The Concept of FREED Folkmusic

Subject: RE: The Concept of FREED Folkmusic
From: Don Firth
Date: 07 Sep 10 - 10:13 PM

Look who's calling who "despicable leeches!!

". . . organizers say they take public funds and proceeds and spend it all on musicians and set up. Musicians claim to not make money at all hardly."

No, Conrad, they're both telling you the truth. Public funds amount to only a small subsidy, never enough to cover a whole event, and the organizers have to scramble to dig up contributions from elsewhere to supplement the public grant, otherwise it's not going to happen at all. NOBODY gets rich. In fact, people lose money. But they do it because they think the music is worthwhile.

Which, obviously, you do not!

And you can take your insults and shove them where the sun doesn't shine, Conrad. I've told you what the problem is, but you're too friggin' lazy and cheap to do anything about it. You want it all done for you, and for nothing!

Don Firth

Subject: RE: The Concept of FREED Folkmusic
From: Ralphie
Date: 08 Sep 10 - 03:50 AM

Can't wait to tell Martin Carthy that he is a despicable leech! Lol!

Subject: RE: The Concept of FREED Folkmusic
From: Will Fly
Date: 08 Sep 10 - 05:35 AM

Here's a collection of some of the sayings of Conrad throughout this thread:

[pro folk musicians are] walking juke boxes that you need to put money into in order to get music out

For centuries the folk world did without all the expensive frills and produced great music and musical experiences for large numbers of people.

House concerts are not really casual but highly contrived alternative money making schemes. Never go to one just thinking it is a casual ordinary music opportunity- they will want money.

When will I ever learn that if I want to sit down and simply learn to sing and play with others that I must give up my freedom of speech.

I also ran a virtual tin whistle folk festival all organized on line once- totally free totally self help.

I have given up selling my books as people have no money left. I do very well however by distributing order forms- which do come in eventually

inside groups of folkies do strictly enforce their political and lifestyle paradigms.

if public music was free it would expand the demand such that professionals would indeed have better incomes

I have recently lost a good group of folk musician friends for simply defending my own particular values and philosophies.

the folk world is jingoistically liberal, alt lifeways, socialist and tightly knit making it difficult for people with other views to come in from the outside.

Why do folk musicians have to travel? Stay where they are and train sufficient others and create an adequate local scene.

pro folkies in my area are shown to be a bunch of arrogant piss heads just wanting to control your philosopy.

I do the local festivals for free always. The key word is always. Occasionally I will accept a small donation for special private sort of events.

Professional musicians charging fees benefit from scarcity.

I am really concerned about the continuing use of public funds for folk music in these difficult times

Then again folk music is rationed. Folk musicians want to inflate their ego and charge rock star admissions.

The value of the music is found in much more than the notes heard but in the cultural setting associated with the music

professional folk musicians and those using festivals and other public events to make money are slowing the spread of the music and should make it more accessible via adopting the free folk music model

I am always surprised that folk musicians, poor folk that they claim to be always seem to hold sings and sessions at the most expensive places. If one drinks properly one can only afford to attend for a few minutes.

Why do we have performers that need to make a living?

We never ever needed traveling musicians we need to spread it locally.

Nothing wrong with buying music though. Just another form of transmission.

Nothing but professional lefty, adgenda pushing, rock stars sucking the blood out of the experiences, limiting access via funds.

I as a traditional player playing as part of my life do not envy pros they are despicable leeches.

There you have it - the wit and wisdom of Mr. Dazed and Confused of Baltimore.

Subject: RE: The Concept of FREED Folkmusic
From: *#1 PEASANT*
Date: 08 Sep 10 - 06:44 AM

Thanks for the compilation.

But I am not the confused one!

Conrad

Subject: RE: The Concept of FREED Folkmusic
From: GUEST,Ralphie
Date: 08 Sep 10 - 06:51 AM

Conrad.
You are in a minority of one!

Subject: RE: The Concept of FREED Folkmusic
From: *#1 PEASANT*
Date: 08 Sep 10 - 08:46 AM

Reform often starts that way.

Just because the majority in the pro musician worship group are of one mind does not mean that it is a sane mind.

Subject: RE: The Concept of FREED Folkmusic
From: Rob Naylor
Date: 08 Sep 10 - 10:47 AM

And of every 100,000 "reformers" who believe that *they alone* have the inside track on how things should be, maybe 99,999 are nut-jobs while maybe 1 has some truly new insight.

So what are the odds, Conrad?

(Rob...dipping back into this morass briefly)

Subject: RE: The Concept of FREED Folkmusic
From: *#1 PEASANT*
Date: 08 Sep 10 - 11:18 AM

Well so far critique has been quite weak.

The biggest problem is accepting that although some do practice free folk and have success with it, it has to be made the rule rather than the exception.

Professional music needs to be the exception rather than the rule.

We need to accept that folk music as a way of life needs more attention and accessibility. Folk music has more cultural lifeway implications and obligations. It is not well suited to commercialism as commercialism limits its accessibility and growth.

Conrad

Subject: RE: The Concept of FREED Folkmusic
From: Will Fly
Date: 08 Sep 10 - 01:54 PM

Thanks for the compilation. But I am not the confused one!

Really? Just look at the tripe you've written and reflect. If you can't see the stupidity, the conflicting statements, the unverifiable assertions, the envy, the bitching, etc. of your thoughts and viewpoint, then there's no hope for you. End of story.

Subject: RE: The Concept of FREED Folkmusic
From: Don Firth
Date: 08 Sep 10 - 03:06 PM

"I have recently lost a good group of folk musician friends for simply defending my own particular values and philosophies."

Quelle surprise!!

Here's a little truism for you to ponder, Conrad. If you go around calling people "despicable leeches," it's not at all surprising that you got a boot up your backside, sending you ass over teakettle down the front steps, followed by sound of the door slamming behind you.

Don Firth

Subject: RE: The Concept of FREED Folkmusic
From: Don Firth
Date: 08 Sep 10 - 03:11 PM

Basically what you have done as far as your folk musician ex-friends are concerned, Conrad, is committed suicide with the same weapon with which Samson slew 1,000 Philistines.

Don Firth

Subject: RE: The Concept of FREED Folkmusic
From: Ralphie
Date: 08 Sep 10 - 03:11 PM

Pol Pot was in a minority of one as well.
So, the Killing fields of Cambodia are justified?

Subject: RE: The Concept of FREED Folkmusic
From: *#1 PEASANT*
Date: 08 Sep 10 - 04:11 PM

So now I am the Pol Pot of folk music! A strong remedy is needed.
I would not go to those lengths.

Yes I told my folkie friends that a. I was a conservative republican (no not tea party far from it) b. I was religious c. I tend to favor authentic celebrations and old non commercial folk over commercial and festivals that have become nothing but masquerade.

Actually a big issue was that I objected to folk, other festivals where one's impression of the festival was more of an outside shopping mall and money collecting activity than the stated goal.

Generally I do not render an opinion unless asked and generally abstract discussions here are more in more colorful language than face to face communication.

So there you go that complaint dealt with on to the next defense of the status quo.

Conrad

Subject: RE: The Concept of FREED Folkmusic
From: Smokey.
Date: 08 Sep 10 - 04:30 PM

Generally I do not render an opinion unless asked

Good job we didn't ask, then..

What is your opinion of the maxim 'live and let live'?

Subject: RE: The Concept of FREED Folkmusic
From: Don Firth
Date: 08 Sep 10 - 04:32 PM

". . . festivals that have become nothing but masquerade."

Are you talking about Renaissance Fairs and/SCA activities, Conrad?

I wouldn't equate those events with folk festivals.

Don Firth

Subject: RE: The Concept of FREED Folkmusic
From: Don Firth
Date: 08 Sep 10 - 04:54 PM

Conrad, the Baltimore Folk Music Society seems to be a bit heavy on folk dancing, but they also have a pretty active "StoryFolk" series of programs going. Along with a "coffeehouse" a couple of times a month, and all kinds of other programs. Having read their "statement of purpose," it seems to me that you could multiply your efforts by affiliating yourself with this organization.

Or is your interest in folk culture and keeping everything totally without money changing hands so deep that the $27.00 yearly membership fee put you off?

Or are they, perhaps, the ones who kicked you down the front stairs after you ran your mouth?

Don Firth

Subject: RE: The Concept of FREED Folkmusic
From: Smokey.
Date: 08 Sep 10 - 05:06 PM

They use volunteers, Don.. Filthy robbing capitalist bastards.

Subject: RE: The Concept of FREED Folkmusic
From: Smokey.
Date: 08 Sep 10 - 06:08 PM

Well so far critique has been quite weak.

The biggest problem is accepting that although some do practice free folk and have success with it, it has to be made the rule rather than the exception.

Professional music needs to be the exception rather than the rule.

No rules, Conrad. Besides, for every professional there are hundreds of amateurs, probably thousands. It is the exception. After masturbation, folk music is probably the cheapest form of entertainment available.

We need to accept that folk music as a way of life needs more attention and accessibility.

For the vast majority of consumers it's not a way of life, merely their preferred form of entertainment. It is, however, a way of life for the professionals - whose job it is to make it accessible.

Folk music has more cultural lifeway implications and obligations.

Than what?

It is not well suited to commercialism as commercialism limits its accessibility and growth.

The biggest popularity boost folk music has ever had was when it was electrified and marketed by the established music business. That resulted in a significant growth of awareness of, and interest in the more acoustic and 'authentically traditional' (whatever that may be..) end of the market. The point of commercialising anything is to make it more available. If people are working full time to increase that availability it is unreasonable to expect them to work for nothing.

Subject: RE: The Concept of FREED Folkmusic
From: *#1 PEASANT*
Date: 08 Sep 10 - 06:36 PM

I am a member of the Baltimore group. Yes mostly dancing and when you go to listen to dance music there you find that the people are there for fitness with running shoes and sweat bands....bizarre....I had hoped at least for decent snacks at the break but no....healthy fruit and juice.

My time is now all tied up in editing of the new huge book then the one that comes next. Money does not exist. But someday I shall get back into storytelling but on the whole.....storytellers are a hard group to relate to.

There are many paths to popularity. The one which saw the folk musicians copying rock stars was a false path.

Conrad

Subject: RE: The Concept of FREED Folkmusic
From: Smokey.
Date: 08 Sep 10 - 07:12 PM

Hmm, yes Conrad.. a false path.. and you are the Way, the Truth and the Light.

Subject: RE: The Concept of FREED Folkmusic
From: Smokey.
Date: 08 Sep 10 - 07:18 PM

... the piece that passeth all understanding.

Subject: RE: The Concept of FREED Folkmusic
From: *#1 PEASANT*
Date: 08 Sep 10 - 07:53 PM

Thats right~

Becoming free folk events will broaden accessibility not rocket science

Subject: RE: The Concept of FREED Folkmusic
From: Don Firth
Date: 08 Sep 10 - 08:00 PM

Smokey says, "The biggest popularity boost folk music has ever had was when it was electrified and marketed by the established music business. That resulted in a significant growth of awareness of, and interest in the more acoustic and 'authentically traditional' (whatever that may be..) end of the market."

When I first got interested in folk music, it was moving like a stealthy submarine of esoterica through a sea of dark obscurity. In the 1930s, Alan Lomax did a program on folk music on "The American School of the Air," an educational radio program that was beamed at schools. I may have heard some of these programs when I was little. In the late 1940s, Burl Ives had a radio program on Sunday afternoons called "The Wayfaring Stranger," on which he talked about American history and sang songs that grew out of historical incidents. In 1948, I believe it was, I saw a movie entitled "Glamour Girl," about a young woman from the southern mountains who had been brought to New York to sing folk songs in some guy's night club. It starred Susan Reed, who played zither and Irish harp, and, along with Burl Ives, had a couple of recordings on the market.

My active interest, as that of several other people I knew, was ignited by Walt Robertson, a professional singer of folk songs, when I went to one of his concerts with my girl friend at the time.

And AT that time, if you were to mention "folk music" to anyone, most people thought you were talking about "hillbilly music" like they played on Grand Ole Opry or "Modern Western Swing" as sung by groups like The Sons of the Pioneers.

Then, along came Harry Belafonte. He sparked a moderate interest in folk music, and a year or two later, Calypso.

Then, in November of 1958, a new group burst on the popular music scene when their recording of a FOLK song—"Tom Dooley"—wound up on the pop music Hit Parade! Other groups, The Limeliters, The Brothers Four, The New Christy Minstrels, and still others, started popping up like mushrooms!

And suddenly thousands of young people (but not just young people) were buying guitars and learning how to play them, and singing folk songs!!

Need I remind anybody that The Kingston Trio, The Limeliters, The Brothers Four, The New Christy Minstrels, The Gateway Singers, Peter Paul and Mary and may others were PROFESSIONAL SINGERS who, in the main, sang FOLK SONGS!??

They were slick, they were commercial, and they often flew from engagement to engagement on jet planes. And they were paid quite well to sing in big theaters, concert halls, and arenas.

When they, as happens with ALL POPULAR MUSIC fads were suddenly eclipsed in the mid-1960s by "The British Invasion:" The Beatles, The Rolling Stones, Gary and the Pacemakers, Herman's Hermits, et al, the fading of these professional groups, who sang folk songs, from the pop music scene left behind it a huge residue of people who were actively interested in singing and playing folk songs themselves, some turning into folk music scholars and beginning to form the backbone of the enduring interest in folk music, American and British, that continues today. And in quite good health, I might add.

Although I had become interested in folk music and was actively singing for various groups for a few years before they came along, in all honesty, I MUST acknowledge that the greatest spur in interest in folk music came from these groups of slick, commercial, dress-alike, vertically-stripped button-down shirted college boys singing polished, highly arranged renditions of traditional American folk songs. And with people like Lonnie Donegan and others, the same thing was happening in the British Isles.

So—anyone genuinely interested in the preservation and promulgation of folk music owes a great deal to those "greedy, mercenary, professional jet-setting leeches" who went around singing folk songs for huge, enthusiastic audiences who voluntarily paid top prices to hear them in person and bought their records by the millions.

Conrad, I'm always more than happy to assist those who are groping about in an effort to find a way out of the thick fog of confusion. So I suggest that you study the following two pictures very carefully, until you can finally tell which is which.

PHOTO #1

PHOTO #2

I'm always glad to be of assistance to those so desperately in need.

No need to thank me.

Don Firth

Subject: RE: The Concept of FREED Folkmusic
From: Smokey.
Date: 08 Sep 10 - 09:24 PM

Thoroughly interesting post Don - you paint a much bigger picture than I was thinking of with Britain in the late 60s early 70s.

Methinks it will all fall on stoney ground though.. they were all doing it wrong, see.

Subject: RE: The Concept of FREED Folkmusic
From: *#1 PEASANT*
Date: 08 Sep 10 - 09:53 PM

I am very aware of how folk music became commercial.

It was largely mass market entertainment with a few exceptions where teaching of songs became a focus for some.

In addition to replacing gradma and grandpa's traditional folk with commercial amplified versions and performer star worship it also was taken over and almost obsessed with liberal politics. Yes a few exceptions however it was a political monoculture that dominated and used folk music for its ends.

In addition to traditional music much of this new commercial folk was singer songwriter so another way that family based culture based folk was dilluted.

While the fad developed it was soon over and today folk music is struggling to feed its commercial face as has been pointed out.

Additionally new generations for the most part still do not maintain a widespread effective guardianship of folk culture.

I am close to this problem having worked with both the german and irish communities of baltimore. It is all but gone.

So ok for a while folk music was a mainstream commercial fad.
As it is now over and gone it was not a viable way to proceed yet the commercial route is still popular.

Next argument please....

Conrad

Subject: RE: The Concept of FREED Folkmusic
From: Smokey.
Date: 08 Sep 10 - 09:58 PM

I wish I understood "the WaV syndrome". Is there a psychologist in the house?

Subject: RE: The Concept of FREED Folkmusic
From: Don Firth
Date: 08 Sep 10 - 10:09 PM

Maybe that's the way things are on the planet you're on, Conrad, but not here on Earth.

What continues now, healthy and strong, is not a "commercial fad."

Don Firth

Subject: RE: The Concept of FREED Folkmusic
From: The Fooles Troupe
Date: 08 Sep 10 - 10:26 PM

"And suddenly thousands of young people (but not just young people) were buying guitars and learning how to play them, and singing folk songs!!"

.... and thus the reign of the Piano Accordion did come to a sad end...

Subject: RE: The Concept of FREED Folkmusic
From: Art Thieme
Date: 08 Sep 10 - 10:29 PM

I did a concert for the Baltimore Folk Society a bunch of years ago. It was a fun time if I remember it correctly---and a snowy day.

After filling the gas tank and having a meal, I think I broke even. That was about all I ever usually did. And, all of a sudden, I awoke one morning, and it was 40 years later. 'Twas a good time. If I'd done all of it for free, I would've been just as happy with what I was able to do, but I'd've been dead several decades ago.

As an old sailor told me once, "Topside I'm alright; but below the waterline I'm not worth a dam!"

That's it in a nutshell. And on we go.

Art Thieme

Subject: RE: The Concept of FREED Folkmusic
From: The Fooles Troupe
Date: 08 Sep 10 - 10:30 PM

"There are many paths to popularity. The one which saw the folk musicians copying rock stars"

Never let a good fantasy get inhibited by facts -- the Popular Folk Music Singers were actually the Model which was followed by the Popular Rock Stars - the Record companies had seen what they took as a fast easy way to make a machine to churn out 'music to spec' ....

Subject: RE: The Concept of FREED Folkmusic
From: Don Firth
Date: 08 Sep 10 - 10:42 PM

. . . folk musicians copying rock stars. . . ."

I know you're going to duck this question, Conrad, but let's hear you name a few folk musicians who actually tried to copy rock stars. Who?

Don Firth

Subject: RE: The Concept of FREED Folkmusic
From: catspaw49
Date: 08 Sep 10 - 11:08 PM

Several things are a real shame here.............

The first is that Don Firth has posted some fantastic things here in a place they will be of limited notice. Most will read Cornhole's initial bullshit and pass on by. That's too bad. I'd like to see an excerpted thread of all of Don's very relevant posts without my carping and making fun of Super Moron #1 Pissant and especially without the posts of the B.O. laden Pissant himself.

Also a shame that any of us give anything at all to this thread which might in even the slightest way give the tiniest credibility to Slumdog Artist or his faux art and other assorted junkpile.

Also sad that today we found out that a really fine 'Catter from Oz (Rowan) who contributed wonderfully here has died and yet this thread which needs to be gone keeps going on.

Truth be that Conrad is busy rationalizing his own failure to gain any followers as a musician or artist and has been dismayed over his status as a wannabe-neverwas.......Now he rationalizes and tries to come off as an eccentric genius which he also is not.........Sorry Conrad......Wacko appearance and bad hygiene combined with ridiculous ideas and dumbass pseudo-art makes you just another asshole with B.O.


Spaw

Subject: RE: The Concept of FREED Folkmusic
From: GUEST,Ralphie
Date: 09 Sep 10 - 02:26 AM

Hi Smokey.
To explain. WAV (Walkaboutsverse to give him his Mudcat name) is the UK equivalent to Conrad.
Yes he was born in the UK but has spent nearly all of his life in Australia.
Now back in Blighty, He pontificates on how the Brits should lie their lives. Much in the same way as Conrad does in the US.
If you really want to waste many hours of your life, their are myriad threads that he's started, Oh and a Myspace page too, where you can hear him singing(?) Deep Joy.
Please don't post to any of the threads.
Hope that clarifies things.

Subject: RE: The Concept of FREED Folkmusic
From: *#1 PEASANT*
Date: 09 Sep 10 - 07:15 AM

Plenty of followers thanks.

Yes folk marketing came before rock but then musicians of later generations seem to think that marketing and commercialism is the only way. So we get lots of money making projects and minimal transmission experiences. Some but not enough.

If commercialism is the best place for folk music why then its it that after all this work and time people know fewer folk songs, participate in non-commercial folk culture less and many more folk practices are no longer practiced.

Conrad

Subject: RE: The Concept of FREED Folkmusic
From: Crow Sister (off with the fairies)
Date: 09 Sep 10 - 07:39 AM

"why then its it that after all this work and time people know fewer folk songs, participate in non-commercial folk culture less and many more folk practices are no longer practiced."

Because time moves on and the particular kinds of communities which existed prior to the industrial revolution, within which folk music and song was an everyday part, changed.

Subject: RE: The Concept of FREED Folkmusic
From: Rob Naylor
Date: 09 Sep 10 - 07:59 AM

why then its it that after all this work and time people know fewer folk songs, participate in non-commercial folk culture less and many more folk practices are no longer practiced.

Why is it that you never see horse dung collectors in the streets of our cities any more? Seems to be the preserve of a few enthusiastic amateurs, these days, mainly living in rural areas cultivating roses and relying on fairly infrequent "passing trade"!

Subject: RE: The Concept of FREED Folkmusic
From: Crow Sister (off with the fairies)
Date: 09 Sep 10 - 08:14 AM

"Why is it that you never see horse dung collectors in the streets of our cities any more?"

Hehe!

Subject: RE: The Concept of FREED Folkmusic
From: *#1 PEASANT*
Date: 09 Sep 10 - 09:05 AM

I am absolutely opposed to the notion that we can not return to a configuration of culture of society that supports local family based folk traditions. Stupid coverup to justify the status quo.

There is absolutely nothing stoping people from singing and practicing folk arts and customs at home except the deception which is commercialized music and the conversion of people from practitioners to observers- audience.

The concept of audience started as being localized in the courts of kings, tribal chieftains and warlords, Abots, bishops etc.....Even there in the 17th century and earlier many at court were still practitioners- they played music.

No Way has evolution excluded the possibility of a true cultural revival.

What you may find is that with out a meaningful link to cultures to daily life that the present configuration of rock star style folk music, stages, amplification, recordings and tours will follow the world economy down the tubes and we will be left with an emaciated folk tradition barely able to cope with the silence of the festivals that will occur.

So revival is essential.

What is the impact of the folk event upon the real folk?
Is it working to do the most important work of actually training musicians, installing songs of the past inventory into minds and giving life to the living tradition each and every time.

Or is it simply keeping musicians on the road and minimal profits coming in. All the while the costs limit access to what is basically an entertainment system but its all we got on a large scale.

Sometimes you have to do more than what the audience wants or what professional musicians say they need to what te tradition needs.

What does the tradition need?

Adequate transfer of the culture through generations and the most durable configuration that of a home and culture based rather than a commercial and entertainment based configuration.

We start by guaranteeing access to all for all public events then we make sure that elitism does not govern access to stages and venues and then we bring the audience into the home based culture and out of the performance entertainment chairs.

Conrad

Subject: RE: The Concept of FREED Folkmusic
From: *#1 PEASANT*
Date: 09 Sep 10 - 09:11 AM

Today contemporary folk musicians do a great job of collecting and performing lots of horse dung and people are collecting it....wonder why musicians dont seem to be adequately compensated?

I am always amazed how so called folk musicians supported by volunteers and governments turn up on stages and play new original music almost exclusively. Sure some of it is vaguely folk influenced but sometimes you cant even say that. Seems like false advertising to me.

Folk music can not be like rock or other genres it is more like classical music. We have an obligation to get the old songs into rotation so that they have some sort of chance of a future active life.

I dont mind the occassional song that is new but entire sets and cds doesnt work. Anything goes is not healthy for the treasury off songs that we need to keep living or bring to life.

How can one hope that people learn a song or get into an old tradition if there is no access?

The real crime is that these commercial hit parade types take limited public money under the guise of doing something "Traditional" when clearly this is not the case.

Conrad

Subject: RE: The Concept of FREED Folkmusic
From: GUEST,Morris-ey
Date: 09 Sep 10 - 09:24 AM

As I said ages ago: If you think your concept of free en-masse public performance of folk music will work - go and do it. Go on, go on, go on, go on.

Report back in, say, 9 weeks.

Subject: RE: The Concept of FREED Folkmusic
From: Crow Sister (off with the fairies)
Date: 09 Sep 10 - 09:55 AM

"No Way has evolution excluded the possibility of a true cultural revival."

The folk make different music now, because it's what *they* want to do. People make home-made music in their bedrooms all the time. Kids create new traditions that grow and evolve and have a real community basis. Folk music is essentially a cultural anacronism. It's a fun one with all kinds of interesting history attached, but it died out because the folk didn't want to do it any more. They chose to do other things instead. And they're still doing those other things quite happily, many *in the context of their local communities*. Kids should have the opportunity to learn about their folk arts heritage at school and we aught to be able to access the archives to this common heritage easily too, because it's a valuable part of understanding our own cultural and social history. But history is what it is. You're bodging together together 1960's ideology with pre-industrial revolution traditional arts, and attempting to impose that hybrid on contemporary society which - last time I looked - is far too busy with the business of evolving myriad new musical cultures and creative movements to be likely to want to stop and turn the clock back now. The only way that's going to happen is a) if we get some ideologically fanatical dictator in power who crushes all new music and arts with a jackboot, or b) if the only thing left standing after WWIII is Cecil Sharp house.

Subject: RE: The Concept of FREED Folkmusic
From: GUEST,Ralphie
Date: 09 Sep 10 - 09:58 AM

Hey Conrad...Calm down.
You sound like you're about to implode!
Here in the UK, the "revival" (or the "continuation" to refer to it in it's proper context) of the traditions of this fair land (Song/Dance/etc) is doing just fine and dandy thank you.
You seem to have a problem with the locality in which you reside.
Sorry to tell you pal. But everything is absolutely fine on this side of the pond. Never been better in fact. Loads of youngsters coming through, building their own take on the traditions that have gone before.
You must be living in one really sad place. Try moving.
(But not this way)

Subject: RE: The Concept of FREED Folkmusic
From: Surreysinger
Date: 09 Sep 10 - 10:51 AM

Conrad - I find each sentence of yours requires a great deal of consideration to get any sense from it, but it would appear that from a couple of recent posts you consider that it is necessary to preserve and transmit the old music and songs intact for the future at any cost... and that modern,contemporary composed songs taint the scene. (I may be wrong in this).

If so,I think you ignore the fact that singers (certainly on this side of the pond) in the nineteenth century and since made and make no distinction between the types of music that they sing. If a song is a good one, it joins the repertoire. Indeed many songs that are now in the repertoire of those considered source singers in the UK found their initial place on the music hall stage in the 19th and 20th centuries, and live cheek by jowl with earnest ballads of much longer pedigree, lyrical ballads composed in the 19th century, broadside ballads plyed on the streets and sung to (then) modern tunes. Search the repertoire of a 19th century singer like Henry Broadwood and you can find ballads in modal format, alongside the likes of "Woodman spare that tree". What, as far as I understand it, you are trying to do is preserve (in aspic) the old songs as if they are a compartmental entity in their own right - which they ain't.

As Ralphie said, things on this side of the pond are working nicely ... evolving in whatever manner the younger element of the folk movement sees fit, and as they always have done.

Subject: RE: The Concept of FREED Folkmusic
From: catspaw49
Date: 09 Sep 10 - 11:29 AM

Things ain't all that bad in the USA either. The main thing that is fucked up over here is Conrad.


Spaw

Subject: RE: The Concept of FREED Folkmusic
From: GUEST
Date: 09 Sep 10 - 11:45 AM

This thread kind of reminds me of the man with a congregation of just 50 people who is getting international media attention because he's going to burn the Koran. If everyone just ignored these bozos, they would go away. Telling them, repeatedly, that they are bozos gives them the attention they crave. Arguing their points with them leads them to believe that they have an argument worth actually considering.

Is anyone likely to take on board Conrad's manifesto, and shit in a hedge with 30 other people in order to listen to a bloke who lives down the road? Nope. Instead, we will all continue to do what we love to do in the way(s) we love to do it. Is reiterating this fact going to get him to change his tune? Nope. So why not just leave him to it?

Subject: RE: The Concept of FREED Folkmusic
From: Crow Sister (off with the fairies)
Date: 09 Sep 10 - 11:50 AM

Surreysinger: "As Ralphie said, things on this side of the pond are working nicely ... evolving in whatever manner the younger element of the folk movement sees fit, and as they always have done."

Yes, yes. I didn't intend to dismiss the 'new revival' or however people prefer to identify what's going on now with the twenty-sumthing trad. folkies who have arisen in the wake of the relative *commercial* successes of certain key figures in the current folk revival music scene.

As Surreysinger says, new people on the block, new interpretations happening all over the shop. Including Jim Moray's rap version of Lucy Wan. Of course rap, as musical art, is as much of a home-made community tradition as any folk art can be..

As a side note, Rap first appeared as a distinct cultural phenomenon during the late Seventies, while around the same time the hippies (with their free music festivals) were in the process of becoming yet another cultural anacronism.. ;-)

Subject: RE: The Concept of FREED Folkmusic
From: Crow Sister (off with the fairies)
Date: 09 Sep 10 - 12:20 PM

"Is anyone likely to take on board Conrad's manifesto, and shit in a hedge with 30 other people in order to listen to a bloke who lives down the road? Nope."

Yeah, I would actually. But only if you took shitting in the hedge outa the equation. Nuh, uh! Too many dodgy piles of 'leaves' after the end of the week for my liking..

The biggest problem I have with Conrad's postings is the bombast, the irrational hating on pro. artists (who as far as I can tell barely scrape a living and only do it for the love of sharing the music itself), and the absence of detailed practical advice for anyone wanting to emulate his supposed example.

Subject: RE: The Concept of FREED Folkmusic
From: Smokey.
Date: 09 Sep 10 - 12:44 PM

GUEST,Ralphie - Thanks, but I'm all too familiar with 'WaV, the entity', I was more wondering what makes them do it, and why I'm daft enough to get drawn into it.

Conrad has now discovered that he gets more constant attention if he insults people/groups - watch this space..

Subject: RE: The Concept of FREED Folkmusic
From: catspaw49
Date: 09 Sep 10 - 01:13 PM

Personally, I like them both as they give me the chance to call them assholes in many different ways and it pays to stay in practice. Yeah, I know....both are easy targets as they aren't too bright and have a compensated low self-esteem but I don't care as long as I'm having fun, fuck them! Well, maybe that's going too far........I doubt even Conrad's wife goes THAT far............

Spaw

Subject: RE: The Concept of FREED Folkmusic
From: catspaw49
Date: 09 Sep 10 - 01:15 PM

and 400