BS: Ireland-What happened?

Subject: RE: BS: Ireland-What happened?
From: GUEST,jackaro
Date: 07 Jan 11 - 09:17 AM

What happened? same as everywhere in the capitalist world
Here it is in a 'talkin' blues'

Talkin' 21st century American Capitalist Blues
                                                                
© Jack Warshaw 2009
Inspired by a recent '2 cows' analysis of the world banking crisis:

   21st century capitalism American style:
      A man has 0 cows but notices that cows produce a lot of milk .
      He lends a bank $$$ to buys cows for him.
      In exchange for the $$$ he gets 30 years of the cows future milk.
      He sells the future milk to 3000 institutions around the world .
      He insures his loan to the bank with AIG, just in case.
      He gives himself a huge bonus for being so "talented".
      3000 institutions around the world sell the future milk to 3 million people like us.
      The cows all get mad cow and have to be slaughtered.
      The bank goes bust and the employees are laid off.
      The man claims the loss of milk against his insurance with AIG.
      3000 institutions around the world do the same.
      AIG collapses and markets around the world panic
      The government gives the man $$$ to buy more cows with $$$ it borrowed on our behalf.
      The man now has lots of cows and $$$ again and lots of milk.
      He gives himself another bonus for being so "talented".

Well come all you city folk if you wanna learn
I'll explain to you in simple terms
How it came to be that the country's broke
And we're so poor we're like to croak

It all started on a farm near you…

There was a rich man who bought some cows
He tried to milk 'em but didn't know how
He went to the bank and the banker said
"Lend me your money and I'll buy them cows instead"

"This here note says you get the milk as long as the grass shall grow."

"Now you can sell that future milk
To other banks of similar ilk
Just insure your money in case of foul weather
And keep a chunk of it for bein' so clever"

High ho Wall Street, here I come…   

So the rich guy sold promises of milk
But the cows got sick and had to be killed
The banks went broke and sacked their staff
And all the rich guys claimed insurance payoffs

All the banks collapsed the very same way
The insurance guys just couldn't pay
'Twas the end of the line for the gravy train
There's no one left now to take the blame

The whole shebang went west quicker'n you could say "Buddy can you spare a dime?"
But wait…

The dough the government took from us
Went to those rich guys who bought more cows
Now they've got the cows, the money and lots of milk
And a big fat bonus for bein' so slick

Only trouble is, we're gonna be bailin' them banks out 'till the cows come home!

Subject: RE: BS: Ireland-What happened?
From: mikesamwild
Date: 06 Jan 11 - 03:05 PM

In the past there was a nationalist enthusiasm. If England had been subject to a foreign power I'm sure there would be the same effect.

Now Ireland stands on her own feet it must be love or a commercial career opportunity or both/

In our sessions in Sheffield we don't get too many young Irish musicians any more.

i've got five sons, all into music but not trad! It's peer influence at first. Unless you are a youngster witha scial life tied in with traditional music it is unlikely you will pursue it once away from parental influemce unless you got gripped by it young.

In the past there were dancehalls where young Irish immigrants could socialise and meet the opposite sex. Now there are other clubs and a less segregated society. Good for people bad for the tradition?

Subject: RE: BS: Ireland-What happened?
From: The Sandman
Date: 05 Jan 11 - 05:40 PM

Two cases, CHRIS B is right, a lot of young irish people are not interested in the music, I would guess from observation a large minority are, say 40 per cent.

Subject: RE: BS: Ireland-What happened?
From: GUEST,Peter Laban
Date: 05 Jan 11 - 08:56 AM

I was talking to two local teenagers who are going to Limerick uni, to study music. They, a brother and sister first and second year students, said it was brilliant they played all day, breaks, evenings and nights. Non-stop.

You'd expect it from music students, but still.

Subject: RE: BS: Ireland-What happened?
From: GUEST,Chris B (Born Again Scouser)
Date: 05 Jan 11 - 08:43 AM

Jim, I don't doubt that what you describe is the case in Ireland but from what I've seen in Liverpool very few Irish students or young Irish graduates are actively involved in Irish music in the city.

In our Comhaltas branch a couple of years ago we decided to try and do something about that. I contacted the local universities to ask about setting up stalls at their freshers' fairs. It turns out that there is now a commercial agency that books stalls at these events for colleges all over Britain. It's big business and it's very expensive. However, we could get a 50% discount if we were a registered charity. Unfortunately, Comhaltas in Britain isn't.

So we approached The Liverpool Irish Festival to see if they wanted to come in with us and split the cost. Not interested. We also asked the local Irish centre to do the same and they agreed. The deal was we would split the costs and manpower and both organisations would share names and email addresses of anyone who wanted to be involved.

The Centre kept all that information and never passed it on to the branch but from being on the stalls myself I could see that neither they nor us were exactly flooded with interest (despite the fact that we had students and young people helping man the stall).

Students are students wherever you go and just because they come from Ireland doesn't meant they're going to be interested in traditional music. English students go to colleges in Scotland and Ireland but that doesn't mean they're all into Martin Carthy and Morris Dancing.

Subject: RE: BS: Ireland-What happened?
From: Jim Carroll
Date: 05 Jan 11 - 06:37 AM

"......the last thing young people want to do when they move away from home is carry on doing the same thing they did when they were living with their parents."
I think you will find that the upturn in the fortunes of Irish music has meant that youngsters have now come to it in their thousands out of a genuine love for it and not because they have been railroaded into it by their parents.
I agree that, inthe past and largely because of the Comhaltas approach, young people who were involved due to parental pressure , did a runner as soon as they were free of the apron-strings - happly not the case any more.
One fear in the current crisis (caused by greedy bastards and incompetent and corrupt politicians) is that the government will cut the financial support that has done much to bring about the changes in the music.
Jim Carroll

Subject: RE: BS: Ireland-What happened?
From: GUEST,Chris B (Born Again Scouser)
Date: 05 Jan 11 - 05:29 AM

Bonnie, I agree. We have thousands of young Irish graduates and students in Liverpool. Many of them would have planned to move back in the long run but I think a lot of them are sitting tight for the time being and waiting to see what happens. Of course, the longer they do that the more likely they are to start careers and families and put down roots.

That influx of young Irish people hasn't done as much for Irish music in Liverpool as you might expect, with one or two notable exceptions. I think the last thing young people want to do when they move away from home is carry on doing the same thing they did when they were living with their parents. There certainly isn't much evidence of many of them wanting to spend a lot of their time involved with organisations that remind them of the society they left in the first place (and which has let them and their families down so badly).

Another thing is that the earlier generations of Irish people who came to England tended to come as young, single men and women, often straight from the family home with very little to their name except what they brought with them. Many of the people who are losing their jobs in Ireland now have kids in school and mortgages on properties that they can't sell so it's not as easy for them to just up sticks and leave. So yes, I think a lot of people are just hanging on grimly. For those who do leave, I don't think England is the magnet it once was in any case.

Subject: RE: BS: Ireland-What happened?
From: The Sandman
Date: 04 Jan 11 - 03:43 PM

the next thing that thisstupid government propose is to spend 15 million on postcodes, for feck sake the country is bankrupt people on social welfare are taking weekly cuts ...and they propose to introduce postcodes, we have managed all this time without postcodes, just with townlands ...this is not the time to waste money on introducing postcodes

Subject: RE: BS: Ireland-What happened?
From: Bonnie Shaljean
Date: 04 Jan 11 - 11:48 AM

Depends what the job situation does. Right now, nobody I speak to is expecting anything. People just numbly trudge from one day to the next and wait to "see what happens". General election before long, heigh-ho... Trust is gone, though.

In the meantime, no matter how easy travel becomes, once emigrants have begun to establish themselves and find friends in a new community it gets harder and harder to leave what you've built up. Commitments start forging their own links, and often - unless you're very committed to a particular goal or destination (which a lot of kids aren't, except survival) - a life-path just follows the line of least resistance. So they stay wherever it is they've gone.

Subject: RE: BS: Ireland-What happened?
From: mikesamwild
Date: 04 Jan 11 - 09:05 AM

Will the inevitable emigration have a musical impact in host communities or do young people expect to travel back and forth rather than put down new roots?

Subject: RE: BS: Ireland-What happened?
From: Richie Black (misused acct, bad email)
Date: 29 Dec 10 - 04:54 AM

There can be no doubt that the euro was a dumb idea. Iceland — outside the euro — has been able to make a modest recovery from its horrendous meltdown in 2008, but Ireland — inside the euro — is still stuck in the mire.

If Ireland had its own currency, it could let its currency fall and that would boost economic growth. (A cheaper currency helps a country sell its exports.) And if Ireland hadn't joined the euro in the first place, its problems wouldn't be so great.

The primary problem with the euro is that it means you can only have one interest rate across most of Europe. So when Ireland desperately needed a big interest rate rise to curb a massive property boom, it got very little and interest rates stayed too low. As a result, Irish banks lent too much money based on inflated property values. When the bubble eventually burst, the banks were in a right old mess.

Don't get me wrong, I'm not saying that the euro was the only cause of Ireland's problems. After all, Britain has had its own crisis and we stayed outside the euro. However, compared to Ireland we don't have as many empty property developments and our banks' problems didn't arise primarily from over-lending on UK property.

In other words, the euro made things much worse for Ireland than would otherwise have been the case.

Subject: RE: BS: Ireland-What happened?
From: The Sandman
Date: 26 Dec 10 - 03:49 PM

the most likely coaliton[according to the book makers is fine gael labour , but another dark horse that is possible is labour/ sinn fein

Subject: RE: BS: Ireland-What happened?
From: Stringsinger
Date: 26 Dec 10 - 02:27 PM

In reference to the economy, Erin Go Blah.

Subject: RE: BS: Ireland-What happened?
From: mikesamwild
Date: 26 Dec 10 - 09:17 AM

Good clear breakdown Chris B. Is there an inbuilt tribalism that gives respect to leaders (in UK there is still deference to a ruling elite where true power resides) Who replaced the Anglo Irish ascendancy, and now the RC church is greatly discredited where does true power lie?

Subject: RE: BS: Ireland-What happened?
From: An Buachaill Caol Dubh
Date: 24 Dec 10 - 10:39 AM

That's a great analysis,Chris B (I know it can be said that all that really means is, "I'm in agreement"); the only thing I'd add is that it seems Ireland has an unusually high proportion of politicians who are themselves the sons or daughters or other relations of those who have been politicians (and sometimes, still are). The genius for organization is one hope to cling to, as long as the original purpose is kept in view, as you stated. But isn't it often said that, in Left Politics meetings, the first thing on the Agenda is "the split into factions"?

Anyway, let's hope 2011 is better than 2010 has been.

Subject: RE: BS: Ireland-What happened?
From: GUEST,Jim Martin
Date: 24 Dec 10 - 07:25 AM

If Labour can get their act together, there's hope! Should they rush into it or is there time to get a quality deal for the electorate? Happy Christmas.

Subject: RE: BS: Ireland-What happened?
From: GUEST,Chris B (Born Again Scouser)
Date: 24 Dec 10 - 06:51 AM

A few thoughts:

I think in any country – indeed, in any organized human activity – the only thing that keeps people in charge 'honest' is the knowledge that they will be held to account. People in positions of power or authority inevitably become complacent and blinkered at best or corrupt and dishonest at worst if there is no effective mechanism by which they can be held responsible for their actions. The Catholic Church is a prime example.

One of the problems in both Ireland and Britain is that no-one believes that those responsible for the corruption and perversion of what are supposed to be 'Democratic' systems will be held to account. So cynicism and disillusionment sets in. In some cases, people start to blame themselves. Later on, they look for someone else to blame. Sometimes it's the right people (the ruling class) – more often, it's the wrong people (immigrants, foreigners, anyone who's different). 'Revolutionary' solutions don't convince anyone anymore since so many 'Revolutionary' leaders around the world can be seen to have become just as corrupt and dishonest as the people they have deposed – if they aren't co-opted into the 'System' so that they end up having a vested interest in it.

This has been particularly sad in Ireland since so much sacrifice and suffering was endured (almost within living memory) to establish a self-governing state (of sorts). So what's left, and what is to be done?

At the risk of generalizing, there is a great genius for organizing among Irish people. As soon as Irish people arrive in a foreign country almost the first thing they do is establish organizations. These could be County Associations, GAA teams, chapters of the AOH, Gaelic League branches, Irish Social Clubs or branches of Comhaltas Ceoltoiri Eireann. In America, there was also the phenomenon of Irish organization and eventual predominance in bodies like City Police and Fire Departments and the Democratic Party (at city level, at least). So we're good at organizing ourselves and in some cases getting ourselves into positions of power. So what to we do with that power once we get there?

Not very much, it seems. Instead, what seems to happen is we close ranks, circle the wagons and segregate ourselves from the wider communities we live amongst and concentrate on maintaining our own social and communal life without dealing with the outside world any more than we have to. Those structures that we establish quickly become dominated by a very small number of men and women who tend to dominate them in some cases for life.

As a result, the organization and their position within it becomes more important than the purpose for which the organization was (ostensibly) established in the first place. This is, admittedly, a very sketchy and perhaps simplistic view of expatriate Irish communities but I would be surprised if at least some people involved in the sort of organization I'm describing didn't recognize some of what I've outlined above.

I think there's some evidence of that tendency within Ireland itself. Since 1948, and particularly since joining the EU, Ireland has become exposed to the wider world economy in a way that it was perhaps not before. In the 20s and 30s, the Irish State espoused very much a 'go-it-alone' approach to the economy. Foreign trade and investment, while not unwelcome, were not pursued with anything like the vigour of later years. Public services and utilities were run with a high degree of state involvement on what I would describe as a 'Social-Corporatist' model with a high degree of Trade Union involvement.

By the early 1960s, the continuing stagnation of the economy led to the Lemass government trying to attract greater foreign investment from outside (particularly, at the time, from the UK) and trying to increase Irish exports to the UK and other European markets. This led to Ireland joining the EEC in 1973 – though another reason for that was the fact that Ireland's biggest trading partner (the UK) was joining and the country could not afford to be cut off from its biggest market.

As the 70s and 80s went on, countries all over Europe moved to the right and workers' rights came under increasing attack. Reaganomics, Thatcherism, Gombeenism – whatever you want to call it – took hold and is still desperately hanging on across the world despite its evident failure in so many economies. It's not done yet, though – one of the things the left always underestimated was capitalism's resilience as long as there were markets and workforces still open to exploitation.

Ireland got a lot of money out of the EEC in the 70s. Lots of this went to farmers who were a pillar of support for Fianna Fail. Some, but not enough, went on education and infrastructure with the result that there was a balance of payments crisis in the 80s. More unemployment, more emigration. Later, money from Europe was spent a bit more wisely although plenty of it still ended up in brown envelopes.

The peace process (which got under way properly after Major replaced Thatcher and Clinton replaced Bush) made Ireland a safer bet for foreign investment. That and the recession in the UK meant that emigration started to reduce and talent had an outlet within Ireland. So far, so good. Then the economy got overheated and successive governments adopted a US-style neo-liberal economic doctrine despite the fact that most of the lasting benefit of the late 80s and 90s came out of Keynesian public investment.

At the same time, the tendency to create organizations and cliques which soon become primarily concerned with their own benefit meant that the country continued to be run by a political class that was concerned with feathering its own nest. What is extraordinary is the extent to which people were prepared to go along with it – but then the same thing happened in Britain in the 80s.

All of which brings me back to the question of how the country's mechanisms of government are set up. We as a people have, as I've said, a genius for creating organizations and hierarchies. We're not, perhaps, so great at maintaining a sense of purpose within them. That's why, in my view, a unitary state based on the Westminster model doesn't suit the country. In the absence of any real ideological or philosophical choice between the parties there is literally nothing to vote for. In Britain in 1945 people were presented with a real choice and a real hope and they went for it. That sort of chance only comes along once in a generation if you're lucky. Whether anyone is equipped to offer the same sort of choice and hope in Ireland in 2011 is another matter.

Well, that's enough from me for now. I didn't mean to blather on so long. Have a good Christmas, everyone.

Subject: RE: BS: Ireland-What happened?
From: An Buachaill Caol Dubh
Date: 22 Dec 10 - 11:33 AM

Thanks, Bonnie Shaljean and Jim Carroll. I'd had D. McW recommended to me the last time I was in Donegal, a book "The Pope's Children" concerning those born since ?1980, and I understand that he and Eddie Hobbes are highly regarded (by some); also used to have Vincent Browne on RTE Radio, but no longer. And of course I know how keenly everyone's awaiting the General Election, apart from the TDs; especially Sinn Fein, if Pearse Docherty's recent win in Donegal is a good indicator.

Concerning the way some are clearly above the law, wasn't it Swift who compared it to a Spider's Web, "which traps the little Flies, though the great Moths break through..."?

Subject: RE: BS: Ireland-What happened?
From: Brian May
Date: 22 Dec 10 - 07:37 AM

A child was heard to say: 'The Emperor hasn't got any clothes on'.

The rest is history - for which the rest of us 'not-so-greedy-bastards' will have to pay . . .

Subject: RE: BS: Ireland-What happened?
From: mikesamwild
Date: 22 Dec 10 - 06:40 AM

When the train hits the buffers we start talking about spending our way out. The New Deal model would leave us in hock to some country or power group.

If we ( in UK and Ireland) had put our money and energy into green technologies and job creation a lot earlier we might not have gone on the bonanza route and not be in the shit we are now..
Now I see that China is the major producer and exporter of photovoltaic cells

Subject: RE: BS: Ireland-What happened?
From: The Sandman
Date: 21 Dec 10 - 04:15 PM

well said Frank, the politicians do not seem to understand how to make capatalism work,to boost the economy employing people on public works schemes is essential, enabling people to have money to buy goods, thus boosting production. what is happening now in ireland wil only deepen the recession, ireland is governed by clowns crooks and ignoramuses

Subject: RE: BS: Ireland-What happened?
From: Stringsinger
Date: 21 Dec 10 - 03:25 PM

Austerity programs don't work. When a country is economically depressed, it needs the revitalization of monetary stimulus for its people. The government should provide jobs.
The regulatory agencies should do their job protecting them from corporate crooks.

The world is buying into the myths that deprivation saves money. Ireland is caught up in that myth.

More money for schools, hospitals, work, work training, and very important, the cultural arts which unite the country.

Subject: RE: BS: Ireland-What happened?
From: Jim Carroll
Date: 21 Dec 10 - 03:07 PM

"They're meant to be nationalising AIB"
Not quite nationalising Bonnie, just having a greater say - it remains to be seen whether this will just be - as swimming in Morcambe Bay, going through the motions.
Interesting article in the Irish Times this morning discussing how answerable to the law big buisness is compared to the rest of us; the heading says it all - "Two-teir System Puts Corporate Criminals Above The Law".
What did the Duke say "Things have got to change in order to remain the same".
Jim Carroll

Subject: RE: BS: Ireland-What happened?
From: Bonnie Shaljean
Date: 21 Dec 10 - 01:30 PM

That guarantee expired in September, but there's supposed to be some other not-very-clearly-specified security measure in place. They're meant to be nationalising AIB and 85% of Bank of Ireland, and Anglo already is - this move is described as making the deposits "doubly secure", but I'm not sure who's doing the describing, or whom to believe, so I can't say any more. Your guess is as good as mine as to what that actually means. I'm hazy on the situation and don't want to mislead either you or myself, but there is some Google-able info if you do some searches. (David McWilliams is a good commentator, though I don't know if he's written about this - not checked specifically.)

We're due a general election soon, which could change things. The only good thought is that the government is in such deep shit now - and being watched so closely - that I don't think they're dare lie about it. They're answerable to Europe, who has a vested interest in our economy not collapsing and is monitoring things. But otherwise, dunno.

Anybody else know any more? Jim?

Subject: RE: BS: Ireland-What happened?
From: An Buachaill Caol Dubh
Date: 21 Dec 10 - 12:29 PM

I think it was in 2008 the Irish Government devised a Bank Deposit Guarantee Scheme (can't remember the exact title), to assure the "Plain People of Ireland" that their savings were safe, presumably to forestall a run on the banks. Is this still valid, or are there any limits and conditions? Asking from Scotland, but with connections in Ireland.

Subject: RE: BS: Ireland-What happened?
From: The Sandman
Date: 21 Dec 10 - 09:57 AM

one point about not belonging to the euro,it allows the currency to be devalued.

Subject: RE: BS: Ireland-What happened?
From: Bonnie Shaljean
Date: 21 Dec 10 - 08:55 AM

Excellent post, Chris. Points to ponder. The only thing I feel sure about is that an honest government, which thinks of the welfare of its citizens and not just about lining its own and its allies' pockets, would be a good start - whoever it turns out to be, in whatever form it takes. You're right, public morale & confidence are sub-zero... as we pray we don't get ill or injured... and wave goodbye to the young...

Subject: RE: BS: Ireland-What happened?
From: GUEST,Chris B (Born Again Scouser)
Date: 21 Dec 10 - 08:18 AM

I agree up to a point, Bonnie, but I also think that once you look past the immediate fiscal crisis there are longer-term, more fundamental issues of how the country is governed. This isn't particularly a party issue. It's more to do with the mechanisms of government itself. Economically, the measures proposed seem to me to be inevitably deflationary to the extent that even if the deficit is reduced to the proportions the IMF wants, then once that happens the country will be so impoverished that it won't be able to begin developing again. In the meantime many of the best and brightest young minds will once again be lost. I don't have any more answers than anyone else but the idea of the government of the country carrying on as normal as per the current system when (or if) the current fiscal crisis is 'resolved' seems unlikely to me. I think what with the financial crisis, the collapse of trust in politicians and political institutions and (let's not forget) the massive psychological and moral trauma highlighted by the Ryan report last year then for me, all the assumptions about what sort of country and society Ireland is and has been have been called into question. I think it may be a while before we see anything resembling answers emerging but for me, a decentralised, federal system of government is at least worth looking at. People have seen how a centralised, Dublin-based state has failed. This presents as much of an opportunity as a problem.

Subject: RE: BS: Ireland-What happened?
From: Bonnie Shaljean
Date: 21 Dec 10 - 06:40 AM

Good point, Dick. But we'd still have to make a go of it on the trading markets. Not sure we have the resources to do that. I'm not saying Yea or Nay, however. But I don't feel optimistic.

Subject: RE: BS: Ireland-What happened?
From: The Sandman
Date: 21 Dec 10 - 06:36 AM

we could still be part of europe and not have the euro, look at the uk, or we could be similiar to norway with their own currency but not part of europe but with similiar trade and other agreements

Subject: RE: BS: Ireland-What happened?
From: Bonnie Shaljean
Date: 21 Dec 10 - 06:32 AM

Let's see how (read if) the recovery measures work out (or don't) first. This is primarily a financial issue, not a nationalistic one, and it would have been largely avoidable with some foresight and precautionary measures by the government. The country is a vastly different place from what it was in the 1920's: I don't know how many here would want to risk becoming an independent entity right now, or how - realistically - we'd cope.

One big difference in the times is that we are now part of Europe and all share a common currency. For the euro's sake, the EC needs for Ireland not to fail economically. Just have to wait and see, though it's going to be a long haul.

Subject: RE: BS: Ireland-What happened?
From: GUEST,Chris B (Born Again Scouser)
Date: 21 Dec 10 - 06:08 AM

I remember when I was a kid growing up in Whitton there were some old prefab sheds standing by some allotments at the bottom of the road. They were put up after the war as emergency low-cost housing and were only expected to last a few years - yet there they were, 20 years later, still in use.

It strikes me that the Irish state is a bit like that - it was only designed to be a stop-gap measure pending a permanent settlement of the National question (at least, that was how it was sold). It was set up with a legislative system based on the Westminster model partly, in my view, in order to be able to accommodate the North when the Protestant majority 'saw sense' and decided they wanted to be part of a united Ireland after all.

Well, that never happened and in the 26 counties, republicanism became superseded within the political establishment (particularly Fianna Fail) by 26-county nationalism and a political machine that in fact had a vested interest in partition - unification would have threatened their own political dominance within the Catholic state.

Now the whole constitutional basis of the 26-county state has collapsed with the end of Irish sovereignty. Republicanism is potentially in crisis as well since there appears now to be no Republic to fight for.

Subject: RE: BS: Ireland-What happened?
From: The Sandman
Date: 20 Dec 10 - 07:42 AM

that should read, you have shat here too long , be gone

Subject: RE: BS: Ireland-What happened?
From: GUEST,Jim Martin
Date: 20 Dec 10 - 07:25 AM

"Whatever - just take it somewhere else! It may be dead interesting to you but it's also dead distracting from the subject of this particular thread. As I said, those who want to can still follow it... "

Well said Bonnie.

Subject: RE: BS: Ireland-What happened?
From: The Sandman
Date: 19 Dec 10 - 06:38 PM

Tom Barry like many others risked his life fighting for independence, I am certain that the Ireland they envisaged that they were fighting towards, was not the country we have right now .
A country filed with cute hoors, who seem to be only concerned with retiring with a fat pension.
we have witnessed a series of monumental cock ups, and displays of incompetence ranging from billions wasted on useless electoral voting machines to the unbelievable bailing out of extremely wealthy bond holders in anglo irish bank .
To quote Cromwell[ You have shat here to long be gone.

Subject: RE: BS: Ireland-What happened?
From: Bonnie Shaljean
Date: 19 Dec 10 - 05:01 PM

Thanks for that, Al, I appreciate it...

Subject: RE: BS: Ireland-What happened?
From: GUEST,Alan Whittle
Date: 19 Dec 10 - 05:00 PM

Bonnie when I said you were talking bollocks, I meant only in a good way. Because you are a nice lady and a great musician and i love and respect you.

Subject: RE: BS: Ireland-What happened?
From: Keith A of Hertford
Date: 19 Dec 10 - 03:59 PM

Alan, I just realised who you are.
It was your dad's unit that reminded me.
Hope your health is better.
keith.

Subject: RE: BS: Ireland-What happened?
From: Richie Black (misused acct, bad email)
Date: 19 Dec 10 - 03:29 PM

Sorry Jim, I had a mobile at my ear when I wrote that. Nice to see not all freestaters are thick !

Subject: RE: BS: Ireland-What happened?
From: Jim Carroll
Date: 19 Dec 10 - 12:56 PM

"This is a guy on youtube has got it right."
That says all that needs to be said.
Jim Carroll

Subject: RE: BS: Ireland-What happened?
From: Richie Black (misused acct, bad email)
Date: 19 Dec 10 - 11:37 AM

This is a guy on youtube has got it right.

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=koY6kXhQDQo

Subject: RE: BS: Ireland-What happened?
From: Keith A of Hertford
Date: 19 Dec 10 - 11:04 AM

OK, until your next blooper.
(That is true about Divis and me)

Subject: RE: BS: Ireland-What happened?
From: Jim Carroll
Date: 19 Dec 10 - 10:29 AM

Agree absolutely Bonnie - everything that's to be said on the subject has been said as far as I'm concerned; people can make up their own minds.
Jim Carroll

Subject: RE: BS: Ireland-What happened?
From: Bonnie Shaljean
Date: 19 Dec 10 - 09:58 AM

Whatever - just take it somewhere else! It may be dead interesting to you but it's also dead distracting from the subject of this particular thread. As I said, those who want to can still follow it...

Subject: RE: BS: Ireland-What happened?
From: GUEST,Alan Whittle
Date: 19 Dec 10 - 09:55 AM

Honestly Bonnie - this is dead interesting from an outsiders point of view.

There used to be this guy on mudcat - his handle was Divis Sweeney. Pro IRA, but helluva nice guy. He used to think I was a pacifist (which I was, compared to him!)

Anyway him and Keith usd to go at it hammer and tongues, like Keith and Jim just did.

I used to get these anguished pms and e-mails from Divis - Oh God!Keith is winding me up so-oo much! Anyway in the fullness of time Divis buggered off to spend his time more fruitfully.

I said to Keith - now look what you've done!

Keith wrote back, You got it wrong Al! Divis is my mate, we talk about all sorts of things in a very friendly way...
(This may not be precise quotations Keith - I'm just trying to give a flavour of it)

Could it be - you're misinterpreting the signs Keith - like Ralph McTell's parrot? (the parrot thinks Ralph is sending love messages when he keeps repeating words, trying to teach it to speak)

What I mean is Jim (correct me if I'm wrong) isn't sending love messages.

Subject: RE: BS: Ireland-What happened?
From: Bonnie Shaljean
Date: 19 Dec 10 - 09:36 AM

This squabble really has nothing to do with the current situation in Ireland. Can it please be taken to another thread, so those who want to can follow it and the rest of us can get a break from it? Please?

Subject: RE: BS: Ireland-What happened?
From: Keith A of Hertford
Date: 19 Dec 10 - 09:11 AM

Alan, my cards on the table.
When Jim makes ludicrous posts, like blaming the current crisis on Britain's handling of Irish independence, or saying that Britain was pro fascist during WW2, I can not resist challenging.
I do not enjoy the hurtful lies he tells about me, but he does that for want of argument, and I do then enjoy exposing that.

Jim,
You posted an anti semetic song as evidence of Britains pro fascism.
I gave an anti fascist song to show that it was not evidence.

Your song was written by a known anti semite, so no surprise there.
There is no evidence that any other person in the world ever sung it.
Has anyone even heard of it before.
My anti fascist song was a popular hit, along with Hang Out the Washing On The Siegfried Line, White Cliffs Of Dover, We'll Meet Again, and all the other pro war songs.

You know I am not anti semite because I defended Israel against you in long threads. Just a convenient lie to discredit me.
Your anti Israel stuff was so bitter that others called you anti semite.
I did not.

Subject: RE: BS: Ireland-What happened?
From: Jim Carroll
Date: 19 Dec 10 - 07:59 AM

Alan
No - I don't enjoy it - it is yet another pointless exercise in tail-chasing which ***** up threads, usually about something I care about deeply.
Each time I promise myself I won't do it again - New Year's coming up - maybe this time.
Apologies to all
Jim Carroll

Subject: RE: BS: Ireland-What happened?
From: GUEST,Alan Whittle
Date: 19 Dec 10 - 07:49 AM

Keith and Jim....?

Cards on the table......do you enjoy this stuff (on the quiet)?

Theres lots of different people in Ireland and england, and pretty obviously, there were all kinds of shades of opinion. I mean, really who the fuck knows what was going on in the heads of people eighty years ago.

However if you're enjoying yourselves, let me be the very last one to interrupt. Is this the foreplay, or the main event in your relationship?

Subject: RE: BS: Ireland-What happened?
From: Bonnie Shaljean
Date: 19 Dec 10 - 07:28 AM

I think it will come out of it in time - and I mean a lot of time, measurable in years, maybe even a decade - but it will surely never go back to the crazy bling years, nor should it. It's a good question as to what "business as usual" even is.

When I moved here in 1991 it was in the midst of a depression, with dole queues around the block. (I hadn't realised how dire the situation was, and only a government-funded FÁS job and later my specialised skills as a harp teacher saved me.) Then the economy started to pick up, largely because of easy credit, and things got silly - you could see it happening all around you. People here weren't used to having plenty of "money" and it just went wild (prices did too).

Now the inevitable collapse has come, as it was always going to, and I can't see us ever going back to the Celtic [Paper] Tiger years because that situation is unsustainable by its very nature. Some kind of "normality" will eventually emerge as things level out, but it's hard to tell exactly what form that will take because we have come through so many contrasts in such a short time. Meanwhile, we're left with huge fallout - not only economic austerity but emigration of youth/talent/brains and truly heartbreaking landscape pollution.

I could not agree more heartily with your last three sentences.