BS: Oldsmobile Toronado

Subject: BS: Oldsmobile Toronado
From: Edthefolkie
Date: 30 Jun 11 - 07:35 AM

I've always liked the Mk1 Toronado although we don't see many (any?) in the UK. CAR magazine tested one in 1966 - that hilarious piece has stayed with me ever since (along with the piece comparing the Ferrari GTO and the Pontiac GTO, written in the style of "The Sot-Weed Factor"!)

Do any US Catters know why GM put DRUM brakes on the thing though? Seems to be a fit of absence of mind, considering the substantial power output, and the amount of money spent developing the front wheel drive/auto box/drivetrain etc.

I notice they fitted disk brakes PDQ - did a lawyer buy a Mk 1 and drive it through his garage wall? (Shades of "Ferris Bueller's Day Off", on TV last night - ouch!)

Subject: RE: BS: Oldsmobile Toronado
From: catspaw49
Date: 30 Jun 11 - 08:04 AM

Drum brakes were still being used pretty much across the board in Detroit and GM was probably not too hot to add on something that would cost them extra. Olds had gone radical enough with the Toronado as far as they were concerned.

Let's remember this was Detroit and not Stuttgart..............

Spaw

Subject: RE: BS: Oldsmobile Toronado
From: Bobert
Date: 30 Jun 11 - 08:04 AM

GM hasn't always had the brightest ides...

The Vega had an aluminum head and cast iron block that never saw eye to eye...

The Chevette was really a car... Not sure what it was...

The first 5.7 diesels were junk...

Don't forget the Citation with all of its transmission problems...

The Fiero looked nice but didn't last too long... Are any still left actually running....

I could go on and on...

B~

Subject: RE: BS: Oldsmobile Toronado
From: Richard Bridge
Date: 30 Jun 11 - 08:12 AM

I thought they looked the biz!

There is a Fiero in the garden of a large house down the road from me here in Kent UK - but it has not moved for some time. And there is another house with some large American 60s/70s tanks parked in the garden.

Am I not right that the first Thunderbirds had tiny drum brakes that would stop them about one and a half times from 90? I seem to remember a review pointing out that the radio with a special channel for a national emergency was one thing but that the driver was in view of the brakes more likely to be concerned with a local emergency.

Subject: RE: BS: Oldsmobile Toronado
From: Bobert
Date: 30 Jun 11 - 08:46 AM

Yes, the early T-Birds (1955 was the first year for them) had drum brakes... I don't believe that Ford used disc brakes until the mid 60s... I recall that the '66 Mustang GT had a little round emblem on the brake pedal that read "disc brakes" so I'm thinking it was around '66 that Ford started using them on their cars...

B~

Subject: RE: BS: Oldsmobile Toronado
From: Jack the Sailor
Date: 30 Jun 11 - 09:02 AM

Bobby driving.

Subject: RE: BS: Oldsmobile Toronado
From: kendall
Date: 30 Jun 11 - 09:17 AM

The Toronado was radical? Cord had front wheel drive n 1938.

Subject: RE: BS: Oldsmobile Toronado
From: catspaw49
Date: 30 Jun 11 - 09:28 AM

So what Kendall? The Chrysler Airflow was before its time as was the Tucker. Point is that for a car to be a mass production unit that was expected to sell in quantity, the Toronado was a bit out at the edge from several standpoints starting with the styling.

Bobertz.....I have a 67 T-Bird in the barn with the "disc brake" logo on the pedal.   Detroit didn't get into the disc brake fully til 73-75 and then of course it was only on the front.


Spaw

Subject: RE: BS: Oldsmobile Toronado
From: Ed T
Date: 30 Jun 11 - 09:30 AM

66 Toronado

Panoramic rear window

78



odd one

Subject: RE: BS: Oldsmobile Toronado
From: Ed T
Date: 30 Jun 11 - 09:34 AM

Some History

Subject: RE: BS: Oldsmobile Toronado
From: JohnInKansas
Date: 30 Jun 11 - 10:41 AM

A friend at the office bought a "first year Toronodo."

Recollection is that he had the carburetor rebuilt at least four times the first year.

That was in Milwaukee, where some of the gas suppliers were putting "winter additives" in the gas to improve cold starting at low temperatures, and the additives ate all the "rubber" out of the fuel system.

When somobody finally clued him in, he switched gas brands a couple of times, and once he found a brand too cheap to put any fancy stuff in theirs he had no further trouble that I heard of (or maybe summer just got there and they all dropped the additives?).

His problems did provide a sort of lesson for those advocating rapid switch to "high ethanol" fuels. Changing the chemistry by too much does require changes in the engines.

John

Subject: RE: BS: Oldsmobile Toronado
From: Sawzaw
Date: 30 Jun 11 - 12:33 PM

3 cheers for the Corvair!

Subject: RE: BS: Oldsmobile Toronado
From: Richard Bridge
Date: 30 Jun 11 - 12:55 PM

Volkswagen suspension with a bloody great flat 6 behind it? What was Dr Porsche's name for it? Wissenschaft?

Subject: RE: BS: Oldsmobile Toronado
From: pdq
Date: 30 Jun 11 - 01:03 PM

Most US makers of vans and pickup trucks did not make front discs standard until the 1971 model year. Some did not make add them to four wheel drive vehicles for another two to three years. The Toronado was a very ambitious effort. It was very quiet, handled well, got reasonable gas milage (due to high gearing, mostly) and was radical looking.

Subject: RE: BS: Oldsmobile Toronado
From: frogprince
Date: 30 Jun 11 - 01:05 PM

Always loved the first Toro body style. I always heard that the primary problem with the earlier Cord or other FWDs was that without constant velocity joints they had a double-header problem of torque steer and rapid joint wear.

Jay Leno had a first-style Toronado body put together with rear wheel drive and 1200 horsepower; what he intends to do with the 1200 horsepower is beyond me.

I drove one of the first Toros just a little around Chicago, out on errands for my employer of the time. That was just at in-town speeds, so not a great chance to "feel out" the car. My only caveat was that the turning radius felt like turning the Queen Mary.

Subject: RE: BS: Oldsmobile Toronado
From: GUEST,kendall
Date: 30 Jun 11 - 04:47 PM

Didn't it also have problems with the belt drive?

Subject: RE: BS: Oldsmobile Toronado
From: Jack the Sailor
Date: 30 Jun 11 - 05:56 PM

Jay Leno had a first-style Toronado body put together with rear wheel drive and 1200 horsepower; what he intends to do with the 1200 horsepower is beyond me.

If it is a convertible it is to overcome the wind resistance of his chin.

Subject: RE: BS: Oldsmobile Toronado
From: GUEST,kendall
Date: 30 Jun 11 - 07:36 PM

Sawzaw, did you know that the man Laura Bush killed when she ran that stop sign was driving a Corvair?

Subject: RE: BS: Oldsmobile Toronado
From: Jack the Sailor
Date: 30 Jun 11 - 08:37 PM

Jerreri

Subject: RE: BS: Oldsmobile Toronado
From: Bobert
Date: 30 Jun 11 - 09:18 PM

Well, there may be only one thing in the world that Sawz and I agree on that is the Corvair... I owned one until about 8 years ago... 1966 with a 110 hp... Great car... Probably the only Corvair in the entire country in 2000 with a Nader/2000 bumper sticker... Remember Nader's "Unsafe at Any Speed" about the 'vairs???

BS...

That car would fly and handle like a dream...

B~

Subject: RE: BS: Oldsmobile Toronado
From: EBarnacle
Date: 30 Jun 11 - 10:38 PM

I have always found it interesting that Nader felt qualified to judge things for which he was eminently unqualified, like the Corvair.

As far as FWD, there was one participating in the first Indy 500.

Citroen had them in the 30's.

Subject: RE: BS: Oldsmobile Toronado
From: Richard Bridge
Date: 30 Jun 11 - 10:43 PM

I'm not sure when the change was but early Corvairs had a simple swing axle rear suspension but later ones (certainly the sort of coupe version)what was it called, the Monza SS or something like that?) had something a lot cleverer.   If my memory serves me it was sort of a semi-trailing layout with a lower wishbone, said to be inspired by Jaguar but more like the latest Superbeetles (the 1303S, I think). In consequence in stead of having swing axle tuckunder, under provocation it would have behaved as if negative camber was increasing on the inside rear wheel. A 30/70 weight distribution (or something like that) is still not clever for joe public though. The Burney Streamline (which, along with the Maybach Zeppelin beat Chrysler to "Airflow" concepts by a year or more) and the Tatras which Hitler said killed more of his officers than the Russian army - demonstrated that. The Tatra at least also had, in the early days, swing axle rear suspension although I think that changed by the 603 model and used rear mounted aircooled engines. They moved the engine forward a bit to help weight distribution in the 603, too and the 613 looks really cool even today.

Subject: RE: BS: Oldsmobile Toronado
From: number 6
Date: 30 Jun 11 - 11:07 PM

Only on the Madcat will hear praise for the Corvair .... Geeesh ..... just waiting for someone to fondly reminisce about the design and mechanics of the AMC Pacer. Which btw, is probably one of the ugliest cars along with the Toronado and the 1979 T-Bird that ever came out of Detroit .... or where ever the Pacer was spawned from.

biLL .. :-)

Subject: RE: BS: Oldsmobile Toronado
From: Bobert
Date: 30 Jun 11 - 11:09 PM

Mine was a '66, Richard... Yes, trailing arms (wishbone)...

As fir the early VWs, yeah, the outside rear would tuck in a heart beat... I had a rigged wishbone on my Karmann Ghia race car + a rear stabilzer (rear trailing arm to rear trailing arm...)... Great set up for rights and lefts (road courses)...

B~

Subject: RE: BS: Oldsmobile Toronado
From: Sawzaw
Date: 30 Jun 11 - 11:28 PM

When I was in the TV repair business, back when TV's could be repaired, I actually owned a Corvan.

Not a bad vehicle. I also worked in a body shop later in life and we repaired a Corvair that knocked down a cinder block wall.

All of the damage was superficial. It was a sturdy car, torpedoed by Ralph "unsafe at any speed" Nader.

I ain't saying that Nader was wrong on everything but I think he was wrong about the Corvair which I believe to be GM's first attempt to fight back at the imported auto market.

So what did he accomplish except to sell more VW's which were probably less safe than the Corvair?

Subject: RE: BS: Oldsmobile Toronado
From: number 6
Date: 01 Jul 11 - 12:48 AM

Corvairs .... I remember my father buying one for my 2 older sisters to drive back and forth to university ... it was a brand new 1961 ... hell, it only lasted 1 year ... 1 Canadian winter just turned it into an absolute rust bucket .... it had to be towed to the wreckers ... he went out and bought them a VW Beetle ... a 1962 .... my oldest sister kept that up until 1969 with out any major problems .... and it probably had no more than 4 oil changes in that period of time.

biLL

Subject: RE: BS: Oldsmobile Toronado
From: John on the Sunset Coast
Date: 01 Jul 11 - 01:02 AM

The missus had a Corvair at the time we got married. I don't recall the model year, but it was an early flat front model. For her it was fine as she didn't drive the freeway, so rarely drove over 35 - 40 mph. I had to put a bag of salt (50 lbs as I recall) in the trunk which was in the front to give the dang thing some stability at highway speed. Then, of course, I had to reposition the fanbelt which escaped its L-shaped path frequently. Was I glad to get rid of that piece of dreck...of course had I known it would become a collectors item, but who knew!

Subject: RE: BS: Oldsmobile Toronado
From: kendall
Date: 01 Jul 11 - 08:04 AM

The Corvair rode like a baby carriage.

Subject: RE: BS: Oldsmobile Toronado
From: Richard Bridge
Date: 01 Jul 11 - 08:41 AM

Is that good or bad?

Subject: RE: BS: Oldsmobile Toronado
From: Bobert
Date: 01 Jul 11 - 08:57 AM

Well, yeah, the 'Vairs did under steer (plow) a bit but for normal driving it wasn't much of a problem... I could drive mind (sans the 2 80 pound bags of Sacrete) at 75 mph on the interstate and no problems...
I did autocross the car a few times and the Sacrete came in handy but still not quite enough... I had a buddy who took his 'Vair and stuffed a 350 Chevy engine in where the backseat used to be, turned the trans around, swapped the gear carrier from right to left so it would have 4 forward gears rather than 4 reverse gear... He auto crossed this car with lower profile tires on the front which made it handle just right for that power...

Speaking of VWs and 'Vairs... I bought a basket case 66 VW with a 'Vair engine and an adapter kit all in pieces and didn't realize that the 'Vair engine turned backwards... Took me a couple weekends to get it put together and running only to find I did indeed have 4 reverse gears... Purdy embarrassin'... Took several weekends to take it all apart and swap the gear carrier in the transaxle... By then I had had it and sold it to buy some other project car???

B~

Subject: RE: BS: Oldsmobile Toronado
From: Richard Bridge
Date: 01 Jul 11 - 12:54 PM

Handy for the Italian army

Subject: RE: BS: Oldsmobile Toronado
From: EBarnacle
Date: 01 Jul 11 - 01:10 PM

Ahh, the turbo Corsa. Several were used for Ice Racing back in the 70's in the NEIRA. I guess they were fairly acceptable if people were willin to race them and beat Porsches.

Subject: RE: BS: Oldsmobile Toronado
From: pdq
Date: 01 Jul 11 - 02:09 PM

A co-worker bought a 180 HP turbocharged version a number of years after it was made and couldn't believe how much power it had when the turbocharger was near full boost.

He had it over 110 mph when a fan belt blew up. I'm not sure it hurt the engine but I think the belt took out the power steering. Made a big noise,too.

Seems the original belt was extremely solid construction, but regular mechanics tended to replace it with standard items from their favorite auto parts store.

The turbocharged version of 1965 was doomed by emmission controls that were just coming in that year, but Nader crusade did a lot of damage too.

Subject: RE: BS: Oldsmobile Toronado
From: Bobert
Date: 01 Jul 11 - 03:43 PM

The turbos had major problems with the veins in the impeller housing... Ran too hot and ate turbos on a regular basis... Lotta folks just bought after-market 4 barrel intakes and ran 650 cfm carbs and lived with about 140 HP... That was plenty... My Corsa was 110 hp and that was fine for auto crossing where too much power can be a problem...

My VW Karmann Ghia race car, for instance, running a mild 1835 cc engine with twin Webers would routinely show up Vettes and Porsches on the shorter courses...

BTW, I do have a pic somewhere of the back of my 'Vair with the Nader/2000 bumper sticker... Most folks never got it... lol...

B~

Subject: RE: BS: Oldsmobile Toronado
From: olddude
Date: 01 Jul 11 - 04:21 PM

Dear Spaw, can I have your T-Bird LOL

Subject: RE: BS: Oldsmobile Toronado
From: Sawzaw
Date: 01 Jul 11 - 07:33 PM

The Corvair that plowed through the cinder block wall had two little beer keg looking weights bolted inside the front trunk.

Getting back to the Toros, I was sort of a drag race watcher back then and they loved to stuff two full blown engines, one in front and back for the drags. Like the Hurst Hairy Olds.

They also took Vair and Econoline pickups, turned them around with the cab in the rear and dropped a full blown engine in the pickup box. Whoooeee! They called them backup pickups.

Subject: RE: BS: Oldsmobile Toronado
From: Bobert
Date: 01 Jul 11 - 07:40 PM

Why stop at two... Tommy Ivo's had four...

Subject: RE: BS: Oldsmobile Toronado
From: Richard Bridge
Date: 01 Jul 11 - 09:36 PM

Reverting to the Toronado, has there yet been a front-wheel drive car that in standard form deposits (or attempts to deposit) more power through the front wheels?

Subject: RE: BS: Oldsmobile Toronado
From: frogprince
Date: 01 Jul 11 - 10:24 PM

Am I the only one who can't make any sense of Richard Bridge's question?

Subject: RE: BS: Oldsmobile Toronado
From: Bobert
Date: 01 Jul 11 - 10:40 PM

Richard, Richard, Richard???

Google up Honda "Drag Cars" and check out what these kids are getting ouuta these engines... It's amazing...

I mean, this ain't our grandfathers' Oldsmobile or ours either...

Makes ya' feel old when ya got kids and grandkids takin' Honda Civics and turning 6's in the 1/8th mile... That is bookin'... Yeah, there is a lot less weight but there's some balls, too...

B~

Subject: RE: BS: Oldsmobile Toronado
From: Richard Bridge
Date: 02 Jul 11 - 07:50 PM

Standard?

Subject: RE: BS: Oldsmobile Toronado
From: John on the Sunset Coast
Date: 03 Jul 11 - 11:31 AM

Tommy Ivo. Boy that's a name I haven't heard in over forty years. I remember him both as kid actor and as a dragster/racer. What's he up to today, one wonders.

Subject: RE: BS: Oldsmobile Toronado
From: kendall
Date: 03 Jul 11 - 01:39 PM

Packard also built a front wheel drive prototype in 1934.

Subject: RE: BS: Oldsmobile Toronado
From: Richard Bridge
Date: 03 Jul 11 - 02:09 PM

Surely the Cugnot was front wheel drive - in about 1770 (sic)

Subject: RE: BS: Oldsmobile Toronado
From: EBarnacle
Date: 03 Jul 11 - 02:11 PM

Actually, the Citroen Traction Avant of the 30's was the first commercially successful front wheel drive vehicle.

Subject: RE: BS: Oldsmobile Toronado
From: Edthefolkie
Date: 03 Jul 11 - 06:43 PM

Thanks all for your replies!