BS: Hate the Filibuster??? You can...

Subject: BS: Hate the Filibuster??? You can...
From: Bobert
Date: 29 Dec 10 - 07:27 PM

...write your Senator 'cause...

...based on more of the Senate's stupid rules there is one day when the Senate can change a rule with 51 votes... That day is the 1st day the new Senate is seated and this year that will be Jan. 5th and...

...alot of Senators are going to try to vote out the filibuster as we have come to know it... This is not a bill, BTW, so you won't find it as legislation, however...

...it will get an up-and-down vote on Jan 5th so if you hate the filibuster than write your Senator before Jan 5th and tell him or her to vote to change the rule!!!

I know I am...

B~

BTW, after Jan 5th it will take 67 Senators to change the rule...

Subject: RE: BS: Hate the Filibuster??? You can...
From: Genie
Date: 29 Dec 10 - 09:08 PM

Are you sure about that last part, Bobert? When was that rule enacted? Or do you mean that the Senate rules can be changed at any time with a 2/3 vote?

As for the filibuster, I'm not in favor of totally abolishing it, but I think major changes need to be made to prevent the kind of abuse of it that we saw during this past Congressional session.

1. If a filibuster motion is introduced, all 40 Senators who support it (i.e., who will vote against cloture) should have to go on record as such.   It should not be incumbent on the majority to prove that they have 60 votes for cloture.

The politicians and the media should also start talking about filibusters AS filibusters -- i.e., as the minority preventing an up-or-down vote on a bill or nomination -- instead of making it sound like a bill has "failed" or "not passed" when it was never allowed a vote.

Even under current rules, it does NOT "take 60 votes to pass anything in the Senate." It takes 60 votes to ALLOW a vote.

2. The filibuster should not be permitted to PREVENT debate on a bill or issue.   Its purpose was to EXTEND debate -- presumably so issues could be examined more thoroughly and/or to give each side more opportunity to increase support for their position.

3. Either require the filibusterer(s) to actually take the floor in the Senate and keep talking, or at least require the would-be filibusterers to be PRESENT when the cloture motion is called.      Perhaps if a quorum is present in the Senate, the cloture motion should require only 60% of those who are present.   But the minority should not be able to block a vote on a bill without attaching their names to the filibuster and being present for the "debate" that the filibuster was designed to extend.

4, Prevent the use of the filibuster for cabinet positions and other limited-term political appointments.

5. Confirmation votes on Federal Justices, who are given lifetime appointments, I think should be prevented only by an actual continued-debate filibuster.   These appointments are too important, IMO, to require only a vote of 50% +1, but neither should they be blocked by the minority without there being good reasons, and such reasons need to be expressed openly and thoroughly.

Subject: RE: BS: Hate the Filibuster??? You can...
From: Bobert
Date: 29 Dec 10 - 09:23 PM

Yes, Genie...

I am sure about this... The 1st day is the only day when 51 votes is all that is needed to make a change in the Senate's rules...

There are a number of Senators, Tom Harkin (Iowa), Jeff Merkey (Ore.), Tom Udall (N.M.), Claire McCaskill (Mo.) and Michael Bennet (Colo.) who will be spear-heading this move...

BTW, lot more in a piece in today's Washington Post by Katrina Vanden Heuvel, entitled "The filibuster must stop here"... Check it out...

B~

Subject: RE: BS: Hate the Filibuster??? You can...
From: Bobert
Date: 30 Dec 10 - 01:34 PM

Refresh...

Get them letters out if you want to see and end to the filibuster, por favor...

B~

Subject: RE: BS: Hate the Filibuster??? You can...
From: Genie
Date: 30 Dec 10 - 06:28 PM

OK, I figured that's what you meant.   In theory, the Senate can always amend its rules, but the 2/3 majority it takes to do so after the opening day of the new Congress makes highly improbable that it can/will be done.


I forgot one other amendment I would add to the filibuster reform.
Not sure exactly how this would be worded, because if a Senator truly wants the debate on an issue to be extended (as opposed to just saying "I'm filibustering" or standing there and reading from the phone book), it's reasonable that such a Senator might vote against cloture but, if outvoted, go ahead and vote FOR the bill when the vote is called.

What needs to be prevented is the obstructionism-qua-obstructionism tactic of joining a passive, debate-free "filibuster" to prevent a vote on a nominee or bill that you actually support (or at least want your constituents to think you support). It has happened all too often over the past 2 years that a bill or nomination is "filibustered," but when the Democrats finally garnered 60 votes to bring the issue up for a vote, the bill passes or the nomination is confirmed by an overwhelming majority, including many who had tried to prevent the vote.


So I would propose that:
If the "filibuster" does not actually involve extending debate on an issue, and the filibuster continues for more than a week or two (the time it might take to do some research on the issue), no Senator who formally opposed the cloture motion should be allowed to vote "Yea" on the bill.

In other words, you can't just try to obstruct the agenda of the President or the majority party in Congress because you want the public to see them as incompetent failures, but then try to jump on the bandwagon of the successes they do have and try to take credit for supporting what you tried your best to derail.

Subject: RE: BS: Hate the Filibuster??? You can...
From: Bobert
Date: 30 Dec 10 - 07:41 PM

One of the main things that is being put forward is ending the "secret holds" where any one Senator can stop everything... Remember Jim Bunning??? That was messed up...

Also the threats of filibuster doing the same... Maker 'um do the old fashioned way if they want...

B~

Subject: RE: BS: Hate the Filibuster??? You can...
From: Genie
Date: 02 Jan 11 - 03:35 AM

Yes, that's very important, Bobert.   Transparency in the legislative process is crucial, for the sake of accountability.

BTW, Jeff Merkley (D - OR) says that Jan. 5, the opening day of the new Congressional session, is the date on which the Senate has either to "declare" that they are "a continuing body" (meaning all the rules stay intact from the previous session) or PROPOSE changes. If modifications of Senate rules are proposed, the deliberations on such can continue indefinitely, until the Senate either rejects them all or votes to adopt new rules.

This means that feedback from us to our Senators may not have to be received before Jan. 5, although the sooner we get suggestions and opinions to them, the better.

Subject: RE: BS: Hate the Filibuster??? You can...
From: Bobert
Date: 02 Jan 11 - 08:01 AM

The most important thing, Genie, is, and this is worth repeating, it is the *****only***** day where it take 51 votes to change the Senate rules... After that it's 67 votes...

So, folks, send an email to your Senators TODAY!!! It won't take you 5 minutes...

B~

Subject: RE: BS: Hate the Filibuster??? You can ...
From: Genie
Date: 03 Jan 11 - 02:22 AM

That's not what Jeff Merkley said, Bobert. According to the interview I heard with him, if the Senate does not declare itself "a continuing body" on Jan. 5 and motions are introduced to amend the Senate rules, those motions can be debated for some time - no real time limit - before being voted on, and the vote on them requires only 50% "Yea" votes (plus the VP), even if the actual vote doesn't happen for a while.
In other words, proposed rule changes must be made on the opening day of the new session, but the vote does not have to happen that day, if Senators are still debating the proposals.
Once the rules for the new session have been established - either to amend the old rules or continue with them unchanged - then it takes a 2/3 vote to change them.

Subject: RE: BS: Hate the Filibuster??? You can...
From: Richard Bridge
Date: 03 Jan 11 - 04:53 AM

And is anyone running a book on the outcome?

Subject: RE: BS: Hate the Filibuster??? You can...
From: Bobert
Date: 03 Jan 11 - 08:35 AM

Thanks for posting the actual details, Genie...

Doesn't let anyone off the hook, however... Your Senators need to get on board on opening day of the rule changes can happen without 67 votes later...

B~

Subject: RE: BS: Hate the Filibuster??? You can...
From: Genie
Date: 03 Jan 11 - 12:53 PM

Yes, it's important to contact our Senators - even the Republican and, especially, the blue-dog Democratic ones - today or tomorrow (or even on the 5th) to urge them to amend the Senate rules to prevent:
a. passive, anonymous filibusters being used as S O P (meaning no bill can even be voted on unless proponents can prove they have 60 votes for it)

and

b. bills being held up in committee by a single Senator or by unnamed Senators.


But if amendments to current Senate rules are proposed and not voted up or down on Jan. 5, we should continue to pressure our Senators for rational change, as long as the issues are still being debated.

Subject: Filibuster rule change vote postponed
From: Genie
Date: 05 Jan 11 - 02:41 PM

Turns out, what the Senate has decided to do is to have a swearing in of Senators and then take a "recess" for a couple of weeks.   This buys time for the new Senate body - -absent some from the last Congress and including some new members -- to do a lot of hashing out of the procedural issues, and maybe some horse-trading before they have to vote on whether this new Senate is "a continuing body" (with the old rules intact) or it will be a "new" body with amended rules.

This means we have a couple more weeks to contact our Senators (and those from other states) and urge them to amend the rules to prevent rampant, indiscriminate obstructionism.

Subject: RE: BS: Hate the Filibuster??? You can...
From: Alaska Mike
Date: 05 Jan 11 - 04:21 PM

Be sure your personal lobbyist knocks on their office door with a big check, also. That's all these folks really pay attention to.

Mike

Subject: RE: BS: Hate the Filibuster??? You can...
From: Bill D
Date: 05 Jan 11 - 04:33 PM

No, SOME of them pay attention the the $$$$...if you listened to Sen. Tom Harkin, it was evident he had sanity & fairness in mind.

Subject: RE: BS: Hate the Filibuster??? You can...
From: Bill D
Date: 05 Jan 11 - 04:45 PM

??? "...what the Senate has decided to do is to have a swearing in of Senators and then take a "recess" for a couple of weeks"

Have I missed something, Genie? They are still debating the point as I type. Sen. Wyden is holding forth at great lungth.

Subject: RE: BS: Hate the Filibuster??? You can...
From: Bill D
Date: 05 Jan 11 - 04:54 PM

And Sen. McCaskill is really laying it out..

Subject: RE: BS: Hate the Filibuster??? You can...
From: Genie
Date: 05 Jan 11 - 06:00 PM

Actually, Mike, believe it or not, our politicians do pay attention to input from constituents -- OK, more from the rich ones than from the rest of us, but attention nonetheless.   But a phone call counts as much as at least 10 emails, and snail mail counts at least 10 times more than that.   (Those are low estimates. The figures I've read and heard may be greater than that by a factor of 10, but I forget the specifics.   Just remember that a phone call counts FAR more than an email and a letter or post card counts FAR, FAR more.)

But if you want to get a message to them quickly, send a POSTCARD.    Ever since the anthrax attacks back in 2001, envelopes get sort of 'quarantined' until they can be checked out for possible contaminants such as anthrax.

Subject: Senate rule vote postponed for 3 weeks
From: Genie
Date: 05 Jan 11 - 06:02 PM

They may be debating it already, but they plan to take a 3-week recess before voting on continuing or changing the Senate rules.   That's been announced several times in the news yesterday and today.

Subject: RE: BS: Hate the Filibuster??? You can...
From: Bill D
Date: 05 Jan 11 - 06:49 PM

hmmm...Ok... all I see on the news is coverage of Bohener(admitting I don't watch continuously, or early in the AM)

Subject: RE: BS: Hate the Filibuster??? You can...
From: DougR
Date: 05 Jan 11 - 07:32 PM

Genie: I'm curious. Are you satisfied with the transparancey of the Obama administration?

DougR

Subject: RE: BS: Hate the Filibuster??? You can...
From: Bobert
Date: 05 Jan 11 - 07:39 PM

Yo, Doug,

Hate to tell ya but this has nuthin' to do with Obama... It has to do do with the Senate... Check out the Constitution tomorrow on C-SPAN while yer buddies are reading it... Then maybe you'll get Govt 101... But then again, maybe not...

BTW, NASCAR ain't one of the 3 branches of government...

Others,

I called my Senators offices and let my feelings be known...

B~

Subject: RE: BS: Hate the Filibuster??? You can...
From: Genie
Date: 05 Jan 11 - 08:31 PM

No, Doug, I'm not at all satisfied with the transparency (lack thereof) of the Obama administration. In particular, I'm angry at the behind-the-scenes "negotiations" with corporate lobbyists and with the Republican leaders that Obama's done more than once before letting the public or even the Congressional Democrats (especially the progressive caucus) know what sort of deal he's made.

This does not make me want to stay home on election day or, worse, vote for Republicans.
The GWB and Reagan administrations were even worse where the transparency is concerned.

Subject: RE: BS: Hate the Filibuster??? You can...
From: GUEST,Songbob
Date: 06 Jan 11 - 04:36 PM

"And is anyone running a book on the outcome?"

In America? Are you serious? Somebody's even making book on whether someone is making book. Some folks even take seriously a project that lets people "vote" on the favorability, unfavorability, chances of success, etc., of politicians by buying chances, so to speak. In other words, putting their money where their mouths are.

It's like you bet $5 that John Boehner will start crying before noon on any given day, and if he does, you win. But the pollsters look at the betting patterns and interpret them as electoral chances / favorability rating / whatever else pollsters measure.

I can't recall what they call this electoral betting parlor (I propose calling it "The Real Off-Track Betting Parlor" -- with emphasis on the "off-track") but pollsters think it works somehow.

Bob

Subject: RE: BS: Hate the Filibuster??? You can...
From: Richard Bridge
Date: 06 Jan 11 - 10:02 PM

Yes, I'm sure. But what I really meant, albeit I couched my view by way of a sarcastic question, was that it seemed in principle unlikely for politicians to vote for honest politics.

Subject: RE: BS: Hate the Filibuster??? You can...
From: Genie
Date: 07 Jan 11 - 01:06 AM

BTW, I just learned yesterday that the way the Democrats can postpone a vote on Senate rules for 2 or 3 weeks and still have that vote on "the first day of the new Senate" is that a "day" for the US Senate consists of the time between the opening and closing gavels of that "day."

So if the President of the Senate (the Vice President) calls the Senate into session, the Senate can take a "recess" of indeterminate length before the closing gavel is pounded.   In this case, they've decided not to end that recess and continue the "opening day" session until sometime after the MLK JR holiday.