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Life of Burl Ives

DigiTrad:
LOLLIPOP TREE
THE LITTLE WHITE DUCK


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Art Thieme 21 Aug 09 - 11:34 AM
The Sandman 21 Aug 09 - 11:49 AM
Arkie 21 Aug 09 - 12:22 PM
The Sandman 21 Aug 09 - 12:25 PM
Don Firth 21 Aug 09 - 12:41 PM
The Sandman 21 Aug 09 - 01:11 PM
MGM·Lion 21 Aug 09 - 01:30 PM
The Sandman 21 Aug 09 - 02:01 PM
Arkie 21 Aug 09 - 02:17 PM
The Sandman 21 Aug 09 - 02:21 PM
GUEST,pattyClink 21 Aug 09 - 02:32 PM
MissouriMud 21 Aug 09 - 02:58 PM
The Sandman 21 Aug 09 - 03:40 PM
Don Firth 21 Aug 09 - 04:12 PM
Arkie 21 Aug 09 - 05:11 PM
MissouriMud 21 Aug 09 - 05:32 PM
Skivee 21 Aug 09 - 05:58 PM
Don Firth 21 Aug 09 - 06:35 PM
The Sandman 21 Aug 09 - 08:55 PM
GUEST,Jack Warshaw 20 Nov 09 - 01:49 PM
GUEST,The Folk E 20 Nov 09 - 03:23 PM
Stringsinger 20 Nov 09 - 03:49 PM
Deckman 20 Nov 09 - 04:35 PM
Stilly River Sage 20 Nov 09 - 05:53 PM
Joe Offer 20 Nov 09 - 05:54 PM
Don Firth 20 Nov 09 - 08:51 PM
Little Hawk 20 Nov 09 - 11:31 PM
GUEST,Katharine Bruce in Winnipeg 14 Jan 11 - 01:08 PM
voyager 14 Jan 11 - 03:25 PM
Charley Noble 14 Jan 11 - 03:39 PM
GUEST,WireHarp 14 Jan 11 - 04:24 PM
GUEST,Irish Guest 15 Jan 11 - 07:51 AM
voyager 15 Jan 11 - 10:40 AM
Charley Noble 15 Jan 11 - 10:54 AM
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Charley Noble 18 Jan 11 - 09:22 PM
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Subject: RE: Life of Burl Ives
From: Art Thieme
Date: 21 Aug 09 - 11:34 AM

I first became a fan of Mr. Ives when I heard that been caught in a girl's dorm, and after hours, at Eastern Illinois University---for which he was summarily tossed out of that school.

Art Thieme
Peru, Illinois


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Subject: RE: Life of Burl Ives
From: The Sandman
Date: 21 Aug 09 - 11:49 AM

but was he any more important than Bascam Lunsford.
ives testifying made it extremely difficult for performers like Seeger and others to popularise the music,so he hardly needs thanking for that.
if Ives hadnt testified,others would have been free to popularise the music,IVES was looking after his own interests,and ensuring other artists did not get work.


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Subject: RE: Life of Burl Ives
From: Arkie
Date: 21 Aug 09 - 12:22 PM

Lunsford certainly was an important figure in drawing interest to folk music. Ives had radio and a recording contract with a major label available and reached a wider audience than Lunsford. But I do not know why one needs to argue which was more significant. Both made great contributions toward continuing interest in folk music in different ways when its natural channels were fading.

Ives testimony before HUAC is a dark spot on a valuable legacy,and while everyone in this forum would like to think they would have chosen a higher path these things are not known until placed in the same situation. People's responses are generally the result of many factors and in some cases people regret their actions and pay a dear price for their weakness. I have tried to live an honorable and responsible life but there are things I wish I could take back and actions and words I will always regret. I could not say I am a better person than Mr. Ives because fewer people know about my indiscretion or thoughtlessness.


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Subject: RE: Life of Burl Ives
From: The Sandman
Date: 21 Aug 09 - 12:25 PM

ok Arkie,
but the net result of Ives stool pigeoning whether intentional or otherwise,was that Seeger and others didnt get a chance to popularise the music but Ives did.


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Subject: RE: Life of Burl Ives
From: Don Firth
Date: 21 Aug 09 - 12:41 PM

". . . Ives was looking after his own interests, and ensuring other artists did not get work."

Since it's impossible to really know someone's motivations (especially for something that happened around sixty years ago), I don't think one can say that with any certainty. It's my understanding that Burl Ives was one of the first entertainers that HUAC called to testify. He may very well have been a bit intimidated (how would you feel if you were hauled up in front of a Congressional committee and interrogated?) and did not yet know how others (such as Seeger) were going to respond. Had he testified after Seeger and had his example to go on, he may very well have told the committee to take it and stuff it. About all one can honestly make of that was that Seeger was more politically aware and concerned, and on that basis, had a bit more steel in his spine than Ives did.

Monday morning quarterbacking is easy, especially if the Monday in question was six decades ago. I don't know what was in Burl Ives' mind at the time and neither does anyone else. Hence, although I deplore the fact that he cooperated with the committee, I reserve judgment as to Ives' motives and character.

Don Firth


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Subject: RE: Life of Burl Ives
From: The Sandman
Date: 21 Aug 09 - 01:11 PM

yes, but the net result was,IVES,got achance to popularise the music, others because of his testifying did not,therefore we should be careful in praising him for popularising the music.
he was chosen because he had testified,others were not chosen because they were named by him,those are FACTS.


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Subject: RE: Life of Burl Ives
From: MGM·Lion
Date: 21 Aug 09 - 01:30 PM

Bascom Lunsford, respected and admired and influential as he was in USA, in no way comparable to Burl Ives for public profile and as a populariser. He is no sort of name to conjure with here in the UK, and refs to him do not have any impact here.


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Subject: RE: Life of Burl Ives
From: The Sandman
Date: 21 Aug 09 - 02:01 PM

MGM ,but that does not make his work less important.
I would now rather listen to Lunsfords collections than some of IVES Syrup
as I keep trying to say,Ives became a populariser,because of his actions,other people could not work, Ives could,why?because he testified.
IVES was talented,but he had opportunities denied to others, WHY?
we should remember all the people who were denied work because of IVES and others,remember Robeson and Seeger.
WHY did the real villans the AMERICAN GOVERNMENT feel it was necessary to have awitch hunt?can I have an answer please?


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Subject: RE: Life of Burl Ives
From: Arkie
Date: 21 Aug 09 - 02:17 PM

I do not know what type of documentation exists for Ive's motives in his testimony before HUAC. Nor do I have any documentation regarding who was on the HUAC list but I would suspect that if Ives were called to testify, that HUAC already had a list of his associates and that anyone he named would eventually be called to testify whether or not they were named by Ives. My memory is a bit foggy about the McCarthy years but I think that Burl Ives was already well known and had been broadcasting on radio before his testimony. There is no doubt that Pete Seeger's music career suffered due to McCarthy and I do admire his stand before that terrible committee. And speaking of terrible, the country eventually came to its sense and McCarthy was censured. Now here in the 21st century that same mentality has surfaced again and gone mainstream. Witness Fox news.


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Subject: RE: Life of Burl Ives
From: The Sandman
Date: 21 Aug 09 - 02:21 PM

pete seegers career suffered is that not an understatement.
how many years was it?


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Subject: RE: Life of Burl Ives
From: GUEST,pattyClink
Date: 21 Aug 09 - 02:32 PM

We look back through our perfect rearview mirror to see how people were blacklisted for decades. Did the people who testified know at the time that this would happen?


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Subject: RE: Life of Burl Ives
From: MissouriMud
Date: 21 Aug 09 - 02:58 PM

Burl Ives was the first professional folk music influence in my life in the early and mid fifties.   Due to the blacklisting he may have been the only commercially available option at the time. My parents (good republicans) bought a 10 inch 78 rpm record of his ballads in the early 50's which I basically memorized. Later as I entered the Folk Explosion of the late 50's early 60's his Song Book was one of my basic references, although I considered him pretty passé as a folk singer by then - more of a pop/tv/movie personality.   The simplicity of his songs and guitar style made his songs very approachable, although I always thought his voice was a bit to syrupy for "folk" (probably because my own wasn't).   

With respect to his testimony and naming names during the hearings in 1952 I must confess to being confused.   It is well established that he cooperated sufficiently with the SISS (as best I can tell he never testified in front of the HUAC) to have his own blacklisting lifted. However, I am unclear exactly how far he went.

I have yet to find a transcript of or even a detailed account of his testimony on the web, although it appears the Government Printing Office published it.   The second hand references on the web, which are numerous, are widely divergent with some saying that he didn't name Pete Seeger or the Weavers, and some saying he did name at least Seeger along with several others (possibly hundreds).   This should be a matter of record.   It is one thing to accuse him of not being courageous (as some were) in order to save his economic skin.   However before I tar him for actually naming names and ruining individuals' livelihoods, I'd like to see an authoritative source such as an actual transcript or something that quotes extensively from it. Does anyone have a web, or other readily available, reference for such a source?


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Subject: RE: Life of Burl Ives
From: The Sandman
Date: 21 Aug 09 - 03:40 PM

from what I have read,IVES, later ,regretted what he did,and did a performance with Seeger
I thought I read that Seeger had in the fifties referred to him as that stool pigeon.Seeger would hardly have done so if Ives had not named names
Ives was a talented musican, singer, actor.why dont you google pete seeger, ives and HUAC.


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Subject: RE: Life of Burl Ives
From: Don Firth
Date: 21 Aug 09 - 04:12 PM

From Wikipedia:
In 1940 Ives began his own radio show, titled The Wayfaring Stranger after one of his ballads. The show was very popular. In the 1940s he popularized several traditional folk songs, such as Lavender Blue (his first hit, a folk song from the 17th century), Foggy Foggy Dew (an English/Irish folk song), Blue Tail Fly (an old Civil War tune) and Big Rock Candy Mountain (an old hobo ditty).

In early 1942 Ives was drafted by the military and spent time first at Camp Dix, then at Camp Upton, where he joined the cast of Irving Berlin's This Is the Army [It is my understanding that Burl Ives was singing at the Village Vanguard at the time he was drafted and asked Richard Dyer-Bennet to take over for him when he left for the Army -- DF]. When the show went to Hollywood, he was transferred to the Army Air Force. He was discharged honorably, apparently for medical reasons, in September 1943. Between September and December 1943, Ives lived in California with actor Harry Morgan (who would later go on to play Colonel Sherman T. Potter on M*A*S*H). In December 1943, Ives returned to New York City and went to work again for CBS radio for $100 a week.

On December 6, 1945, Ives married 29-year-old script writer Helen Peck Ehrlich.[10] The next year, Ives was cast as a singing cowboy in the film Smoky. Their son (Alexander) was born in 1949.
* * * *
Ives was identified in the infamous 1950 pamphlet "Red Channels" and blacklisted as an entertainer with supposed Communist ties. In 1952, he cooperated with the House Unamerican Activities Committee, or HUAC, and volunteered to testify. He stated that he was not a member of the Communist Party and had attended various union meetings with fellow folk singer Pete Seeger in order to simply stay in touch with working folk. He stated: "You know who my friends are;   you will have to ask THEM if they are Communists."
####

As to the importance of Burl Ives as an initiator of the revival of interest in folk music in the United States:

Having lived through that period myself (in fact, that's when I became actively interested in folk music), I have a bit of perspective on it. Indeed, Burl Ives was probably the first singer of folk songs that most city people heard. When I was in my very early 'teens, I often listened to his radio program, The Wayfaring Stranger in the 1940s (Sunday afternoons as I recall), on which he talked about particular aspects of American history (e.g., the building of the Erie Canal) and sang songs related to them.

Although she faded into obscurity as interest in folk music increased in the late 1950s, if you were to ask most people if they could name a female folk singer, the name you probably would have heard was Susan Reed. She appeared in a movie in 1948 (Glamour Girl—grade B movie at best, but lots of good singing by Susan), and was on both radio and television. Lovely, sweet voice accompanied by Irish harp or zither. The whole folk revival seemed to pass her by, and the last I heard, she was running an antique shop on Long Island.

BIG influence around the turn of the decade (end of the Forties, beginning of the Fifties) were The Weavers. The first time I heard them was on juke boxes about the time I graduated from high school. "Goodnight Irene," "On Top of Old Smoky," "Wimoweh," "The Frozen Logger," and others—before they suddenly disappeared, to re-emerge a few years later in their spectacularly successful Carnegie Hall concert. But—before they vanished (temporarily), they were on the top of the Hit Parade:   a lot of radio play on pop music stations.

Next big name to arise was Harry Belafonte. Immensely popular. I saw one of his concerts in 1956 in the Denver University football stadium. The place was packed.

My particular active interest was sparked in 1952 by Claire Hess, a young woman I was dating at the time. She had a roommate at the University of Washington's Women's Residence Halls who was from Chicago and who played the banjo and sang a batch of folk songs, some of which she'd learned from her father, and some from Carl Sandburg's "American Songbag." About that time, Claire heard Walt Robertson sing at a party, and was enthralled by the songs he sang. Claire's grandmother gave her her old George Washburn parlor guitar ("Ladies Model" 1898) and a delighted Claire set about teaching herself to play it and began learning songs from her roommate and from John and Sylvia Kolb's paperback, "A Treasury of Folk Songs." I bought a cheap guitar and Claire showed me my first chords.

Then, she and I attended an informal concert by Walt Robertson. I have written about this in detail elsewhere:    CLICKY.   That evening was a definite turning point in my life.

Walt's interest in folk music developed when he was attending Haverford College in Pennsylvania in the late 1940s. He took in the folk festivals at Swarthmore College about a mile and a half down the road, and there he heard—and met—John and Alan Lomax, Lead Belly, Richard Dyer-Bennet, Susan Reed, Pete Seeger, John Jacob Niles, Woody Guthrie, Josh White, Jean Ritchie. . . .

Walt brought his talent and his enthusiasm back to Seattle, and several people caught the bug here. The late Sandy Paton was one. Lesser known names were Dick Landberg, Bob Clark, Mike Reedy, Patti McLaughlin—Claire and me, and many, many others. Bob (Deckman) Nelson took a slightly different route, catching the bug from a fellow named Bill Higley (who knew Haywire Mac McClintock). And just by following our own inclinations, each of us gave the bug to others.

This would have happened with or without Burl Ives.

And I'll bet that a very similar scenario took place in most other American cities at about the same time.

By the time the Kingston Trio came along in 1958, they were "Johnnie-Come-Latelys." Although a lot of people trace their interest in folk music to them, the KT were surfing on a wave that had started long before they came along.

Burl Ives was one of the first mass media (radio) singers of folk songs that most Americans had heard, or heard of, but—was he primarily responsible for the folk music revival in the United States? I don't think so. As I just said, I'm sure it would have happened anyway.

Besides, as the folk music revival got under way in the U. S. in the Fifties, he tended to move away from folk music and sing a lot of lightweight stuff like "Little White Duck," "Little Bitty Tear," and "Rudolph, the Red-Nosed Reindeer." He became better known as an actor. And a damned fine one at that!

Don Firth


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Subject: RE: Life of Burl Ives
From: Arkie
Date: 21 Aug 09 - 05:11 PM

Don thanks for that post. When I stop to think about it, while stories abound about Burl Ives testimony I have yet to see any documentation of his actual statement. What was the source of the Ives' quotation you provided above?

I would agree that Ives influence on the revival of interest in folk music was marginal at best. What he did do is provide a source for folk music at a time when there were few others singing folk songs on major media. He influenced others, such as me, to learn guitar and among the first songs I learned were songs from Burl Ives Wayfaring Stranger Lp and his songbook. When the revival finally began, I recognized that I was hearing music related to that which I had heard from Burl Ives. I had far less interest in his more commercial phase but did admire him as an actor.


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Subject: RE: Life of Burl Ives
From: MissouriMud
Date: 21 Aug 09 - 05:32 PM

Good Soldier - Thanks,
I have done that, (and it wasnt the HUAC unless the formal citations to his testimony are wrong, it was the SISS) - I get the citations on the web but I dont get to the transcript itself - just the mish mash of second hand statements (repeated and perpetuated via sites like Wikipedia) that I mentioned in my prior post, including at least one that says he didnt name Seeger.   I too question that comment in light of so many contrary statements, but frankly I don't believe much of what I read on the internet, particularly if there is an actual indisputable source of this material - ie the transcript. I love Pete Seeger- but I'm not willing to accept everything Pete or anyone else says as gospel. I'd like to see what Burl testified to and make up my own mind about how bad it was.

Don - I appreciate the Wikipedia reference, which I had already seen. I dont have 100% confidence in Wikipedia as a source. It has a nice footnote cite to the transcript but does not directly quote the transcript. There are contrary views on the web - the musicianguide site bio of Burl claims he didn't finger Pete. Not that I place much credence in that.
http://www.musicianguide.com/biographies/1608000249/Burl-Ives.html#ixzz0Or0pZQT8

Being a lawyer I kind of like to see the exact testimony, not someone interpretation of it. I seem to recall a few years ago someone here saying that they had actually seen the transcript. I just want to read it myself - or at least have the "naming names" part quoted. It would seem to be a fairly simple thing.


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Subject: RE: Life of Burl Ives
From: Skivee
Date: 21 Aug 09 - 05:58 PM

**Correcting my mistake**
According to the Library of Congress, it was the Senate Internal Security Subcommittee that he testified before, Not HUAC. Though they were cut from the same cloth, they were different entities.
I regret the inaccuracy.


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Subject: RE: Life of Burl Ives
From: Don Firth
Date: 21 Aug 09 - 06:35 PM

Yes, the (alleged) quote from Burl Ives about his not naming names ("You know who my friends are. You will have to ask them if they are Communists.") came from the Wikipedia entry.

I, too, do not take Wikipedia as a completely authoritative source, especially in controversial matters, but at least it purports to be a direct quote. That's more than anything else I've read. Or heard. I would have to have some verification before I would accept it as true—just as I would like some verification from those who simply accuse Ives of "ratting on his friends for selfish motives." That seems rather simplistic, speculative, and not just a little mean-spirited.

If I don't know for certain, rather than condemning someone out of hand for something they supposedly did (remembering that as the fish story gets told again and again, the eight-inch trout fairly quickly turns into Moby Dick), I'd rather give them the benefit of the doubt.

Don Firth


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Subject: RE: Life of Burl Ives
From: The Sandman
Date: 21 Aug 09 - 08:55 PM

the American government,are the people who must really take the blame,if they had not pressurised Ives,he would not have testified.


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Subject: RE: Life of Burl Ives
From: GUEST,Jack Warshaw
Date: 20 Nov 09 - 01:49 PM

I instinctively disliked Ives' sweet sanitised versions of good songs and deplored the obvious avoidance of anything socially or politically controversial in his repertoire. If he was a HUAC stool pigeon in 1952 any rationalisation doesn't matter, only the lasting harm to his colleagues. But if all embracing Pete decided to overlook the deed in 1993, well that counts for much in my book.
Jack Warshaw


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Subject: RE: Life of Burl Ives
From: GUEST,The Folk E
Date: 20 Nov 09 - 03:23 PM

"I instinctively disliked Ives' sweet sanitised versions of good songs and deplored the obvious avoidance of anything socially or politically controversial in his repertoire."

And I deplore that for you it's not about the music but your own agendas. Believe me, it's this kind of attitude that has reduced the status of folk music.


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Subject: RE: Life of Burl Ives
From: Stringsinger
Date: 20 Nov 09 - 03:49 PM

One of Burl's first movies was called "Smoky". It was about a horse (on top of)......
I was sold on him a performer then.

I think Ives was gullible and believed the HUAC as did Josh White also. Josh probably had his life threatened. A black man at that time was not treated fairly. Both named names.

Ives was a skilled and trained singer, something not usually accepted in the "folkie" crowd.
The "folkies" in the Fifties said the same derogatory thing about the singing of Richard Dyer-Bennet and joked about his rendition of John Henry.

Today, raspy voices and moaning and groaning are in vogue. That's more affected.

Aside from his unfortunate appearance before HUAC, Ives made the public conscious
of folk music before the Kingston Trio ever thought of doing that.

He was a consummate concert artist.


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Subject: RE: Life of Burl Ives
From: Deckman
Date: 20 Nov 09 - 04:35 PM

I completly agree, Frank.


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Subject: RE: Life of Burl Ives
From: Stilly River Sage
Date: 20 Nov 09 - 05:53 PM

Burl Ives was probably the performer on the first folk albums that were played in our house during my childhood. We kids soaked in the words to songs that Dad was learning, and we soaked up the words to songs on records he was listening to. And since many of the first songs he performed, at least around the house, were from Ives' records or song books, it's all a blur together and I have to say that hearing Ives sing brings a visceral pleasurable response.

It was much later that I realized he was also a very good actor. A nice bonus.

SRS


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Subject: RE: Life of Burl Ives
From: Joe Offer
Date: 20 Nov 09 - 05:54 PM

The Wikipedia article is quite well-documented. For the "You know who my friends are. You will have to ask them if they are Communists." quote, the citation is Testimony of Burl Icle Ives, New York, N.Y. [on May 20, 1952]," Hearings before the Subcommittee to Investigate the Administration of the Internal Security Act and Other Internal Security Laws of the Committee on the Judiciary, United States Senate, Eighty-Second Congress, Second Session on Subversive Infiltration of Radio, Television, and the Entertainment Industry. Washington, D.C.: GPO, 1952. Part 2, pp. 205–228


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Subject: RE: Life of Burl Ives
From: Don Firth
Date: 20 Nov 09 - 08:51 PM

Wow! Thanks, Joe!

Don Firth


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Subject: RE: Life of Burl Ives
From: Little Hawk
Date: 20 Nov 09 - 11:31 PM

Politics is the Great Divider. It sets many good people against each other and destroys many lives and careers.

Music is the Great Uniter.

I will always remember Burl Ives for the tremendous contribution he made to folk music, and not for the political squabbles that arose during the HUAC witchhunts. I will also remember him for the great acting he did in movies like "Cat On a Hot Tin Roof", "The Big Country", and "Let No Man Write My Epitaph".


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Subject: RE: Life of Burl Ives
From: GUEST,Katharine Bruce in Winnipeg
Date: 14 Jan 11 - 01:08 PM

I met Burl Ives in 1966, he was doing a movie in Alberta Canada, staying at Num Tih Jah Lodge, near Lake Louise. I'd just arrived to be a waitress for the summer, my first time away from home, my first job, he was the first person I waited on. NO ONE could have eaten more than he did at that breakfast, no one could have been kinder.
He worked on the movie all day and entertained anyone who wanted to hang out in the evening. When his son, Alex arrived I was invited to go with them exploring. Alex was on his way to England to go to school, he promised to write. I'd love to reconnect with him now and get his story.

If anyone knows where Alex lives now please let me know.


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Subject: RE: Life of Burl Ives
From: voyager
Date: 14 Jan 11 - 03:25 PM

To me 'Big Daddy' in Cat on a Hot Tin Roof is the persistent image of Burl Ives (folk singer, actor, political provocateur) -

"What's that smell in this room? Didn't you notice it, Brick? Didn't you notice the powerful and obnoxious odor of mendacity in this room?"

voyager


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Subject: RE: Life of Burl Ives
From: Charley Noble
Date: 14 Jan 11 - 03:39 PM

Here's a link to a Life Magazine (July 2, 1945, p. 82) photo essay of Burl Ives' farewell party to New York City aboard his houseboat "Water Gypsy": click here for website

The link will take you to a website you can find article above by searching for "Burl Ives."

Looked like quite a party.

Cheerily,
Charley Noble


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Subject: RE: Life of Burl Ives
From: GUEST,WireHarp
Date: 14 Jan 11 - 04:24 PM

How could all this discussion take place without a single mention of the epic "Bermuda Depths"???? After all he IS done in by a giant
turtle.


RWM


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Subject: RE: Life of Burl Ives
From: GUEST,Irish Guest
Date: 15 Jan 11 - 07:51 AM

It was marvellous to read all this lore concerning Burl Ives, a great favourite and influence since I saw/heard him in Cork many, many years ago.
I copied his LP of Irish songs to Cassette and still have it. I am half afraid to convert it to CD in case something goes wrong :)


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Subject: RE: Life of Burl Ives
From: voyager
Date: 15 Jan 11 - 10:40 AM

Burl Ives - Water Gypsy Party (Life Magazine July, 1945)


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Subject: RE: Life of Burl Ives
From: Charley Noble
Date: 15 Jan 11 - 10:54 AM

Yoyager-

Thanks for posting the direct link above to Burl's incredible houseboat party. I'm not sure what happened to my link but it certainly didn't take folks there directly.

Burl certainly had a great time singing and dancing with his friends, pouring beer on their faces while they were dozing away, or in another case down the pants of one young lady!

Cheerily,
Charley Noble


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Subject: RE: Life of Burl Ives
From: EBarnacle
Date: 15 Jan 11 - 12:07 PM

In addition, his sailboat was a converted navy whaleboat. I remember an article about in in one of [now gone] boating magazines.


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Subject: RE: Life of Burl Ives
From: GUEST,Bob Coltman
Date: 16 Jan 11 - 08:51 AM

Fascinating discussion, with many things I never knew.

It bears reiterating that, with Burl Ives, it was the *songs.* Burl had an instinctive feel for a good song, and drawing on his grandmother's repertoire, his adolescent listening to early country music radio shows, fellow singers, and the work of folklorists, came up with a core repertoire of traditional songs (and a few that were non-traditional) that were a revelation to people living in the 1940s and 50s, most of whom had heard very little of that sort.

It's hard to realize now, but he made tons of songs into folk standards that till then had been barely heard of by the wider US listening public. Lavender Blue. Colorado Trail. Aunt Rhody. Riddle Song. Sourwood Mountain. etc.

To pick an example: Blue Tail Fly, until he began circulating it, was an obscure minstrel-derived song; to the best of my knowledge it was almost completely unknown. He made it an American standard, one of those songs just about anybody could hum, almost as widely familiar in the national heritage as the "songbook songs" like I've Been Workin' On the Railroad or Polly Wolly Doodle.

And he did this for song after song ... 40, 50, 60 of the folksongs now best known. In about ten to fifteen years he took all those obscure songs, known only to folklorists or printed in not widely known books, and built them into a good part of the standard American folksong repertoire.

More: he put folksongs themselves in the limelight at a time when few, other than the traditional people, knew them. Before Burl there was no mass-recognized folksong repertoire to speak of. For the wider public, not reached by the other folksingers nor by the folklorists, he, more than anyone else, created it.

That's his enduring achievement.

Bob


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Subject: RE: Life of Burl Ives
From: Don Firth
Date: 16 Jan 11 - 02:46 PM

Amen to that, Bob!

When I first took up the guitar and started singing folk songs back in 1952, it was hard to avoid singing folk songs that were not already in Burl Ives' repertoire. Some of which I already more or less knew before I got interested in singing them myself.

When I first went to Campus Music and Gallery in Seattle's University District looking for records to learn songs from, the folk music bin was pretty sparse. All 10" LPs. There was one by Pete Seeger (whom I had never heard of before - his "Darling Corey" album on Folkways), one Richard Dyer-Bennet (a high school friend of mine had one of his records - I thought he sounded like an old English minstrel), one Susan Reed (I had heard her on the radio and saw her in a movie in 1948), and three by Burl Ives, with whom I had been familiar since I first heard him on the radio in the mid-1940s.

Despite my limited college student budget, I bought them all.

Don Firth


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Subject: RE: Life of Burl Ives
From: GUEST,Banjer
Date: 17 Jan 11 - 04:50 PM

Woody responded, "He's one angry man!" "What's he so angry about?" he was asked. Woody answered, "He's angry with himself!"

------------------

Don, can you tell me where this quote comes from?


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Subject: RE: Life of Burl Ives
From: Don Firth
Date: 17 Jan 11 - 10:16 PM

Banjer, the quote came from a book entitled "Hoot:   a 25-Year History of the Greenwich Village Music Scene." Mostly quotes about various things by singers and other people involved in the scene, along with plenty of photos. Author is Robbie Wolliver (co-owner of Folk City). Well worth owning if you can find a copy.

Speaking of finding a copy, I looked for mine on my bookshelves so I could check the quote exactly, but I couldn't find it. Packed in a box, I think (I hope!).

If I remember right, it was Oscar Brand talking about Woody Guthrie's visit to Burl Ives.

Don Firth


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Subject: RE: Life of Burl Ives
From: GUEST,Banjer
Date: 18 Jan 11 - 01:36 PM

Thanks Don, I'll look for a copy.


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Subject: RE: Life of Burl Ives
From: Charley Noble
Date: 18 Jan 11 - 09:22 PM

There's an interesting PR photo in one of Guthrie's biographies which shows the two of them hanging out together.

Charley Noble


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Subject: RE: Life of Burl Ives
From: BrooklynJay
Date: 19 Jan 11 - 06:33 AM

Charley, if it's the photo I'm thinking of, it's in Joe Klein's biography in the first section of photos; it was from around 1940 (IIRC) and had them lounging on the ground, with Woody holding a copy of "Hobo News."

And yet, in the book Woody Guthrie Songs, edited by Judy Bell and Nora Guthrie, the photo turns up on p.4 but with Burl Ives cropped out of the picture, the image reversed (Woody certainly did not play a left-handed guitar!) and the "newspaper" PhotoShopped so the printing on it now looks "correct."

A bit revisionist, I think...

Jay


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Subject: RE: Life of Burl Ives
From: GUEST,Desi C
Date: 19 Jan 11 - 08:23 AM

I'm surprised you say he hated Children, where did that come from. I read in Val doonican's recent autobiography that he visited Val's home once, and asked could he go upstairs to say goodnight to Val's two young daughters, a little later Val came up to find him singing Scarlet Ribbons to 2 enthralled little girls. As for being a rebel, I have read he was very unpopular with other musicians for Turning fellow artists in to the McCarthy Communist witchhunt of the 1950! So two very contradictory stories there


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Subject: RE: Life of Burl Ives
From: Charley Noble
Date: 19 Jan 11 - 08:31 AM

Jay-

That was exactly the photo I had in mind and I do appreciate your additional comments. Somewhere in that narrative Woody expressed some disdain for Burl Ives as a man who failed to live up to the spirit of what he was singing about. We all have those moments, and so did Woody.

Charley Noble


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Subject: RE: Life of Burl Ives
From: BrooklynJay
Date: 19 Jan 11 - 02:05 PM

This may be the passage you have in mind. I think the time period would be around 1946, more or less.

From Joe Klein's Woody Guthrie - A Life:

...[T]here was the claustrophobic sense of declining possibilities, the bitter realization that his work was, in all likelihood, doomed to the periphery of the culture...unless he sold out and went commercial like Burl Ives or Josh White, who, he wrote to Moe Asch, were carrying on "strange love affairs" with the bosses. "I have decided long ago that any songs and ballads would not get the hugs and kisses of the capitalist 'experts' simply because I believe that the real folk history of the country finds its center and hub in the fight of the union members against the hired gun thugs of the owners... It's not just a question of you as an artist, selling out and becoming harmless to the owning side. No, you are never actually bought or bribed till they have decided that they can use you in one way or another to rob, to deceive, to blind, to confuse, to misrepresent, or just to harass, worry, bedevil and becloud the path of the militant worker on his long, hard fight from slavery to freedom."


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Subject: RE: Life of Burl Ives
From: Charley Noble
Date: 19 Jan 11 - 04:31 PM

Jay-

That's a good passage. I think the one I'm thinking of mentioned "silk underwear."

I should not be so lazy and should dig out the book myself!

Charley Noble


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Subject: RE: Life of Burl Ives
From: Joe_F
Date: 19 Jan 11 - 06:18 PM

BrooklynJay ("And yet, in the book Woody Guthrie Songs..."): The Soviet Union lives!


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Subject: RE: Life of Burl Ives
From: BrooklynJay
Date: 19 Jan 11 - 08:13 PM

It's been a while since I reread the Klein book - until quite recently. I had forgotten that, for some mysterious reason, my book is a defective factory reject. Thirty pages are missing! (Actually, thirty pages are repeated, with pages missing now because of this duplication.)

Anyway, three early references to Burl Ives are gone because of this.

But, maybe the "silk underwear" comment came from Ed Cray's biography? Though I've read library copies, I don't own a copy of that book so I'm just guessing.

But I'm sure that some knowledgable Mudcatter will ferret out the answer! ;-)

Yeah, someone definitely tinkered with that photo - which is why I will try to read more than one book on a subject if I'm really interested.

Jay


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Subject: RE: Life of Burl Ives
From: Charley Noble
Date: 19 Jan 11 - 08:18 PM

Jay-

You've said enough so that I'll have to dig up the Klein book. I know just where it is.

Cheerily,
Charley Noble


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Subject: RE: Life of Burl Ives
From: Charley Noble
Date: 20 Jan 11 - 07:59 AM

Jay-

Ah, here's the quote from Woody about Ives, Woody Guthrie, by Joe Klein, p. 139:

"Burl sings like he was born in lace drawers."

Cheerily,
Charley Noble


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