BS: True Test of an Atheist

Subject: RE: BS: True Test of an Atheist
From: GUEST,josep
Date: 02 Oct 10 - 06:20 PM

///Life has whatever meaning *you* choose, josep, not anything handed down from On High, or anything/anywhere else.///

I disagree. I agree with the ancient philosophers/poets who held that humans are composed of six "earthly" element and one "heavenly" one. Mineral, vegetable and meat were the last three and then a seventh came down from above and crowned them off, pacified them, brought them order. It is, of course, our consciousness. Now, of course, this is metaphorical. Consciousness didn't come down from the sky. This perfected being was called "The Prince of Peace." Christians today think it applies to a historical creature from 2000 years ago. It applies to all of us in potential. Jesus Christ is a template of the perfected human--a true prince of peace. You could call him a buddha if you'd like.

This was known to the Ancient Egyptians as Iu-Em-Hetep (Imhotep) or "He Who Comes Seventh" or "He Who Comes to Bring Peace." This was a well-known concept in the times that Christians were proclaiming a historical Christ so Matthew actually has Jesus say, "Think not that I am come to bring peace but a sword." Generations of Christians have puzzled over those words not knowing why the author put them in their savior's mouth. He did it to stop people of his time from saying, "Oh, you mean this Jesus Christ you preach is just the old Imhotep concept rehashed. Right, gotcha."

The true concept is still found in Christmas Carols as "Hark the Herald Angels Sing" and "Joy to the World."

Now you can take the tack of Teilhard de Chardin and say consciousness is inherent in matter and so it wasn't necessary for it to come down from above. I agree with that too. It's how you choose to interpret things.

Subject: RE: BS: True Test of an Atheist
From: GUEST,Guest from Sanity
Date: 02 Oct 10 - 06:21 PM

josep,...Full lyrics for the Ninth:O friends!

Not these sounds!
But let us strike up more pleasant sounds and more joyful!

Joy, o wondrous spark divine,
Daughter of Elysium,
Drunk with fire now we enter,
Heavenly one, your holy shrine.
Your magic powers join again
What fashion strictly did divide;
Brotherhood unites all men
Where your gentle wing's spread wide.
   
The man who's been so fortunate
To become the friend of a friend,
The man who has won a fair woman -
To the rejoicing let him add his voice.
The man who calls but a single soul
Somewhere in the world his own!
And he who never managed this -
Let him steal forth from our throng!

Joy is drunk by every creature
From Nature's fair and charming breast;
Every being, good or evil,
Follows in her rosy steps.
Kisses she gave to us, and vines,
And one good friend, tried in death;
The serpent she endowed with base desire
And the cherub stands before God.

Gladly as His suns do fly
Through the heavens' splendid plan,
Run now, brothers, your own course,
Joyful like a conquering hero

Embrace each other now, you millions!
The kiss is for the whole wide world!
Brothers - over the starry firmament
A beloved Father must surely dwell.

Do you come crashing down, you millions?
Do you sense the Creators presence, world?
Seek Him above the starry firmament,
For above the stars he surely dwells.


Gosh Steve.........You still think he was 'PROBABLY'...(whatever you said)???

GfS

Subject: RE: BS: True Test of an Atheist
From: GUEST,josep
Date: 02 Oct 10 - 06:27 PM

And can you tell what TV program you now hear the opening strain of the 3rd movement?

Subject: RE: BS: True Test of an Atheist
From: Steve Shaw
Date: 02 Oct 10 - 07:10 PM

"I think his 9th Symphony is his crowning achievement. The first symphony ever to contain words which aren't sung until an hour or more into it and what are the first words ever sung? "Not these tones, friends..." What do you think he meant by that?"

Then you haven't heard his last three piano sonatas or the Diabelli Variations or the five late quartets.

The phrase you quote from the symphony is in the manner of an operatic recitative. It is a highly-theatrical reaction to the three previous movements, which, just before the bass sings that line, have been caricatured in brief reprise. The sung line says, in effect, that we must now cast aside the struggles personified in the symphony so far and turn to more joyful considerations. I can't think what else you might be seeing in it. Beethoven is my all-time numero uno hero, but the opening to that finale is, to me, a pretty scruffy, untidy and ill-judged affair. I still love the whole work though.

Subject: RE: BS: True Test of an Atheist
From: Steve Shaw
Date: 02 Oct 10 - 07:24 PM

josep,...Full lyrics for the Ninth...



...Gosh Steve.........You still think he was 'PROBABLY'...(whatever you said)???

He was setting a bloody poem written by somebody else, fer chrissake (Anton Schiller to be precise). Not only that, Beethoven chopped the poem around mercilessly. If you are somehow concluding from this that Ludwig was a God-botherer, you'll have to try a bit harder. Far more scholarly persons than me (and, certainly, than you) have gleaned no more than that Beethoven was, at the most, equivocal about God and religion. He would no more refuse to set a religious or (as in this case) a quasi-religious text than I would refuse to go into Europe's great cathedrals and admire the architecture and stunning religious works of art therein (which I do). Bach's Mass in B minor and Mozart's Great Mass in C minor are among my desert island discs. But if you were to attempt to conclude from this that I was secretly not an atheist at all, you'd be no more than a confounded bloody fool.

Subject: RE: BS: True Test of an Atheist
From: Steve Shaw
Date: 02 Oct 10 - 07:27 PM

That post did not quite come out as I intended but you get the drift.

Subject: RE: BS: True Test of an Atheist
From: Dave MacKenzie
Date: 02 Oct 10 - 08:03 PM

Re Beethoven's 9th.

"No I wrote a completely different poem in German" to quote (approximately) Bert Brecht before the Un-American Committee.

Subject: RE: BS: True Test of an Atheist
From: GUEST,josep
Date: 02 Oct 10 - 08:23 PM

///Then you haven't heard his last three piano sonatas or the Diabelli Variations or the five late quartets.

The phrase you quote from the symphony is in the manner of an operatic recitative. It is a highly-theatrical reaction to the three previous movements, which, just before the bass sings that line, have been caricatured in brief reprise. The sung line says, in effect, that we must now cast aside the struggles personified in the symphony so far and turn to more joyful considerations. I can't think what else you might be seeing in it. Beethoven is my all-time numero uno hero, but the opening to that finale is, to me, a pretty scruffy, untidy and ill-judged affair. I still love the whole work though.////

Typical Steve. He just has to outdo you--he's a skeptic and an atheist after all. If you've done everything once, then by god, Steve's done it twice and then a third time just in case you get any wise ideas about catching up.

Subject: RE: BS: True Test of an Atheist
From: GUEST,josep
Date: 02 Oct 10 - 08:34 PM

And since Steve couldn't find a website that analyzes the 9th symphony that could answer my question about what TV show uses the opening strain of the 3rd movement, he "forgot" to answer it. Countdown with Keith Olbermann.

Subject: RE: BS: True Test of an Atheist
From: Steve Shaw
Date: 02 Oct 10 - 08:34 PM

"Anton Schiller"

I don't know where I got that from. Let's call him Friedrich.

Subject: RE: BS: True Test of an Atheist
From: Steve Shaw
Date: 02 Oct 10 - 08:38 PM

"Typical Steve. He just has to outdo you--he's a skeptic and an atheist after all. If you've done everything once, then by god, Steve's done it twice and then a third time just in case you get any wise ideas about catching up."

Outdo you? Correct you, actually. I did tell you that Beethoven was my numero uno hero. It follows that I've studied the bloke a bit. Maybe you didn't believe me and thought you could spout off about him without challenge. You can't half say silly things.

Subject: RE: BS: True Test of an Atheist
From: Steve Shaw
Date: 02 Oct 10 - 08:42 PM

"And since Steve couldn't find a website that analyzes the 9th symphony that could answer my question about what TV show uses the opening strain of the 3rd movement, he "forgot" to answer it. Countdown with Keith Olbermann."

I don't need websites than analyse the ninth symphony, thanks, and I don't watch daft TV shows, ever. Now are you sure it was actually the opening "strain"? Perhaps the way you worded that is what discouraged me from taking you seriously. Etcetera.

Subject: RE: BS: True Test of an Atheist
From: GUEST,Guest from Sanity
Date: 02 Oct 10 - 08:48 PM

Personally, I sure like Rachmaninoff. Beethoven, too.
Josep, Did you watch the link I posted?

GfS

Subject: RE: BS: True Test of an Atheist
From: Steve Shaw
Date: 02 Oct 10 - 09:04 PM

that analyse

Subject: RE: BS: True Test of an Atheist
From: GUEST,Guest from Sanity
Date: 02 Oct 10 - 11:11 PM

Salty dog.

Lighten up.

GfS

Subject: RE: BS: True Test of an Atheist
From: GUEST,josep
Date: 03 Oct 10 - 11:13 AM

///Josep, Did you watch the link I posted?///

Yes, he's almost as good as me.

Alright, I'm lying. I just wanted to know what it would be like to be able to say that.

His fingers are so fluid and there's no wasted movement. Effortless. He literally could play that zonked out in an alcoholic stupor he knows it so well.

Subject: RE: BS: True Test of an Atheist
From: Slag
Date: 03 Oct 10 - 11:23 AM

OK! That does it! Kick this thread above the line!

Subject: RE: BS: True Test of an Atheist
From: GUEST,Guest from Sanity
Date: 03 Oct 10 - 11:43 AM

Josep, I did notice a couple of clams though....but they flew by so fast ......(really)....But watching him, especially toward the end, is truly inspirational!!!

Glad you enjoyed it!

GfS

Subject: RE: BS: True Test of an Atheist
From: GUEST,josep
Date: 03 Oct 10 - 11:55 AM

I apologize for getting so off-track in this thread but really I don't understand the point of this thread. Why does an atheist need a true test? If you're an atheist, you're an atheist. And why should we expect two atheists to agree about atheism? For me, it's a set of arguments designed to shred theist arguments, which it does quite well. I don't take it any further than that. Others make atheism a virtual belief system: no god, no soul, no afterlife, no nothing. It's whatever floats your little boat.

Subject: RE: BS: True Test of an Atheist
From: GUEST,Guest from Sanity
Date: 03 Oct 10 - 12:14 PM

Josep: "For me, it's a set of arguments designed to shred theist arguments, which it does quite well. I don't take it any further than that. Others make atheism a virtual belief system: no god, no soul, no afterlife, no nothing. It's whatever floats your little boat."

I think that this time, that they're the ones that got shredded...but, it really doesn't matter, there was NOTHING to shred!
They should of thought of that oxymoron*, when one sets out to 'prove a negative'!

*The most common form of oxymoron involves an adjective-noun combination of two words. For example, the following line from Tennyson's Idylls of the King contains two oxymorons:

    "And faith unfaithful kept him falsely true."

GfS

Subject: RE: BS: True Test of an Atheist
From: GUEST,josep
Date: 03 Oct 10 - 01:30 PM

Atheist arguments don't prove a negative; they disprove the theist arguments. Without theism, atheism wouldn't exist. Those who try to make it exist as a stand-alone are not really atheists but rather are material realists who believe atheism proves everything they believe about reality.

Atheism doesn't prove anything. It doesn't even prove god doesn't exist. It merely disproves any theist argument that can be posited and it does it quite easily: every theist argument must presuppose god's existence which is invalid. So all the atheist has to do is locate the presupposition and the argument is disproven.

To go beyond that is to go beyond atheism and so it really isn't atheism anymore but an aggressive material realist stance that calls itself atheism. Atheist means "not theist." That's all it was designed for--a rejection of theism based on the logical fallcy of theist argumentation which is the presupposition of the god's existence in the premise of the argument--an invalid position.

Athism does not prove there no god, no soul, no continuance after death. Anyone who says it does simply does not know what they are talking about.

Subject: RE: BS: True Test of an Atheist
From: GUEST,Guest from Sanity
Date: 03 Oct 10 - 03:30 PM

josep: "Atheist arguments don't prove a negative; they disprove the theist arguments....."

It also does three things, that are somewhat related. One, it pokes holes into certain 'religious' dogma, which were bogus, in the first place. For that, it may make a lightweight religious 'crusader', look a little deeper, maybe even sober them up, and get off their pet doctrines of error...The second, It makes all sides reconsider, their stances, which are often taken for 'comfort' rather than seeking after the 'Truth'!..and thirdly, often, the atheist has abandoned a 'religion', because its bogus doctrines were NOT meeting his needs, nor satisfying, his curiosity for more truth...and that is valid..a valid step, but not the final step.

That being said, the theist/atheist argument will NOT settle anything, that would last!....meaning, if someone can 'talk you into' a 'God', someone or thing can 'talk you out' of it, as well!

Those things are best settled, by an EXPERIENCE, that no one can talk you into, or out of! At least in the debate, hopefully either side, can walk away from it, and be open, to a wider view, of possibilities, that before, might have been closed down, because of the limitations of inconceivable possibilities, that before, might have been ignored....which in turn, opens a door, for maybe a NEW experience!

Methinks you understand.

Regards to you,

GfS

Subject: RE: BS: True Test of an Atheist
From: Slag
Date: 03 Oct 10 - 05:11 PM

Thank you Guest josep! You win the big cigar! That really is the whole point of this exercise. With virtually stereotypical accuracy some individuals in the category, the is CATEGORY of atheism attack the category, a-hem, the CATEGORY of religion. There is no focus nor any attempt to understand just what the individual who has been lumped under the nameplate thinks or believes or why or whether they have some validity their beliefs. And this door swings both ways. It is repugnent to a man of reason to have some cockeyed religious person make a blanket dismissal of all things scientific, theory and practice, without any comprehension of what that may entail. And it is equally repugnent to a person of faith who has made an informed decision based on his life experiences and knowledge to be categorized with those with who he dissagrees, often for the very same reasons the atheist dissagrees.

There is no true test for either category. That is all they are: broad labels that MAY serve to bring awareness but all too often serve to promote non-thinking. Thnak you, thank you, thank you josep.

Subject: RE: BS: True Test of an Atheist
From: Dave MacKenzie
Date: 03 Oct 10 - 05:43 PM

Someone pointed out to me today that a lot of Buddhists are atheists.

Subject: RE: BS: True Test of an Atheist
From: Slag
Date: 03 Oct 10 - 06:05 PM

There is a saying in Zen that "even if you should encounter the Buddha himself and he should detain you on the Road to Enlightenment, slay him!" No, I don't think there is a Western concept of a God in Buddhism per se but there are those who personify the nature of reality and are honored as such, be they, in the Western mind, mythical or historical.

BTW I failed to mention in my preceeding post that my question initially was two pronged. The second aspect has developed admirably as this discussion!

Man always worships something, even if it's himself.

Subject: RE: BS: True Test of an Atheist
From: Dave MacKenzie
Date: 03 Oct 10 - 06:26 PM

"Yet each man kills the thing he loves,
By each let this be heard,
Some do it with a bitter look,
Some with a flattering word,
The coward does it with a kiss,
The brave man with a sword!"

Subject: RE: BS: True Test of an Atheist
From: Steve Shaw
Date: 03 Oct 10 - 06:50 PM

"Atheist arguments don't prove a negative; they disprove the theist arguments. Without theism, atheism wouldn't exist."

Atheist "arguments" neither prove nor disprove anything. Neither do they set out to do so. There is an argument that says atheism does not exist, but I doubt it's an argument you would understand.

"Those who try to make it exist as a stand-alone..."

...and who might they be?

"...are not really atheists but rather are material realists who believe atheism proves everything they believe about reality."

I don't know a single atheist who thinks that atheism proves anything (and I haven't a clue who these "material realists" are). It just goes to show how desperate believers can be to falsely characterise atheism just to suit their arguments. I think it's called Aunt Sallyism.

"Atheism doesn't prove anything. It doesn't even prove god doesn't exist."

Yes, we're making progress...

"It merely disproves any theist argument that can be posited and it does it quite easily: every theist argument must presuppose god's existence which is invalid. So all the atheist has to do is locate the presupposition and the argument is disproven."

..but, oh dear, we've lost it again. There is no proven or disproven on either side. 'T'aint possible.

"To go beyond that is to go beyond atheism and so it really isn't atheism anymore but an aggressive material realist stance that calls itself atheism."

Perhaps you could clarify for me just what these mythical "material realists" do or say that puts them beyond atheism...

"Atheist means "not theist." That's all it was designed for--a rejection of theism based on the logical fallcy of theist argumentation which is the presupposition of the god's existence in the premise of the argument--an invalid position."

Atheism might well mean that in literal translation but atheists are far less than "not theists." You're making the severe mistake, common among non-atheists (God, I love that - gotcha, berstids!!), of trying to define us on religion's territory. I should add the bleedin' obvious, of course: atheism was not designed by anybody for anything.

"Athism does not prove there no god, no soul, no continuance after death. Anyone who says it does simply does not know what they are talking about."

Well, insofar as atheism never has, never will, and doesn't want to, prove anything, I s'pose I'll have to agree. I can't prove that you've been talking bollix in this quoted post, but there's a strong probability that you have been.

Subject: RE: BS: True Test of an Atheist
From: GUEST,Guest from Sanity
Date: 03 Oct 10 - 06:58 PM

What is this???...A re-union of the Three Musketeers???

Just remember, a two edged sword, one side cuts to the bone, the other cuts off the bounds, to freedom...but the POINT, is LOVE!

Regards,
GfS

Subject: RE: BS: True Test of an Atheist
From: GUEST,Ebbie, housesitting
Date: 03 Oct 10 - 07:08 PM

I have decided that GfS's commas are meant to indicate where he stops to take a breath; however, it is most distracting, visualizing the hyperventilation that is going on.

Subject: RE: BS: True Test of an Atheist
From: GUEST,Guest from Sanity
Date: 03 Oct 10 - 07:10 PM

Steve: "Atheist "arguments" neither prove nor disprove anything. Neither do they set out to do so. There is an argument that says atheism does not exist, but I doubt it's an argument you would understand."

Then again, maybe we do,..but YOU don't understand! Atheists, at least in this forum, sure do a lot of projecting hostilities, and their own blindness onto every one else...which if you think about it, you CAN understand....but not willing to understand what that looks like, from the other side of the fence!

There are times in most everyone's life, that they'd rather look the 'other way'....some learn quicker than others, that it might be a comfortable place to visit, FOR A WHILE, but not stay.

Some people's lives don't always remain in bitterness, resentment, unforgiveness, and self absorption. Some people are connected, and know it, to the rest of reality.

Here's To Ya'..Best Wishes and Cheers!

GfS

Subject: RE: BS: True Test of an Atheist
From: GUEST,Guest from Sanity
Date: 03 Oct 10 - 07:13 PM

They are not commas, Sweet Ebbie!
You should read 'shooting scripts' or playwrights. They are an indication of time, usually thoughtful, in nature....you know, THOUGHT-ful????

GfS

Subject: RE: BS: True Test of an Atheist
From: Jack the Sailor
Date: 03 Oct 10 - 07:24 PM

>>Atheism might well mean that in literal translation but atheists are far less than "not theists." You're making the severe mistake, common among non-atheists (God, I love that - gotcha, berstids!!), of trying to define us on religion's territory. I should add the bleedin' obvious, of course: atheism was not designed by anybody for anything. <<

I have to disagree with Steve Shaw.

Everyone I know who self disguises as "athiest" is anti-thiest. Certainly people like Dawkins are.

There may be people who truly don't believe and are neutral about whether or not God exists. But I have neither heard from them or of them.

Subject: RE: BS: True Test of an Atheist
From: Steve Shaw
Date: 03 Oct 10 - 07:58 PM

[Steve: "Atheist "arguments" neither prove nor disprove anything. Neither do they set out to do so. There is an argument that says atheism does not exist, but I doubt it's an argument you would understand."

Then again, maybe we do,..but YOU don't understand! Atheists, at least in this forum, sure do a lot of projecting hostilities, and their own blindness onto every one else...which if you think about it, you CAN understand....but not willing to understand what that looks like, from the other side of the fence!

There are times in most everyone's life, that they'd rather look the 'other way'....some learn quicker than others, that it might be a comfortable place to visit, FOR A WHILE, but not stay.

Some people's lives don't always remain in bitterness, resentment, unforgiveness, and self absorption. Some people are connected, and know it, to the rest of reality.

Here's To Ya'..Best Wishes and Cheers!]


Incomprehensible as ever, but whatever it is you're on I'll have some.

Subject: RE: BS: True Test of an Atheist
From: Steve Shaw
Date: 03 Oct 10 - 08:20 PM

"I have to disagree with Steve Shaw.

Everyone I know who self disguises as "athiest" is anti-thiest. Certainly people like Dawkins are."

Well now, I suppose it depends on whether you'll calling that vast body of the human race who care not a shite either way "atheists" or not. As for the rest of us (the non-silent minority), we have no need to self-disguise (whatever that means: I suppose "delusion" was a bit too harsh for you to say but is probably what you meant). In fact, we tend to take the world as it comes, simple souls that we are, and try not to wrap ourselves in myth, legends, tradition, unquestioningness and, worst of all, faith without evidence. How any believer can accuse atheists of lurking around in disguises after all that lot, well, fails me. As for anti-theist, well some of us shrug and ignore, others like a bit of intellectual banter I suppose (don't criticise us - after all, religion indulges in the stupidest, most disguised banter of all. They call it theology). I'm one of those atheists *and* anti-theists I suppose, and why not. Theism deserves every challenge possible, and if you really have the courage of your convictions you'd laugh us off. I suspect many of you secretly haven't, judging from the worried attacks on atheists every time we stick our heads above the parapet, but I'm only guessing there.   

"There may be people who truly don't believe and are neutral about whether or not God exists. But I have neither heard from them or of them."

That's because we don't "not believe," as I've said several times before. I know how hard it must be for you to accept that we don't actually need to say that "we respect you and your God but it's not for us," but we don't, and most of all we don't engage with what we regard as your far-fetched and highly-improbable notions. Do you believe in fairies at the bottom of your garden (or do you regard my question to be facile and pointless)? I wouldn't engage with that if I were you. So don't be too surprised if we don't engage with your equally-improbable question.

Subject: RE: BS: True Test of an Atheist
From: Jack the Sailor
Date: 03 Oct 10 - 09:11 PM

So it is Banter is it Steve?

You want banter? How is this for banter?

>>>"There may be people who truly don't believe and are neutral about whether or not God exists. But I have neither heard from them or of them."

That's because we don't "not believe," as I've said several times before. I know how hard it must be for you to accept that we don't actually need to say that "we respect you and your God but it's not for us," but we don't, and most of all we don't engage with what we regard as your far-fetched and highly-improbable notions. Do you believe in fairies at the bottom of your garden (or do you regard my question to be facile and pointless)? I wouldn't engage with that if I were you. So don't be too surprised if we don't engage with your equally-improbable question. <<<

Steve in this thread you are certainly anti Christian. You certainly are anti-thiest. You are in fact displaying the classic behavior of an "athiest" as it is usually defined.

But you do not argue as well as many Athiests. Certainly you are not persuasive. You are assume much about me and my beliefs based upon the little I have said. It is evident that you are stereotyping me as a conventional Christian. You are way off base, but you don't let lack of knowledge get in the way of your snarky condescending comments.

Certainly you are not qualified to speak for those who are "neutral about whether or not God exists." You obviously have some great personal interest not only in arguing against God, but in mocking His professed believers.

You can say that you have no religion all you want. But your behavior says otherwise.

Like many of your fellow members of the Church of Empty Nothingness you seem to have plenty of passion and a well defined Dogma but no direction or purpose.

I pray that you release yourself to the Godliness you so obviously crave. Think of Jesus on the Cross paying in blood for your sins.

Barring that, I hope that you try to find release from your obsession with God so that you can banter about Him without quite so much venom. Stress causes physical harm. Why hurt yourself over something in which you do not believe. Do you get as worked up about fairies at the bottom of your garden? I thought not. The true test of an Athiest is the venom in their disbelief.

:-)

Subject: RE: BS: True Test of an Atheist
From: Smokey.
Date: 03 Oct 10 - 09:38 PM

One true test of a Christian is their tolerance of alternative views.

Subject: RE: BS: True Test of an Atheist
From: GUEST,Guest from Sanity
Date: 03 Oct 10 - 09:41 PM

If Steve DIDN'T understand, he wouldn't be so pissed off! It sounds like an obstinate temper tantrum to me. I think down deep, whether he 'believes' or not, is the issue...the problem is that...he really KNOWS, and just as soon forget!

GfS

Subject: RE: BS: True Test of an Atheist
From: The Fooles Troupe
Date: 03 Oct 10 - 10:06 PM

"I pray that you release yourself to the Godliness you so obviously crave. Think of Jesus on the Cross paying in blood for your sins. "

Even though I am prepared to accept that the believer who says this may often genuinely be sincere (as many of my friends are), and want to help, but only in the '"The One Way, or the highway" method, this is still highly offensive intolerance, in the same way as it is to say this to the culture of a Jew, Muslim, Hindu, or even Buddhist or Pagan - but supposedly it is acceptable to the culture of an A-theist. Once my friends are made aware of this viewpoint, they are often embarrassed, but I point out to them that I understand why they say this, having been brought up this way myself, and that such little things are understandable, they realize that I am not offended by such casual social lubrication.

I am reminded of the Buddhist Leader who related how his Teacher reacted when told this - "Thank you very much for that. Nice weather we are having today, isn't it?"

I accept people saying "bless you" when I sneeze, or "that's a good Christian act" when I help someone pick up the packages they have dropped, for they mean well in offering a compliment in the only way they know how.

But when you say what you just did, especially in that sort of intimidating put down context, you are revealing that not only are you multi-culturally insensitive, you are trying to intimidate and control by projecting your own fear, your own guilt for your own sins, so remember as your Own God admonished you, the mote in your own eye before you try to remove the beam from your neighbor. This context is why He said it.

For someone who really does not believe in your particular sky fairy culture, trying to force control by provoking guilt by emotive images of blood and deathly sacrifice is pathetic, if not actually laughable - remember that they do not ascribe to the things you hold most sacred, so you are only insulting the concepts they hold most sacred, in the same way as leering at women and saying "Nice tits, eh?", then responding, "Hey, it was only a compliment!" is only taken as a crude lack of respect - "What part of No can't you understand?".

Subject: RE: BS: True Test of an Atheist
From: Slag
Date: 03 Oct 10 - 10:20 PM

Steve, I believe in unicorns. For argument's sake let's say you don't believe in unicorns. That would make you an "a-unicornist". According to your logic you have just proved the existence of unicorns by not believing in them. This is known as the "deontological argument" in logic and it is ultimately fallacious as I have just demonstrated above. Nice try but no brass ring this time.

God cannot be proved by means of rational argument. Period!

Subject: RE: BS: True Test of an Atheist
From: GUEST,josep
Date: 03 Oct 10 - 10:32 PM

////I don't know a single atheist who thinks that atheism proves anything ////

Well I do.

///...but, oh dear, we've lost it again. There is no proven or disproven on either side. 'T'aint possible.///

Yes there is a disproven. If the atheist counterargument doesn't disprove the theist argument then there is no such thing as reason.

We have rules in debate and one rule is that a conclusion of an argument cannot be contained in the premise. That's loading the argument. So if I expose the presupposition, I have disproven the argument. There's not getting around that.

///Perhaps you could clarify for me just what these mythical "material realists" do or say that puts them beyond atheism...///

I've already stated it if you'd read what I wrote instead of automatically NEEDING to gainsay every goddamn thing I say no matter what it is. I've run into too many people who call themselves atheists who believe that death is final--when you're gone you're gone. That consciousness is produced epiphenomenally from matter and is an illusion and does not survive the death of the body. They believe this is implicit in atheism. And they can NOT admit that it is just a belief no different than a religious belief and that it has nothing to do with atheism. They are so convinced that they are just too logical and intelligent to hold anything other than perfectly reasoned conclusions unlike regular flawed mortals. Don't know anyone like that, you say? Doesn't sound at all familiar, eh?

///Atheism might well mean that in literal translation but atheists are far less than "not theists." You're making the severe mistake, common among non-atheists (God, I love that - gotcha, berstids!!), of trying to define us on religion's territory. I should add the bleedin' obvious, of course: atheism was not designed by anybody for anything.///

Err...um...hmmm...I'm an atheist. I do not accept theism because the atheist counterarguments DISPROVE theist arguments to my satisfaction. If am religious, pray tell what religion I am. I'm dying to know!!

Subject: RE: BS: True Test of an Atheist
From: Jack the Sailor
Date: 03 Oct 10 - 10:43 PM

Foolestroupe
Hmmmmm

I was not addressing a Jew, Muslim, Hindu, or even Buddhist or Pagan, I am simply addressing Steve, not you, Steve. If you feel insulted by that I am sorry that you did not realize I was not speaking generally.

It is Steve that seems so obsessed with Christianity that he seems to need to bully people to keep it away. It is Steve that seems to crave Godliness. It was Steve I was talking to.

-------

I am a little puzzled by your implication that I advocated this. >>>'"The One Way, or the highway" method,<<< as I gave an alternative in the next sentence. I was inviting him to accept Jesus, I said if he could not do that, I was asking him to calm himself and not get so worked up about things he professes not to believe. Being a strident Atheist give one all of the drawbacks of having religion with none of the benefits.

--------

As far as the beam in my eye goes, I just don't see it that way.

I respectfully disagreed with him. He replied with mocking. He called it banter. I am bantering back.

Do you think that he meant for the banter to only go one way?

Subject: RE: BS: True Test of an Atheist
From: Jack the Sailor
Date: 03 Oct 10 - 10:59 PM

"disguises" was a typo"

This is what was meant.

Everyone I know who self >> describes << as "athiest" is anti-thiest. Certainly people like Dawkins are."

Self described Atheism is a fundamentalism and a religion.

Steve Shaw seems to be is a high level practitioner of that religion.

Subject: RE: BS: True Test of an Atheist
From: The Fooles Troupe
Date: 03 Oct 10 - 11:36 PM

"I am simply addressing Steve, not you, Steve."

No - you are talking in an open forum - thus you are addressing us all. If you want a private discussion/harangue with someone, use the PM system - don't bother annoying me though with PMs on this subject, I'm only interested in this discussion through this open forum - if you send me anything private on this subject (or indeed many others - especially if you try bullying tactics :) I will always publish it here, whether you want me to or not.

Subject: RE: BS: True Test of an Atheist
From: The Fooles Troupe
Date: 04 Oct 10 - 12:04 AM

"Do you think that he meant for the banter to only go one way?"

Did you? Sadly In My Experience, many do.



"I am a little puzzled by your implication that I advocated this. >>>'"The One Way, or the highway" method,<<< as I gave an alternative in the next sentence. I was inviting him to accept Jesus, I said if he could not do that, I was asking him to calm himself and not get so worked up about things he professes not to believe. Being a strident Atheist give one all of the drawbacks of having religion with none of the benefits."

Irrational self justifying nonsense. If YOU don't believe what YOU are demanding others believe, why insist on it? Why even say it? If I said "Go Thou and Jump off a Cliff" would you do it? Would you be somehow inhunman if you did not? Shall you be insulted just by my mere saying those words? Shall I say, "don't be offended, I was just funning"? Would you believe that I was just funning, or would you take that as 'proof' that I did not like you?


"As far as the beam in my eye goes, I just don't see it that way. "

Exactly WHY Jesus said that - because the one with the beam in his eye always knows it not! Q.E.D. :-)


"Self described Atheism is a fundamentalism and a religion. "

Only if the practitioner needs to convert the rest of the world (then they are acting no different from the 'Theists') - I know some atheists like that - they DO have a need to make the whole world 'right' and 'save everybody'

Not me mate. I don't CARE what sky fairy others believe in - it may actually make them behave socially nicely anyway - as long as they leave me (and my belief systems - or from their viewpoint 'non-belief' system...) alone and don't insult me by trying to 'convert' me and 'save my (non-existent) soul' in the way they specify. I regularly attend Buddhist 'feast-forums' , but occasionally I just have enough and walk away too. No one has to sit there endlessly when they have had sufficient of the insistence of 'the only way is this' 'discussion'. :-) Much of their pragmatic philosophy is very socially useful, but that doesn't mean that I go along with the whole sky fairy concepts of 'hungry ghosts', infinite dimensions that no one can see except the one individual that had 'exceptional powers'... and other mythical entities, etc....


"Strident athiests"

Haha! many rational thinkers (even Christians too!) object to the sort of sloppy smeared logic (jumbling, misusing, and mixing up poorly defined semantic concepts) so beloved of many Sky Fairy Culture thinkers - just because one objects to that sort of drivel doesn't mean that one is upset by the Sky Fairy nonsense itself, just that the misuse of Logical thought process in expressing it. So then they are attacked as 'evil muddled-headed non-believers' - 'just another atheist'! "

Banter away ... Strident atheists are just as objectionable to me as strident theists ... :-)

Subject: RE: BS: True Test of an Atheist
From: GUEST,Guest from Sanity
Date: 04 Oct 10 - 12:51 AM

Ironic...I've never professed to be of any 'religion' on this forum..though I have a working knowledge of several...and it seems that once it was supposed that I was, major resentment and hate spewed forth. Hmmm...I thought 'liberals' were open to diversity....and not bigotry. Any 'religion' I would chose, if any, is one of the guarantees that Our Constitution allows us...but these same characters who banter about 'Civil Rights' in one thread, say homosexuality, for instance, are the same that would deny certain 'religions' of theirs, in this thread!

My, My, My,...peel the layers of the liberal onion, and you find some rather major hypocrisy going on!!...sort of a disconnect from their own stated 'reality'. So really, guys, take a look, and maybe stop embarrassing yourselves in public!

I guess whether your Jewish or Christian..or anything that should believe in, let's say, the Ten Commandments, it REALLY pisses them off to no end...because the First of the Ten, says something like, "I am the Lord thy God, thou shall not have false gods before me"...and that bums them out, because their OPINIONS, have become their false god to them...and they rather worship that particular idol. But, alas, its only an opinion. It has no power of its own.

Besides, atheism in general, is not matter of knowledge, but rather, inflated pride...I mean, what?..knowledge of nothing?!?!?

GfS

Subject: RE: BS: True Test of an Atheist
From: The Fooles Troupe
Date: 04 Oct 10 - 01:36 AM

"atheism in general, is not matter of knowledge, but rather, inflated pride"

Oh my - do as I say - not as I do - this vicious emotional put down follows after a pitiful bleating that 'all the atheists hate me (and whatever sky fairy culture I profess) and put down religion' ...

Such tolerance!

Subject: RE: BS: True Test of an Atheist
From: The Fooles Troupe
Date: 04 Oct 10 - 01:45 AM

"atheism in general, is not matter of knowledge"

Bzzzt!

Atheism in general, is a matter of 'not-knowledge' - which is another 'fettle of kish' entirely ... :-p

Subject: RE: BS: True Test of an Atheist
From: GUEST,Guest from Sanity
Date: 04 Oct 10 - 01:59 AM

Foolestroupe:"atheism in general, is not matter of knowledge"
Bzzzt!
Atheism in general, is a matter of 'not-knowledge' - which is another 'fettle of kish' entirely ... :-p

Foolestroupe: "I have nothing to prove.

Foolestroupe:Goodbye

Foolestroupe:You win!



GfS: Good bye

Subject: RE: BS: True Test of an Atheist
From: The Fooles Troupe
Date: 04 Oct 10 - 03:24 AM

Back - had to surrender the PC for somebody else.

QUOTE
"atheism in general, is not matter of knowledge"
Bzzzt!
Atheism in general, is a matter of 'not-knowledge'

UNQUOTE

It's the sky fairy cultists of all various flavors who KNOW - and because they KNOW, then everybody ELSE who says different logically must be wrong. So anybody who contests and says that he does 'not-know' is misguided or mistaken at best, or evil at worst and obviously (not even being allowed the luxury of actual intent!) out to attack and destroy those who KNOW - the only thing that those who KNOW (and thus they are the self-restricted victims of their own beliefs) can then do is to 'save the unbelievers' by frothing at the mouth till they have convinced the 'unbelievers', if not actually murder them should they be stupidly stubborn enough to defy 'the truth' and resist. Of course this 'war to save them' logically also applies to believers of other sky fairies, whether they believe they are the ONLY sky fairy or not.

Tolerance of other beliefs is a humanist concept and has been a long fought hard battle. This also includes things like slavery, world dominance by any elitist group, 'women are people too', etc.

Those who do 'not-know' by definition have nothing to prove - but those who KNOW are compelled to 'keep proving it', most especially to themselves, lest they backslide and lose their faith.

Subject: RE: BS: True Test of an Atheist
From: Steve Shaw
Date: 04 Oct 10 - 06:18 AM

Anti-Christian, moi? Anti-theist? Never!

What I am anti is the way in which religion assumes the default position, quite unjustifiably. This is reflected in microcosm on this thread by two people already who pity me and have said they'll pray for me. Ha ha. Condescending, patronising claptrap. In the big world my BBC licence fee allows me to be bombarded by Songs Of Praise and pronouncements from The Archbishop of Wotsit (not to speak of Thought For The Day). My kids were forced to have religious worship and "R.E." lessons at school. My tax money goes to funding faith schools, just about the most backward institutions imaginable. Nah. I don't give a hoot which god you happen to support (I'm Liverpool FC as it happens though it pains me to admit to that at the moment) but just bloody keep him to yourself. Even Jesus told you to do that fer chrissake. As for Christian, if you think that being that is what makes you a goodie then allow me to introduce you to a few atheists who are among the nicest and most humanitarian people you'll ever meet. But carry on. Just shut up about it, that's all, and stop your chosen church from trying to force it on everyone else. And go and pray for yourselves. You need it more than I do. As for me, I'm an atheist. I have literally nothing to shut up about.