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BS: Created in the image of God

Donuel 28 Jun 11 - 07:12 AM
Silas 28 Jun 11 - 07:16 AM
Jack the Sailor 28 Jun 11 - 07:34 AM
Jack the Sailor 28 Jun 11 - 08:12 AM
Bill D 28 Jun 11 - 11:08 AM
GUEST,Uncle Rumpo 28 Jun 11 - 11:55 AM
Little Hawk 28 Jun 11 - 11:59 AM
Georgiansilver 28 Jun 11 - 12:03 PM
Georgiansilver 28 Jun 11 - 12:05 PM
GUEST,donger 28 Jun 11 - 12:09 PM
Little Hawk 28 Jun 11 - 12:16 PM
Little Hawk 28 Jun 11 - 12:17 PM
gnu 28 Jun 11 - 02:07 PM
Mrrzy 28 Jun 11 - 05:06 PM
Jack the Sailor 28 Jun 11 - 05:29 PM
Little Hawk 28 Jun 11 - 05:59 PM
Bill D 28 Jun 11 - 10:13 PM
Jack the Sailor 28 Jun 11 - 10:50 PM
Little Hawk 29 Jun 11 - 01:44 AM
MGM·Lion 29 Jun 11 - 03:17 AM
GUEST,Steamin' Willie 29 Jun 11 - 05:49 AM
Little Hawk 29 Jun 11 - 11:42 AM
Jack the Sailor 29 Jun 11 - 11:43 AM
Jack the Sailor 29 Jun 11 - 11:47 AM
CarolC 29 Jun 11 - 11:49 AM
CarolC 29 Jun 11 - 11:53 AM
Jack the Sailor 29 Jun 11 - 11:54 AM
Jack the Sailor 29 Jun 11 - 11:59 AM
Little Hawk 29 Jun 11 - 12:07 PM
Jack the Sailor 29 Jun 11 - 12:16 PM
josepp 29 Jun 11 - 12:19 PM
Jack the Sailor 29 Jun 11 - 12:58 PM
Mrrzy 29 Jun 11 - 01:20 PM
Jack the Sailor 29 Jun 11 - 01:32 PM
GUEST,Steamin' Willie 29 Jun 11 - 01:36 PM
Joe Offer 29 Jun 11 - 02:12 PM
Little Hawk 29 Jun 11 - 02:47 PM
number 6 29 Jun 11 - 02:47 PM
Little Hawk 29 Jun 11 - 02:49 PM
Jack the Sailor 29 Jun 11 - 02:49 PM
Little Hawk 29 Jun 11 - 02:55 PM
number 6 29 Jun 11 - 02:56 PM
Little Hawk 29 Jun 11 - 03:00 PM
number 6 29 Jun 11 - 03:04 PM
Jack the Sailor 29 Jun 11 - 03:07 PM
Little Hawk 29 Jun 11 - 03:09 PM
Jack the Sailor 29 Jun 11 - 03:24 PM
Little Hawk 29 Jun 11 - 06:06 PM
josepp 29 Jun 11 - 06:16 PM
Little Hawk 29 Jun 11 - 06:30 PM
josepp 29 Jun 11 - 06:42 PM
Jack the Sailor 29 Jun 11 - 07:11 PM
Jack the Sailor 29 Jun 11 - 07:15 PM
Jack the Sailor 29 Jun 11 - 07:16 PM
josepp 29 Jun 11 - 07:25 PM
Jack the Sailor 29 Jun 11 - 07:44 PM
Little Hawk 29 Jun 11 - 08:31 PM
Jack the Sailor 29 Jun 11 - 09:06 PM
number 6 29 Jun 11 - 10:09 PM
josepp 29 Jun 11 - 10:16 PM
Jack the Sailor 29 Jun 11 - 11:26 PM
GUEST,F.N Pranny 29 Jun 11 - 11:33 PM
Jack the Sailor 30 Jun 11 - 12:33 AM
Jack the Sailor 30 Jun 11 - 12:37 AM
Jack the Sailor 30 Jun 11 - 12:45 AM
GUEST,Steamin' WIllie 30 Jun 11 - 03:58 AM
Joe Offer 30 Jun 11 - 04:08 AM
Little Hawk 30 Jun 11 - 10:07 AM
Donuel 30 Jun 11 - 11:10 AM
Little Hawk 30 Jun 11 - 01:17 PM
Stringsinger 30 Jun 11 - 07:15 PM
Little Hawk 01 Jul 11 - 11:47 AM
Mrrzy 01 Jul 11 - 09:33 PM
Little Hawk 01 Jul 11 - 09:53 PM
Mrrzy 02 Jul 11 - 04:58 PM
Little Hawk 02 Jul 11 - 05:36 PM
gnu 02 Jul 11 - 05:39 PM
Stringsinger 02 Jul 11 - 07:01 PM
Little Hawk 02 Jul 11 - 07:48 PM
Jack the Sailor 02 Jul 11 - 09:05 PM
Little Hawk 02 Jul 11 - 10:32 PM
GUEST,Big Ballad Singer 03 Jul 11 - 12:34 PM
Little Hawk 03 Jul 11 - 02:44 PM
GUEST,999 I just found religion. 03 Jul 11 - 02:47 PM
Little Hawk 03 Jul 11 - 04:55 PM
Donuel 03 Jul 11 - 07:58 PM
Jack the Sailor 03 Jul 11 - 08:57 PM
Donuel 03 Jul 11 - 09:48 PM
Little Hawk 03 Jul 11 - 10:10 PM
Jack the Sailor 04 Jul 11 - 02:11 AM
GUEST,Guest from Sanity 04 Jul 11 - 07:20 AM
GUEST,Robby the Cod fish 04 Jul 11 - 12:09 PM
Donuel 04 Jul 11 - 12:16 PM
Jack the Sailor 04 Jul 11 - 12:23 PM
Jack the Sailor 04 Jul 11 - 12:24 PM
Bill D 04 Jul 11 - 12:56 PM
Little Hawk 04 Jul 11 - 01:10 PM
Mrrzy 04 Jul 11 - 01:17 PM
Bill D 04 Jul 11 - 01:34 PM
Jack the Sailor 04 Jul 11 - 02:12 PM
GUEST,Robby the Cod fish 04 Jul 11 - 02:39 PM
GUEST,Simon the Seagull 04 Jul 11 - 02:43 PM
Little Hawk 04 Jul 11 - 02:55 PM
GUEST,Satan the Seagull 04 Jul 11 - 02:55 PM
Jack the Sailor 04 Jul 11 - 03:00 PM
GUEST,Arthur the Agnostic Sea Eagle 04 Jul 11 - 03:02 PM
Bill D 04 Jul 11 - 03:23 PM
Jack the Sailor 04 Jul 11 - 03:44 PM
GUEST,999 04 Jul 11 - 03:51 PM
Jack the Sailor 04 Jul 11 - 03:53 PM
GUEST,999 04 Jul 11 - 04:06 PM
Jack the Sailor 04 Jul 11 - 04:21 PM
GUEST,999 04 Jul 11 - 04:23 PM
GUEST,999 from BBC News (online) 04 Jul 11 - 04:28 PM
Jack the Sailor 04 Jul 11 - 04:35 PM
GUEST,999 04 Jul 11 - 04:43 PM
Jack the Sailor 04 Jul 11 - 04:49 PM
Little Hawk 04 Jul 11 - 05:34 PM
Bill D 04 Jul 11 - 08:14 PM
GUEST,Perry the Porpoise 04 Jul 11 - 08:42 PM
Bill D 04 Jul 11 - 10:21 PM

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Subject: BS: Created in the image of God
From: Donuel
Date: 28 Jun 11 - 07:12 AM

Physicists warn that the quantum aspects of our universe makes common sense comparisons of the multiverse to human experiences a fools game.

However if we view GOD as the universe and Man as being created in the image of God, how many similarites does Woman/Man have in common with the Universe at large?

Expansion of the Universe/Man: from the nearly invisible fertilized egg resulting from the big bang, man grows and expands rapidly. By middle age this expansion can accelerate and grow huge.

String theorists suggest that we have 10 dimensions. Hold up both your hands! Molecules can express themselves as either right handed or left handed mirror images of the same ingredients. Life prefers only one of these moleculer expressions, guess which handedness life uses.



As part of the universe made of actual stardust produced in nova and hyper nova stars, dust to dust, we mirror the universe in more ways than our imagination may allow. We obey the same fractal laws, weak strong and gravity forces and perhaps the same laws of consciousness.

If you look at the newest pictures of our universe and interpret the blue cooler areas as protuberences which may or may not be atracted toward other subspace universes, the universe has an organic shape.

SETI has not proven other life communicating with Earth but theya re using analog radio signals when the other races in space are digitally texting.

IF our universe can spawn another baby universe, the new born moves into its own space and eventually when it gorws ulder, never calls and only interacts weakly through gravity when it needs money.

I need some more compariosns... ? !


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Subject: RE: BS: Created in the image of God
From: Silas
Date: 28 Jun 11 - 07:16 AM

You don't need comparisons, you need help.


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Subject: RE: BS: Created in the image of God
From: Jack the Sailor
Date: 28 Jun 11 - 07:34 AM

I think it must be more like this.


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Subject: RE: BS: Created in the image of God
From: Jack the Sailor
Date: 28 Jun 11 - 08:12 AM

here is the answer!


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Subject: RE: BS: Created in the image of God
From: Bill D
Date: 28 Jun 11 - 11:08 AM

Interesting Carol...Jack... that ppsimmions person has uploaded all the 'answers' anyone might need-- as long as they accept his basic premises to begin with. ANYTHING science discovers can quickly be interpreted biblically with a little tweaking of the images and language.


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Subject: RE: BS: Created in the image of God
From: GUEST,Uncle Rumpo
Date: 28 Jun 11 - 11:55 AM

"Created in the image of God" ?????

well judging by what I just saw in the bathroom mirror

God needs to do a bit more exercise and go on a diet...


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Subject: RE: BS: Created in the image of God
From: Little Hawk
Date: 28 Jun 11 - 11:59 AM

While certain ancient writings in certain holy books assert that Man is made in the image of God....they fail to add the additional proviso that everything else is too! ;-) I suspect that this is because the writers, being human, were far more conscious of the human race than they were of the rest of creation. If they'd been rabbits, they'd have said that Rabbit is made in the image of God, and would have likewise neglected to mention the rest.


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Subject: RE: BS: Created in the image of God
From: Georgiansilver
Date: 28 Jun 11 - 12:03 PM

Guest uncle rumpo.. you can't blame God for what you did to yourself!!


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Subject: RE: BS: Created in the image of God
From: Georgiansilver
Date: 28 Jun 11 - 12:05 PM

LH The Bible tells me that God made man in His own image but I cannot remember reading anywhere that He made everything else in His image too...... Was that divine inspiration through your good self or some knowledge you have gleaned in this amazing world?


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Subject: RE: BS: Created in the image of God
From: GUEST,donger
Date: 28 Jun 11 - 12:09 PM

God is the Great Consciousness that broke itself apart by dreaming the universe and playing the part of everything in it. So we are in the image of god and, as Little Hawk points out, so is everything else because we are all bit players in god's dream with god playing every role and prop.


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Subject: RE: BS: Created in the image of God
From: Little Hawk
Date: 28 Jun 11 - 12:16 PM

Well, Gs, I don't take anyone else's word for stuff like that...I reason it out for myself. The Bible is someone else's word on the matter, namely, whoever it was that wrote that particular passage. I know perfectly well that some human being wrote down that original passage, and he was expressing his own thoughts on the matter. Now...200 generations of Christians can say that he was "inspired by God" when he wrote it down, but all they are doing is repeating something they heard someone else say...in other words, they're taking someone else's word for it. ;-) I don't do that.

My best guess is that the old fella (some ancient Hebrew) was quite sincere, and he wrote down what he thought was right...and he may even have thought that God (Jehovah) was inspiring him directly to do so...and he may even have been right about that! But who am I to say? He may also not have been right.

So I reason it out myself. I don't define God the way he would have anyway, I don't see God as "Jehovah", and I don't see God as a heavenly Hebrew patriarchal figure of some sort. I see God as an inner presence in everything.

So I figure that if there is a factor in the Universe which we can term "God" that it reveals itself not just through a single lifeform, humanity, but through all lifeforms...and through all other phenomena as well, meaning it's omnipresent.

That's my theory. It's not my doctrine, it's my theory. I require no one else to obey it, believe it or to join some order which asserts it. I merely state it because it's my theory.


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Subject: RE: BS: Created in the image of God
From: Little Hawk
Date: 28 Jun 11 - 12:17 PM

And yes, donger, I tend to agree with what you said.


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Subject: RE: BS: Created in the image of God
From: gnu
Date: 28 Jun 11 - 02:07 PM

That reminds me.

See 2:16 into the clip.


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Subject: RE: BS: Created in the image of God
From: Mrrzy
Date: 28 Jun 11 - 05:06 PM

staying far, far away...


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Subject: RE: BS: Created in the image of God
From: Jack the Sailor
Date: 28 Jun 11 - 05:29 PM

Bill's wife Bill, Where is your sense of humor? I was simply showing Donuel two views of the universe similar to his. I don't believe the second any more than the first.


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Subject: RE: BS: Created in the image of God
From: Little Hawk
Date: 28 Jun 11 - 05:59 PM

No matter what you believe you only know something from your own direct experience. The rest is just a bunch of opinions, hearsay, and conjecture. "they told me so" proves nothing.


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Subject: RE: BS: Created in the image of God
From: Bill D
Date: 28 Jun 11 - 10:13 PM

"Bill, Where is your sense of humor?"

On the internet, no one knows you HAVE a sense of humor unless you label it clearly. ☺☺☺... and I did not presume that you DID believe it....I only commented on the persistence of the uploader.


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Subject: RE: BS: Created in the image of God
From: Jack the Sailor
Date: 28 Jun 11 - 10:50 PM

Yeah Bill, The first video gave NO CLUE that I was joking.

Don't try to explain. I know you were just lecturing me for practice. and you obviously you invoked Carol because you respect her opinion.

I'll leave it up to your sense of humor to determine the tone of this post.


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Subject: RE: BS: Created in the image of God
From: Little Hawk
Date: 29 Jun 11 - 01:44 AM

If he doesn't respect her opinion, he oughta be horsewhipped. ;-)


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Subject: RE: BS: Created in the image of God
From: MGM·Lion
Date: 29 Jun 11 - 03:17 AM

---here is the answer!---

Nonsense, Jack. Everyone knows that the answer is 42.

~M~


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Subject: RE: BS: Created in the image of God
From: GUEST,Steamin' Willie
Date: 29 Jun 11 - 05:49 AM

If I am created in his image, then he can't believe in himself.

That being the case, it starts to make sense.


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Subject: RE: BS: Created in the image of God
From: Little Hawk
Date: 29 Jun 11 - 11:42 AM

Now...just a minute here! ;-) That is a specious assertion, "Mr Fluids". I never said that your independent thoughts were created in "his" image...they are entirely up to you, because you are a creature of free will. You make up your own beliefs and your own rules as you go along, same as every other creature, and you believe in yourself, don't you? That is a necessary aspect of having free will.


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Subject: RE: BS: Created in the image of God
From: Jack the Sailor
Date: 29 Jun 11 - 11:43 AM

Little Hawk's Dachshund Little Hawk! I agree! But I have no horse, I have no whip, so sarcasm will have to do.


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Subject: RE: BS: Created in the image of God
From: Jack the Sailor
Date: 29 Jun 11 - 11:47 AM

LH, I don't think that most people make up their own belief.


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Subject: RE: BS: Created in the image of God
From: CarolC
Date: 29 Jun 11 - 11:49 AM

Fuck you, Bill.


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Subject: RE: BS: Created in the image of God
From: CarolC
Date: 29 Jun 11 - 11:53 AM

By the way, Bill, this kind of behavior from you is one of the reasons I don't post here any more. So just leave me out of your silly, teenage, puerile arguments in the future. I'm not here, so please don't try to drag me into your shit.


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Subject: RE: BS: Created in the image of God
From: Jack the Sailor
Date: 29 Jun 11 - 11:54 AM

Before you react to this Bill, Please explain why you brought Carol's Name into this thread even though she has not posted on the Mudcat in more than a year.


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Subject: RE: BS: Created in the image of God
From: Jack the Sailor
Date: 29 Jun 11 - 11:59 AM

Originally, Dorothy's dog in the 1939 film The Wizard of Oz was a dachshund called Otto.[70] Due to anti-German sentiment during World War II, the dog was recast as Toto, a Cairn Terrier.


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Subject: RE: BS: Created in the image of God
From: Little Hawk
Date: 29 Jun 11 - 12:07 PM

Hi, Jack. Well, I guess it's true that a lot of people don't necessarily make up their beliefs...they just take on a whole set of them from other people! ;-) Is that what you meant? If so, I'd have to agree.

Some people make up their beliefs. Others (the vast majority?) just automatically take on the typical beliefs of those around them. And thus are a hundred thousand fools led off merrily to die in vain on some distant battlefield.


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Subject: RE: BS: Created in the image of God
From: Jack the Sailor
Date: 29 Jun 11 - 12:16 PM

Yeah that's what I meant.

In the second paragraph are you talking about WW I?


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Subject: RE: BS: Created in the image of God
From: josepp
Date: 29 Jun 11 - 12:19 PM

I disagree, Hawk. People don't make up their beliefs, they are inculcated with them in childhood but it's not a voluntary process. You don't wake up and say, "I'm going to believe this today." You may change your beliefs over time but that's based on life experiences that forces the change otherwise you'll go on believing it. You never change beliefs on a whim. So you can't make them up. Your beliefs don't come from you, they come to you.

So I would say ALL people take on the typical beliefs of those around them--not just some. And this happens early in life and the people mainly responsible for that are parents. Kids take on the beliefs of their parents and most hold on to them for the rest of their lives unless forced by circumstances to reject them for something else.


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Subject: RE: BS: Created in the image of God
From: Jack the Sailor
Date: 29 Jun 11 - 12:58 PM

"You never change beliefs on a whim. So you can't make them up. Your beliefs don't come from you, they come to you."

Of course you can change your beliefs. Of course you can make them up. People make up new beliefs every day. That's why we all don't think the Earth is on the back of a giant turtle or that the sun doesn't die every night to be reborn at dawn.


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Subject: RE: BS: Created in the image of God
From: Mrrzy
Date: 29 Jun 11 - 01:20 PM

Oh, yes, and for those who say you can only know what you experience directly, does that mean you only have faith that Australia is there, if you haven't been there yourself?


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Subject: RE: BS: Created in the image of God
From: Jack the Sailor
Date: 29 Jun 11 - 01:32 PM

Its deeper than that Mrrzy. Who is to say that one's time spent there was not actually a dream or a memory implant. You may actually be a glitch in the Terminators left memory bank.


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Subject: RE: BS: Created in the image of God
From: GUEST,Steamin' Willie
Date: 29 Jun 11 - 01:36 PM

Oy! Less of the fluids Little Hawk. You have to be a certain type of prize pillock to call me that. I'll settle for Mr Steamin'

How do you know I believe in myself? I might have low self esteem for all you know. I certainly don't let my identity out and that's shallow for starters. Mind you, through office links, I come up as the same IP as two others on mudcat occasionally, so Joe Offer might make links, even if they are wide of the mark.

Created in his image? Well, it would appear those clever science people have got back as far as a star fish when looking up our family tree. I wondered how they discovered that, and then I got a small mirror and found out for myself.

By a curious coincidence, I was looking for a metaphor for religion at the time.


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Subject: RE: BS: Created in the image of God
From: Joe Offer
Date: 29 Jun 11 - 02:12 PM

  I   make links that are "wide of the mark," Steamin' Willie?

Oh, no, say it isn't so!

What are we talking about, anyhow?

-Joe-


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Subject: RE: BS: Created in the image of God
From: Little Hawk
Date: 29 Jun 11 - 02:47 PM

I was making a good-humoured joke with the "Mr Fluids" thing, Steamin' Willie, referring to another thread. ;-) Don't take it in a bad way. I'm actually just referring humourously to all that nasty arguing on that other thread, whatever it was, that's all. I don't actually think of you as "Mr Fluids".

As for what you said there...

"How do you know I believe in myself?" - I think you believe in whatever you imagine your self to be.

"I might have low self esteem for all you know." - Yes, you might. In that case, that's the self you believe in, the one defined by your hypothetically low self esteem.

This is the universal human problem, in fact. People become the type of person that they (subconsciously) think they are. In my Dad's case, for example, although he was outwardly VERY confident and self-promoting, he inwardly expected people not to acknowledge his true worth and thus he unconsciously sabotaged virtually every situation he embarked upon. In my case, although I do think I'm valuable and worthy, I also expect others not to recognize it...and that has caused me a certain lack of self-confidence in a lot of situations...and so on.

We become what we believe we are. If we could change those negative core beliefs to something more positive, it would radically change what we are.

I think religion itself is a metaphor for the universal challenges we all experience in meeting life and attempting to deal with it. Life is difficult, but it also can be very beautiful...so we see both of those things reflected strongly in religious ideas.

josepp - I basically agree with what you said there. Yes, "People don't make up their beliefs, they are inculcated with them in childhood but it's not a voluntary process." Right on! As we move into adolescence and early adulthood, however, we may very well challenge a lot of those inculcated beliefs that were passed on to us...and it's good that we do. We may then make up some new ideas of our own to work with...hopefully. Most people's beliefs do come TO them from others. A few are independent enough to give birth to their own ideas and beliefs.


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Subject: RE: BS: Created in the image of God
From: number 6
Date: 29 Jun 11 - 02:47 PM

God has had many images throughout time

God circa 1965

biLL


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Subject: RE: BS: Created in the image of God
From: Little Hawk
Date: 29 Jun 11 - 02:49 PM

Which version of God is that one? It doesn't look like Bob Dylan.


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Subject: RE: BS: Created in the image of God
From: Jack the Sailor
Date: 29 Jun 11 - 02:49 PM

LH!! If no one makes up new beliefs, where do new beliefs come from?


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Subject: RE: BS: Created in the image of God
From: Little Hawk
Date: 29 Jun 11 - 02:55 PM

Hey, c'mon, Jack! I just said in the post above that "A few are independent enough to give birth to their own ideas and beliefs."

And that is my contention. Most people do simply adopt existing beliefs from their parents, their teachers, their society's authority structures, etc....but some people DO make up new beliefs, come up with new ideas, and this allows society to progress in new directions. That is where the new beliefs come from. Some new beliefs are very helpful to humanity. Some are not.


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Subject: RE: BS: Created in the image of God
From: number 6
Date: 29 Jun 11 - 02:56 PM

Beliefs come from GOD Jack ..... you can't belief until he/she/it has spoken directly to ya.

LH ... that's what he looked like around 1965, at least that's what they said ... I've heard mention that he did look somewhat like Bob Dylan around 1966-1967 .... but others would dispute that.

biLL


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Subject: RE: BS: Created in the image of God
From: Little Hawk
Date: 29 Jun 11 - 03:00 PM

Okay....

****

On another tack: My Dachshund believes implicitly that he is THE most important and magnificent lifeform that has ever lived and that all the world MUST bow to his wishes! Did he get those beliefs from God? ;-)


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Subject: RE: BS: Created in the image of God
From: number 6
Date: 29 Jun 11 - 03:04 PM

Interesting point L.H. .... I was walking my dog CoCo through Queen's suare here in SJ this morning when some old guy stopped to say (directly to CoCo) ... "my, you are one good looking dog" ... well, today (at least) that man is GOD to CoCo.

biLL


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Subject: RE: BS: Created in the image of God
From: Jack the Sailor
Date: 29 Jun 11 - 03:07 PM

NO YOUR Dachshund got those beliefs because YOU someone spoiled him.

biLL, shhhhhh, I was trying to get LH to say that....


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Subject: RE: BS: Created in the image of God
From: Little Hawk
Date: 29 Jun 11 - 03:09 PM

Yes, they swell visibly when praised and complimented. ;-) They give you a look that says, "Tell me more."


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Subject: RE: BS: Created in the image of God
From: Jack the Sailor
Date: 29 Jun 11 - 03:24 PM

LOL

Little Hawk,

You are a one man personal belief factory!


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Subject: RE: BS: Created in the image of God
From: Little Hawk
Date: 29 Jun 11 - 06:06 PM

Yep. ;-) And proud of it.

You're right about the dog, but it wasn't me who spoiled him. My mother spoiled him, as she does all sentient beings who reside within the (fortunately quite limited) boundaries of her royal domain...she destroys them with indulgence and lack of direction. Given this tendency of hers, I was helpless to prevent the utter spoiling of the dog, and he was only one of a long series to whom it has been done.


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Subject: RE: BS: Created in the image of God
From: josepp
Date: 29 Jun 11 - 06:16 PM

////Of course you can change your beliefs./////

I didn't say you can't. I said you don't change your beliefs on a whim. You don't decide to worship Adolf Hitler for the hell of it. Something had to have happened that forced that change in you.

////Of course you can make them up. People make up new beliefs every day. That's why we all don't think the Earth is on the back of a giant turtle or that the sun doesn't die every night to be reborn at dawn.////

That displays a complete ignorance of the mythmaking process but that's another thread.


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Subject: RE: BS: Created in the image of God
From: Little Hawk
Date: 29 Jun 11 - 06:30 PM

True, josepp, you don't change your beliefs on a whim. In fact something has to go pretty deep in somone before they'll change any of their cherished beliefs. Getting a person to change a core belief is not easily done.


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Subject: RE: BS: Created in the image of God
From: josepp
Date: 29 Jun 11 - 06:42 PM

Whether memes are real or not, it's a useful exercise. Beliefs are memes that jump from host to host. You don't make up memes, memes are simply here and you adopt them, so to speak.


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Subject: RE: BS: Created in the image of God
From: Jack the Sailor
Date: 29 Jun 11 - 07:11 PM

josepp,

Someone makes up the memes. Someone always makes up (of dreams up) the stories that becomes myths. I've read Joesph Campbell too.


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Subject: RE: BS: Created in the image of God
From: Jack the Sailor
Date: 29 Jun 11 - 07:15 PM

What difference does the word "Whim" make. I've witnessed people on an acid trip changed beliefs. I've seen people change beliefs watching Michael Moore. Hell Roger and Me changed some of my beliefs about corporations. People change beliefs based on TV ads and the deaths of their dogs. Is that "whim" enough for you.

People can and do change their beliefs every day. Whim shwim.


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Subject: RE: BS: Created in the image of God
From: Jack the Sailor
Date: 29 Jun 11 - 07:16 PM

josepp,

Someone makes up the memes. Someone always makes up (OR dreams up) the stories that becomes myths. I've read Joesph Campbell too.


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Subject: RE: BS: Created in the image of God
From: josepp
Date: 29 Jun 11 - 07:25 PM

////Someone makes up the memes.////

No, in memetics, memes aren't made up. They are like parasites in search of hosts. There are always more memes than there are brains to host them so the memes are in fierce competition--looking for the first advantage to move in and set up shop.

////Someone always makes up (OR dreams up) the stories that becomes myths. I've read Joesph Campbell too.////

Myths aren't made up. They are handed down. As far back as you go, they are always there. It's like asking who was the first person to depict the heavens. We don't know. We've always been doing it. That's why older cultures refer to an Age of Heroes in our ancient past. Someone started it but it was someone far wiser than us who, for whatever reason, are no longer here.


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Subject: RE: BS: Created in the image of God
From: Jack the Sailor
Date: 29 Jun 11 - 07:44 PM

>>>No, in memetics, memes aren't made up. They are like parasites in search of hosts. There are always more memes than there are brains to host them so the memes are in fierce competition--looking for the first advantage to move in and set up shop.<<<

Let me tell you something Earth shattering Joe. It will be especially, especially Earth shattering to one with as fine honed a BullShit detector as your self. Richard Dawkins is a BullShitter, and everything he said about memes being self replicating ideas without people is BullShit. In fairness to him, it can be described as thought experiment. But from your point of view, it is certainly BullShit, because it duped you into make that silly statement which essentially means that that ideas in society make themselves up.

I am sure that Campbell wasn't Bull Shitting you Joe. You apparently are not a careful reader. I am pretty sure that he never said that no one ever makes up myths and that those who do were in any way superior beings. He did say a lot about myths being a product of our psychology, leading to similar myths in separate cultures, but he also celebrated the storyteller in the creation of these myths implying that the myths all started with someone telling a story.


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Subject: RE: BS: Created in the image of God
From: Little Hawk
Date: 29 Jun 11 - 08:31 PM

I'm having a hard time keeping score here. Would you guys type a little slower? ;-)


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Subject: RE: BS: Created in the image of God
From: Jack the Sailor
Date: 29 Jun 11 - 09:06 PM

the guy who says that ideas make themselves up and then inflict themselves on people is losing.


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Subject: RE: BS: Created in the image of God
From: number 6
Date: 29 Jun 11 - 10:09 PM

"the guy who says that ideas make themselves up and then inflict themselves on people is losing."

No shit !

biLL   .... :-)


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Subject: RE: BS: Created in the image of God
From: josepp
Date: 29 Jun 11 - 10:16 PM

////Let me tell you something Earth shattering Joe. It will be especially, especially Earth shattering to one with as fine honed a BullShit detector as your self. Richard Dawkins is a BullShitter, and everything he said about memes being self replicating ideas without people is BullShit. In fairness to him, it can be described as thought experiment. But from your point of view, it is certainly BullShit, because it duped you into make that silly statement which essentially means that that ideas in society make themselves up.////

I made clear from the beginning that memes are a good exercise whether they are real or not. Not reading other people's responses thoroughly, are we? That's what generally happens when you get angry and you generally get angry when you know you were bullshitting and got called on it. You clearly never studied the meme theory very closely.

////I am sure that Campbell wasn't Bull Shitting you Joe. You apparently are not a careful reader. I am pretty sure that he never said that no one ever makes up myths and that those who do were in any way superior beings. He did say a lot about myths being a product of our psychology, leading to similar myths in separate cultures, but he also celebrated the storyteller in the creation of these myths implying that the myths all started with someone telling a story.////

I don't know what Campbell says. I've never actually read anything by him although I'm sure he's a worthwhile read. Let me explain something earth-shattering to you, Joe: Campbell isn't they only guy who writes about myths. There's Gerald Massey, there's G.R.S. Mead, there's Alvin Boyd Kuhn, there's Joscelyn Godwin, there's Albert Churchward, there's Jordan Maxwell. I like to cover my bases rather than put all the eggs in one basket.


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Subject: RE: BS: Created in the image of God
From: Jack the Sailor
Date: 29 Jun 11 - 11:26 PM

Memes are ideas. Of course they exist. They aren't "parasites" looking for hosts. Of course there are more ideas than brains. Brains can and do hold many more than one idea. And no I haven't "studied" meme theory closely. But can you guess why? Because it is BULLSHIT!!!! I don't study BullShit. I don't have to. But you should continue your studies. You have much to learn.


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Subject: RE: BS: Created in the image of God
From: GUEST,F.N Pranny
Date: 29 Jun 11 - 11:33 PM

" Joe: Campbell isn't they only guy who writes about myths. There's Gerald Massey, there's G.R.S. Mead, there's Alvin Boyd Kuhn, there's Joscelyn Godwin, there's Albert Churchward, there's Jordan Maxwell. "

I haven't read any of them.
But I probably haven't mythed much...


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Subject: RE: BS: Created in the image of God
From: Jack the Sailor
Date: 30 Jun 11 - 12:33 AM

Now here is a BullShitter!!

James Churchward

According to Churchward, Mu "extended from somewhere north of Hawaii to the south as far as the Fijis and Easter Island." He claimed Mu was the site of the Garden of Eden and the home of 64,000,000 inhabitants - known as the Naacals. Its civilization, which flourished 50,000 years before Churchward's day, was technologically more advanced than his own, and the ancient civilizations of India, Babylon, Persia, Egypt and the Mayas were merely the decayed remnants of its colonies.


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Subject: RE: BS: Created in the image of God
From: Jack the Sailor
Date: 30 Jun 11 - 12:37 AM

>>Campbell isn't they only guy who writes about myths. There's Gerald Massey, there's G.R.S. Mead, there's Alvin Boyd Kuhn, there's Joscelyn Godwin, there's Albert Churchward, there's Jordan Maxwell. I like to cover my bases rather than put all the eggs in one basket. <<

Fair enough, Show me a quote from any one of them supporting this nonsense.

>>Myths aren't made up. They are handed down. As far back as you go, they are always there. It's like asking who was the first person to depict the heavens. We don't know. We've always been doing it. That's why older cultures refer to an Age of Heroes in our ancient past. Someone started it but it was someone far wiser than us who, for whatever reason, are no longer here. <<


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Subject: RE: BS: Created in the image of God
From: Jack the Sailor
Date: 30 Jun 11 - 12:45 AM

Maybe
this is the answer.


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Subject: RE: BS: Created in the image of God
From: GUEST,Steamin' WIllie
Date: 30 Jun 11 - 03:58 AM

Hey Joe;

You never make links that are wide of the mark my friend. I was just referring to the fact that three Mudcatters share an IP occasionally..

Little Hawk;

I laughed when I read it, I never take anything in a bad way. The Mr Fluids is more to do with a rather disturbing website M'Unlearned Friend went on for whatever reason he has, and found a rather disgusting sexual act which was referred to as a steamin' willie. I hadn't heard of it, but he obviously had and just to show his lack of inhibitions called me Mr Fluids as either a compliment or insult, I don't know (or care) which.

Anyway.... back to how we were created. Ewan McColl reckoned I was created with "Five steel ribs and an iron backbone, teeth that can cut through rock and black stone, working my time away in the mine, go down."

Sounds good to me, and equally plausible to anything else I have ever read.


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Subject: RE: BS: Created in the image of God
From: Joe Offer
Date: 30 Jun 11 - 04:08 AM

Aw, shucks, Willie, that's a nice thing to say.
My indignation above, of course, was feigned.

-Joe-


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Subject: RE: BS: Created in the image of God
From: Little Hawk
Date: 30 Jun 11 - 10:07 AM

I love feigned indignation. ;-)


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Subject: RE: BS: Created in the image of God
From: Donuel
Date: 30 Jun 11 - 11:10 AM

The memes of current Christianity compared to the original Christian ideas are like wine flavored Kool Aid compared to a fine wine.

The original christian teachings included a profound concept that, " God became man so that man could someday become God." That is both social and cosmic enlightenment, that is if you really think the idea through.

Today after all the all male power and wealth hungry councils as well as fundamentalist Protestant rewrites on what to ban and what to make up in the bible, people are left with junk food and Judeo/Egyptian left overs for the spirit.

The Tao of Physics, ancient Buddism and Indian texts expand the memes of the living texture of the universe resembling truths of the greater universe. Sometiomes they are humorous. Using math I discovered the fractal equation that produces an elephant shaped creature that anyone would recognize. The image of creatures obeys universal laws or if you prefer "local ordinances".

I am surprised that no one has brought up mirror dualism or the male and female aspects of the universe.

What the F happened, did the monotheists compromise with the dualists and came up with a trinity? Meanwhile the Hindu are perfectly satisfied with hundreds of deities as well as deity within ourselves.


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Subject: RE: BS: Created in the image of God
From: Little Hawk
Date: 30 Jun 11 - 01:17 PM

Right on, Donuel!


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Subject: RE: BS: Created in the image of God
From: Stringsinger
Date: 30 Jun 11 - 07:15 PM

Richard Feynman: "Those who think they know about quantum mechanics,
don't understand quantum mechanics."

Made in the image of god? Which one? The christian one? or the Islamic one?
or the Jewish one? or the hindu one? or the scientology one?


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Subject: RE: BS: Created in the image of God
From: Little Hawk
Date: 01 Jul 11 - 11:47 AM

All images you are aware of are produced in your own mind and recognized as such by your own nervous system. They all come from the same source. It doesn't matter if YOU think that source is the Christian God, the Jewish God, the Buddhist concept, the Hindu concept or the traditional Native American Great Spirit concept or anything else. That's just your chosen cultural way of looking at it, but it's all the same source, and it's within you. And it's equally within everyone else (although they may use different words to label it). And you can't go anywhere to get away from it. You will call it whatever you decide to call it, and that's usually determined by your culture, your family upbringing, etc. It pre-existed the physical you, and it will still be around long after you pass on from this mortal coil, and there's not a danged thing you can do about it. ;-D


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Subject: RE: BS: Created in the image of God
From: Mrrzy
Date: 01 Jul 11 - 09:33 PM

I love Feynman! Another great lost through puritanism...

I do wish that when people were being inclusive and saying "people of all faiths" they would add "and none" - just 2 little syllables and you actually include everybody, without lumping the faithless with the faithful.

Blair did it in his just-after-9/11 speech, and I was impressed.


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Subject: RE: BS: Created in the image of God
From: Little Hawk
Date: 01 Jul 11 - 09:53 PM

Everyone has faith in something. If you use the word "faith" to only mean faith in the tenets of an organized religion, I think you are misusing it, and not giving recognition to your own forms of faith...meaning: all the stuff you routinely take for granted and rely upon without having had either proof or direct experience of it.


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Subject: RE: BS: Created in the image of God
From: Mrrzy
Date: 02 Jul 11 - 04:58 PM

I use faith to mean "belief in the absence of evidence" - things about which there is evidence, I don't have faith in, I can conclude about.

You don't need to have this kind of faith in anything at all.


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Subject: RE: BS: Created in the image of God
From: Little Hawk
Date: 02 Jul 11 - 05:36 PM

Uh-huh. I know what you mean...but the world is full of people who belong to no organized religion whatsoever, who are actively hostile TO organized religion on principle, and who yet will swallow anything that their M.D., their government, various people in the the science community, their news reporters, and various other supposed civil "authorities" tell them...and without having personally seen one shred of real evidence firsthand. They take it on external authority, NOT on observation or understanding of the evidence.

They have blind faith in the word of certain others, and they look no farther than that. That's exactly the same problem many people in organized religions have, and it indicates an equal level of faith and naivete in either case. You know what it really is? It's conformity. It's the behaviour of sheep. It is the naive trust that Big Brother (whether he is a priest, a doctor, a scientist, a military commander, or a politician) knows best, and if they simply follow what he tells them they will be safe and secure.

Religion is only one of a great many commonly established ways of leading the faith-based down the garden path to what they know not.

I agree that we do not need to have faith in things about which there is no evidence. And we do not need to categorically believe so-called "evidence" which has emanated solely from statements by other people who have told us that it IS evidence. They may be incorrect. They may be biased. They may be dispensing propaganda. They may be looking to orchestrate a war or land a lucrative contract for their research facility. They may simply be mistaken in their interpretation of the evidence they have gathered.

Neither do we need to categorically disbelieve things which we have no evidence against....but plenty of religious and non-religious and anti-religious people do that here loudly and frequently. They categorically deny many possibilities that they have no evidence against. Why? Because it suits their kneejerk prejudices, that's why. They want things to be a certain way, therefore they choose to disbelieve all kinds of stuff that they have no evidence against (but just don't like), and they believe all kinds of stuff that they have no evidence for (but just like).

That is a stupid attitude, in either case. It doesn't involve thought, it involves an instantaneous reaction based on one's past prejudices, not on evidence.


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Subject: RE: BS: Created in the image of God
From: gnu
Date: 02 Jul 11 - 05:39 PM

I am fuckin lost. God help me.

I mean... in this discussion. Otherwise, I am cool.


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Subject: RE: BS: Created in the image of God
From: Stringsinger
Date: 02 Jul 11 - 07:01 PM

LH, as we evolve as a species, the notion of a god might change.

I also use the word "faith" to imply addiction. Addictions have been known to
change the physiology of the brain.

It's possible that believing in Santa Claus doesn't hurt others. OTOH what does
it do to an adult who still believes?

Believing is cheap. Anyone can do it. But proving something to be scientifically
accurate is much more difficult and far more useful.


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Subject: RE: BS: Created in the image of God
From: Little Hawk
Date: 02 Jul 11 - 07:48 PM

Proving something to be accurate by ANY practical means whatsoever is much more difficult and far more useful than just "believing" in it because someone else told you to...and I highly recommend seeking such direct proof for yourself...and listening to MANY viewpoints, not just the officially sanctioned viewpoint of your day. Scientific means are one of several ways to prove that something is accurate, but they aren't the only way. One way you can prove something for yourself, for example, is to DO it or experience it or witness it and use your own powers of observation. You can do that whether or not you are a scientist. People need to learn to trust themselves, not just rely blindly on secondhand information from high and mighty hierarchical authorities such as churches, governments, news services, intelligence agencies, medical authorities, and other professional authority figures. Every society is ruled by such authorities, both religious and secular. Most people trust them blindly...and are often misled by them for a variety of reasons.

In other words, "if you want somebody you can trust, trust yourself" - Bob Dylan


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Subject: RE: BS: Created in the image of God
From: Jack the Sailor
Date: 02 Jul 11 - 09:05 PM

Well, it may be the devil or it may be the Lord
But you're gonna have to serve somebody


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Subject: RE: BS: Created in the image of God
From: Little Hawk
Date: 02 Jul 11 - 10:32 PM

Yes, indeedy! ;-)

You can serve nothing but your own short-sighted and greedy self-interest (as is done by the owners of many profit-seeking enterprises, and by many governments, and by a good many churches)...or you can serve the common good of all, as is done by some others. And that's the dividing line between good and evil consequences. Dylan put it in biblical terms in that song. I put it in more secular terms, but it is both a moral and a spiritual issue of great significance, in my opinion.


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Subject: RE: BS: Created in the image of God
From: GUEST,Big Ballad Singer
Date: 03 Jul 11 - 12:34 PM

What if God was one of us?

Seriously, I've never understood why people can't just settle for the idea that "God" matters when "God" makes a difference to YOU, not as the cure-all for everyone ELSE'S problems.

Bibles (or Qurans or whatevers), prayer, worship, good deeds... all these things are PRODUCTS of faith, which by definition cannot be defended or explained empirically.

Let the "fact" (so-called) that you or I or ANYTHING is "created in the image of God" motivate YOU to make YOUR decisions a certain way, and you'll never have to worry about that one little piece of the universe being "right with God". You can seize your own little bit of ground for faith and "God" and "truth", and make that one place a bastion of righteousness, but you simply can't enforce belief or ask anyone else to adhere to what is ultimately a unique and individual worldview.

Even people who supposedly share the "same faith" (i.e. fellow Christians or Muslims or whoever) will never experience "God" the exact same way.

The big dichotomy exists between agreeing to the same STATEMENTS or RULES about "God" and actually EXPERIENCING somewhat of the Divine presence. Lots of people can sign a "statement of faith" or what-have-you, but that doesn't make the "facts" about God any more uniform or definable than a speed limit sign and some lines make everyone drive the same way at the same speed all the time.

"Hast thou faith? Have it between thyself and God."


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Subject: RE: BS: Created in the image of God
From: Little Hawk
Date: 03 Jul 11 - 02:44 PM

I have faith in life. It provides everything that is needed, including challenge. You step in at birth. You step out at death. In between those 2 crossings, everything is provided.


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Subject: RE: BS: Created in the image of God
From: GUEST,999 I just found religion.
Date: 03 Jul 11 - 02:47 PM

I googled God in Google Images and this is what came up.

http://t1.gstatic.com/images?q=tbn:ANd9GcTX0E4W0iz_JDbgfGIddWFRG6qm2yKysdindL5LUPmDFBqu8iHyWA


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Subject: RE: BS: Created in the image of God
From: Little Hawk
Date: 03 Jul 11 - 04:55 PM

Neato. ;-)


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Subject: RE: BS: Created in the image of God
From: Donuel
Date: 03 Jul 11 - 07:58 PM

Gnu. You have probably seen Hindu people greet each over with hands together and bpw slightly. That custom is the observance of the God nature in the other person you are greeting.

What God wualities do you have? Well if you find a little fish that has become stranded in a tidal sand bar puddle, and you then take your foot and dredge a little channel for water to connect the fish to the main body of water...you are a God to that fish.

You can be a vengeful or a caring God. You can call people here insane perverts for having an idea you do not understand or misunderstood and wou will have an effect on that person. Or you can respectfully disagree or ask for clarification with respect and you will have a different effect on theat person.

Free will is your expression of your god like powers in the sphere of influence you posess. Unless you are Q you can not change the cosmological conastants in the Universe to achieve some desired result, but you can smile and encourage someone else who is along on the voyage of discovering thier influence on the world in shich they are actually fledgling gods. Even if it is only for one little fish.


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Subject: RE: BS: Created in the image of God
From: Jack the Sailor
Date: 03 Jul 11 - 08:57 PM

You know if you arbitrarily change the meaning of words, especially words like "God", conversation becomes meaningless.


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Subject: RE: BS: Created in the image of God
From: Donuel
Date: 03 Jul 11 - 09:48 PM

IF the most meaningful thing you hear is the parroting back of your own words, opinions and dogma you will probably never learn anything new and self knowledge will retreat from your grasp.


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Subject: RE: BS: Created in the image of God
From: Little Hawk
Date: 03 Jul 11 - 10:10 PM

Meaning can always be found in another's words if you bother to try and understand them. If all you want to do is score some kind of point on them (fight little ego wars, in other words) then you probably will have neither the patience, the inclination nor the good intentions to even bother trying to understand them.


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Subject: RE: BS: Created in the image of God
From: Jack the Sailor
Date: 04 Jul 11 - 02:11 AM

Meaning can be found in the words of others. So can BullShit. Meaning is certainly easier to find when standard vocabulary is used.

A person who digs a trench for a fish is a helpful person, not a god. Perhaps one might say that compassion or karma is involved. Fish have no concept of God. I guess it could work as a metaphor, but for what? There are no "Godlike powers", there is only a person moving a foot.


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Subject: RE: BS: Created in the image of God
From: GUEST,Guest from Sanity
Date: 04 Jul 11 - 07:20 AM

I guess if you could see all of God, with just these eyes, I guess you could make the call as what God would look like....but, being as you can't..let's make it up...even give Him a political party to belong to...even say it isn't so, and pretend to know something! Ah, the wonders of old folkies! Come, sing 'Kumbayah', and sing it like Neil Young, and maybe you can get yourself to believe...well just about anything!

GfS


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Subject: RE: BS: Created in the image of God
From: GUEST,Robby the Cod fish
Date: 04 Jul 11 - 12:09 PM

"Fish have no concept of God"

Oh yeah, That's what you think.


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Subject: RE: BS: Created in the image of God
From: Donuel
Date: 04 Jul 11 - 12:16 PM

Saving a little fish from certain death is an example. One could just as easily stomp it to death. The sceario only serves as an allororical example.

To the fish, you are a god. The act may go un noticed by the fish but none the less a miracle has been performed to allow the fish to live. Perspective requires you to think outside yourself.


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Subject: RE: BS: Created in the image of God
From: Jack the Sailor
Date: 04 Jul 11 - 12:23 PM

It is not a miracle. It is just a foot a fish. The fish does consider miracles. The is just a fish.


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Subject: RE: BS: Created in the image of God
From: Jack the Sailor
Date: 04 Jul 11 - 12:24 PM

The fish is just a fish.


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Subject: RE: BS: Created in the image of God
From: Bill D
Date: 04 Jul 11 - 12:56 PM

JtS had it right: "You know if you arbitrarily change the meaning of words, especially words like "God", conversation becomes meaningless"

There's even a technical term for it in Philosophy. It is called Equivocation


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Subject: RE: BS: Created in the image of God
From: Little Hawk
Date: 04 Jul 11 - 01:10 PM

It is...for you...whatever you decide to believe it is, Jack. Allow that freedom to decide what to believe for other people too, and we're in a position where we can respect one another and not just quickly label someone else's thinking as "bullshit" just because it doesn't dovetail perfectly with our own thinking.

There are innumerable ways of seeing and defining "God". Yours isn't the only one. It isn't the only "right" one. It's one of many possible ones. And there is no reason why people should not be free to find many unique ways of defining what "God" means to them.

Freedom of thought is essential in order to have a free society. Agreed? Given freedom of thought, we will find many ways to describe what the concept "God" means to us, whether we believe in it or not, and if so, what that belief (or disbelief) involves.

Donuel's example is perfectly understandable. You don't have to agree with it, but neither do you have any justifiable reason to call it "bullshit", just because it doesn't match your familiar view of things.


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Subject: RE: BS: Created in the image of God
From: Mrrzy
Date: 04 Jul 11 - 01:17 PM

To a fish you are not a god, you are either prey or predator. And if neither, you are nothing.

That's why I'm not against early abortion - at that stage, all you're getting rid of is a fish.


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Subject: RE: BS: Created in the image of God
From: Bill D
Date: 04 Jul 11 - 01:34 PM

"And there is no reason why people should not be free to find many unique ways of defining what "God" means to them."

Except that so many people intend that their personal definition should be the one accepted by others. It is a bit different than defining 'antique' or 'large' ...or 'folk'. There can be disputes over those, but seldom wars waged over them.

My opinion is that within a specific discussion, the word 'God' needs to have an agreed on definition or, as JtS said, conversation becomes quite awkward, if not meaningless. I suppose it is possible to just have a discussion OF the idea of 'personal concepts of God', but that is not the usual thing.


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Subject: RE: BS: Created in the image of God
From: Jack the Sailor
Date: 04 Jul 11 - 02:12 PM

If Donuel is free to call a simple act of rather pointless kindness and expression of Godly qualities, why am I not free to say that is BullShit?

It is all in the context. I would use his example to point out the opposite of Godliness. A child at that sandbar might think he or she was playing God. An adult at that sandbar would think of how many fish wash up on all the sandbars of the world at any one time and realize how small that one little act is. A bear, or a hungry person is going to see that fish and think Food! Is the being that eats the fish Satan to that fish? I think not.

The fish, being a fish, is not contemplating God. The fish has no sense of creation or deliverance or good or evil. The fish is just going to keep flopping around until it finds water, or death.


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Subject: RE: BS: Created in the image of God
From: GUEST,Robby the Cod fish
Date: 04 Jul 11 - 02:39 PM

"The fish is just going to keep flopping around until it finds water, or death."

Little do you know that the fish is frantically praying "oh God, help me God"


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Subject: RE: BS: Created in the image of God
From: GUEST,Simon the Seagull
Date: 04 Jul 11 - 02:43 PM

yum.. thank God for beached and flopping convenience food


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Subject: RE: BS: Created in the image of God
From: Little Hawk
Date: 04 Jul 11 - 02:55 PM

Bill, you say that your "opinion is that within a specific discussion, the word 'God' needs to have an agreed on definition".

Oh, really? ;-) And who among us shall get to dictate to all the rest what that definition must be?

And if no one gets to dictate it...then how shall we reach agreement on it? And if we don't reach agreement on it, what's so terrible about that?????

The most interesting thing about discussing "God", as far as I'm concerned, is hearing what each person's unique idea or concept of God is, and getting a chance to think in depth about that. Ditto for discussing spirituality or any other such subject. Our world is enriched by the multiplicity of ideas we have about such things.

I find it desirable that we have many ways of defining "God", not threatening, and I have no wish to force other people to define God the way I might choose to. We benefit from having different views and giving fair consideration to them.

It is fear that makes people want to force other people to think the same way they do. It's a control game. I have no wish to force anyone to define God in any particular way, but I'm quite interested in hearing what anyone else thinks about God, and why they think that way. As they explain it, I get to know something about them and I may get to know something new about concepts of God too. How can that possibly be bad?


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Subject: RE: BS: Created in the image of God
From: GUEST,Satan the Seagull
Date: 04 Jul 11 - 02:55 PM

I CRAP!!!! on your so called GOD!!! Mr. Fish!!!


Buuuuwhahahahahahah!!!


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Subject: RE: BS: Created in the image of God
From: Jack the Sailor
Date: 04 Jul 11 - 03:00 PM

Its not about dictating the definition, its about discussing things in a common, understandable language.

>>And who among us shall get to dictate to all the rest what that definition must be<<

How about Merriam Webster?

1god
noun \ˈgäd also ˈgȯd\
Definition of GOD
1
capitalized : the supreme or ultimate reality: as a : the Being perfect in power, wisdom, and goodness who is worshipped as creator and ruler of the universe b Christian Science : the incorporeal divine Principle ruling over all as eternal Spirit : infinite Mind
2
: a being or object believed to have more than natural attributes and powers and to require human worship; specifically : one controlling a particular aspect or part of reality
3
: a person or thing of supreme value
4
: a powerful ruler


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Subject: RE: BS: Created in the image of God
From: GUEST,Arthur the Agnostic Sea Eagle
Date: 04 Jul 11 - 03:02 PM

Oh dear, I don't know, it's difficult to work out what to believe..

oh look, tasty seagulls distracted by a morcel of fish..

.. and deep philosophical thinking does make me peckish........


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Subject: RE: BS: Created in the image of God
From: Bill D
Date: 04 Jul 11 - 03:23 PM

"And if no one gets to dictate it...then how shall we reach agreement on it? "

awww..c'mon! Think about that...all that needs to be done is agree for the purposes of THIS discussion. If that IS impossible, then shrug and not bother. **IF** the discussion continues with conflicting definitions, about all that will be accomplished is stronger defenses against 'his' silly concepts....unless, as I said, the discussion is about different definitions. Then, people might learn something.


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Subject: RE: BS: Created in the image of God
From: Jack the Sailor
Date: 04 Jul 11 - 03:44 PM

Little Hawk, I'm pretty sure you are not getting a look at Donuel's idea of God in this thread. I don't know about you, but I think that most of us are plaing word games. Why don't we play Donuel's game with any random word substituted for "god."

We all have a little aspect of spoon in us. When we cup our hands to take a sip of water. When we stir things up on a thread like this we are accessing our inner "spoon."

As stirring is to the spoon, so is "free will" to the qualities of God.


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Subject: RE: BS: Created in the image of God
From: GUEST,999
Date: 04 Jul 11 - 03:51 PM

"Fish have no concept of God."

So one goldfish turns to then other and says, "If there's no god, who changes then water?"


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Subject: RE: BS: Created in the image of God
From: Jack the Sailor
Date: 04 Jul 11 - 03:53 PM

Fish have no concept of "water"


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Subject: RE: BS: Created in the image of God
From: GUEST,999
Date: 04 Jul 11 - 04:06 PM

They must. Leave them near water and they try to get back to it.


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Subject: RE: BS: Created in the image of God
From: Jack the Sailor
Date: 04 Jul 11 - 04:21 PM

A fish has no concept of try. It flops, which is really just a swimming motion, instinctively.


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Subject: RE: BS: Created in the image of God
From: GUEST,999
Date: 04 Jul 11 - 04:23 PM

And you prove this how?


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Subject: RE: BS: Created in the image of God
From: GUEST,999 from BBC News (online)
Date: 04 Jul 11 - 04:28 PM

Scientists highlight fish 'intelligence'

Fish are socially intelligent creatures who do not deserve their reputation as the dim-wits of the animal kingdom, according to a group of leading scientists.

Scientists say fish do not deserve their "dim-witted" reputation
Rather than simply being instinct-driven, the group says fish are cunning, manipulative and even cultured.

The three experts from the universities of Edinburgh, St Andrews and Leeds said there had been huge changes in science's understanding of the psychological and mental abilities of fish in the last few years.

Writing in the journal Fish and Fisheries, biologists Calum Brown, Keven Laland and Jens Krause said fish were now seen as highly intelligent creatures.

They said: "Gone (or at least obsolete) is the image of fish as drudging and dim-witted pea-brains, driven largely by 'instinct',' with what little behavioural flexibility they possess being severely hampered by an infamous 'three-second memory'.



The article continues.


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Subject: RE: BS: Created in the image of God
From: Jack the Sailor
Date: 04 Jul 11 - 04:35 PM

It is quite a leap to go from that article to "if you help a fish, he will see you as God." which is my paraphrase of Donuel's post.

999, you see fish a being with a purposeful life taking deliberate actions, I see him as a good source of protein and omega 3.


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Subject: RE: BS: Created in the image of God
From: GUEST,999
Date: 04 Jul 11 - 04:43 PM

"999, you see fish a being with a purposeful life taking deliberate actions, I see him as a good source of protein and omega 3."

You have NO idea how I see fish, Jack.


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Subject: RE: BS: Created in the image of God
From: Jack the Sailor
Date: 04 Jul 11 - 04:49 PM

OK


You see

You are arguing that...


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Subject: RE: BS: Created in the image of God
From: Little Hawk
Date: 04 Jul 11 - 05:34 PM

Jack, I find Merriam-Webster's definition of "God" woefully limited in the light of many excellent books that I have been reading for the past 20 years, and some of which I am presently reading pretty much on a daily basis.

Merriam-Webster's definition is the kindergarten level of talking about God from an utterly conventional point of view.

There is no reason whatsoever for anyone to be bothered by ideas about God that go way beyond what Merriam-Webster has to say on the subject. The "God" that Merriam-Webster is talking about is pretty clearly based upon the conventional Judeo-Christian-Muslim concept of "God"...and, heck, that's barely a fingernail-scratching of the subject. Kindergarten stuff, in my opinion. That's fine if you want to limit yourself TO the spiritual equivalent of kindergarten, but it doesn't mean everyone else has to do that too.

Ditto to you, Bill. If you want to limit the discussion to a definition like that, it's because you want to control the discussion and keep it confined inside your own mental comfort zone. Given that we are all free beings, born free and living free you don't get to do that. ;-) No one gets to limit or control the discussion.

Just express your own ideas freely, let others express theirs freely, and don't go telling them that they must conform to either you or Merriam-Webster...or the Pope...or the Ayatollah...or the Encylopedia Britannica...or some other such whitewashed mental idol like that.


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Subject: RE: BS: Created in the image of God
From: Bill D
Date: 04 Jul 11 - 08:14 PM

". If you want to limit the discussion to a definition like that,.."

sheesh... I'm not TRYING to control any discussions. I'm simply describing a logical situation that results when people do...or don't.. share a definition. If they WISH to bumble on at cross-purposes, they have my permission. I can even stand on the sidelines and be amused at the results...


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Subject: RE: BS: Created in the image of God
From: GUEST,Perry the Porpoise
Date: 04 Jul 11 - 08:42 PM

"If they WISH to bumble on at cross-purpoises"

Please don't bring porpoises into this silly debate. We porpoise are atheists. You silly assed humans. If you would only stop arguing about God, who is God, the God damned image of God, and stop eating tuna, the world would be a much better place.


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Subject: RE: BS: Created in the image of God
From: Bill D
Date: 04 Jul 11 - 10:21 PM

Seems like at least ONE porpoise is kinda cross...as well as being a mediocre speller...


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