. Tell me this if they dont make much money how can they afford to travel as you discuss. I think those who travel like that make far too much money. They are supporting airlines not music.

Conrad

Subject: RE: The Concept of FREED Folkmusic
From: Rob Naylor
Date: 28 Aug 10 - 09:02 AM

Conrad,

What do *you* not understand about the difference between putting on local sessions with local people and putting on bigger events, or events featuring musicans skilled/ well known enough to draw large numbers of people?

For something like a pub session, yes, "all" you need to do is contact musicians and coordinate a location (ensuring the location owner is amenable, that perfoming licenses are obtained and paid for, the premises are insured, etc) then go there and play.

No problem in a pub, or in a private house with a couple of dozen people, or even on the street with something like "Commando Trad".

In fact, I'm going to such an event on 11th September at a friend's smallholding, where we'll have a hog roast (cooking one of his own pigs) and 20 or 30 people playing and singing...in a wooded area, well away from residences that may complain of noise etc.

But organising a whole "festival" with many hundreds of attendees is a whole diferent ball game. Yes, you can roll up with a couple of flat-bed tucks in a field to make a stage (but the trucks are at *someone's* cost, and the field owner may want rent). It'll be unlicensed and uninsured, but hell, there's a long history of "raves" in the UK where people turn up in a field and play without licenses, permission, or insurance. But almost always they've charged for it...if only to cover the cost of paying the fines and replacing their PA when the police confiscate it having turned up in response to complaints from the landowner or nearby residences. And there's the cost of cleaning up the area, etc.

As others have said, commercially successful bands have sometimes put on free events...but that's "free at the point of use" not "free of costs to set up".

And it was hardly "jet set muscicians" for *this* temporary (and loss-making) "fat cat" when the band he put on arrived with all 5 and all their kit crammed into an ancient Volvo. They were going to sleep on my floor, too, but we had an accommodation crisis that weekend with children unexpectedly returning home, so they slept in a local budget hotel that barely had beds, never mind a pool. They had 2 rooms between 5 at £24 for one room and £29 for the other. The only merchandising done was the sale of their own CDs at a cheaper price than they could be bought on line or in shops. I know what they charge, and I know how many gigs they do....quite frankly that band, and most of ther other good but not internationally famous artistes I know "on the circuit" would be better off drawing Job Seekers' Allowance (aka Unemployment Benefit) looking at their net income once costs have been taken into account.

And of course they need to travel. Even a band like Tom Williams and the Boat, with a very strong local following in West Kent and Sussex, would find audiences getting fed up with seeing them if they were constantly only playing in a 20 mile radius of home. It's called "exposure fatigue".

There's a TINY percentage of performers and entrepreneurs who make significant income from the music. Most just get by. The two biggest local entrepreneurs in this area live very modestly in small homes and drive battered old vehicles. They probably make losses on 50% of the events they put on.

This picture you have of "jet-setting" artistes demanding pools and not deigning to mingle with their audiences is just another example of the massive chip on your shoulder and bears no relation to the reality of the situation for 95% of artistes and entrepreneurs...probably nearer 99% in the case of folk artistes!!!

I can see a number of reasons why your folk "friends" may have dumped you, and none of them are related to politics. I'm dumping you now....bye.................

Subject: RE: The Concept of FREED Folkmusic
From: *#1 PEASANT*
Date: 28 Aug 10 - 09:44 AM

nobody needs to travel

everyone can volunteer just ask the volunteers that are fooled that they are essential- if one volunteers everyone can. Festivals happen only for a few days each year. Companies loose much more than that in sick leave. So do the right thing volunteer EVERYONE

We dont need to support a master class of jet set big names we need to find the best way to provide access to the music.

Conrad

Subject: RE: The Concept of FREED Folkmusic
From: Smokey.
Date: 28 Aug 10 - 02:01 PM

Access is there, at all levels and standards. You are trying to fix a problem that doesn't exist. If there is currently little or no access to the music, how come so many people know of its existence?

Subject: RE: The Concept of FREED Folkmusic
From: Ralphie
Date: 28 Aug 10 - 02:16 PM

I just love Conrads theory of "Jet set" folkies....!!
Having picked myself up off the floor. I pose the question..
Name One. Go on..I dare you.
Every singer and musician I know on the UK folk scene earns rather less than the minimum wage.
I would advise you, Conrad, to go out and but a reality gene.

Subject: RE: The Concept of FREED Folkmusic
From: *#1 PEASANT*
Date: 28 Aug 10 - 02:53 PM

Must be different in the usa. Most people who headline folk events travel across the country by air or whatever and that naturally makes everything more expensive.

Local is best.

Another problem is that if you want the local scene to grow you have to put whatever money there is into it. If you must use money.

The concept of pro musician may encourage some but it also convinces others that they are not worthy.

Its ordinary stuff for ordinary people!

Conrad

Subject: RE: The Concept of FREED Folkmusic
From: Don Firth
Date: 28 Aug 10 - 05:44 PM

"All a person needs to do is contact musicians coordinate a location go there and play...."

Okay, Conrad. Sounds simple enough. Why don't you just do it yourself instead begging other people to do it for you?

But, of course, there are a few problems there. First of all, what location? For a folk festival of any size, you need space. Public park? Well, you'd probably have to get a city permit and perhaps a license to hold a public event there before you will be allowed to use it legally. That might cost you a buck or two, so scratch that!

Some farmer's field, kind of like Woodstock? Well, it would be wise to get the permission of the farmer, otherwise he might usher you off the place at the business end of a pitchfork. Or he might offer to rent it to you. Oops! Money again! So, no go with that idea.

As to free events:   coming up tomorrow afternoon, a good friend of mine is throwing a "hoot."

The term, "hoot," short for "hootenanny," is what we call an informal gathering of folk singers. The term started in Seattle back in the 1940s, and Pete Seeger and Woody Guthrie picked it up when they were out here once, then they started using the word for their weekend gatherings at Almanac House in New York. It spread from there, and was eventually pre-empted by the ABC television network for their Saturday evening folk music show. Since then, in most places, a "hootenanny" has been a multi-performer concert with the musicians on a stage with the audience not participating but just listening. [See Pete Seeger's The Incompleat Folksinger.]

A "hoot," the way it has always been done around here, is not a "performers over here and audience over there" kind of thing. People just sit wherever they want. If the weather is good, it will probably be in my friend's big back yard. If not, he'll probably hold it in his large, spaceous workshop, or if the crowd is smaller, in his living room. There is no distinction between performers and audience. Sit anywhere you want, and if you feel like playing and / or singing, go right ahead. Just jump in. If you just want to sit and listen, feel free. He usually has a pot-luck, so you might be asked to bring something, and bring your own beer or wine (so maybe that wouldn't work for you, since you might have to spend a buck or two for a package of frankfurters and a six-pack or something). But no admission charge at the door. And none of the singers gets paid. The whole thing is for the sheer enjoyment of it.

So it sounds to me like you want to do something like that, only on a much bigger scale. Well, okay. No problem. Well—yes—a problem. Finding a big enough space for a few thousand people. And the logistics of managing a large crowd. So, wotthehell, Conrad, just go ahead and do it.

But no! You don't want to do it. You want someone else to do it for you!

AND—

"Must be different in the usa. Most people who headline folk events travel across the country by air or whatever and that naturally makes everything more expensive."

Where the hell did you get THAT idea!??

You know, Conrad, you keep using this phrase "jet-set musicians." I really don't know where you get cockamamie ideas like that. Maybe someone like Russian operatic baritone Dmitri Hvorostovsky may travel by jet, but his schedule might include singing an opera performance at the Met in New York, followed by another opera the next week at Covent Garden in London, followed by a series of recitals in South America or Japan. Also, it would cost you a couple of thousand dollars to book someone like Hvorostovsky. He has both talent and a great voice, and he has worked very hard to get where he is today. And he draws big crowds that don't mind paying top ticket prices to hear him sing.

I don't know of any singer of folk songs who commands anywhere near that kind of money

Jet set? Not hardly! When I sang somewhere other than Seattle, I usually went by Greyhound. If it's a long distance, then by train. Now that I have my own car, I can drive. But this (bus or train ticket, or gasoline), of course, I have to pay myself, so it's hardly worth the trip unless I get paid enough to cover that, plus what overnight accommodations I might need, AND make a living wage. Not a fortune. Just a living wage.

Otherwise, I simply can't afford to do it, depriving me of the enjoyment of singing for others, and those others, the enjoyment (hopefully) of hearing me sing.

Now, I sing at hoots and other gatherings like that for free. Those, of course, are usually right here in town and only a fairly short drive from where I live. I do it for my own enjoyment, and no money changes hands. But—I have a policy that, other than a benefit that I have agreed to do, if someone is making money off my singing, I insist on getting a cut of it. I think that's only reasonable and fair.

And as to "jet-setting musicians," on his concert tours, the late Richard Dyer-Bennet used to travel by Greyhound or by train. How do I know? He told me so.

Also, when he was on a concert tour, he would often sing earlier in the day at a high school assembly, introducing a lot of bubble-gummers and possibly aspiring rock musicians to the alternative of folk music. And he did this for either small fees or no fees at all.

"The concept of pro musician may encourage some but it also convinces others that they are not worthy."

You, perhaps, if your ego is really that fragile. But early on, even though at first I didn't know from Shinola about what was involved in learning to play the guitar and sing, hearing Walt Robertson (a professional) live, then spending a few hours with Pete Seeger (a professional) well past midnight after one of his concerts, and hearing and talking with people like Richard Dyer-Bennet, Theo Bikel, Gordon Bok, and many, many other professional singers of folk songs, far from convincing me that I was "not worthy," it inspired me to work hard, learn, and strive to be as good as they were / are. And, honestly, I have never met anyone who was so intimidated by someone else's talent and ability that they simply dropped whatever they were doing. Musicians, artists, dancers, writers, et al. Normal people are inspired rather than discouraged, and hearing a good performer, more often than not, encourages them to redouble their efforts.

That's a GOOD thing!!

Is the level of your self-esteem so low that hearing a good singer or musician convinces you that you are not worthy?

Apparently!

No, Conrad. Don Quixote, in his delusions, tilted at windmills, thinking that they were evil giants waving their arms. You, on the other hand, are tilting at imaginary windmills.

The problem you complain of doesn't exist. Folk music is alive and well all over the country. Perhaps there is a mini-drought in your neighborhood, but you can do something about that. If you really want to. That's what people all over the country—all over the world—do.

Don't just whine and complain. If you really think something should be done, then do it. Yourself!

Don Firth

P. S.   "If you just sit back and say 'Let George do it,' you might wake up one morning and discover that Bill did it instead, and you might not like that so well!"
—Pete Seeger

Subject: RE: The Concept of FREED Folkmusic
From: Don Firth
Date: 28 Aug 10 - 05:49 PM

"Jet-setting" musicians.

Okay, Conrad. Name me some of these jet-setting singers of folk songs.

Don Firth

Subject: RE: The Concept of FREED Folkmusic
From: Smokey.
Date: 28 Aug 10 - 05:50 PM

Why shouldn't ordinary people have higher quality professional music? Maybe you don't want it, Conrad, but I think you are in a minority - one which is adequately catered for, as far as I can see. Your apparent philosophy hinders the pursuit of excellence which is generally the driving force behind most music. The 'top end of the market' is a natural consequence of the 'bottom end', and couldn't exist without it. The 'bottom end' is constantly at saturation point - I don't think that can be changed a great deal. The only way to expand the current 'local' scene is to breed faster..

Subject: RE: The Concept of FREED Folkmusic
From: *#1 PEASANT*
Date: 28 Aug 10 - 06:13 PM

The driving force should never be the pursuit of excellence that is the byproduct. The driving force behind music is the human condition. dont forget that if you do you will never understand what I am getting at here.

If you only let the "excellent" perform the non excellent will be deprived of opportunity and because the excellent charge money music therefore becomes rationed.

travel costs travel is not necessary it just makes it all more expensive.

Around here there is no after concert anything pay your money sit and listen then out the door.

Hoots are good but round here primairly if you play a stringed instrument.

Ordinary people are great musicians.

Conrad

Subject: RE: The Concept of FREED Folkmusic
From: Smokey.
Date: 28 Aug 10 - 07:15 PM

I don't think you even begin to understand music or musicians except from your own perspective - there are others. I think you are using music for your own political soapbox and have little or no respect for the music itself, or musicianship.

Define "the human condition" within the context in which you use it.

Subject: RE: The Concept of FREED Folkmusic
From: Smokey.
Date: 28 Aug 10 - 07:58 PM

By the way, I didn't mean excellence for its own sake, I meant for everyone's, as it makes the music more effective, accessible and pleasurable.

Subject: RE: The Concept of FREED Folkmusic
From: The Fooles Troupe
Date: 28 Aug 10 - 08:33 PM

As somone who put quite a lot of time into trying to set up a couple of different events at different locations in pretty much the style of Conrad's philosophy (not paying musos, low cost food, using existing minimal toilet, accommodation facilities, etc, etc), I just gave up on them all.

As a pensioner, I don't really want to make a huge profit - if I do I will lose my pension, at least for the amount that it is 'deemed' that I got, even if I did make a loss, cause most of the 'expenses' will be ignored anyway - after all it is my gross income, not any real 'profit' that I 'get'. OK I can get around most of that nonsense by setting up a real company - oh wait that costs quite a lot of money to do it properly. And then there is the insurance, and the performing rights Jobsworths ...

Apart from a distinct lack of sponsors, just getting the bastards who are going to make money out of it without putting almost anything in it themselves (financially) to even ring me back!!!! just burnt me out...

Subject: RE: The Concept of FREED Folkmusic
From: *#1 PEASANT*
Date: 28 Aug 10 - 09:34 PM

The task here is to go beyond formal concerns.

Lots of spaces.

People can generally meet up in them and play music without restriction.
What is the big insurance etc...etc...problem.

Turn up in a place play music.
Works for me.

Conrad

Subject: RE: The Concept of FREED Folkmusic
From: Smokey.
Date: 28 Aug 10 - 09:52 PM

"The driving force behind music is the human condition. dont forget that if you do you will never understand what I am getting at here."

I would truly like to understand what you're getting at.

What exactly do you mean by 'the human condition', and why is it more important than the quality and efficacy (in my opinion) of music?


Meanwhile.. put on your events, as you think fit; no-one here has actually expressed a desire to stop you.

Subject: RE: The Concept of FREED Folkmusic
From: Padre
Date: 28 Aug 10 - 09:56 PM

Conrad,
Go back and read my post about the Washington Folk Festival - it's dated 26 August 11:48 PM.

Then do the following for all of us here who have been subjected to your rant for the last week, never seeming to understand any of the ideas we have tried to pass on to you

1. Tell us why a festival such as the WFF would not work in your world, since it has worked for 30 years in ours.


Padre

Subject: RE: The Concept of FREED Folkmusic
From: The Fooles Troupe
Date: 28 Aug 10 - 10:36 PM

"Lots of spaces.

People can generally meet up in them and play music without restriction.
What is the big insurance etc...etc...problem."

You don't WANT to understand.

Subject: RE: The Concept of FREED Folkmusic
From: *#1 PEASANT*
Date: 28 Aug 10 - 10:40 PM

No I just dont want any EXCUSES!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!

Yes I responded to the note about the Washington Folk Festival it is indeed wondrous but few like that around these days. I am there every year.
Yes it can work in my world but even the WFF has grantors and I would want to get around them.

Self Sufficiency- ordinary people doing ordinary things like playing music.

But the WFF is wonderful and a model that comes close.


Conrad

Subject: RE: The Concept of FREED Folkmusic
From: Smokey.
Date: 28 Aug 10 - 11:11 PM

Have you tried writing poetry?

Subject: RE: The Concept of FREED Folkmusic
From: The Fooles Troupe
Date: 29 Aug 10 - 01:21 AM

... recording your own singing?

Subject: RE: The Concept of FREED Folkmusic
From: Don Firth
Date: 29 Aug 10 - 02:16 AM

Conrad, the only excuses around here are being made by you. You want others to do it all for you. And at their expense.

There's no problem having a folk music gathering. Just call up a bunch of people you know and invite them to your place for an evening of just sitting around and singing. It's that simple. If you want to be a good host, you might provide a case of beer and some snacks, but that's not essential. You could always make it BYOB. That's what a lot of the hoots around Seattle have been, and they've been going, off and on, since before I got involved in the early 1950s.

The first hoot I ever attended was in 1952. There hadn't been any for a few years. Then one evening while sitting in The Chalet restaurant with Walt Robertson and a couple of other people, Ken Prichard, the proprietor of The Chalet, came up to the table and said, "Hey, why don't we throw a hootenanny?" Walt broke into a grin and said, "Fantastic! Let's do it!" I said, "What's a hootenanny?" And Chuck Canady said, "It's an informal gathering of folk singers. They get together and sit around singing for each other. The word 'hootenanny' is one of these indefinite words like 'thingamajig,' but it usually means 'a noisy contrivance of doubtful utility.'"

So the following Saturday evening, Ken closed The Chalet for business and we had a hootenanny. About a dozen singers and seventy-odd other people came. Started at about 8:00 p.m. and lasted until well after midnight.

Subsequently, hardly a weekend would go by but there wasn't a hoot somewhere. Sometimes in the Friends (Quakers) Community Center, but more often in someone's living room.

And you know what? The East 42nd Street Arts Association developed out of that. That was US! The arts association organized a street arts festival, and you know what? The University District Businessmen's Club provided the funding and got the necessary city licenses for us. They even got the police department to block E 42nd Steet between University Way and 15th N. E. You see, one of us went to them and suggested that an event such as this that would draw lots of people to the U. District was just good business. EVERYBODY benefitted.

Then, we formed the Pacific Northwest Folklore Society. No dues, just a mailing list. It went dormant for awhile, but others sprung up in there place. The Seattle Folk Music Society, which used to get together a couple Saturday evenings a month at the University of Washington YM/YWCA. No charge, and they let us use the big lounge on the first floor.

Later came the Seattle Folklore Society, which started the Northwest Folklife Festival, a free event that draws thousands of singers and musicians, and hundreds of thousands of spectators.

A few years back, when the Seattle Folklore Society seemed to be interested in sponsoring concerts for singer-songwriters only, Stewart (who frequently posts on this forum), Bob (Deckman) Nelson, and I resurrected the Pacific Northwest Folklore Society. The PNW Folklore Society sponsors lots of folk music events (primarily consisting of traditional folk music).

Look, and be AMAZED! ———> CLICKY.

This is what one can do if they are so motivated, stop whining about the way things are, and get up off their lazy butts and DO something themselves, instead of begging others to do it for them.

Go thou, and sin no more!

Don Firth

Subject: RE: The Concept of FREED Folkmusic
From: Will Fly
Date: 29 Aug 10 - 04:47 AM

Conrad, you seem to think that commercialism, professionalism and excellence are preventing "ordinary" people from getting involved in folk music. You also seem to be fixated on folk festivals as the main and problematical reason for this prevention.

I don't know what planet you live on but, in my neck of the woods on planet Earth, I can't see any problem in making and listening to, good music for free. You seem to be shoving at an obstacle that doesn't exist, and making some rather fatuous statements in the course of doing so.

For example, how would budding or experienced musicians ever learn about different music or different playing styles if no-one ever travelled into our out of their community? From the radio or the TV, presumably. And where does the music on the radio or TV come from - from Mars?

How will younger or beginning or inexperienced musicians ever improve their playing without better, more experienced players to listen to and learn from? As an experienced guitarist, many people have asked for my help and advice in playing - help which I give freely. As a budding violinist, I go to pubs to hear more experienced players perform and, without exception, they freely give their advice and answer my questions. Many of these, by the way, are professional violinists - they earn their living from music - and their generosity knows no bounds.

And, as for earning a living from music, why the devil shouldn't anyone do that if they can?

I can listen to and play music every night of the week if I'm so inclined - at minimal cost. You're raising red herrings - and raising spirits at a music session is so much more fulfilling than listening to your nonsense.

Subject: RE: The Concept of FREED Folkmusic
From: *#1 PEASANT*
Date: 29 Aug 10 - 08:16 AM

As I have said above I do hold free events.

Many professional musicians of late have found nothing but excuses instead of attending. We still get plenty of folk turning up but they are so into the money making greed that they attend oft goofy commercial activities instead. That is ok that is their choice.

Helping out is always wonderful but I have met all too many who dont put time and energy into it.

Conrad

Subject: RE: The Concept of FREED Folkmusic
From: Don Firth
Date: 29 Aug 10 - 03:11 PM

". . . but they are so into the money making greed. . . ."

If a singer of folk songs is into "money making greed," he or she is certainly barking up the wrong tree. There are certainly more lucrative fields of music than folk music.

Case in point:   Early Music is really big in my area right now, as is demonstrated by the various groups that have been popping up around the country within recent years, such as The Baltimore Consort. They are much in demand by big paying audiences all over the country. Also, they have a huge stack of CDs out on the market. (They're from your area, Conrad; ever heard them? Or heard of them? They're very good).

Or The Renaissance Singers, whose home base is in my area, Seattle.

Or Elizabeth C. D. Brown, who recently graduated from the U. of W. School of Music and is now doing concerts, has several CDs out, and who is teaching lute and guitar at Pacific Lutheran University in Tacoma, 30 miles south of Seattle. She plays regular classical guitar, lute, and Baroque guitar.

I already play several lute pieces on the classic guitar, and all I need do is retire my guitar and pick up a lute or cittern and practice a bit. The playing techniques are essentially the same. And when I was at the U. of W., I sang with the University Singers and the University Madrigal group, so all I need to do is brush up on my French a bit, and I'm ready to go with all kinds of early French troubadour songs, a few Elizabethan songs (Dowland and such—I have a couple of books of such songs), and spice up my concerts and recitals with some songs from Shakespeare's plays (such as "Feste's Song" at the end of Twelfth Night). I have a book full of those, also. I already sing a few of them. And all I need to do is accompany them on the lute rather than on the guitar, and that will give me the image!

(Hey!! That's not a bad idea! I'm gonna think about that!!)

AND—for that matter, I could throw in a lot of folk songs as well.

You know? A whole lot of folk songs and ballads are "folk processed" descendants of the old troubadour and minstrel songs from pre-Renaissance times. I could build some really excellent programs with this!! Not only build prestige as a singer who really knows his material, but I could have a foot in both camps and really make a bundle while I'm at it!

I smell still another educational television series!!

By the way, Conrad, pull your head out of where the sun doesn't shine and take a good look around. The world is not the way you seem to think it is.

Don Firth

P. S.   And here's somthing you might think about:   if the better singers are not turning up at your events, did it ever occur to you that you, haranguing them about how they're doing it all wrong and trying to tell them how they should be doing it, might be the reason they're not showing up?

Subject: RE: The Concept of FREED Folkmusic
From: *#1 PEASANT*
Date: 29 Aug 10 - 07:40 PM

listen to sunday folk G. Tudor programme. Today~! available for a week play it again.

A well known poet and musician singer notes that she was intimidated to the extent that she did not start her folk career by stages and pro musicians....I rest my case.

This should never happen.

Pros should remain in the background

Conrad

Subject: RE: The Concept of FREED Folkmusic
From: Bobert
Date: 29 Aug 10 - 07:58 PM

Folk musicans and "greed" cannot be used in the same sentence, Conrad... Do you have any idea how little folkies are paid??? I mean, like a decent paying gig might pay $250... A festival gig, maybe twice that... Do the math... Ain't no folkies gettin' rich here...

BTW, there are plenty of workshops/camps out there where inexperienced folkies can spend a week with experienced folkies learning stuff... They aren't all that expensive and guess what??? The experience folkies ain't gettin' paid no big bucks either so inspite of yer insistence on puttin' "greed" with "folk musican", that dog don't hunt...

B~

Subject: RE: The Concept of FREED Folkmusic
From: Smokey.
Date: 29 Aug 10 - 08:04 PM

Pros should remain in the background

From what you say, they are already doing so at your events. Perhaps you might try good manners, respect and gratitude (they cost nothing) if you want their support.

My attitude towards gig earnings has alway been that they are paying me for the wear and tear of my gear, and to be there. The music they get absolutely free of charge, and I am just paid to deliver it to the best of my ability.

You've still not answered my question, by the way.

Don Firth, you have the patience of a saint..

Subject: RE: The Concept of FREED Folkmusic
From: *#1 PEASANT*
Date: 29 Aug 10 - 08:13 PM

Nobody in their opinion gets paid enough
but with the demand generated by free folk music they will never have such ability to make money!

Nah pro folkies in my area are shown to be a bunch of arrogant piss heads just wanting to control your philosopy. Fine and they are still welcome providing that they dont want money.

In addition to being a folk musician and storyteller at professional level I am also an artcar artist. I drive them daily and dont expect any money

Conrad

Subject: RE: The Concept of FREED Folkmusic
From: The Fooles Troupe
Date: 29 Aug 10 - 08:18 PM

"[Don discusses various lucrative ways of increasing his income by faking up some more commercially popular music based on his existing talents and repertoire]
(Hey!! That's not a bad idea! I'm gonna think about that!!)"

Hey Don - Sting led the way ... :-P

I'm in need of an income boost Don - need a multi instrumentalist (keyboard based) to join in? I have mucked about with the virginals (I think that is what she said she was....) and the harpsichord, I got a lot of wind (instruments) experience, spent a lot of time mucking around with 'Early Music' myself, know a bit about portative pipe organs, can play a mean racket (so my critics say!), and can do a mean harmony, I mean I can harmonize .....