BS: Students march against tuition fees UK

Subject: RE: BS: Students march against tuition fees UK
From: Richard Bridge
Date: 10 Nov 10 - 05:54 PM

Arguably some cultures prize education - including those from the Indian subcontinent.

Whence came its widespread rejection in the UK and USA?

Subject: RE: BS: Students march against tuition fees UK
From: GUEST,lox on mobile phone
Date: 10 Nov 10 - 06:01 PM

2 quick points

1. Why, according to a picture i saw today in the metro, were cameron, osborne, cable and gove all sipping champane in china together?

2. What are the chances that the 'anarchists' were planted to discredit the demo?

Subject: RE: BS: Students march against tuition fees UK
From: Lizzie Cornish 1
Date: 10 Nov 10 - 06:02 PM

The Student March at Tory HQ...Youtube

Subject: RE: BS: Students march against tuition fees UK
From: Arthur_itus
Date: 10 Nov 10 - 06:39 PM

Did you really have to post that Lizzie. Are you proud.

If you are, you should be locked up with the fucking idiots who caused all the trouble.

I hope that anyone of those arrested who prove to be students are given a very hard kick up the arse and never allowed to be at University again. Fucking idiots.

Subject: RE: BS: Students march against tuition fees UK
From: Rafflesbear
Date: 10 Nov 10 - 06:48 PM

Both the media and members of Mudcat are primarily focussing on the violent episode and not on the 25000 plus people who marched and protested peacefully.

Sadly peaceful protest is not news

Subject: RE: BS: Students march against tuition fees UK
From: Arthur_itus
Date: 10 Nov 10 - 07:00 PM

I agree with you Rafflesbear, but there are a few on here that would rather see the Aggro side. They shame the students who went to demonstrate peacefully.

Lets hope common sense prevails and people start applauding the 99.9% of the decent students who did it the right way. I feel very proud of them (the peaceful ones).

Subject: RE: BS: Students march against tuition fees UK
From: Lizzie Cornish 1
Date: 10 Nov 10 - 07:08 PM

I posted it because it's what happened, Arthur, not for any other reason..

I told you, I'm not into violence. I know there are those who live for it, and who attend any marches, demonstrations going. I also know that there are those who are the agents provocateurs....

I notice you didn't take umbridge with Lox when he too pointed this fact out...

Did you look at the other links I put in, of the G20 Conference in Canada? Totally innocent people being charged at by police, for no reason whatsoever....

I think we'll start to see many such demonstrations around the country. I hope they're all peaceful ones, but some won't be, either due to those who wish to stir, no matter which 'side' they're on, or because honest, decent people have simply had enough of all this absolute shite that's raining down on them at the moment, whilst those who've caused this entire situation have got away with financial murder.....

For way too long the British have been silent, and we're silent because we're all brought up to hear 'mustn't grumble'...

'The Age of GRUMBLE!' has finally arrived.

Subject: RE: BS: Students march against tuition fees UK
From: McGrath of Harlow
Date: 10 Nov 10 - 07:31 PM

What's your objection to the clip Lizzie linked to?   Straightforward enough news coverage, much the same as the BBC has shown.

The sad thing is that if this had been a peaceful demonstration, it probably would have received minimal media coverage, which is what normally happens with peaceful protests.

That doesn't mean that what we saw there was the right way to go about challenging the coalition. But I think it is pretty inevitable that there will be more scenes like this, and worse.

One problem is that arguing that voting is the right way to try to shape policies doesn't really stand up in this case. When politicians deliberately break pledges they have made as individuals, and not merely through a party manifesto, they cut the legs from under the electoral system.

Subject: RE: BS: Students march against tuition fees UK
From: Richie Black (misused acct, bad email)
Date: 10 Nov 10 - 08:22 PM

I would like to hear what the American/Canadian members think of these disgraceful acts of violence against the police and property in London today. It was not a rouge element, it was students and three were interviewed on Channel 4 news today and they can't wait to do it again. ITN news at 10 interviewed eight students, all admitted it was planned and they are already planning another criminal gathering.

And what are your feelings about British members here openly supporting and condoning this criminal activity ?

I deplore violence of any kind and ask all right thinking people to support the police, respect law and order and please condemn the actions of these students today.

Subject: RE: BS: Students march against tuition fees UK
From: Richard Bridge
Date: 11 Nov 10 - 12:24 AM

Were the rouge element getting red in the face?

You make a great case, Richie, of the need for more education.

When the ballot box is bought, or acquired by deception, it ceases to be an avenue to peaceful influence.

Absolute support for the police (no matter what they do), and absolute respect for law or order, no matter what the laws are and no matter how order is obtained are marks of totalitarianism, not of a society that responds to the needs of its members.

Subject: RE: BS: Students march against tuition fees UK
From: Richard Bridge
Date: 11 Nov 10 - 12:31 AM

PS - AFAIK it was 52,000 students marching.

Subject: RE: BS: Students march against tuition fees UK
From: andrew e
Date: 11 Nov 10 - 01:35 AM

Governments are much more violent than a few students.
They have armies, navies, air forces and police to back them up.
They have heaps of guns and bombs. They have been responsible for millions and millions of deaths.

Subject: RE: BS: Students march against tuition fees UK
From: VirginiaTam
Date: 11 Nov 10 - 02:47 AM

Richie... I am American living in UK and I think in these times that criminal damage is necessary evil. Property belongs to the rich and powerful. If we ruin what they flaunt before us while they steal hope then maybe they will take some notice.

I don't approve of violence against people, but unfortunately criminal damage to property typically leads to this in one way or another.

What I would have liked to see is the Police, joining the peaceful march by refusing to don riot gear and picking up a few signs. They and their children are going to suffer from this nasty student fees decision.

It is the rotten worm riddled cherry on top of the austerity pie. It represents no hope to far too many young people.

Subject: RE: BS: Students march against tuition fees UK
From: GUEST,crowsister
Date: 11 Nov 10 - 03:04 AM

The problem with small groups dedicated to creating trouble of any kind, is that the actions of such minority groups (who may - or may not - also be members of the larger group), will almost certainly be used as an excuse for the govt. to implement more repressive strategies in regards future demonstrations. That is not what's needed right now. The waves of public dissent need to build, not be immediately diverted by a small group of dedicated political activists getting themselves on telly for their 15 minutes of fame. The "anarchists" are playing straight into the hands of the system they supposedly wish to dismantle.

Subject: RE: BS: Students march against tuition fees UK
From: GUEST,crowsister
Date: 11 Nov 10 - 03:09 AM

IMO.. :)

Subject: RE: BS: Students march against tuition fees UK
From: Arthur_itus
Date: 11 Nov 10 - 03:25 AM

Agree with that Crowsister.

Subject: RE: BS: Students march against tuition fees UK
From: Lizzie Cornish 1
Date: 11 Nov 10 - 03:27 AM

Polly Toynbee,(journalist) being interviewed on BBC Breakfast News this morning said that there are loads of peaceful demonstrations taking place all the time and the media pays them no attention at all. This one got much attention because of the violence.

She also said there were many younger students there, sixth formers, who stand to lose their EMA allowance, which is £30 a week, for those who don't know. And if they lose that many won't be able to afford to get to college, stay in 'higer' school etc....I didn't know they were planning on getting rid of that as well...Geez!


From 'Richie Black':

"I deplore violence of any kind and ask all right thinking people to support the police, respect law and order and please condemn the actions of these students today."


'Richie' for those who aren't aware is, more than likely, the person who's been making foul FB pages of some Mudcatters. ALL that he is saying is absolute shite, and nothing more than trolling and stirring.....Just so's you folks understand and all. If you don't believe me, then take a look at these two, further, PMs that he sent me:


>>>"I just received a message from another member which explained a lot to me, so I wish to apologize.

You really should give consideration to hormone replacement therapy (HRT) be a more appropriate treatment than antidepressants. I had a sister in the same position some years back and saw wonderful results in a short space of time. It can relieve mood instability. In your situation, antidepressants may not be helpful and another treatment is warranted.

If you have not done so already, consider making an appointment with a gynecologist. He or she may be able to determine whether HRT is appropriate for you.

I wish you will and hope for your understanding at my earlier response to the remarks you made towards me.

Yours sincerely

Richard M. Black"<<<<<


He received my reply, telling him the correct way to spell 'gynaecologist' and...to FO.

This morning, I get this classic:

>>>"Look I honestly understand you are upset over this issue. Please don't concern yourself over these political issues if it is going to effect your health.

The member who contacted me explained the situation here. I am sorry I don't know Joan Crump, Ruth Archer or Hoff Bridges, I am a relatively new member and I am sorry if what they said was true that they have conspired against at some point here. Ignore them and don't enter into debates with them.

Best wishes

Richard M. Black"<<<<


So, there ya go...


As I said, Richie...FO

Subject: RE: BS: Students march against tuition fees UK
From: theleveller
Date: 11 Nov 10 - 03:32 AM

Well done to all those students and lecturers who turned up and protested peacefully against what is, in effect, an abuse of our democratic and electoral system. I forsee many more protests in the future and I, for one, will be exercising my democratic right to join in despite what the right-wing extremeists on this board who would create an elitist and totalitarian state might think. This has been a big two fingers to Cameron and especially to the turn-coat Clegg.

See you on the streets!

Subject: RE: BS: Students march against tuition fees UK
From: Lizzie Cornish 1
Date: 11 Nov 10 - 03:33 AM

Oh, and so's you know this too, I've never taken an anti-depressant in me life, but it seems he took umbridge at being told that YPT stands for 'You Patronising Tw*t' ;0)


And now, back to the march, which seems to have shaken, not just stirred David Cameron, who...may *just* be starting to understand that he's doing too much, too fast, too deeply, too un-compassionately, whilst he and his pals eat and drink at yet another G20 conference costing even more BILLIONS and BILLIONS!

Subject: RE: BS: Students march against tuition fees UK
From: GUEST,Patsy
Date: 11 Nov 10 - 03:35 AM

I agree too Crowsister it makes it seem to everyone that all of the students are reacting violently like that so I was glad that they interviewed some young people who showed their disgust and critisised the violence. I thought that my 88 year old Dad would have said the same but on this occasion after watching Cameron poncing around in China trying to sell Rolls Royce Engines instead of sorting out things at home he had a different point of view.

Subject: RE: BS: Students march against tuition fees UK
From: Lizzie Cornish 1
Date: 11 Nov 10 - 03:41 AM

"The only thing that one really knows about human nature is that it changes. Change is the one quality we can predicate of it. The systems that fail are those that rely on the permanency of human nature, and not on its growth and development. The error of Louis XIV was that he thought human nature would always be the same. The result of his error was the French Revolution. It was an admirable result." - Oscar Wilde

Subject: RE: BS: Students march against tuition fees UK
From: Jim Carroll
Date: 11 Nov 10 - 04:08 AM

Just a point about the violence (isn't it a pity how many postings are discussing that rather than the rights and wrongs of the cuts - a victory for who, I wonder).
The press and the police ALWAYS tar ALL demonstrators and opponents of authority with the same brush and would have depicted the demonstrators as violent thugs whether unrest had taken place or not.
Recently there was a similar demonstration by students in Dubin - there was violence - by the police, who attacked peaceful demonstrators with such force that they have received well over one hundred complaints. Our media seems a little more ready to cover institutional violence than does that of the UK.
Violent demonstrations are unnecessary and counter-productive, but, as far as the Police and media are concerned, violence will always take place whether it takes place or not!!!! To the establishment, all dissidents are thugs and misfits, and will always be depicted as such.
Jim Carroll

Subject: RE: BS: Students march against tuition fees UK
From: Richie Black (misused acct, bad email)
Date: 11 Nov 10 - 04:12 AM

Ms Cornish, why would I wish to send you messages ? Please keep to the subject we are discussing. Attempting to discredit another member with such blatant lies is applauding. I just read some of your comments on previous threads and it would appear you have issues with half the members on this site and publishing fantasy private messages isn't new to you. By the way, who is Richard M. ?

Subject: RE: BS: Students march against tuition fees UK
From: theleveller
Date: 11 Nov 10 - 04:24 AM

"What I would have liked to see is the Police, joining the peaceful march by refusing to don riot gear and picking up a few signs. They and their children are going to suffer from this nasty student fees decision."

It isn't just that which will affect them, VT. With the cut-backs and the reorganisations, many simply don't know whether they will have a job in the future. My son is angry that there has been no communication or consultation with them, they are simply in limbo wondering what the hell's happening. So, it would appear, we have a disaffected police force who are not going to stand behind this government as they did during the miner's strike (well, there won't be the money to pay the overtime, for one thing).

Interesting that Millbank House was not singled out as a place likely to need extra protection and that, when it was attacked, there simply weren't enough police to stop it. Now I'm not a conspiracy theorist but.........looks like we're in for a very interesting winter of discontent.

Subject: RE: BS: Students march against tuition fees UK
From: GUEST,crowsister
Date: 11 Nov 10 - 04:37 AM

It's worth keeping in mind that not all anarchists are anarchists. Some are undercover police. This has been proven to be the case in incidents at G20, and as another case highlighted by Mayomick elsewhere, also grassroots anarchist organisations in the UK. The official line of course will be that such infiltration is merely for the purpose of observation. A conspiracy theorist might have different ideas. Especially where violence is in fact instigated by men wearing the same boots as their uniformed colleagues, and then protected by them when the crowd identifies them as not being legitimate demonstrators.

Subject: RE: BS: Students march against tuition fees UK
From: akenaton
Date: 11 Nov 10 - 04:38 AM

Mr McGrath...Best post on the thread, and no responce from those who condemn the violence.

Subject: RE: BS: Students march against tuition fees UK
From: GUEST,Silas
Date: 11 Nov 10 - 04:45 AM

Well, I for one am wondering just why it took so long for these students to get off their arses and start this protest, which is more than justifiable having been duped by the very politicians that many of them voted for – most of them being somewhat naïve first time voters. As for the violence, well, no right minded person would condone this behaviour, but it has to be said that without the publicity that this gave the protest, the coverage would have been one tenth of what I has been.

Subject: RE: BS: Students march against tuition fees UK
From: Bonzo3legs
Date: 11 Nov 10 - 04:58 AM

As usual, the failed conveyance clerk Bridge has to resort to insulting language.

Subject: RE: BS: Students march against tuition fees UK
From: GUEST,Silas
Date: 11 Nov 10 - 05:02 AM

Errr... Have I missed something here? I saw that he called you a fucking idiot, you are not referring to that are you?

Subject: RE: BS: Students march against tuition fees UK
From: Lizzie Cornish 1
Date: 11 Nov 10 - 05:03 AM

Exactly, Crowsister!! That's what I was trying to get across...It's sooooo easy for those with other agendas to hijack any march. I'm not saying this is what happened here, but you've now looked at the links above, followed the G20 trails, seen the police etc...

Not all is what it may first seem...



Joe, can you deal with this creep, please, whoever he/she may be. I've explained to him/her that you have my 100% permission to check my messages, and always will have, but he/she doesn't seem to care...


>>>From Richie Black via PM
"Listen you old tiger, what the fuck are you talking about with this facebooks shite ?

It's no small wonder you are the most despised individual on this site. I hear the ex husband also saw sense and legged it.

Stop fucking contacting me and go find a fucking job and stop leeching off the state and opting out of work by looking after that old tart.

By the way, black eye make up and bleach went out with the sixties.

Now fuck off and not contacting me."

Thank you.

Subject: RE: BS: Students march against tuition fees UK
From: Arthur_itus
Date: 11 Nov 10 - 05:15 AM

Right, this thread is getting out of hand. I do not condone anybody that chooses to flame or even post PM's on a thread, concerning Mudcatters.
Can some kindly mud elf please remove all flaming post from this thread please.
I started this thread to discuss the Student march, not flaming and slagging each other.

Subject: RE: BS: Students march against tuition fees UK
From: Rafflesbear
Date: 11 Nov 10 - 05:30 AM

If one person is responsible for the situation that occurred yesterday more than any other, that person is Nick Clegg

He has been elected under false pretences, he has blatantly broken an absolutely cast-iron election promise

He should resign as leader of his party and seek a by-election in his constituency

He brings the good name of British politics into disrepute

THAT should be the new rallying call because, as stated above, if you elect people for one thing and once elected they do something completely different then the democratic process is worthless.

Important and real as it may be to many people the battle against student fees pales into insignificance against the battle for democracy.

Subject: RE: BS: Students march against tuition fees UK
From: GUEST,Steamin' Willie
Date: 11 Nov 10 - 05:31 AM

Just started form the bottom, (after reading the original post) and got as far as "not all anarchists are anarchists." No answer to that, at least not before the pubs open.

it would appear from yesterday's shining example of civilisation, that not all students are students either.

I watched Newsnight and felt sorry for students. A message to MPs to examine their conscience and rethink the terms of the legislation, to reassess the wisdom of signing a pledge.. Paxman was doing his best to help the student leaders by focussing on tuition fees but as ever, the actions of those looking for a fight rather than a cause means that the government can laugh as the issue is side tracked by criminals, hence the debate over tuition fees becomes secondary.

Poor bloody gullible students. They have a point, a real point, but have lost it. I said before in the direct action thread that demonstrations are an important part of democracy, but once the criminals turn up, you may as well just go home, as they bat for the other side, or if they don't, they score more own goals than a hapless full back.

Subject: RE: BS: Students march against tuition fees UK
From: Lizzie Cornish 1
Date: 11 Nov 10 - 05:36 AM

I don't feel the students have lost *any* points. They've focussed people's minds, woken many up, even through indignation...and..they'll have given others courage to voice their anger too.

We have all been silent for way too long.

Arthur, I've written to Joe, so hopefully, this will get sorted out. I just need to highlight to others what this person is really about, because some were taking him seriously. Apologies for taking your thread off track.

Subject: RE: BS: Students march against tuition fees UK
From: Arthur_itus
Date: 11 Nov 10 - 05:39 AM

Lizzie, please don't use a thread of mine again to highlight your personal issues with others. Start your own tread in future, please

Subject: RE: BS: Students march against tuition fees UK
From: Richard Bridge
Date: 11 Nov 10 - 05:46 AM

What's the matter bonzo? You think that people really pay thousands of pounds simply to avoid earning thousands of pounds? Or you just want to hide behind "Miss, he called me a nasty name"?

I've dealt quite happily with your "failure" allegations before - or can't you remember that either?

Willie, try to keep up. As all that glisters is not gold, so all those appearing to stand with anarchists on a march are not anarchists. Some are agents provocateur.

Subject: RE: BS: Students march against tuition fees UK
From: McGrath of Harlow
Date: 11 Nov 10 - 05:47 AM

A public statement that it would be reasonable to expect that any "Liberal Democrat" with a shred of personal honour to make at this point:

"When I stood for election in May, I pledged myself to vote in the Commons against any rise in tuition fees for students. However in light of the economic situation I now feel unable to carry out that pledge. I will therefor be resigning my seat in the Commons, and standing as a candidate in the forthcoming by-election, this time promising to vote to raise tuition fees."

Subject: RE: BS: Students march against tuition fees UK
From: Jim Carroll
Date: 11 Nov 10 - 06:13 AM

Don't know if it made the UK papers, but there is an interesting photograph of the Millbank demonstration in the Irish Times this morning.
A 'student demonstrator', complete with policeman's helmet, stands poised to throw a chair at a window, while a nearby photographer, apparently with all the time in the world, prepares to take a photograph of him doing so - "Ready for my shot, Mr DeMille?".
Back in the Grosvenor Square days I witnessed up close 'missile-throwing demonstrators' who later appeared in the police ranks manning their defence lines.
Incidentally, to those who claim that we should lie down and let the establishment roll over us - the Irish Government have announced that they are abandoning plans to double student grants and have reduced the increase to €500/800 instead.
Would be interesting to know if the demonstrations and the outcry against the very public police violence, had anything to do with their decision.
Jim Carroll

Subject: RE: BS: Students march against tuition fees UK
From: Richie Black (misused acct, bad email)
Date: 11 Nov 10 - 06:17 AM

These are the same left wing "students" who belong to organisations like UAF and Socialist Worker Party, always out creating violence and destruction wherever and whenever they appear, and then blaming it on the the "extreme right". they are treated by the police with kid- gloves. It is time to get tough on such people.

So a few here still condone a fire extinguisher being hurled from the roof of the building, narrowly missing police officers below. Seven police officers were injured yesterday,tens of thousands of pounds worth of damage was caused in the Millbank offices of the Conservative party. Thirty-five people were arrested for offences including criminal damage and aggravated trespass and many more were photographed and identified as police prepared to collect evidence of crimes.

Crime is crime is crime.

Just ignore her Arthur_itus, the rest of us do. Read her previous comments, telling lies and creating fictitious personal messages are not new to her.

Subject: RE: BS: Students march against tuition fees UK
From: GUEST,Patsy
Date: 11 Nov 10 - 06:44 AM

I am not saying anything for or against the violence, just glad that the some were given the opportunity to express their opinion instead of being tarred by the same brush, the camera can lie with certain situations. On this occasion the police were made to look as if they were taken totally by surprise, come on they are trained police prepared for these situations aren't they? The students are not the only ones to be peeved by Camerone and poodle and I think we will see more disgruntled people taking the streets, hopefully soon.

Subject: RE: BS: Students march against tuition fees UK
From: Lizzie Cornish 1
Date: 11 Nov 10 - 07:00 AM

From me:"Arthur, I've written to Joe, so hopefully, this will get sorted out. I just need to highlight to others what this person is really about, because some were taking him seriously. Apologies for taking your thread off track."

Your response: "Lizzie, please don't use a thread of mine again to highlight your personal issues with others. Start your own tread in future, please"

You know, when people have publically apologised to me on this board I have *always* been gracious enough to acknowledge and accept their apology, offering the hand of friendship afterwards.

It would seem you are not capable of doing this...and so....I therefore now withdraw my apology, for they are only given to people I respect.

I'd also be grateful if you mentioned your views to others, by name, on this thread, who are also personally bickering with each other, rather than singling me out for your disdain.

Thank you.


And I look forward to you also venting your spleen to 'Richie Black' for his comment, just above this.

Thanks again...

Oh!...and....POWER TO THE PEOPLE!

"You HAVE to be more politically aware in a day and age like this. It's IMPOSSIBLE to close your eyes to it." - John Lennon

Subject: RE: BS: Students march against tuition fees UK
From: Jim Carroll
Date: 11 Nov 10 - 07:04 AM

"Crime is crime is crime"
Except when it's committed by the police apparently, who, as we know "Were only obeying orders".
Jim Carroll

Subject: RE: BS: Students march against tuition fees UK
From: GUEST,Silas
Date: 11 Nov 10 - 07:20 AM

The crime, and it was a real crime, was when the Libdems campaigned for votes from students on the promise that they would oppose student fees, and then, on the first opportunity they had, are prepared to vote for increasing student fees threefold. Cleggy may take some comfort in his position of 'power' that he has destroyed the Libdem party, I do not see how it can ever recover from this.

Subject: RE: BS: Students march against tuition fees UK
From: Bonzo3legs
Date: 11 Nov 10 - 07:39 AM

"You HAVE to be more politically aware in a day and age like this. It's IMPOSSIBLE to close your eyes to it."

Rubbish, I'm having great fun which I've worked for since 1964!!!

Subject: RE: BS: Students march against tuition fees UK
From: Rafflesbear
Date: 11 Nov 10 - 08:02 AM

"crime is crime is crime"

No, if that were the case there would be the same punishment for all crime. As it is it varies from life imprisonment to being let off with a caution.

Also that which is not a crime today may be a crime tomorrow if laws are tightened and similarly that which is a crime today may not be a crime tomorrow if laws are relaxed.

And without condoning it, how does breaking a window compare to sending troops into a sovereign nation and killing (albeit by collateral damage) innocent human beings within that nation?

Subject: RE: BS: Students march against tuition fees UK
From: theleveller
Date: 11 Nov 10 - 08:26 AM

"These are the same left wing "students" who belong to organisations like UAF and Socialist Worker Party, "

And also the same students who voted LibDem based on the promise not to raise tuition fees - and maybe even a few who voted conservative. But, of course, acknowledging the reality rather pisses on the bonfire of your reactionary and totally blinkered opinion.

Subject: RE: BS: Students march against tuition fees UK
From: Richard Bridge
Date: 11 Nov 10 - 08:31 AM

Curiously the Teapublicans appear to be arguing elsewhere that Bush's war crimes are not crimes if his lawyers told him they were not crimes.

Bonzo, you demonstrate the untruth of your statement - you postulate that you should continue to enjoy the fruits of the exploitation of the workers. Have you really never read any Marxist theory?

Rafflesbear - it is unusual for things retrospectively to be turned into crimes (and vice versa).

Subject: RE: BS: Students march against tuition fees UK
From: Rafflesbear
Date: 11 Nov 10 - 09:03 AM

Richard - I am not suggesting that laws are amended retrospectively but that to say crime is crime is crime gives the impression that it is set in stone.

what is a crime today is a crime today is a crime today would be more accurate, but even within that there are degrees and extenuating circumstances which wikipedia (ok, not the authoritative source) describes thus -

"In law, extenuating circumstances are criminal cases in which, though an offence has been committed without legal justification or excuse, its gravity, from the point of view of punishment or moral opprobrium, is mitigated or reduced by reason of unusual or extreme facts leading up to or attending the commission of the offence"

Subject: RE: BS: Students march against tuition fees UK
From: Bonzo3legs
Date: 11 Nov 10 - 09:13 AM

"Bonzo, you demonstrate the untruth of your statement - you postulate that you should continue to enjoy the fruits of the exploitation of the workers. Have you really never read any Marxist theory?"

What are you on about?? I read Lark Rise by Flora Thompson, why should I ever want to read anything else??

Subject: RE: BS: Students march against tuition fees UK
From: GUEST,Steamin' Willie
Date: 11 Nov 10 - 09:29 AM

Notwithstanding many people do not wish to see tuition fees buggering up tomorrow's wage earners.. It is a bit difficult for popular opinion to side with any move that includes criminal action. Full stop. Most people in this country are decent if a wee bit gullible. So it is not easy for them to side with a protest when the images they see are of violence.

Mind you, as this thread is more to do with those who advocate non democratic answers to their beef versus those who do, as opposed to anything to do with poor ruddy students...

I was more interested in this from a few posts back;

"You HAVE to be more politically aware in a day and age like this. It's IMPOSSIBLE to close your eyes to it." - John Lennon

No offence, but wow... "Day and age like this.."   You realise of course there are people say in Doncaster who are grandparents who were not even born when Lennon died? (Monday 8 December 1980 at 10..00pm local time, he says without even looking, and showing his age at the same time.)