BS: Racial Slurs in Quotations

Subject: RE: BS: Racial Slurs in Quotations
From: McGrath of Harlow
Date: 11 Dec 10 - 06:27 PM

I don't think the World Wars were brought about by foreigners adopting the Kaiser's terminology.

Subject: RE: BS: Racial Slurs in Quotations
From: GUEST,Grishka
Date: 11 Dec 10 - 01:51 PM

McGrath,

where no insult is intended, and no insult is experienced

there may still be listeners or readers who feel "what a rude (or thoughtless) person!" As I wrote, there are some criteria for insults, objective or historical.

If the Kaiser had been killed for his boast (and, better still, for his other more evil and stupid words and actions), you could be right. But, as you know, he spent the rest of his life in the Netherlands, exiled but not imprisoned, not even expropriated. Instead, other Germans were declared fair game by British and French propagandists, even after WWI was over (and even until now, if I take your words for face value). Germany had become a democratic republic, but the propaganda war continued on both sides, in political statements and in newspapers. Millions from many nations died in the in the resulting two wars - do you think that served the Kaiser right?

Subject: RE: BS: Racial Slurs in Quotations
From: McGrath of Harlow
Date: 11 Dec 10 - 11:01 AM

I'd agree that when an insult is untended it may remain an insult even if no none feels insulted. The same can be true when no insult is intended, but someone feels insulted. But I'd draw the line at the situation where no insult is intended, and no insult is experienced.
.........................

I'd say "Hun" was a case of a boast being turned upon the boaster, so that it became an insult, and that's fair enough in principle. I can't see the analogy with "his blood be upon us", which can't be classed as any kind of a boast.

Subject: RE: BS: Racial Slurs in Quotations
From: GUEST,Grishka
Date: 11 Dec 10 - 10:39 AM

Note: an insult is an insult even if none of the insulted is present, or representatives of the target group do not feel insulted. The insulter's reputation may be lost, any valid argument discredited. Take that into account.

For writers the rules are stricter than for sports fans or soldiers talking among themselves.

Subject: RE: BS: Racial Slurs in Quotations
From: Bobert
Date: 11 Dec 10 - 10:35 AM

That's the funny thing about words and context...

Where I live in Virginia the folks who live in the "hollows", commonly known as "hollers" amongst mountain dwellers, are called "Holler Honeys" and commonly use the term pronounced "Hun" in speakin' to one another...

But now if you drive outta the holler and into town (Luray) which is just 9 miles from here the townies are clueless about "Hun" and when the mountain people come to town and use it, especially when it is a male talkin' to another male, they get that strange look...

Now back to the topic, Huns...

LOL...

B~

p.s. That is a true story...

Subject: RE: BS: Racial Slurs in Quotations
From: GUEST,Grishka
Date: 11 Dec 10 - 10:22 AM

"Hun" is among the most poisonous propaganda insults ever conceived, because of its connotations "barbaric, cruel, opposed to European culture" (not racist though, since the original Huns were known to associate with any ethnic group willing to pay tribute). To top it, the idea is "they said it themselves, so it's their own fault" (meaning Kaiser Wilhelm, grandson to Queen Victoria; see above), comparable to the anti-Judaist interpretation of "His blood be upon us and on our children" (Matthew 27:24–25).

The words "Jerry" and "Jap" as such have been built like "Aussie", their offensiveness is an effect of history and of the context.

First names and dishes must never be used to describe nations. "Races" must not be referred to collectively at all when talking about societies.

Some names are acceptable if used for national sports teams, but not for entire nations. "Poms win in Oz" sounds cute, "Poms elect Cameron" would be questionable.

Subject: RE: BS: Racial Slurs in Quotations
From: Dave MacKenzie
Date: 11 Dec 10 - 10:22 AM

Of course, Aryan is a cognate of Iranian.

Subject: RE: BS: Racial Slurs in Quotations
From: GUEST,BobL
Date: 11 Dec 10 - 04:39 AM

I always understood "Hun" to be a dig at the Nazis' claim to racial (i.e. Aryan) superiority.

Subject: RE: BS: Racial Slurs in Quotations
From: robomatic
Date: 10 Dec 10 - 11:56 PM

Briefly: If you're using a quotation, and it's in quotes, you have to use the original words, otherwise it isn't a quotation.

I think an argument can be made that if the text is directed at children, it should be bowdlerized, but then don't pretend you're quoting anyone. Just leave that out.

If you're writing for grownups, treat them as such.

Growing up in America as I did, I thought the term 'Jerry' for German in WWII was pretty innocuous, like calling him 'Fritz'. And it was mostly an English term. Americans didn't typically use the term 'Jerry' or 'Hun' and I never thought of them as being used or taken offensively. They don't have a harsh tang or reference, at least to this American. The term 'kraut' comes up and defintely has a pungency, because it appears to refer to sauerkraut. But I'm not aware that there is any racial epithet for Germans because they're just white folks. And probably more Americans until recently are at least partially German than any other European stock. I remember reading in Andy Rooney's wartime reminiscence that as the European war settled into an occupation, the Americans discoveed that the people they were most 'like' were the Germans.

Shortening the word 'Japanese' to its first three letters never seemed such a terrible thing to me, but it's how a word is taken not how it is offered that dominates, and I would never use it on my fellow Americans of Japanese descent, some of whom are my relatives. At the same time, a quote is a quote.

As for racial attitudes, the war itself modifed our racial attitudes, and for sure that of the Germans. It probably affected Japanese racial attitudes the least.

As for Mark Twain, I wouldn't change a word of Tom Sawyer or Huckleberry Finn. Mark Twain made no casual use of the n word. He knew exactly what he was doing, he was talking about racism, only in words suited to his upbringing and his times. There's a famous interchange that takes only a few lines, but in the passage of question and answer and a single use of the n word, volumes of bigotry are expressed, far beyond any particular race.

one of the main characters refers to a boiler explosion:

"oh dear" says a kind old lady "was anybody hurt?"

"no'm" is the answer, "killed a n-"

Twain knew precisely what he wanted to say and how he wanted to say it.

So did Rodgers and Hammerstein in South Pacific with the song "You've Got to be Carefully Taught"

You've got to be taught
To hate and fear
You've got to be taught
From year to Year
It's got to be drummed
in your dear little ear
You've got to be carefully taught

You've got to be taught
To be Afraid
Of people whose eyes
are oddly made
And people whose skin
Is a different shade
You've got to be carefully taught

You've got to be taught
Before it's too late
Before you are 6 or 7 or 8
To hate all the people
your relatives hate
You've got to be carefully taught

sung by a character who has been taught and cannot escape this teaching despite being made aware of it.

Subject: RE: BS: Racial Slurs in Quotations
From: Bobert
Date: 10 Dec 10 - 04:41 PM

Yeah, Lox, I loved Richard... One cool dude...

Can't disagree with ya' on hip-hop being packaged fir white kids... That's a fact... But it originated in the black culture, just as rock 'n roll, and blues, and soul and a good portion of our pop music today... That's what I was talkin' about... Seems that black folks have *always* been influenced by European culture 'cause it was forced upon them by no choice of their own, i.e. slavery...

I mean, it's very strange to think that back in the 20s and 30s when Black bluesmen were being recorded that these musicans also were playin' all the pop and show tunes of the day... It's just when they got into the recording "studio" (for lack of a better term) they were told to do them "race" songs, i.e. the blues...

So it's no wonder that with civil rights that "Culture Street" was opened up to two-way traffic and that has been alot more profound on white folks takin' in black culture than vice versa... The blacks had 300 years of white culture and reserved their African culture more for themselves.... I mean, right up until the 1900s when some white folks were allowed inside that circle, i.e. Alan Lomax...

As for Richard Pryor??? I understand where he is coming from... There were a lot of blacks that white folks really dug... Richard was one of many... But alot of these folks weren't all that popular with black folks... Bill Cosby is a prime example... To understand this we kinda have to go back to the divide between the black folks I knew in the 60s and 70s and their parents and grandparents... I had the privilege of seein' and appreciating both sides of that divide and being a bluesman have rubbed with both sides of that divide off and on going back to my youth...

So, yeah, I understand Richard... He reminds me of alot of folks I knew back then whos parents won out... That ain't a bad thing at all... I mean, we all went thru some serious battles back then with all the "isms" and all the consciousness raisings by black folk and white folk alike...

Here's where I am with "nigga" today... First of all, it is a little "dated"... I mean, I think that alot of black folks don't use it with knowledge and respect for how it was used by black folks in the 60s and 70s... That's a good thing because it means that we have come a long way... And like you, Lox, I never could bring myself to use it because it as far as I was/am concerned it is a word off limits to white people...

But with that said, I also understand that when white people appoint themselves as monitors of the black culture that there is a colonialism that kinda rides along... That's the part where I go, "Hey, Richard can say what he wants" and so can _____________... That is the rub because "nigga" is being packages to white kids, who like some of the folks who are profiting from rap music today, are clueless about the word, it's history and it's being co=opted by young blacks in the 60s and 70s...

I guess, however, that had black folks not co-opted the word back then and took it away from Jim Crow that it would still be the property of Jim Crow and his kids and grandkids... That's a good thing... Yeah, Redneck Nation still uses the term but in it's European/Colonial "nigger" form and that is bad enough but that's all they have... They can't bring themselves to use "nigga" because even they kinda understand that "nigga" is a term that blacks have co-opted to fight fire with fire and, afterall, rednecks don't want to sound black, for gosh sakes...

B~

Subject: RE: BS: Racial Slurs in Quotations
From: Lox
Date: 10 Dec 10 - 03:14 PM

Bobert,

Rather than try to convince you myself, I'll leave you with the words of Richard Pryor.




                        
"I was wrong"








.

Subject: RE: BS: Racial Slurs in Quotations
From: Lox
Date: 10 Dec 10 - 02:39 PM

.






                      100






.

Subject: RE: BS: Racial Slurs in Quotations
From: Lox
Date: 10 Dec 10 - 02:35 PM

Bobert,

On the subject of "way ahead" etc,

It depends which end of the telescope you're standing at.

If you gradually mix red and blue water, you'll get purple water.

Its called diffusion.

If you're sitting in the blue cup, you'll comment how much redder the world is getting.

If you're sitting in the red cup you'll disagree and point out that things are getting a lot bluer.

So Yes White culture is evolving to include aspects of black culture, but also, black culture is evolving to include aspects of white culture.

This has been going on for a couple of hundred years.

Its only recently that this process has lost a lot of its cultural taboo amongst white people in general.



But I don't want to dwell on that point.


I would prefer it if you would devote your mind to whats coming up next as I think its crucial.

I agree that taking control of "nigger/nigga" is an oft quoted reason for its continued use among black folk, but I question how succesful this "reclaiming" of the word has been and indeed how possible it is to succeed in the first place.

Hip Hop culture has been so absorbed into the music industry these days, that it is no longer a reflection of grass roots black opinion, but is more a reflection of the kind of stereotypes that record companies think will sell to suburban white kids.

And be under no illusions ... the biggest consumers by a long way of Hip Hop are suburban white kids, many in their twenties and thirties ...

So the record companies sell the stereotype, with the help of the rest of the media - cinema, TV, Magazines etc ... and suburban kids buy the stereotype, and consequently the stereotype - of young black men being hustlers, crooks, promiscuous, murderous, self centred, genitally deformed etc etc is kept on a life support - and the name of the stereotype remains "nigga".

Its packaged by advertisers as "positive" and "reclaimed", but is it?

Wll, while many folk may have attempted to reclaim it, in fact, the music industry and the free market have well and truly taken ownership of the copyright, with the exception perhaps of Jay-Z, who bought his label out, but even he knows who his market is, which is why he is a more successful businessman than many of his more credible peers, and he knows what product they are looking to buy.

I would argue that the best you can say is that a small number of black folk, like Jay-Z, have reclaimed the word "nigger/nigga", but only as a commodity that they can sell for 10 bucks a CD to white kids who can't wait to legitimately get their hands on it.

And that my friend is how the orwellian circle turns in the land of opportunity.

Subject: RE: BS: Racial Slurs in Quotations
From: Bobert
Date: 10 Dec 10 - 08:45 AM

Guess we come from differing backgrounds, Lox...

Reminds me of this guy I knew back then, Greasy Easley, who had a way with words... This was when lotta black street guys would hold their hands over their crotches... One day, I asked him why that was and without missin' a beat he said, "White man got everything else, he ain't gettin' this..."

Yeah it is about words...

Now I know I ain't talkin' about the parents and especially the grand-parents of the folks I knew and hung with but the same mentality/consciousness applies toward folks usin' the word "nigga"... "Nigga", "nigger" were used by white folks as a means of maintaining control... Yes, it was intentionally meant to be demeaning...

So, for blacks to co-opt the word was to take it away from whites that element of control... That's about the best it can be explained and I fully understand why blacks did it...

As fir blacks being out front of white people??? From a cultural point it seems that has been the case for a long time... Especially in music... From blues, to rock 'n roll, to rap, to hip-hop it has been the black influence that has far over shadowed the European/white influences... And also in speech... Seems that alot more black speech has crept into modern culture than of European/white... Even style of clothes... I don't think this is an accident or coincidence... I think that alot of black culture has been around along time and it took a sea-change in our society for whites to accept/appreciate what the black culture has to offer...

B~

Subject: RE: BS: Racial Slurs in Quotations
From: Lox
Date: 09 Dec 10 - 09:10 PM

"seems that white folk are way behind black folk on lotta different level"

I don't think its about being behind or in front, its just a matter of each person knowing their history and their own culture and recognizing and understanding the differences.

Thats why its important to understand the history if words too.

The whole thing of "blck consciousness" and "once we were kings" says "we had a unique regal identity before we became niggers".

Black people have such a long history of being classed as "niggers" that it has affected their identity and self perception and black consciousness is a struggle against this.

The word "Nigger" didn't change its meaning after the 60's, look at NWA, and public enemy and the whole of hip hop culture. Defiance and secession from the system is at the core of it - and if you can make eough money to become an independant statem you can boast about what you have and why you don't need anyone else etc.

Yes its solidarity, but the mentality is like solidarity on a chain gang, or among prisoners in a gulag. It is honest solidarity founded on what is perceived as a realistic view of the world.

We are prisoners together, we understand each other, we support each other in struggle and song, we're all we've got.

There are black activists who fight this menatality tooth and nail because they see it as being self imposed bondage when the goal is to be set free.

Subject: RE: BS: Racial Slurs in Quotations
From: Bobert
Date: 09 Dec 10 - 08:10 PM

"Nigga" also means/meant solidarity, Lox... And in that context, there is nuthin' wrong with them term as long as it is being used by black folks... Context is everything...

I mean, let's get real here... Culturally speakin', seems that white folk are way behind black folk on lotta different levels and sometimes just immitatin' 'cause they really haven't spent the time, walked the walk, learned the nuances, heard the stories, sung the songs, spent time in black churches, etc... So white folk lotta time really don't get it at all... Yeah, they got the CD's and they can turn 'um up and go 'round callin' women "bitches" and think that they are all into somethin' that they really know nuthin' about...

Lotta this come outta of a reaction by young black folks in the 60's who were rebellin' against "establishment" black parents and grandparents... I was there and saw it with my own eyes... I knew the parents and the grandparents who my friends were rebelling against... Was a generational thing for young blacks just as it was for young whites...

I mean, their parents and grandparents didn't like their kids callin' each other "nigga' and I understand that entirely... I mean, their parents and grandparents came from another history that was indeed about bondage... The 60s changed that... And with it, the langauge and culture slowly evolved away from "Can't we all just get along" to "Power to the people"...

That's when "nigga" was released from "bondage"... Where Black kids refused to allow "nigga" to be a term that whites used to signify superiority, bondage, fear of control to a term of pride... The black kids threw it back in the face of, not only their parents and grandparents, but also in the face of Jim Crow and Uncle Tom...

I mean, I understand these things... I was a single white face for a long, long time... I mean, in black churches... Teachin' in the jail... Workin' at 2nd and Calhoun at the half-way house... I mean, I'll admit that even with coming from a fmaily that was involved in civil rights, even having had my parents bring a black kid into our family I never had to figure stuff out... The 60s forced alot of figurin' out on lotta us...

So yeah, "nigga" to most white folks is a term that if they don't understand is something they prolly should be real careful talkin' about...

For me??? I have no problem with it but then again I have a much different history and understanding than most white folks... Not that that makes me any wiser, better, worser, 'er... Just they way my life played out back then...

B~

Subject: RE: BS: Racial Slurs in Quotations
From: McGrath of Harlow
Date: 09 Dec 10 - 07:36 PM

There's insults that go too far, and for me "Arsenal supporter" is one.

Subject: RE: BS: Racial Slurs in Quotations
From: GUEST,Bruce Michael Baillie
Date: 09 Dec 10 - 07:25 PM

I've just read through this thread and I've never seen so much bollocks in all my life, do you people have lives beyond pointless arguing?

Subject: RE: BS: Racial Slurs in Quotations
From: Lox
Date: 09 Dec 10 - 06:54 PM

Bobert,

I have had your exact same experience.

I also did not use it in reply.

After years trying to work out why, I'm glad I followed that instinct.

I would add that there are many black people who are 100% opposed to the use of "nigga" as a token of fraternity.

I put it to you, that where we perceive it being used as a token of fraternity, it is in fact a representation of camaraderie under tough circumstances: "we're all in this together, and under no illusions about where we sit in society"

This doesn't change its derogatory meaning, it just makes its usage more sophisticated. In this context it represents defiance in the face of everything that "nigger" represents.

As such it becomes a source of strength and for some an exclusive club.

To be an honourary "nigga" means you are trusted.

Often it is said with affectionate irony, with a twinkle in the eye.

But it would make no sense for you or I to use it as we have a ticket out.

No matter how accepted we are as "nigga's" we always have the choice not to be one - which means we can never really be one - because the whole point is that we have the freedom to be "whitey" too if we want.

"Nigga" represents "bondage"

And not the voluntary kind.

Subject: RE: BS: Racial Slurs in Quotations
From: Bobert
Date: 09 Dec 10 - 06:26 PM

Ummmm, not to be splittin' hairs here but back when I was teachin' GED in the Richomnd City jail and workin' at a drug treatment half-way house I was usually the only white person in the crowd and learned that "nigga" is a term, of endearment between blacks... I mean, black folks would use it only fir folks they liked...

Proudest day that I can remember was the first time that a black used "nigga" in place of my name and after that day seemed that more and more black folks would do the same... I mean, I thought it was the highest compliment 'cause it was showin' that folks saw me as part of "the culture"...

I tried to reciprocate but, havin' come from a family that was active in civil rights, it never felt right... But it sho nuff felt good to be called "nigga"...

B~

Subject: RE: BS: Racial Slurs in Quotations
From: Lox
Date: 09 Dec 10 - 05:33 PM

I disagree with that definiton of "whitey".

I would put "whitey" in the same category as "the man".

When "whitey" has been used by black poets or musicians, it has been used in this context.

"the man" represented self serving and unsympathetic white authority.

The plantation owner was "whitey", the Ku Klux Klan was "whitey", and today Dick Cheney is definitely "whitey".

"the man" later went on to mean authority generally as white groups like bikers etc began to borrow from black speech and culture etc, but it has a definite black root.

Here's an example of how "whitey" was used.

It isn't a poem about you or me, its a poem that attempts to convey a feeling, contemporary to that time, that many Black Americans had, that though he might live in the same town, "whitey" might as well be on the moon for all the chance that black people had of sharing his lifestyle.

"whitey" was a ghetto word, that was sometimes said in anger, and on some occasions even with violence.

But, (forget ballpark), it does not inhabit the same universe or have anything like the same grotesque deformed hideous perverse power, connotations or meaning as the word "nigger".

Subject: RE: BS: Racial Slurs in Quotations
From: GUEST,Jim Knowledge
Date: 09 Dec 10 - 10:08 AM

I `ad that McGrath of Harlow in my cab other day with `is Arsenal F.C. supporters badge on `is `at. `e `ad this great bundle of old newspapers under `is arm.
I said, "What`s up then MG? Wallpaper getting too dear?"
`e said, "Nah Jim. I`m just researching `ow far back the press used different terms for the nations of this world. I`m advising `em all on that Mudcat".
I said, "Oh yeah. I `ve been keeping an eye on that. But I am dis-appointed they`ve left some out."
`e said, " I don`t think so Jim. I reckon we`ve covered `em all"
I said, "You`re `aving a laugh. What about, "bubbles, "sceptics"
and the poor old redskin!!"

Whaddam I Like??

Subject: RE: BS: Racial Slurs in Quotations
From: GUEST,Grishka
Date: 09 Dec 10 - 06:21 AM

Lox, from your writing

"Whitey" can make us feel a little uncomfortable

I concluded that you might be including yourself. It seems that I am mistaken, sorry, but the rest of my arguments does not depend on any assumptions about your person. See here about the word "whitey". We saw before that words can be more or less offensive depending on the context.

Note that I agree with your main point, and wrote so (08 Dec 10 - 07:56 AM).

Subject: RE: BS: Racial Slurs in Quotations
From: Lox
Date: 09 Dec 10 - 05:25 AM

Something else to bear in mind,

Hitler died and the nazis were removed from power.

Pol Pot lost power.

Stalin died and the communists have gone.


White people are still the dominant demographic globally. We still have most of the money and most of the power and black people are stiill struggling to be accepted at our table.


In Rwanda, the word "Cockroach" was used by Hutu's to describe Tutsis, and "cockroaches" had to be exterminated.

Only the most cruel person would go to Rwanda and make comments about "cockroaches".

If a Hutu person made comments about Cockroaches, there would be no telling a tutsi to whom it was directed that he shouldn't let it bother him, or he had a chip on his shoulder, or "This is PC gone mad".

You have to digest the enormity of what the word "nigger" represents.

It stands for Hundreds of years of displacing, abusing and murdering millions of human beings in the most repugnant and horrific ways.

It is not a word to be used gratuitously.

Whitey is nothing but an empty quip.

Subject: RE: BS: Racial Slurs in Quotations
From: Lox
Date: 09 Dec 10 - 05:02 AM

I would clarify that I have deliberately not stated to you what my genetic background is, though I reckon everyone else here knows.

I have also deliberately not explained my intent when using the word "whitey".

So as yet, it remains unknown to you whether I was (as you say) attacking a group or distinguishing "myself and my followers who have done penance enough".

As it stands, the idea that I am attacking anyone, or making a distinction as you have described, is an inference on your part, not an implication on my part.

In other words, when you attribute either of those views to me and then knock them down, you are engaging in an argument that exists only in your head, not one that exists on this website.

There is no evidence in my post of me either taking a stance in which I attack white people, or in which I exempt myself somehow from what you describe as collective guilt.

My post very specifically and clearly discusses the history, meaning and use of a word which some people know to be "bad" without knowing why.

1. "Whitey" is not an offensive word.

What is "offensive" in this context?

Does it mean "It hurts my feelings"?

If so then any word could be deemed offensive as what peoples feelings are hurt by is subjective to them.

So what makes "Nigger" offensive?

Well, "offense" by nature is another word for "attack". An offensive word attacks, denigrates, damages, degrades etc etc.

"Nigger" is not offensive in the way that "whitey" is offensive, but in the way that "lebensraum" or "final solution" are offensive.

Those words describe specific events in history and also describe a specific mindset that goes with those events.

There is no affectionate way of saying "final solution", nor is there an affectionate way of saying "nigger", except in the most ironic and satirical of contexts.

In addition, while there are numerous examples of crimes committed against races, whether by the Nazis, by European slave traders, or by Missionaries in South America, or by Pol Pot or Stalin, non of these events is summed up by a single word in the way that the continuing struggle of black people is summed up, pretty much in its entirety, from the days of the slave trade to 2010, by the word "nigger".

There is no more all encompassing word to sum up racial crime than this word.

Now -

My posts are not about Moral value judgements, or about righteous one-upmanship, but about investigating and understanding the significance of words.


If you are interested in investigating and developing in this way too then please engage.

Getting all huffy about my use of an innocuous whiff like the word "whitey" will not win you any prizes and it certainly won't make you any wiser.


You may attribute whatever ideas you choose to me and knock them down to your hearts content, but it will reflect only the goings on of your imagination.

To be clear about my point and the usage and meaning of my words, you need to read and understand my argument.

Any additional, non contextual, interpretations by you of selective decimal fractions of my posts which are unrelated to the clear meaning and intent are not my problem.

Subject: RE: BS: Racial Slurs in Quotations
From: GUEST,Grishka
Date: 09 Dec 10 - 04:23 AM

Lox, you are probably writing with good intent, but this time you are totally mistaken. There is no excuse whatsoever for attacking any genetic group collectively; if you are a member of that group yourself, your attacks will always be understood as "except myself and my followers who have done penance enough". To fight racism with racism is both immoral and ineffective.

Of cause, there are many persons who owe their wealth and social position to their ancestors' crimes, and there are subtle mechanisms to perpetuate the benefits and to prevent other persons from claiming their share. To break up these structures is a difficult task, certainly not be achieved by insults based on genetic characteristics.

Subject: RE: BS: Racial Slurs in Quotations
From: Lox
Date: 08 Dec 10 - 01:45 PM

Grishka,

The word "whitey" does not have the same history as the word "nigger" nor did it ever have the same purpose or the same association with violence and degradation, and consequently it does not have the same power to humiliate or to condemn.

"Whitey" can make us feel a little uncomfortable - but the reason for this is because, just as "nigger" reminds some people that they "come from slaves", "whitey" reminds other people that they "come from slave traders, owners, stealers" etc.

It isn't just about generalization or labelling or pigeonholing, it is about the dehumanizing, degrading, humiliation and permanent inescapable stigmatization and collective psychological trauma of a whole race.

The word "nigger" is not just a stereotype, or a label, or a category, or an insult.

It wholly encapsulates and represents every crime ever committed against Africans and their descendants over a period of hundreds of years by Europeans in the name of progress and civilization, crimes which in a different form are still being committed today.

Thankfully times have moved on to some extent, but ones perceived status as a human being is affected by words, and despite Obamas presidency (which remember around half of America is bitterly opposed to because allegedly he's a Nazi and a communist, not to mention a foreigner etc etc) it remains the case in many peoples minds, that black people occupy a different strata of humanity.

Subject: RE: BS: Racial Slurs in Quotations
From: GUEST,Grishka
Date: 08 Dec 10 - 07:56 AM

Lox, your main argument is quite conclusive. I don't think anyone would seriously object.

But you wrote

Of course when whitey has a bad day...

which is using an offensive word in an offensive context, generalizing on purpose about a "race". And you seem serious about it (please correct me if I misunderstood).

The most controversial idea of "PC" is to accept insulting "those in power". Note that the history of anti-Judaism is full of such excuses.

Subject: RE: BS: Racial Slurs in Quotations
From: Lox
Date: 08 Dec 10 - 05:54 AM

It should also be clarified:


- Books by Mark Twain and Joseph Conrad, amongst others, do indeed contain the word Nigger, and they should never be changed for various reasons to do with the books historical and literary value and authenticity.

- however, to state that all people, including black people, were comfortable with use of this word is not a supportable assertion.

The authors referred to above were white, and for them the word nigger may have tripped off the tongue easily as that was the culture of the day - though to credit Twain and Conrad with so little subtlety or sense of irony would be unwise.

But more importantly, just because a black character in a book written by a white man were comfortable with the word nigger it does not follow that black people of the day were comfortable with hearing it, or with using it except in the most ironic sense.

If you were black, your name wasn't John, or Fred, or Bill, it was "nigger" or "boy".

And if you heard your "name" being called, it meant one of two things.

1. Hurry up, there's a job to do.
2. Prepare to be subjected to a horrendous assault and possibly murder.

"how many roads must a man walk down - before you can call him a man" ...

... or even by his name.


The idea that Black people were comfortable being called Nigger at any point in history is just plain idealistic fantasy.

Subject: RE: BS: Racial Slurs in Quotations
From: Lox
Date: 08 Dec 10 - 05:33 AM

Sorry to floccinaucinihilipilificate.

As you can see, I think gratuitous use of unnecessary words can be fun.

I draw a line however at gratuitous use of words that serve to inhibit people, who have been subjected to horrendous mass criminal abuse, from shedding the trauma of their history and moving on to a brighter future.

Gratuitous use of these words says to them "You may not forget, you will be reminded constantly of your old place in society, for no reason other than our stubborn refusal to be considerate."


      ... Why should I? ...


      ... Why shouldn't I? ...



It is interesting to note, that where offensive terms have been gratuitously added to this thread, there has been no development on the ideas being discussed in the thread.

They have been added solely because the poster just had to blurt them out.


For those interested in understanding use of the word "Niggaz" in Hip hop culture:

- many words have been written about "reclaiming" words and changing their connotations from positive to negative.

Listen to the music!

There is nothing positive about it.

The point of using the word "Nigga" in hip-hop is this.

It says to optimistic black people "Don't be Naive - you will never sit at the white mans table - you will always be a Nigga in his eyes".

Listen to the music.

Watch the video.

Look at the contemptuous snarl on the rappers face as he speaks to his peers, caricaturing how he believes white people view black people.

Hip hop culture says "OK - I accept that you define me as scum - and if its scum you want then its scum you'll get".

It says "I don't want to sit at your table anyway, I'm gonna sit at my own table - in fact - being scum, I'm going to steal your table - I might even just shoot you and have your house too".

Of course when whitey has a bad day at work and is feeling disaffected by the system or his workplace, nothing makes him feel better than to turn on some hip-hop and let off a little steam on the subject of how he doesn't give a f***.

So mainstream hip-hop is born, comprising black artists, playing horrendous caricatures of how they believe black people are viewed through white peoples eyes, and white people love it because it lets them let off a little steam now and again.

The consequences are mixed. Young black people get to feel less marginalized culturally, but stereotypes of Black people end up muddying how they are perceived, and eventually confuse their own perceptions of themselves.

But one thing remains constant throughout.

The term "Nigger" is a term of abuse with no positive connotations, whether used cynically by Black musicians, whether used in hatred by racist monsters, or whether used gratuitously by bloody minded old fools.

Subject: RE: BS: Racial Slurs in Quotations
From: GUEST,Shimrod
Date: 08 Dec 10 - 04:36 AM

I think that she was offended by the title of the film, MtheGM, and the fact that, in mentioning the film, I had uttered a word that she found offensive. A silly incident, really. But then she was a bit of a silly woman - good job I resisted the temptation to tell her that!

Subject: RE: BS: Racial Slurs in Quotations
From: Backwoodsman
Date: 08 Dec 10 - 03:22 AM

Precisely, Michael, precisely.

Subject: RE: BS: Racial Slurs in Quotations
From: frogprince
Date: 07 Dec 10 - 06:36 PM

Is stonehenge constructed of pom granite?

Subject: RE: BS: Racial Slurs in Quotations
From: MGM·Lion
Date: 07 Dec 10 - 04:51 PM

But even then, Bwm, I can't see how anyone could even affect offence just for being told that someone had seen a commercially produced movie which happens to be called 'Yanks". What's to be offended about, even 'serial'-wise?

~M~

Subject: RE: BS: Racial Slurs in Quotations
From: Backwoodsman
Date: 07 Dec 10 - 03:25 PM

She was probably a Serial Offendee, Michael. Some people are only happy when they're 'offended', or can envisage some dopey 'offence' that may be caused to others by something perfectly innocent and harmless.

Subject: RE: BS: Racial Slurs in Quotations
From: olddude
Date: 07 Dec 10 - 03:24 PM

Yanks and Cowboys and even Hill Billies are terms of endearment in my part of the country ... Heck we name our professional sports teams after them, we name our High School mascot as "Hilly billies" No offense that I know of

Subject: RE: BS: Racial Slurs in Quotations
From: MGM·Lion
Date: 07 Dec 10 - 01:51 PM

Interesting ½-story, Shimrod. But not entirely clarified. What biz of hers what film you went to see? What exactly was she 'offended' about ~~ the fact that you had seen it; or its title; or the very fact of there being a film so titled; or your mentioning of it; or just the simple articulation of the word which formed its title:

or what?

I think we should be told.

~Michael~

Subject: RE: BS: Racial Slurs in Quotations
From: GUEST,Shimrod
Date: 07 Dec 10 - 01:21 PM

"We 'Brits' referred to the Americans as Yanks during the war but it was not an offensive offering ..."

Hmmm ... not so sure about that. Back in the 80s (I think it was) I saw a film about American servicemen in North West England during World War II. The next morning I had a meeting with an American woman and before the meeting started we made small talk and I mentioned that I had been to the cinema to see a film called, 'Yanks'. As soon as I said it I saw that I had made a mistake and that she was somewhat offended. I could have lied about the film, I suppose, but then it might have been a film that she knew well and she could have quizzed me about it in detail and ... well, even more embarrassment!

Subject: RE: BS: Racial Slurs in Quotations
From: Dave MacKenzie
Date: 07 Dec 10 - 03:21 AM

England, Wales, and I remember they once had a captain from Scotland, so they're not just English, British too.

Subject: RE: BS: Racial Slurs in Quotations
From: GUEST,Allan Con
Date: 07 Dec 10 - 02:22 AM

I know they have Brit because of the sponsor and being a Scot I'm not too up on cricket but I think it is also one of those typical British anomolies. Although the team is called England it isn't in reality just England. Doesn't the team represent both England and Wales?

Subject: RE: BS: Racial Slurs in Quotations
From: The Fooles Troupe
Date: 06 Dec 10 - 08:03 PM

The word Brit is proudly displayed on the chest of the English cricket Team playing The Ashes in Australia - Brit Insurance is a sponsor.

So one can definitely say that the word Brit is close to the heart of the English.


I'll get me hat ...

Subject: RE: BS: Racial Slurs in Quotations
From: Bev and Jerry
Date: 06 Dec 10 - 08:00 PM

Susan:

Yeah, we found it. It's perfect for us because we can place it in the "word from the editor" page at the front of the publication. That way it will cover whatever anyone finds offensive.

Thanks again.

Bev and Jerry

Subject: RE: BS: Racial Slurs in Quotations
From: akenaton
Date: 06 Dec 10 - 04:05 PM

Very good for a "Sassenach" Mr McGrath, but these gentlemen would never use "into"....whin they hid "intae" handy!

Subject: RE: BS: Racial Slurs in Quotations
From: wysiwyg
Date: 06 Dec 10 - 03:31 PM

Had a moment today to find the disclaimer I used in the Spirituals permathread, which I believe I adapted from an academic site:

LANGUAGE USAGE
This project includes historical materials that may contain presently-offensive language or negative stereotypes reflecting the culture or language of a particular period or place. These items are presented as part of the historical record.

I set it off in a different typeface/color to ensure its visibility.

~Susan

Subject: RE: BS: Racial Slurs in Quotations
From: Big Phil
Date: 06 Dec 10 - 03:30 PM

'Twas in the year of 'thirty-nine when the sky was full of lead
When Hitler was heading for Poland, and Paddy for Holyhead
Come all you pincher laddies and you long-distance men
Don't ever work for McAlpine, for Wimpey, or John Laing
You'll stand behind a mixer until your skin is turned to tan
And they'll say, Good on you, Paddy, with your boat fare in your hand
Oh, the craic was good in Cricklewood and they wouldn't leave the Crown
With glasses flying and Biddys crying 'cause Paddy was going to town



MMMMMMMmmm I see Paddy is used here several times, where are the P.C. Police when you need them.

Subject: RE: BS: Racial Slurs in Quotations
From: MGM·Lion
Date: 06 Dec 10 - 12:31 PM

===an insult or a term of pride according to who uses it.===
-----
Indeed ~ and there are many such, esp ones with any political or ideological overtone.

An interesting fairly recent [ca last 20 years] such development has been the defiant adoption by some of the black community of "nigger" as a term of pride: think of that hip-hop group of late 80s-90s, Niggaz With Attitude.

~Michael~

Subject: RE: BS: Racial Slurs in Quotations
From: McGrath of Harlow
Date: 06 Dec 10 - 12:16 PM

"Fenians" is an interesting one, as being a term that is an insult or a term of pride according to who uses it.

"Get tore into yer separated brethren"...

Subject: RE: BS: Racial Slurs in Quotations
From: maple_leaf_boy
Date: 06 Dec 10 - 11:19 AM

Subject: RE: BS: Racial Slurs in Quotations
From: akenaton - PM
Date: 05 Dec 10 - 06:06 PM

There' a lot of Celtic abuse in Glasgow.....Go there any Saturday afternoon and you'll see thousands of blue uniformed Glaswegians shouting
      "Fuck the Celts!!"

I know all about that. Rangers supporters call the Celtic "Fenians",
which is more likely used as a term to describe Catholics rather than
Irish heritage. And Celtic fans call the Rangers "Huns".

The league has cracked down on this in the past few years, banning
sectarian songs and comments from fans. Now, I think that religious
and political behavior shown by fans of any team can cause their
team points in the standings, and they can be banned from the games.

Just before Remembrance days, there were fans waving anti-poppy
banners, and the Celtic officials were on the search to find out
who they were so they can be banned from the games.

Subject: RE: BS: Racial Slurs in Quotations
From: Little Hawk
Date: 06 Dec 10 - 10:32 AM

Folkies??? Can't stand 'em! Those stupid banjo-pounders and their tofu-burgers! Those dumb bodhran-banging Birkenstockers! ;-)

Subject: RE: BS: Racial Slurs in Quotations
From: Georgiansilver
Date: 06 Dec 10 - 06:54 AM

I guess we ought to stop referring to 'Mudcat Members' as 'Catters' as it could sound derogatory!... Oh and Folk Singers are no longer to be referred to as 'Folkies'........