BS: Ireland-What happened?

Subject: RE: BS: Ireland-What happened?
From: mikesamwild
Date: 19 Dec 10 - 07:04 AM

Can we expect Ireland to come out of all this and just go back to 'business as usual' as UK seems to expect and hope, or do we all need to seek another way that aims for sustainable development and a serious attempt to arrest climate change?.


Despite all the local cold spots global mean temperature is increasing all the time.

Only a unified European approach can help our countries to do this so the old divisions must be healed and truth and reconciliation will have to be part of that. So all these issues are linked.

Subject: RE: BS: Ireland-What happened?
From: Jim Carroll
Date: 19 Dec 10 - 06:24 AM

Oh - and 200 and you blew it!

Subject: RE: BS: Ireland-What happened?
From: Jim Carroll
Date: 19 Dec 10 - 05:25 AM

No - on second thoughts - put up AND piss of
Jim Carroll

Subject: RE: BS: Ireland-What happened?
From: Jim Carroll
Date: 19 Dec 10 - 04:51 AM

"they have your blessing, and you still appear to regard anti-Semitism as little more than a sit-com -"
"Silly songs don't count, or I could post "Who Do You Think You Are Kidding Mr Hitler" as proof to the contrary!"
Now put up or piss off.
Jim Carroll

Subject: RE: BS: Ireland-What happened?
From: Keith A of Hertford
Date: 19 Dec 10 - 04:23 AM

Do not complain about thread drift Jim.
You brought the 90 year old Irish Independance issue to this debate.
Serious or not, Dick's post needed to be challenged, and you did challenge it.

Britain did not involve itself in Spain's civil war. Only Germany did.
Britain was not at all ambivalent to the rise of Fascism, despite the diplomatic niceties.
We were just unable to do anything about it, and even in 1939 were still dangerously weak.

"Britain went into the war when it had no other alternative"
FALSE

"and when it did, it was as a defence measure"
FALSE

"You still refuse to comment on the presence of pro-Nazis in the British Establisment"
I have debated this before. I know a few barmy aristocrats and one pathetic ex king were fascist sympathisers. Every country had them.

"they have your blessing, and you still appear to regard anti-Semitism as little more than a sit-com -"
FILTHY LIE.

Subject: RE: BS: Ireland-What happened?
From: Jim Carroll
Date: 19 Dec 10 - 03:50 AM

Once again you attempt to cover up your gaffs by taking the subject up yet another cul-de-sac - have a good trip.
In the period immediately preceeding WW2 Britain's attitude to the rise of Nazism was ambivilent, to say the least. It maintained friendly diplomatic relations with Germany, despite the rise of anti-Semitism, Kristelnacht, the pogroms, et al. It did nothing about the rise of fascism in Italy, the fascist military coup Spain ("I had a very friendly and pleasant talk, (with Hitler) on Spain, where he too said he had never had any territorial ambitions" - Nevil Chamberlain, Autumn, 1938) or the invasion of Czechoslovakia, the annexation of Austria, Bohemia and Moravia...... Britain was quite prepared to see the spread of fascism - as long as it didn't affect Britain.
Britain went into the war when it had no other alternative, and when it did, it was as a defence measure, not as a fight against fascism (unlike the Spanish Civil War - when the rise of fascism could have been halted).
You still refuse to comment on the presence of pro-Nazis in the British Establisment, so I presume they have your blessing, and you still appear to regard anti-Semitism as little more than a sit-com - Silence is Eloquent, as the song should have said.
The point of all this is the supposed connection between Nazism and The IRA - no more evident there than in Britain.
This unbelieveably irrelevant thread drift came about with Dick's somewhat off the wall comments about Tom Barry and the IRA - personally, I don't take Dick's remarks seriously; I'm not sure even he believes them and is not acting the Devil's Advocate - you on the other hand appear to be deadly serious in your flag-waving defence of a system in meltdown.
I mistrust all forms of nationalism, British, Irish, German.... whatever, but I do believe that in the long term the centuries-old Irish Question has to be solved if Ireland is to have a peaceful and prosporous future, and that is the only relevance this thread-drift has to the subject in hand.
So unless you have anything new to add to the discussion - let's leave it there and let people get on with what this thread was started to discuss, the present economic crisis.
Jim Carroll

Subject: RE: BS: Ireland-What happened?
From: Keith A of Hertford
Date: 19 Dec 10 - 02:00 AM

I do not doubt that you heard your apocryphal story (that you posted as fact!) many times.
It is Irish Republican, anti British, made up propaganda.

I ask again, would you prefer the war came earlier and we lost?
We so nearly lost as it was.
In 1940 our army was defeated, we could not prevent the destruction of our cities, and our vital Merchant Marine all but wiped out.
Everyone from Churchill down expected invasion and defeat.
But we chose to fight on.

A true anti fascist would be filled with gratitude and admiration.
Where is yours Jim?

Subject: RE: BS: Ireland-What happened?
From: Keith A of Hertford
Date: 18 Dec 10 - 03:51 PM

You are right that Germany worked a miracle of rearmament.
Hitler persuaded his people to go without butter so they could have guns.
Do you deny that they were militarily much stronger than Britain and France?
Would you have preferred Britain decalred war earlier and lost?

"No more than you are trying to make Ireland sound like a nation of fascists "
Dishonest.
I kept saying that the overwhelming majority of Irish people supported our fight.

And, we could have just let them have Poland.
Some did argue for that.
They got short shrift.
But you do not admire Britain's stance?
Why not Jim.

Subject: RE: BS: Ireland-What happened?
From: GUEST,Peter Laban
Date: 18 Dec 10 - 03:14 PM

My post was responding to Framus. Crossposted with Jim's.

Subject: RE: BS: Ireland-What happened?
From: GUEST,Peter Laban
Date: 18 Dec 10 - 02:53 PM

Begob, I think you're right. Here's me bus. Cheers.

Subject: RE: BS: Ireland-What happened?
From: Jim Carroll
Date: 18 Dec 10 - 02:51 PM

"This was just 20 years after the Great War that left Britain bankrupt and exhausted."
As it did Germany, but they had no problems declaring war.
"You are trying to make Britain sound like a nation of fascists."
No more than you are trying to make Ireland sound like a nation of fascists - I am pointing out the ambiguity of Britain towards fascism.
My father went to Spain to fight fascism in 1937 - Britain was so 'anti-Fascist that they labelled him a "premature anti-Fascist" and, on his return entered him on their secret service files and had him blacklisted from his job, forcing him to leave home to seek work - now tell me again about the anti-fascist British Govenment I should be so proud of!
Britain might have prevented, or at the very least, slowed down the rise of Nazi Germany had they intervened in Spain - instead, they stood by silently while the newly created Luftwaffe practiced their bombing skills on the people of Madrid and Guernica.
Germany left Britain with no alternative but to go to war.
"The few fascist had no influence on events."
Nor did the tiny handful of Irishmen who became fascists.
And still you continue to support British fascism with your refusal to comment on the Independant article, or withdraw, or even acknowlege your stomach heaving, anti-Semitic comparison of the behaviour of the fascists named in that article with a sit com.
Jim Carroll

Subject: RE: BS: Ireland-What happened?
From: framus
Date: 18 Dec 10 - 02:33 PM

"Oh what a tangled thread we weave" Yes, we're a long way from Duke's original posit, and if this thread had any real clout the country should by now be a smouldering mass of destroyed government offices, bridges, empty buildings &c &c. Possibly these would be diligently being reconstructed by the Plain People of Ireland, aided by immigrants, Jews and the occasional frustrated philosopher and Scottish economist. We would be ruled (or not) by a supreme legislator called Sinead Eirann and entertained by satirical song writing and anti-semitic deceased British politicians.
Whilst awaiting the return of the rubbled edifices to agriculture,(by aforementioned Plain People, &c) all available banjo players, philosophers and poets/satirical songwriters (living or dead) will be re-educating the non banjo players, racists and general bletherers to manufacture those big, brown things for export as proposed by Flann O'Brien many years ago to the gombeens across the water, and any Johnnie foreigner who wants an Irish cow.
Meanwhile, we intellectuals in Mudcat will re-form the Miles na cGopaleen Bureau, and invent ourselves out of the fiscal slough of despond.
At the same time, fierce legions of Leprauhauns, all of whom can trace their ancestry to at least one relation of Brian Boru, will have re-taken the North (The NORTH!) and driven the Sassenach back home (to buy our cows), and harmony will have been restored. WE can then get back to drinking porter (a pint of plain is yer only man) and fighting one another.
So there!
Davy

Subject: RE: BS: Ireland-What happened?
From: GUEST,mg
Date: 18 Dec 10 - 02:09 PM

I have not read this whole thread, but could there be some sort of link with the child abuse scandals? I think EU money was paid to victims and not direct Irish money, but it was over a billion I believe..and are there non-monetary links, traits or whatever..I don't know. mg

Subject: RE: BS: Ireland-What happened?
From: The Sandman
Date: 18 Dec 10 - 02:02 PM

heres to the boys of kilmichael so gallant so noble so true ,who put up the green flag of erin in place of the red white and blue.
unfortunately    fianna fail, bertie ahern and biffo, sold the hard fought independence for short term european silver and encouraged an attitude of corruption, brown envelopes, back handers and a worshipping of mamman

Subject: RE: BS: Ireland-What happened?
From: Keith A of Hertford
Date: 18 Dec 10 - 01:52 PM

"The British Prime Minister brought back a document of appeasement to try and prevent Britain going to war, despite the behavior of Germany both at home and abroad"

This was just 20 years after the Great War that left Britain bankrupt and exhausted.
Years of disarmament meant we were ill prepared for war in 1938.
A massive rearmament programme begun.
A year later the same Prime Minister declared war on Hitler, not the other way around.
You are trying to make Britain sound like a nation of fascists.
The few fascist had no influence on events.

An anti fascist like you must be full of admiration for what Britain did then.
Right Jim?

Subject: RE: BS: Ireland-What happened?
From: Jim Carroll
Date: 18 Dec 10 - 01:29 PM

"I did not mention "Dad's Army" at all!!"
No - you took the theme tune of Dad's Army and compared it with the anti- Semitic song written by a British MP - whence the difference?
"finding a song is not evidence."
The song was part of a long article on British facism at the beginning of WW2 - evidence enough that my anecdote was , far from being "not believeable" (quote) but highly likely
"Name a country that never had any."
We are not talking "a few fascists" - we are talking leading members of the British establishment, including an ex-King of England.
"......and went to war with Hitler.
Did you not know that?"
The British Prime Minister brought back a document of appeasement to try and prevent Britain going to war, despite the behavior of Germany both at home and abroad - did you not know that?
What the IRA did remains to be debated; I hold no brief for them whatever, but whatever they did, they were well matched by actions of members of the establishment in Britain.
Here is the proof again, just in case you feel you would like to comment on it http://www.rense.com/ufo6/nazisym.htm.
Jim Carroll

Subject: RE: BS: Ireland-What happened?
From: Keith A of Hertford
Date: 18 Dec 10 - 01:16 PM

More dishonesty.
I did not mention "Dad's Army" at all!!
I merely offered an anti Fascist song to match your fascist one, making the point that finding a song is not evidence.
Of course I know about a few fascists and anti semites in Britain.
I have discussed them on this forum.
Name a country that never had any.
They were of so little influence here that we took in a hundred thousand Jewish refugees, and went to war with Hitler.
Did you not know that?

And the vast majorty of Irish people supported us in that fight.
Meanwhile the IRA connived to bring the German Stormtroopers and SS into Ireland, and to guide German bombers to their targets.
They boasted of it in their publications, and supported "cleansing" Europe of Jews.
Here is proof, again.
http://www.historyireland.com/volumes/volume13/issue3/features/?id=113841

Subject: RE: BS: Ireland-What happened?
From: Jim Carroll
Date: 18 Dec 10 - 08:29 AM

You really are making a meal of this in defence of British fascism Keith
"I did not describe........ as illogical"
Very true - you said "It is simply not believable," - whence the difference?
You made great play of not being anti Semitic, yet your behaviour here says otherwise.
1. You trivialise anti- Semitism at a time when pogroms, persecution, beatings, dehumanising, ghetoising the German Jewish population was well underway and moving towards the setting up of the death camps, with the active support of leading members of the Brithish establishment, including members of the Royal family; YOU COMPARE THIS TO DAD'S ARMY.
2. You support with your silence the report on British Facism in support of Nazi Germany (do you accept the Independant report - we still don't know?)
3. You divert our attention by taking up something that is in fact totally unimportant - what does it matter who said it?
If the story is apocrypal, which I very much doubt as I have heard it from numerous people down the years who would have been alive at the time ot the event, why on earth does it matter - IT REFLECTS PERFECTLY THE BEHAVIOUR OF MANY ESTABLISHMENT FIGURES - INCLUDING THE WINDSORS - AT THE TIME - tell us it does not.
In the long run who gives a toss - anti-Semitism was just another episode of Dad's Army, or 'Allo, Allo anyway, according to you.
As far as the IRA's links with the Nazis is concerned; there is no suggestion that any such link was anything more than pragmatism in any of the history books, Tim Pat Coogan, Robert Kee, J. Bowyer Bell. The only link with fascism covered in any of these is through O'Duffy's Blueshirts, treated largely as a crank splinter-group.
It was the same pragmatism that brought about Lenin's entering revolutionary Russia in 1917 on a sealed train provided by the Germans, or Britain's embracing Stalinist Russia ("Good old Uncle Joe" was the slogan at the time), or the US taking Von Braun and his team into their rocket building project - or, for that matter, co-operated with some of the world's greatest monsters, Marshal Kee, Papa Doc, General Pinochet.
Anyway, it was only a sit-com, so what does it matter?
Jim Carroll

Subject: RE: BS: Ireland-What happened?
From: Keith A of Hertford
Date: 18 Dec 10 - 05:59 AM

I did not describe "the fact that I am unable to name the MP I believe made the "whineing Yid" statement," as illogical.
I said it was an unsubstantiated statement, which it is.

If you had said "I have a possibly true, vague memory that...." I would have no cause for complaint.
But you put it in quotes, as a statement of fact, which it is not.
That was dishonest.

You must have tried very hard now to find evidence for it.
I have too.
There isn't any.

Subject: RE: BS: Ireland-What happened?
From: Jim Carroll
Date: 18 Dec 10 - 04:56 AM

And if you have any doubt about 'Ministers' being involves, I suggest you read the article in full
Jim Carroll

Subject: RE: BS: Ireland-What happened?
From: Jim Carroll
Date: 18 Dec 10 - 04:55 AM

"He had "no idea" who this minister was,"
You still appear to be grasping at the fact that I am unable to name the MP I believe made the "whineing Yid" statement, and descrivbe it as illogical.
I grew up in the knowledge that leading members of the British establishment were anti-semitic, supported the Nazi's persecution of the Jews at the time when Germany was building up to the gehettoisation, imprisonment, dispossession and eventually, the extermination of the Jewish people (you have compared the behavior of these anti-Semites to a televesion sit-com).
Can you explain why what I described could not have happened in the light of the following, from the Independant article.   
"The Right Club was set up by Captain Archibald Ramsay MP
It offers a chilling insight into the virulence of the anti-Semitism which was rife among peers, MPs, knights of the realm and other leading society figures at that time." - PLEASE NOTE THE REFERENCES TO MP'S
Perhaps you would like to suggest that the writer of the article was lying.
Jim Carroll

Subject: RE: BS: Ireland-What happened?
From: Keith A of Hertford
Date: 18 Dec 10 - 01:38 AM

No, I was just making a point about objectivity.

Subject: RE: BS: Ireland-What happened?
From: The Sandman
Date: 17 Dec 10 - 08:58 PM

you have some nerve comparing Hitler to Tom Barry.

Subject: RE: BS: Ireland-What happened?
From: mikesamwild
Date: 17 Dec 10 - 05:03 PM

Bonnie of course it was a bit of irony.

But here in Sheffield we have loads of speculative flats that are not ocupied and it has been seriously suggested they be taken over for social housing for pople who often have no chance of a job or a home.

When people start pissing in the lifts like in the 60s schemes they can also be blown up ( the flats that is !)

Subject: RE: BS: Ireland-What happened?
From: Keith A of Hertford
Date: 17 Dec 10 - 04:56 PM

GSS, if Hitler were able to write memoirs, we would read that he never supported the Nazis either.
Hanley used as sources actual Republican publications like War News and The United Irishman.
He gives the dates.
You can read it for yourself.

I do share your contempt for people who post unsubstatiated statements.
Jim posted this.
"When the news of the extermination of the Jews reached Britain one Tory Minister described it "the invention of whingeing Yids"."

He had "no idea" who this minister was, and could not even remember where he heard the story, but he still posted it in quotes.
Did you miss that, Dick ?

Subject: RE: BS: Ireland-What happened?
From: The Sandman
Date: 17 Dec 10 - 01:59 PM

I am rubbishing your remarks about the IRA supporting nazi germany, i8 have given you examples of two prominent members of the ira one who actively was against such a policy and the second who was very unlikely to do so because he had fought against fascists, and furhermore no evidence exists against him.
i am not interested in the opinions of BRIAN HANLEY, to quote Henry Ford, history is bunk, i am more interested in the statements of those who were there... like Tom Barry.
now, Keith, would you ever go and spout your imperialistic clap trap elsewhere

Subject: RE: BS: Ireland-What happened?
From: Bonnie Shaljean
Date: 17 Dec 10 - 01:59 PM

Where are the jobs to support them? This trouble was not caused by lack of business know-how. It happened because of dishonesty, greed and cronyism - perpetrated by those with the large-scale powers to pull it off. It's not a matter of "thinking up" a solution, any more than you can think your way around the law of gravity. It's already happened.

Now we're stuck with the consequences, and they're going to take hard cash, not know-how, to fix. Also time. Neither of those can be thought up.

Subject: RE: BS: Ireland-What happened?
From: GUEST,Alan Whittle
Date: 17 Dec 10 - 01:40 PM

Perhaps if you got some Asians living in the houses with a bit of business know how, they could get the economy working again.

Subject: RE: BS: Ireland-What happened?
From: GUEST,Chris B (Born Again Scouser)
Date: 17 Dec 10 - 01:11 PM

Now I'm really worried....

Subject: RE: BS: Ireland-What happened?
From: Keith A of Hertford
Date: 17 Dec 10 - 01:06 PM

Chris, you have a point.

GSS,
"keith willyou stop making statements that cant be baxcked up "

My statements were backed up by Brian Hanley, Professor of Irish History at The University of Ireland, in a piece published in THE leading journal of Irish History in the world.

What are your qualifications for rubbishing all that, Dick?

Subject: RE: BS: Ireland-What happened?
From: GUEST,Chris B (Born Again Scouser)
Date: 17 Dec 10 - 01:04 PM

Bloody hell, Dick. What is it with you and blowing things up?

Subject: RE: BS: Ireland-What happened?
From: The Sandman
Date: 17 Dec 10 - 11:45 AM

it would be better to blow the empty buildings up, employ people on changing the empty concrete jungles back to farm land

Subject: RE: BS: Ireland-What happened?
From: GUEST,Chris B (Born Again Scouser)
Date: 17 Dec 10 - 10:52 AM

Keith, I don't agree that the circumstances surrounding the beginnings of Irish 'Independence' are irrelevant.

That independence (such as it was) developed gradually between the election of the first Dail in 1919, through the treaty and civil war in 1922-3, the formation of Fianna Fail and the abolition of the Oath of Allegiance in 1937 through the period of wartime neutrality and the eventual departure of the 26 counties from the Commonwealth in 1948 following John A Costello's decision to cut the last remaining ties with the British Crown (Following that decision King George VI wrote a letter to Costello wishing the Republic well for the future and thanking Irish people for their contribution to the war against Nazi Germany).

During that period a corrupt, nominally nationalist political class and a confessional state developed in the 26 counties at the same time as an equally corrupt loyalist state developed in the North. Viewed in that context, the history of Ireland over the last 90 years can be viewed as the story of two failed experiments: partition and 26-county 'Independence'.

I think the word I'm looking for is 'Discuss'. Probably a waste of breath, though.

Subject: RE: BS: Ireland-What happened?
From: The Sandman
Date: 17 Dec 10 - 10:06 AM

keith a, I prefer to listen to what Barry actually said, rather than relying on a certain slant from a biased historian.
Barry actually led several battles against the blue shirts who were fascists and nazi sympathisers.
it is extremeely unlikely that frank ryan supported nazi germany, in view of the fact he fought the fascists in spain, there is no evidenc e to support the idea that Ryan supported nazi germany.
keith willyou stop making statements that cant be baxcked up

Subject: RE: BS: Ireland-What happened?
From: Bonnie Shaljean
Date: 17 Dec 10 - 09:48 AM

I'm assuming your proposal about housing refugees was tongue-in cheek. Because of course you will have asked yourself what they are all going to live on. No jobs, no state money to support them with, health and social services slashed by a government that can't even look after its own. Why do you think the young & able are leaving in the first place? But then, you knew that, didn't you?

Subject: RE: BS: Ireland-What happened?
From: mikesamwild
Date: 17 Dec 10 - 09:18 AM

Funny but intersting how threads drift.


How about Ireland offering all the empty buildings to modern refugees from tyranny and persecution so that history will judge the Irish as kindly as the British. They could compensate for all those young irish people who are emigrating for work.


By the way was Frank Ryan in Germany to further the attack on England? He was a comrade of my dad's in Spain but I can find no conclusive evidence one way or the other..Very confused times.

Subject: RE: BS: Ireland-What happened?
From: GUEST,Peter Laban
Date: 17 Dec 10 - 06:11 AM

A bit different here, they kept pushing €20K pre-approved loans at us. Was never tempted to use them though.

Goes a bit towards explaining the amount of bad debt the banks are now stuck with. The Boom was all funny money, borrowings going around.

Subject: RE: BS: Ireland-What happened?
From: GUEST,Alan Whittle
Date: 17 Dec 10 - 05:47 AM

Well I'm sure both countries have a lot to be proud of, which really makes it doubly infuriating that we've both ended up in the shit economically.

In Ireland, you reckon you've lent money to builders who can't sell their houses. In England, it turns out we've been lending money to Russian gangsters who never even built any houses.

Back in the 1980's, I went to my bank to ask them to borrow a few hundred quid to get the tax people off my back. the manager wanted to know how much I earned a month. I explained I was a musician and some months I did quite well and some months I didn't make anything much. Blank incomprehension.

I ended up having to borrow the money from my father in law.

These buggers in banks never seem to get it right.

Subject: RE: BS: Ireland-What happened?
From: Keith A of Hertford
Date: 17 Dec 10 - 05:34 AM

My figures stand Peter.
No country did more.
100 000 saved, and defying the Nazis alone in 1940.

Subject: RE: BS: Ireland-What happened?
From: GUEST,Peter Laban
Date: 17 Dec 10 - 05:22 AM

This seems to cover the various numbers accurately.

Where Jewish refugees are concerned at that period, I don't think there's much any country has reason to be proud of.

Subject: RE: BS: Ireland-What happened?
From: Keith A of Hertford
Date: 17 Dec 10 - 04:49 AM

Approximately 40,000 Jews from Austria and Germany were eventually allowed to settle in Britain before the War, in addition to 50,000 Jews from Italy, Poland, and elsewhere in Eastern Europe.
Beyond that the Kindertransport, an effort on the eve of war to transport Jewish children (their parents were not given visas) from Germany to Britain. Around 10,000 children were saved by the Kindertransport.

That is 100 000 Jewish refugees from the Nazis welcomed into Britain.
Which country did more Peter?
I am still proud of what my country did in those dark days.

Subject: RE: BS: Ireland-What happened?
From: GUEST,Peter Laban
Date: 17 Dec 10 - 04:42 AM

Meanwhile, on topic, Ireland's credit rating rated lowered further

Subject: RE: BS: Ireland-What happened?
From: GUEST,Peter Laban
Date: 17 Dec 10 - 04:38 AM

'I am proud of that, as I am proud that Britain was a refuge for tens of thousands of Jewish refugees'

In fairness, if you want to bring this up, Britain imposed strict regulations and denied large numbers of Jewish refugees entry during the second half of the 1930s and left them in dire straits. S o be careful what you're proud of.

This is not the thread to go into that though.

Subject: RE: BS: Ireland-What happened?
From: Keith A of Hertford
Date: 17 Dec 10 - 04:11 AM

Chris B, you are right.
I do not know why Jim thought it relevant to bring in Britain's handling of Irish independence 90 years ago, but if you do not challenge his tosh he takes it that you have accepted the truth of it.
Similarly when GSS brought in pre war IRA strategies.

Subject: RE: BS: Ireland-What happened?
From: Keith A of Hertford
Date: 17 Dec 10 - 04:08 AM

Jim, if Britain had not been prepared to fight on alone against the Nazis, they would have been able to complete their genocide of European Jews, to the applause of the IRA.
I am proud of that, as I am proud that Britain was a refuge for tens of thousands of Jewish refugees.
To brand me as a holocaust denier is the most wicked lie you have yet told about me.

Subject: RE: BS: Ireland-What happened?
From: Jim Carroll
Date: 17 Dec 10 - 03:47 AM

"Who was it?"
Take your pick Keith - it could have been anybody named in the above Independent article which you haven't commented on except to trivialise the fact that many leading British figures, on the eve of the war had formed a Pro-fascist, anti Semitic organisation to support Hitler - you have neutralised this fact to the level of a sit-com. You haven't yet used the term 'Holo-hoax' yet, but it's not far away.
You seem to get off on other people's misery and suffering, Irish, Palestinian, now Jews - yet seem to have problems emerging from your own political closet.
You really are a right-wing scumbag without the bottle to put your own views on the line - I'm sure if you look hard enough you'll find something to cut-n-paste which sums you up.
I'm off.
Jim Carroll

Subject: RE: BS: Ireland-What happened?
From: GUEST,Chris B (Born Again Scouser)
Date: 17 Dec 10 - 02:56 AM

I think when Duke started this discussion by asking the question 'Ireland - what happened' he wasn't particularly thinking of what happened during World War 2. Duke doesn't appear to have re-visitied this thread. Can't say I blame him.

Subject: RE: BS: Ireland-What happened?
From: Keith A of Hertford
Date: 17 Dec 10 - 01:44 AM

GSS, this is by a leading authority on Irish History.
The sources are actual Republican publications.
It was published in what Jim acknowledges to be Ireland's leading History journal.
Those who see the IRA through rose tinted glass prepare to be shocked.
Especially on the subject of Jew Cleansing.


Following the fall of France, Russell urged that the German high command make use of the IRA to strike at British forces in Northern Ireland as part of a general attack on Britain. His plans were accepted and incorporated into Operation Sealion (the plan for the invasion of Britain), a mark of the 'respect and esteem' in which Russell was held by the German military leadership. During August Russell was to return to Ireland to oversee the implementation of these plans, but on his journey home by U-boat he became ill and died. His body was buried at sea with full German naval honours.

The above information comes not from one of Russell's many critics, eager to paint him as a collaborator with the Nazis, but from the republican newspaper The United Irishman of October 1951. The article was published to coincide with the unveiling of a monument to Russell in Dublin's Fairview Park and concluded that he was a 'worthy successor to Tone and Casement'. Quite apart from that questionable assessment, what is notable about the article is the utter lack of embarrassment that the leader of the IRA was a guest of the Nazis during a period in which the German armies invaded and forcibly occupied five sovereign nations.



However, in July 1940 the IRA leadership issued a statement outlining its position on the war. The statement made clear that if 'German forces should land in Ireland, they will land . . . as friends and liberators of the Irish people'. The public was assured that Germany desired neither 'territory nor . . . economic penetration' in Ireland but only that it should play its part in the 'reconstruction' of a 'free and progressive Europe'. The Third Reich was also praised as the 'energising force' of European politics and the 'guardian' of national freedom. In response to critics such as George Bernard Shaw, who had drawn attention to Hitler's anti-Catholic policies, the IRA countered that both 'Herr Hitler and Signor Mussolini' proved their lack of bias by helping to establish the 'Catholic government' of Franco in Spain.

The IRA's statements drew angry responses from Irish Freedom, published by the Connolly Association, and Irish Workers Weekly, published by the Communist Party of Ireland, who criticised the IRA for inviting 'German soldiers to come and devastate the country they talk of freeing'. These papers also noted how the IRA and their 'strange bedfellow General O'Duffy' were lauding as 'liberators' powers that held 'Abyssinia, Austria, Albania and Czechoslovakia' in subjection.

War News, the IRA's main publication, became increasingly pro-Nazi in tone, even claiming active IRA involvement in the German bombing of British cities. But more chillingly it began to ape anti-Semitic arguments. Satisfaction was expressed that the 'cleansing fire' of the German armies was driving the Jews from Europe.

Subject: RE: BS: Ireland-What happened?
From: GUEST,Alan Whittle
Date: 16 Dec 10 - 09:28 PM

Well my Dad fought in Guards armoured Division of the Irish guards in the war. he reckoned none of the blokes from Ireland who were serving alongside him were sent home on leave in their unforms, cos it wasn't thought safe.

I suppose the army was frightened of the IRA assasinating them.

not exactly anti-Hitler then.

Subject: RE: BS: Ireland-What happened?
From: The Sandman
Date: 16 Dec 10 - 08:24 PM

The IRA sided with Hitler.
can you prove this