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The Concept of FREED Folkmusic
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Subject: RE: The Concept of FREED Folkmusic From: John P Date: 28 Sep 10 - 02:33 PM It's so interesting to find a joke thread above the line. I work for a small company that makes folk instruments. I'm so glad that we can lower our prices and get more business! Why didn't we ever think of that? Oh wait, we have beginner instruments that are already very inexpensive, so maybe we already thought of that. We also make expensive instruments -- I think Conrad wants us to start giving them away so we can spread the availability of instruments to those who can't afford them. Of course, if we do that, in less than two months we won't be here at all, and there won't be any more instruments to give away . . . This IS a joke thread, right? |
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Subject: RE: The Concept of FREED Folkmusic From: Don Firth Date: 28 Sep 10 - 02:47 PM Conrad, it's patently obvious that I know a great deal more about marketing and economics than you do. Not only do I know the driving forces behind it, over the years I have observed it in actual practice. Perhaps your idea of the way economics works accounts for the fact that, as you said, you are a conservative Republican. Or maybe the fact that you are a conservative Republican accounts for your screwed up ideas about the way economics works. When the demand for guitars and such suddenly increased in the late Fifties and through the Sixties and on, Martin, Gibson, and the other guitar companies found an opportunity to maximize their profits by both increasing production—and raising the prices of their instruments. A lot of NEW companies sprang up to take advantage of of the new interest, and although they tried to keep their prices more attractive than those of the "Big Boys," for a cheap Japanese-made copy of a Martin Dreadnaught, you had to pay much more than what a genuine Martin D-model used to cost. (Lest I be misunderstood, there are now Japanese-made guitars that are at least as good as the best American, and for that matter, Spanish-made quitars. It took them a few years to get there, but they make some really fine instrument. But again, that's another discussion.) INCREASED DEMAND ALWAYS RESULTS IN INCREASED PRICES. AND NEITHER AGGRESSIVE MARKETING NOR INCREASED PRODUCTION CHANGES THAT FACT. EVERY BUSINESS SEEKS TO MAXIMIZE ITS PROFITS AND IF THE OPPORTUNITY IN THE FORM OF INCREASED DEMAND PRESENTS ITSELF, THEY WILL TAKE IT. As I said, that's a BASIC principle of economics that is taught in freshman economics and business management classes. And, Conrad. The way you keep trying to spread lies and misinformation about professional singers (who do more to create interest in folk music than a whole army of people like you—who are actually counterproductive—and how much money they make and can afford to spend, YOU are the one who is being NASTY. Don Firth |
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Subject: RE: The Concept of FREED Folkmusic From: Tootler Date: 28 Sep 10 - 05:11 PM Your entire concept that some how people are genetically fixed with a music gene and it never can change is really really funny! I'm at a loss to understand how you can deduce this from a couple of posts that make the perfectly reasonable point that different people have differing musical tastes. Has it ever occurred to you that the role you are casting for folk music is one which folk musicians do not wish to take on. We are involved in folk music because it gives pleasure and speaks to us, but I do not wish it to become some kind of educational tool. That's the way to kill any interest in the music. I know of musicians who go into school, but they go to teach the children music (in its broadest sense) and they use folk music because it happens to be what they do and enjoy and they wish to share this with the children and hopefully enthuse them so they will want to take part in music for its own sake, not as some tool to teach History or English or whatever. As far as I'm concerned it's much more important that kids develop an interest in music than they specifically wish to be involved in folk music. If you can get people wanting to sing and play and not just to be passive recipients of what the music business foists on them, then that's great. The musical genre they take an interest in is secondary. Of course I hope that some will develop an interest in folk music, but it's just as valuable if they develop an interest in classical music or jazz or rock. It's all music. |
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Subject: RE: The Concept of FREED Folkmusic From: Howard Jones Date: 28 Sep 10 - 05:19 PM Concertina makers have been trained - the number of makers has maybe tripled from 30 years ago. You could still probably count the number of makers of quality instruments worldwide on the fingers of two hands. They're complicated instruments requiring a great deal of skill and craftsmanship, and you cannot easily train up new makers, even if the economics allowed them to be paid a reasonable wage while learning. In the meantime, demand has shot up so that concertinas now fetch ludicrously high prices. As Don has pointed out, and high school economics teaches, demand INCREASES prices, which only fall again if supply can also increase to match it. For some products, such as concertinas, increasing supply is difficult. The music industry spends a fortune advertising and promoting new music and new performers. They know their market. If they thought there was a widespread demand for folk music, or that they could create one, don't you think they would have done so? Oh and those guys on Madison Avenue will want paying, and they'll want to be paid a lot. How do you reconcile that with your "free" concept? |
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Subject: RE: The Concept of FREED Folkmusic From: Ralphie Date: 28 Sep 10 - 07:21 PM To add a postscript to Howards post above. I've had a think about the number of new concertinas being made in the UK over the next 5 years. (By Mssrs Dipper and Dickinson) Total.....50....Max! And they have already been ordered. (I'm on Mr Dippers list somewhere!) Sadly there is no-one out there to take their place when they take their well deserved retirement. Conrad, If you could see the work that skillfull artisans have to have to produce magnificicent instruments (This includes Luthiers and many other independent instrument makers) and living on the breadline at the same time, maybe...just maybe...You would understand. Far more important and influential people than me on this thread have wasted our time trying to convince you that, not only are your ideas wrong, but also unneccessary. We'll all just carry on, sharing and enjoying each others music, in whatever country we live in. You, meanwhile, you can stay in Baltimore (?) where you seem to be persona non grata. (Look it up. It's Latin) The rest of the musical world seems to be doing pretty nicely, thank you. I would advise you to go out and practice what the rest of us have been doing for decades. Then post your recordings on the web. Then we can truly hear just how brilliant you are. |
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Subject: RE: The Concept of FREED Folkmusic From: catspaw49 Date: 28 Sep 10 - 07:42 PM Conrad has no concept of quality or value. He offers us his pathetic eccentricity as if it is somehow worth something more than a cowflop. His trash-laden clunkers are not art at all. They are a novelty. Nothing is in any way "art" about them. Cars can be art, witness the Jaguar E-Type permanently a part of the Museum of Modern Art. That car IS art! Conrad's cars are rolling shitpiles. The fact he purports them to be art says much about him. Once again he is a failure pushing his worthless shit as something valuable.......... Spaw |
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Subject: RE: The Concept of FREED Folkmusic From: *#1 PEASANT* Date: 28 Sep 10 - 08:08 PM re hymns it is important to note that although the oral tradition is in sad disrepair (because people hire pros and play recordings of pros rather than do it themselves) There is a way back and it is via the printed page. I discovered that when I visited a few german american groups where only the old timers knew the lyrics to the popular drinking songs. At big events new people would gather enjoyed the food and bier and wished they could join in. So they werent very interested in coming back. I edited and published a songbook and when provided with this things turned around. A simple song sheet- you can get four or so sets of lyrics and a few adverts on a standard piece of paper. Once you hand it out people can sing along and better still they can take it home and learn it whereas without it they just went home with a good feeling- why not do both.... Teaching songs is far more important than simply teaching a demand for songs. I did not say employ madison avenue I just said use their methods- yes people can be convinced to learn and take up music. A fact. But you have to work at it. And no it does not have to cost money. Just make it a teachable moment and provide maximum access. You concertina folks are hard to educate. The problem with high prices is lack of supply. That is well made supply. The reason for that is that supply has not expanded. It is hard to train makers but if you dont train them you will never keep up with the demand and keep them affordable. Capitalism works against increasing demand as the makers are having a good time enjoying high prices and why should they teach someone- so that the supply could increase and the price fall. Same with pro musicians. Why would they teach everyone to sing and play- the result would be that there would be less demand for professional services. More people would be doing it themselves. I am a santa- in demand. however a big problem is that someone finds a fat uncle out there and gets them a suit- more supply cheaper- and why should they get a pro santa when they have the free fat uncle. More artisans more concertinas and the price falls You teach them to do quality work of course.... A good number of prominent museums have artcars- czech out American Visionar Art Museum in Baltimore, Houston Artcar Museum, I think even the met has one and the Smithsonian several. Set up an artcar thread and I will join in.... Conrad |
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Subject: RE: The Concept of FREED Folkmusic From: Smokey. Date: 28 Sep 10 - 08:14 PM Capitalism works against increasing demand What utter bollocks. |
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Subject: RE: The Concept of FREED Folkmusic From: *#1 PEASANT* Date: 28 Sep 10 - 08:18 PM Forgot to mention that I spent Monday morning with a camera person doing a video for A Washington DC ABC Television affiliate. She had me discuss my philosophy, origins, and each of the cars and work space then I did a trip up charles street with handy car to get the wondrous reactions, and photo shoots. She was amazed. Dont know the date yet but information might be here at some point http://www.tbd.com/ tbd.com In case you are fascinated by the ART! Conrad |
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Subject: RE: The Concept of FREED Folkmusic From: The Fooles Troupe Date: 28 Sep 10 - 08:40 PM John P "We also make expensive instruments -- I think Conrad wants us to start giving them away so we can spread the availability of instruments to those who can't afford them." I'm a multi-instrumentalist who is always keen to take up new instruments I don't already play - but I'm on a disability pension these days, so I can't afford to buy nay more - so just send them all to me and I will love you for ever and ever! ... long after you are out of business.... :-) |
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Subject: RE: The Concept of FREED Folkmusic From: Don Firth Date: 28 Sep 10 - 10:11 PM Spanish luthiers, who make some of the finest classic guitars in the world, have apprentices whom they are teaching to make guitars. Sakurai Kohno apprenticed himself to Spanish guitar maker Arcangel Fernandez, then returned to Japan with the knowledge he received from Fernandez, and is now making some of the finest classical guitars in the world—in Japan. In San Diego, a fellow named Sam Radding, who ran a guitar repair shop, taught a high school student who wanted to make himself a guitar in high school wood shop how to make a guitar. The high school student's name was Bob Taylor. Bob Taylor, with the knowledge he picked up from Sam, went on to start the Taylor guitar company. Sam, in turn, retired from the repair shop and is now building high quality travel guitars. Incidentally, in addition to his regular model guitars, Taylor also makes travel guitars. Sam taught his own competition. I have taught literally hundreds of people to play the guitar, taught them folk techniques, how to work out good, appropriate accompaniments, where to find songs, research them, and sing them well. Some of my former students wound up singing in some of the same coffeehouses where I often sang. I taught my own competition. A few years after she took her first guitar lessons from me, a young woman and I began singing concerts together. And she also sang solo concerts. She married and move out of state many years ago, but last I heard, she was still singing. And she was doing some teaching. Many of my former students went on to singing professionally. And many of them are teaching. Professionals ARE passing their knowledge and expertise on to beginners all the time, whether it be in instrument making or music making. ALREADY BEING DONE. AND HAS BEEN FOR A VERY LONG TIME. So, Conrad—what are you beefing about? Don Firth |
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Subject: RE: The Concept of FREED Folkmusic From: *#1 PEASANT* Date: 28 Sep 10 - 11:02 PM Hey don you are in the minority good soul that you are. Most pros dont do this and I know them and watch them basque at the swimming pools and play their gigs and head to the hills at festivals. I had a good friend and her group do that to me. Woops we cant stay....gotta run.... Good for you don. find some more and make it an industry wide no exceptions standard to meet. if you arrange for instruments to be expensive by not working with the market supply and demand well then.....you are artificially keeping barriers in place . See in this thread people cant get instruments and cant afford them because you wont teach others to make them, increase supply make only a fair realistic income and spread the word. Actually with more production more would have the instruments the demand would grow and you will still be swamped and have to train more competant people all over again. Wondrous yes. Or you can sit on your ass, never train anyone make one or two instruments as you feel like it and keep the prices up as a result and deprive folks of music and expansion. Not good. Hey concertina makers- spread the wealth train and hire others and get the production up, lower individual prices, make more money with volume and stop claiming to be expanding the folk when you are a constriction. Train spread share..... Conrad |
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Subject: RE: The Concept of FREED Folkmusic From: frogprince Date: 28 Sep 10 - 11:07 PM "I did not say employ madison avenue I just said use their methods" Madison avenues method is creating very expensively produced ads, and placing them in very expensive print media and on extremely expensive broadcast media. They go to great lengths figuring out how to make people imagine that they need lot of the unnecessary crap they promote. So, we won't use Madison avenue; we'll just create our own ads and pay a fortune to put them on television, radio, and browser pages. |
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Subject: RE: The Concept of FREED Folkmusic From: catspaw49 Date: 28 Sep 10 - 11:19 PM An Artcar museum???? LMAO.....Wow.....Really impressive if you're equally impressed with the orange peel museum or the modern turd museum. You are a so far off base you have left the ball park. Spaw |
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Subject: RE: The Concept of FREED Folkmusic From: Don Firth Date: 29 Sep 10 - 12:31 AM You miss the point, Conrad. I am NOT in the minority. I am only one of MANY who have done and are doing the same thing. Richard Dyer-Bennet started his "School of Modern Minstrelsy" in Aspen, Colorado, where he taught quite a number of people who went on make careers for themselves. Tom Glazer was on of his students as was Will Holt and William Clauson. And I believe Glenn Yarborough also studied with him. Frank Hamilton, who often posts on this forum, is a professional performer. He was one of the founders of the Old Town School of Folk Music in Chicago, where he taught many people who went on to perform professionally themselves. I've met a number of his former students. Guy Carawan, a confrere of Frank Hamilton's, has done many concert tours and a number of records, and he teaches at the Highlander Folk School in Tennessee. I learned a great deal from Rolf Cahn, who concretized, and taught guitar to a large number of people (including me) in Berkeley, California, and in Cambridge, Massachusetts. I can hear a lot of Rolf Cahn's teaching in quite a number of well-known singers. Pete Seeger has probably done more to spread interest in folk music that any other person. My old friend Bob Nelson concertizes quite actively, and he has taught guitar in both private lessons and in classes. He also has a whole series of classes relating folk music to American history, which he has given at several schools. And on and on and on and on. . . . In addition, large numbers of well-known and not so well-known professional singers have made songs from their repertoires available to anyone who wants them buy publishing song books. Richard Dyer-Bennet, Tom Glazer, Joan Baez, Judy Collins, Gordon Bok, Theodore Bikel, and how many more? I lose count, and I have many of their song books on my book shelves. And this, in addition to all the records these people have done, from which one can learn songs. I've learned many songs from these song books and records, as have most of the currently active singers. It's OUT there. And readily available to ANYONE who WANTS it. Really, Conrad, you should LEARN SOMETHING ABOUT WHAT'S ACTUALLY GOING ON before you start criticizing people. You simply DO NOT KNOW WHAT YOU ARE TALKING ABOUT. Don Firth |
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Subject: RE: The Concept of FREED Folkmusic From: Don Firth Date: 29 Sep 10 - 12:55 AM Use Madison Avenue's methods? Somehow, the idea of trying to market folk music like Coca-Cola leaves a bad taste in my mouth, as well as having a tendency to rot my teeth. No, thank you! Don Firth |
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Subject: RE: The Concept of FREED Folkmusic From: The Fooles Troupe Date: 29 Sep 10 - 01:07 AM "watch them basque at the swimming pools" Basque? Basque? The mind boggles.... If Conrad actually did get a degree at a real university, how much was deducted for his inability to communicate his ideas in assignments due to willfully insisting on wrong spelling? |
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Subject: RE: The Concept of FREED Folkmusic From: Don Firth Date: 29 Sep 10 - 01:36 AM I've never studied the history of the Basque people myself, but I was once told about a period in history when the Basques revolted against the Spanish. In and effort to put down the rebellion, the Spaniards trapped a group of Basque rebels in a castle. The rebels were grossly outnumbered and had absolutely no hope of emerging alive if they engaged in a direct battle with the Spanish. But they did not despair. They knew that there were several secret tunnels out of the castle which would allow them to elude the Spanish entirely. They could have split up so that groups of them could escape through different tunnels out of the castle, but their leader decided that it would be better if they all took the tunnel that led them out to a secret route across the Pyrennes Mountains, so they could escape into France and reorganize there. But disaster struck! The Spanish knew about the tunnel and figured that this is exactly what the Basques would attempt to do. So they intercepted them—and killed them all! The moral of this story is: Don't put all your Basques in one exit. Don Firth (sorry. . . .) |
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Subject: RE: The Concept of FREED Folkmusic From: Ralphie Date: 29 Sep 10 - 02:17 AM Re-visiting this thread is like returning to a car crash. You know you shouldn't, but you can't resist it... I'll stick to concertinas. Conrad. Do you have any idea of the myriad of skills needed to make a fine musical instrument? How to make a reed from a sheet of steel? How to forge the frames into which these reeds fit? How to use rare and expensive woods as the veneer? How to do the delicate tracery on the ends?(Very difficult) How to select and treat the leather needed to make the bellows? Not forgetting a trained musical ear to tune the instrument after having built it. You ask, Nay demand, that these two instrument makers take on apprentices. Well. Two problems there. Firstly. Nobody wants to put in the decades (and I mean decades) of work needed to learn all the necessary skills needed to do it. Secondly. Even if someone did, the makers would have to give up making the few commissions they have on their order books. Steve Dickinson started many years ago working at the original Wheatstone shop,as a part time job. He went on to own the factory (ie. Himself!) I have been privelidged to have spent many hours in the company of Mssrs Dickinson and Dipper. I've always come away shaking my head at the enormity of the artistry and technical brilliance of these guys. Not to mention the years of dedication they have put in to learning their skills. And you have the temerity to turn up with a 10 cent tin whistle and pontificate about how music should be performed? Words fail me. |
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Subject: RE: The Concept of FREED Folkmusic From: Howard Jones Date: 29 Sep 10 - 03:25 AM I'll pick just this one example from the latest mass of drivel: Same with pro musicians. Why would they teach everyone to sing and play- the result would be that there would be less demand for professional services. More people would be doing it themselves. Firstly, as has been explained to you many times, pro musicians are teaching others. Apart from all the examples Don has given, if you glance through just the current threads on Mudcat you'll see that Chris Coe is giving a ballad workshop and Frankie Armstrong a vocal workshop - both events run by just one club. Brian Peters will be giving concertina and melodeon workshops during his next American tour. There are residential weekends all over the country teaching singing and instrumental technique. I could go on. These are just the tip of the iceberg. Every festival I go to has workshops and talks, usually given by professionals. I'm sure it's the same in the US. Secondly, has it escaped your notice that the folk world is already full of people doing it for themselves? Folk clubs, sessions, singarounds, even festivals, 95% of the people performing are non-professional. Only a tiny proportion of the people playing folk music make a living from it, and most of them could make a better living doing something else. In spite of this, there is still a demand for professional musicians? Why? Because they are the best and most innovative performers and so people enjoy seeing them, and the non-professional musicians take inspiration (as well as learning techniques and songs) from them. You seem to live in a strangely topsy-turvy world where you see everything as the exact opposite of how it really is. |
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Subject: RE: The Concept of FREED Folkmusic From: Will Fly Date: 29 Sep 10 - 03:28 AM I'll add a brief example of instrument-making reality to expose Conrad's stupidity: I have a very good friend who makes guitars, mandolins and bouzoukis - even the odd lute - and he's a wonderful maker - been making these things since his teens. He retired from his main job some years ago and makes instruments more as a hobby than a profession. He can only make so many in year. Fact. He has all the right machinery, woods and skills for making good instruments by hand. If he can make 6-8 guitars in a year, he's doing well. He charges around $1,800 US (I'm converting from GB sterling here) per guitar - wonderful value for what he produces. Do the mathematics: 8*$1,800 = $14,400 a year. Could you live modestly on that? Suppose you want to live decently - suppose you'd like to live on $24,000 a year? Work out the guitar price - oh, and add on the cost of raw materials... He lives in an area of Sussex (UK) where there are many good luthiers - who, freely and happily, advise each other on technique, swap ideas and are generous of experience and thought. Only the really expensive makers - with 3-year waiting lists and high prices - high prices because they want to exist - can more or less make a living from it. Otherwise the bread and butter is repairs, set-ups, refurbishments, etc. I know one local extremely skilled guitar techie - used to do set-ups for Eric Clapton, Andy Summers, etc. - who gave up making guitars some years ago. Not economically viable. Couldn't compete with the factories... Now he concentrates on the repair and set-up side of the business. It's pretty obvious that you know absolutely nothing of the practical and real economics of instrument-making. |
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Subject: RE: The Concept of FREED Folkmusic From: Ralphie Date: 29 Sep 10 - 04:01 AM Conrad There is a well known phrase. When you are in a hole....Stop digging. There is no one (as far as I can tell) on this thread who agrees with you. You have been given advice as to where you are wrong in your thinking, sometimes inappropriately (for which I apologise BTW), But the reality is that you just will not listen to the truths that 99% of posters here have told you. Don't you ever think that you could possibly be wrong? The rest of the world seems to be reasonably content with the way that we understand and appreciate music. Deal with it! |
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Subject: RE: The Concept of FREED Folkmusic From: Rob Naylor Date: 29 Sep 10 - 04:39 AM Ralphie: Firstly. Nobody wants to put in the decades (and I mean decades) of work needed to learn all the necessary skills needed to do it. This seems to be the case with many artisan trades or professions. The firm I use locally for plaster-work as I'm renovating my (modest, semi-detached, late Victorian) house does wonderful work. Their craftsmen can "throw up" sections of ornate new coving/cornicing in-situ to blend un-noticeably with the existing Victorian stuff. They work on the ornate plaster ceilings of local stately homes etc, and are not cheap. They'd LOVE to spread the knowledge of their techniques, as the youngest person in the firm is the owner's son, at 40. The rest are in their late 50s and 60s. They regularly take on young apprentices. These people NEVER stay beyond the point where they've learned to plaster a nice flat wall. They leave and set up as jobbing plasterers working on simple basic plastering of flat walls in new housing developments or renovations. As the owner's son says: "Can't blame them,there's no point in them spending another 5 years learning all the ornate stuff, because they can earn far more, on an hourly basis, throwing up flat walls than they'll earn doing a complicated job that requires special skills, and artistry. They're interested in income, not artistry". I can vouch that Will's friend does wonderful work, with limited resources, in a tiny workshop. I also know that the other local luthiers he mentions help and advise each other, and even suggest other makers who may be able to deliver a "bespoke" instrument earlier or more cheaply than they could. But I reckon Will's mate could earn far more being the "guitar tech" at our local music shop where the "bread and butter" seems to be changing strings for people who can't be bothered to do it themselves and are willing to pay someone else to do it. As someone else said, re-visiting this thread is a bit like feeling compelled to return to the scene of a car-crash. Conrad's got certain ideas "hard-wired" into his head that bear no relation to reality, and nothing anyone can say will sway him from his dogmatic and ill-thought-out positions. But it's still entertaining reading the posts of Don and several others :-) |
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Subject: RE: The Concept of FREED Folkmusic From: Ralphie Date: 29 Sep 10 - 05:57 AM Rob. Totally agree. It's a sad reflection on humanity that a lot (not all) of youngsters are just looking for the quick buck. Whether it be instrument makers, buiders, whatever. A craftsman is a craftsman. Period. Years of training, even more years of honing their skills. Mainly surviving on a minimum wage. for maximum hours. I'm so pleased that this thread has moved slightly away from Conrads deranged ravings. Let's celebrate the artisans of this world, who against all odds, provide instruments (or other services) that are objects of beauty. If you've ever seen a Dickinson or Dipper concertina.....Your jaw would drop! Looking at Conrads cars, my jaw dropped too. Sadly, not for the same reason. |
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Subject: RE: The Concept of FREED Folkmusic From: Howard Jones Date: 29 Sep 10 - 06:20 AM Conrad seems to believe that everyone should know some songs. Nothing wrong with that, but when you think about it, it's misguided. Of course musicians believe that music is important and everyone should share it, but the same can be said for many other things. Others might say that everyone should learn to ride a horse, or climb a mountain, or paint a picture. People can't do everything, and more importantly they don't want to do everything. Folkies believe the tradition is important, but most people couldn't care less. They make their own traditions. If some of the old traditions add something to their lives - Christmas carols, for example - then they'll keep them, although possibly in an adapted form, if not they'll drop them. They won't keep traditions alive simply because someone else believes it's good for them. If people do want to learn songs it's easier than ever, since so many lyrics and performances are on line. Obscure song books can be found and ordered online from anywhere in the world. Or you can ask on a forum and someone will come up with the lyrics, tune, and even chords. Conrad's other problem seems to be that he believes everything is easy. You want to attract people to folk music? Easy. Research new material or write new songs? Easy. Find someone to provide land for a festival and donate portaloos for free? Easy. He doesn't say who should be doing all this - it's always someone else, not him. Neither does he explain how it's to be paid for, since according to him the music must be free. So who pays for the advertising space, who pays for the songsheets to be printed? Not his problem - he's the ideas man, don't trouble him with details. In particular, don't trouble him with the detail that his ideas won't work and may actually be counter-productive. |
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Subject: RE: The Concept of FREED Folkmusic From: Surreysinger Date: 29 Sep 10 - 07:40 AM > If you've ever seen a Dickinson or Dipper concertina.....Your jaw would drop! >Looking at Conrads cars, my jaw dropped too. Sadly, not for the same reason. Having succumbed to car crash fever - agreed on both points Ralphie. |
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Subject: RE: The Concept of FREED Folkmusic From: Ralphie Date: 29 Sep 10 - 07:46 AM Actually Howard. You are wrong in one teensy weensy respect... It is up to the rest of us (The majority!) to...(quote) "trouble him with the detail that his ideas won't work and may actually be counter-productive." Anyone. from any country who believes in the relevance of music/song/dance, should vehemently refute his views. Of course his ideas won't work. Of course they will be counter productive. Of course he obviously knows nothing about the real world. Which is exactly why the good people on this thread have pushed it into the 800 plus mark. Unlike Conrad, the rest of us care deeply for our traditions. Yanks Brits Aussies.... Whoever. What do you think Conrad holds precious? Free entertainment? Free beer? Free food? Free woods to shit in? Have yet to hear an example of his multi-faceted musicianship? (Actually, having heard WAV, I'd rather not!) Come on Conrad. Buy a microphone and let us hear how brilliant a performer you are..... |
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Subject: RE: The Concept of FREED Folkmusic From: Ruth Archer Date: 29 Sep 10 - 07:50 AM Conrad, answer me this: why is it okay for you to be begging for donations to help fund your "art" all over your website, while at the same time you abhor festivals and events that benefit from public subsidy? Are there no poor people in Washington or Maryland or wherever it is that you live? No unemployed? Would those people not benefit far more from the goodwill of philanthropic donors, and is that not a more urgent need than you being able to buy another rubber hand or garden gnome to stick on a car? So if it's okay for you, how come it isn't for other festivals and events? I like the way you self-style yourself a "visionary artist". If I call myself the Lady Mayoress of Tunbridge Wells, does that make it true? |
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Subject: RE: The Concept of FREED Folkmusic From: The Sandman Date: 29 Sep 10 - 07:54 AM I dont agree with Conrad, but I dont understand why people have to be so rude on the internet. |
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Subject: RE: The Concept of FREED Folkmusic From: Ruth Archer Date: 29 Sep 10 - 07:58 AM Oh look - more dirty commerce from Conrad's website: "Note: We are not a rental car company. We are a family that has to take the time to attend your event and keep the bills paid. If we do not charge reasonable fees to cover expenses then we go further into debt. We have been there, done that, no fun!...Payment is due when we arrive at the event. You can pay us in advance or when we get there. Why?- because we have had people who did not pay us as promised! Yes it happens!" So how come it's okay for Conrad to charge a fee for driving around an event in one of his cars, but musicians who have spent years perfecting their craft ought to be giving their services for free? After all, isn't a musician charging a fee to keep the bills paid and to prevent themselves going into debt? Do I smell a hypocrite...? |
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Subject: RE: The Concept of FREED Folkmusic From: *#1 PEASANT* Date: 29 Sep 10 - 08:16 AM You do not have to use expenive methods to do better at selling folk music to those who are not yet involved. You wont do it by finding reasons to maintain barriers. I played with Guy when in Knoxville a few times. Yes people are doing it but not enough. They need to do it always every time all over. Stop expanding teaching when the people in my neighborhood are all playing and singing. Growth of folk music has been way too slow. Thats right don dont market folk music keep it small and tiny and watch the songs fade from memory. You made my point exactly. Small thinking imposed on folk music. No not for me. Stop standing in the way of the expansion of folk music. Marketing is essential. You have to convince people who are not doing it to do it. That means you make every performance a teaching moment, tolerate less than perfect performances and remove barriers to attendance...... Ralphie you too! Exactly. You claim a shortage of concertinas. You cite high prices due to shortage then you tell me that the makers dont want to train others because they would loose work. Exactly my point. The key to making this folk artifact is training others. Just like pro musicians they want to maintain the shortage. If they have so many orders they cant keep up with them all and people have to wait an extremely long time then who cares about a few lost orders. Also if they cared about the perpetuation of the craft they would also increase teaching on a massive scale. Exactly- folk music folks like basking in the shortage. This is a big barrier to expansion. Howard if there was sufficient teaching and marketing there would be a huge folk music scene everywhere. Far from it. We only came close during the 50s 60s fad times. Why was that maintained if people are doing it right. They arent doing it right and for a few simple reasons pointed out here. Don just stepped in it- he doesnt like marketing. Ralphie says concertina makers want shortages.....Wake up. there is nothing perfect in the status quo and changes pointed out here would be benificial. I have a special spelling -If you dont like my spelling use your own spell czecher on it. The expensive waiting list makers need to take those who have small operations in and train them as needed and do something about the shortage, increase demand, with more demand and avilability they will make more in volume sales. You people are in the hole. And you seem like Don to like being there. The essence of a good craftsman is the ability to pass on the trade and keep apprentices at it. As has been pointed out capitalism discourages this process. Maybe craftsmen should be given education training and personnel development instruction. Conrad |
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Subject: RE: The Concept of FREED Folkmusic From: Howard Jones Date: 29 Sep 10 - 09:35 AM How do you suggest we market folk music to bring people in? More importantly, how do you suggest we pay for this, since under your model we are not allowed to charge for entry? Have you any idea how much advertising space in a newspaper or magazine costs, or how much it costs to print and distribute flyers? In the real world, people market folk music all the time. But they have limited budgets, and spend their money where it will be most effective, directing their advertising to people who already show an interest in folk music. You want every performance to be a "teaching moment". I've come away from every folk performance I've ever been to having learned something, but it wasn't forced down my throat like a lesson, with a songsheet to go away and learn. People go to concerts to see a performance, not to sit through a lesson. As a teacher you should know how easy it is to turn people off by inappropriate teaching. There are plenty of more formal teaching situations where professionals can and do pass on their skills and knowledge. How on earth do you expect to "convince people who are not doing it to do it" if when they do come to a folk concert they are presented with an incompetent, amateurish performance? Why should they take the trouble to sit through it? Cannot you see that poor performance standards are the very worst form of marketing for folk? |
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Subject: RE: The Concept of FREED Folkmusic From: *#1 PEASANT* Date: 29 Sep 10 - 11:22 AM I do publicity as a profession. I have to. If I did no marketing I would not make any progress. Once you do effective, easy marketing things change dramatically. Simple press releases, utilize free calendar services of local media, get them human interest stories for features, invite them to events, Never let anyone go with out a cheap and simple handout or song sheet with information. Plan events ahead. It does not have to be expensive at all. Most media outlets have e.mail contacts. One can send out pr to hundreds in one e.mail never been easiier. Go to schools. The most important pr is making sure at all points that there is the easiest access to the music. Lower or remove costs, be willing to expand. And take advantage of the suggestions above. Dont know your budget but I find quarter page flyers economical. You an always provide song sheets at cost. I used to keep in touch with my volunteers - at one time 100 or more by gluing flyers on stampped post cards which they supplied. Lots of free ways. Access however is an important step. You dont have to make it a lesson. That is an option and sometimes at the right venue it is something for which there is demand. You are correct one has to combine it with entertainment but as a teacher I have hundreds of methods that can slip in education painlessly- all in training but not rocket science. Lots of on line ideas too many to detail. Teaching people to listen is an important task. This takes only a few words of introduction perhaps. However old style folk music sung in whatever way coming from the heart and soul does its own work. Conrad |
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Subject: RE: The Concept of FREED Folkmusic From: Howard Jones Date: 29 Sep 10 - 12:06 PM All the things you mention are only what everyone has been doing for years - like all your other ideas. They may not be expensive, but they still cost. A pack of A4 paper costs around £5 but printing inks are expensive. Professionally printed flyers cost more, but are usually more effective. You still haven't explained how this is to be paid for if the event is free. |
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Subject: RE: The Concept of FREED Folkmusic From: *#1 PEASANT* Date: 29 Sep 10 - 01:49 PM Sometimes you have to invest what you have. If you dont pass along the costs it will work. Almost missed this- There is no need to play expensive instruments. I Drive 1960s cars. Of all my cars I only paid for one. The rest were rescues and donations. They all drive me from a-b and work fine generally. I dont need a bently. That would be simply elitist or extra. I guess the costs of these expensive designer instruments is also passed along the food chain and becomes yet another barrier. Some of you will know the dreaded super whistle debate of ancient times. Same then- I like the sound of the cheaper tin whistles best. Clarkes have a nice breathy quality and arent expensive bamboo whistles are good too. No need to have conspicuous consumption and it should be avoided. Just another quality hang up that keeps the folk world tiny. Conrad |
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Subject: RE: The Concept of FREED Folkmusic From: catspaw49 Date: 29 Sep 10 - 02:17 PM Yeah.....Nothin' like a mediocre or worse player on a piece of shit instrument..............and if the dude sings poorly as well, oh my wonderful turds---what a happy experience we will all have listening! Your piece of shit cars are anywhere from 100 times on up more environmentally damaging but why should you care....They're FREE!!! Well someone is paying the price, just not you! And of course its okay for YOU to charge events for dragging one in but if a guy sells a beer for anything over a buck, he's a rip-off artist. You're a fuckin' moron Conrad. Your responses here bear it out. We're really enjoying you proving it! Spaw |
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Subject: RE: The Concept of FREED Folkmusic From: Don Firth Date: 29 Sep 10 - 02:17 PM "Thats right don dont market folk music keep it small and tiny and watch the songs fade from memory. You made my point exactly. Small thinking imposed on folk music. No not for me. Stop standing in the way of the expansion of folk music. Marketing is essential. You have to convince people who are not doing it to do it. That means you make every performance a teaching moment, tolerate less than perfect performances and remove barriers to attendance......" Conrad, I presume, from the third word in the above quoted paragraph, that this is addressed at me. You're aversion to appropriate capitalization and punctuation tends to make your writing a bit difficult to decipher. You claim to have a degree in Anthropology. I seriously doubt that, because no one who writes like you do could possibly make it through college, or much beyond the sophomore year in high school. You apparently haven't understood a word that I have said. So tell me this—what the f**k are you talking about? I make your point exactly? I should stop "standing in the way or the expansion of folk music?" "Small thinking?" I'm the person who started teaching folk guitar classes in Seattle (not an original idea, but I'm the one who started it here). I did a series of educational television programs on folk music. I have former students out and about spreading interest in folk music by performing and teaching. I am standing in the way of the expansion of folk music? Conrad, dear old one-man-slum, I am the direct antithesis of what you said in that paragraph. And I have told you, and it should be obvious from what many others have said about their own efforts, that I am most certainly not the only one who is doing this sort of thing. What the hell is your problem? Don Firth |
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Subject: RE: The Concept of FREED Folkmusic From: Howard Jones Date: 29 Sep 10 - 02:37 PM So not only are professional musicians not allowed to make a living, they, and people who organise events, must pay for it out of their own pocket. But not you, you won't pay for anything except beer (and as little as possible for that). You expect to get music for free, at other people's expense. You're just a freeloader. It's only "investment" if you expect a return on your money - but according to your model that's not allowed, since we can't charge and everything must be free. Conrad, have you heard of the concept of sustainability? Among other things, it includes doing things in a way which will ensure the future. If we followed your model we'd soon all be broke and folk music would be confined to a handful of people singing in their homes or bars - no more concerts, no more festivals. That seems to be what you want - an impoverished and uniform folk scene instead of the variety and diversity we enjoy today. And you wonder why we don't regard your ideas as progress? You have a very utilitarian view of the world. Yes, a clunker of a car will get you from A to B, but a better quality car will get you there quicker, be more enjoyable to drive, probably be more economical and less polluting. Cheap beer will get you drunk as quickly as expensive beer, but good quality beer is a more enjoyable experience. A cheap instrument will make music, but a quality instrument will sound better, be more responsive, be more musical. A poor singer can sing a song, but a good singer will bring it to life. You care for none of this - for you the cheapest is always the best, and never mind the quality. I find that rather sad - you're missing out on some of the better things in life. |
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Subject: RE: The Concept of FREED Folkmusic From: Don Firth Date: 29 Sep 10 - 04:11 PM My guess is that Conrad can't even tell if something is good quality or not. A totally anesthetized aesthetic sense. And he calls himself a "visionary artist!" I have a friend (whom I haven't seen in years) who is a marvelous artist. His technique is so good and so versatile that he can paint like the Old Masters. And he can also be as abstract as any modern art aficionado could possibly want. Paintings in all media and styles including book illustrations, outrageous cartoons, sculpture in various media (clay, bronze, marble), you name it. He was working on a metal sculture once that involved a lot of metal cutting and welding. As we sat in a restaurant one afternoon having coffee, he held up his hands, which were covered with burns and band-aids for many small cuts. He chuckled and said, "Do you think that anyone would ever tell me that I have 'the hands of an artist?'" When people asked him what he did, he would respond, "I paint." "Oh. You're an artist?" they would say. "Well," Ric would respond, "I paint. Whether I am an artist or not is not for me to say. It's for others to judge." Ric took a dim view of people who claimed they were "artists." "More often than not," he would say, "when someone tells you he's an 'artist,' he's a fraud. It's pretentious to make that claim, and whether they are truly an artist is for others to determine. Beware of anyone who tells you haughtily that he is an 'artist.' Almost assuredly, he's a dauber at best." He also said something that I thought was bloody brilliant! "The most important tool that any artist, poet, or writer has is his waste basket. Not everything you turn out is going to be good. In fact, most of what people do, even the most accomplished and famous artists and writers in the world, is crap! Having the judgment to be able to determine what's good and what stinks is a true artist's most important talent and asset." There are songs that I can't really do very well. So I don't sing them. I leave them to those who can sing them well. For example, my attempts at blues really stink. So I don't try to sing blues. Richard Dyer-Bennet does an absolutely marvelous job on songs that can take a sort of "art song" treatment, like some ballads (Dyer-Bennet can tell a story well, and that's what ballads are all about), and he's bloody brilliant on songs like "The Joy's of Love." But he really should not try to sing songs like "John Henry," "Pay Day at Coal Creek," or "Drill, Ye Tarriers." O would some power the giftie gie us"Visionary artist" indeed!! Don Firth |
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Subject: RE: The Concept of FREED Folkmusic From: John P Date: 29 Sep 10 - 05:10 PM better at selling folk music to those who are not yet involved. You wont do it by finding reasons to maintain barriers. Ah, barriers: It has to be free. There has to be very low-cost alcohol and food. Each performance has to be a learning experience. Skilled performers should be shunned. Spreading the word about folk music is more important than having fun. Expensive musical instruments are a threat to the folk world. Any more barriers you'd care to propose, Conrad? |
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Subject: RE: The Concept of FREED Folkmusic From: GUEST,Ralphie Date: 29 Sep 10 - 05:51 PM OK. Here is an example of sharing across continents. Dear Mr Firth. Send an E Mail to eloisecd@hotmail.co.uk with your address and I will send you (FOR FREE!) a copy of my new CD. It would be a pleasure for me for you to hear it. Conrad.....You can have one too. Difference is that you would have to pay for it. So, thats not going to happen anytime soon is it? |
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Subject: RE: The Concept of FREED Folkmusic From: The Fooles Troupe Date: 29 Sep 10 - 07:08 PM Don, he's always had visions - at least, ever since he swallowed that funny tasting sugar cube .... |
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Subject: RE: The Concept of FREED Folkmusic From: The Fooles Troupe Date: 29 Sep 10 - 07:20 PM "I have a special spelling -If you dont like my spelling use your own spell czecher on it." Thank you for your effort in attempting to display your special talent. Sadly The Fooles Troupe is no longer holding auditions. We no longer have an opening, except in the exit. There's too much raw talent out there - uncooked that is. Anyway The Fooles Troupe are thinking of moving on to fresh s too many people shitting in the woods around here - we can bear it no longer. Eye halve a spelling chequer It came with my pea sea It plainly marques four my revue Miss steaks eye kin knot sea. Eye strike a key and type a word And weight four it two say Weather eye am wrong oar write It shows me strait a weigh. As soon as a mist ache is maid It nose bee fore two long And eye can put the error rite Its rare lea ever wrong. Eye have run this poem threw it I am shore your pleased two no Its letter perfect awl the weigh My chequer tolled me sew. We have to move - too much competition around here .... :-P |
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Subject: RE: The Concept of FREED Folkmusic From: The Fooles Troupe Date: 29 Sep 10 - 07:21 PM "I have a special spelling -If you dont like my spelling use your own spell czecher on it." Thank you for your effort in attempting to display your special talent. Sadly The Fooles Troupe is no longer holding auditions. We no longer have an opening, except in the exit. There's too much raw talent out there - uncooked that is. Anyway The Fooles Troupe are thinking of moving on to fresh pastures - too many people shitting in the woods around here - we can bear it no longer. Eye halve a spelling chequer It came with my pea sea It plainly marques four my revue Miss steaks eye kin knot sea. Eye strike a key and type a word And weight four it two say Weather eye am wrong oar write It shows me strait a weigh. As soon as a mist ache is maid It nose bee fore two long And eye can put the error rite Its rare lea ever wrong. Eye have run this poem threw it I am shore your pleased two no Its letter perfect awl the weigh My chequer tolled me sew. We have to move - too much competition around here .... :-P |
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Subject: RE: The Concept of FREED Folkmusic From: Surreysinger Date: 30 Sep 10 - 04:58 AM I scrolled to the bottom of the thread without seeing the name at the top of the last posting, and for a strange moment there I thought WAV had put some of his poetry up ! |
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Subject: RE: The Concept of FREED Folkmusic From: *#1 PEASANT* Date: 30 Sep 10 - 08:53 AM Nothing here but lots of justifications for keeping folk music expensive and limited. Nothing wrong with inexpensive functional instruments. It is really disgusting to see musical instrument snobbery. You dont need perfection at all times. Totally unnecessary. Remove the barriers expand the folk. But as don has stated he wants to keep it small. No advertizing. Just the small group. Conrad |
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Subject: RE: The Concept of FREED Folkmusic From: Howard Jones Date: 30 Sep 10 - 11:47 AM Nothing here but lots of justifications for keeping folk music expensive and limited. Nothing of the sort. There are lots of explanations why folk music is neither expensive or limited. There are lots of justifications here for keeping folk music varied and diverse. There are lots of explanations why your "concept" of free music will ultimately result in less variety, fewer choices and poorer standards. There are lots of explanations why the "barriers" exist only in your imagination. If you value folk music so little that you are not prepared to spend a single cent on it, then I suppose it will seem expensive. However since you put so small a value on what the rest of us value so highly, why should you expect us to make you welcome? Why should should you expect us to dismantle what works for us, simply to accommodate someone who seems to care so little for music and appears to regard it from a purely sociological point of view, or as an accompaniment to his drinking? |
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Subject: RE: The Concept of FREED Folkmusic From: Seamus Kennedy Date: 30 Sep 10 - 12:53 PM Yes! 103 to go! Attaboy Conrad! |
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Subject: RE: The Concept of FREED Folkmusic From: *#1 PEASANT* Date: 30 Sep 10 - 02:01 PM Just because something works for you doesnt mean its right People here would dismiss a good talented musician, playing scarce songs just because he played on a less than most expensive instrument. They would keep poor people from his venues by charging too much for food and drink. Simple- here people have been preserving barriers to the expansion of folk music and are proud of it. From their perspective it doesnt matter as they want to keep it small, scarce, and therefore make more money in the short term. |
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Subject: RE: The Concept of FREED Folkmusic From: Surreysinger Date: 30 Sep 10 - 02:08 PM "People here would dismiss a good talented musician, playing scarce songs just because he played on a less than most expensive instrument."! Eh? Nobody here, as far as I can see,dismisses good and talented musicians ... actually far the reverse. And I find that sentence unintelligible And by the way - 900 if noone else has got there first. |
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