Life of Burl Ives

Subject: RE: Life of Burl Ives
From: Stringsinger
Date: 25 Oct 12 - 11:53 AM

Never heard that story about Woody making Ronnie cry, Alan, but I agree with you that Burl had a beautiful voice and I never cared if it was trained. I think too many folkies work hard at sounding like vocal sandpaper. Leadbelly was a fan of Richard Dyer-Bennet.

I don't see how a well trained voice hurt any folk song. I love Jo Stafford's recording of folk songs. I learned "Red Rosy Bush" from her and my former singing partner Guy Carawan when he performed with Miranda Marais's daughter. They sang nicely together.

John Charles Thomas did a version of "The Water Is Wide" and Pete Seeger sort of copied the piano accompaniment, it was so good.

Where is it writ that you have to sound like a scratchy 78 to be musically authentic?

Subject: RE: Life of Burl Ives
From: GUEST,Alan Whittle
Date: 25 Oct 12 - 12:06 PM

Ronnie told the story herself - it was an interview in a programme about Woody that was on over here a few years ago. She said she rexpected and revered Woody as a song writer, but as a man - she didn't like him.

Subject: RE: Life of Burl Ives
From: Don Firth
Date: 25 Oct 12 - 04:19 PM

Richard Dyer-Bennet once made the following statement, with which I wholeheartedly agree:

The value lies inherent in the song, not in the regional mannerisms or colloquialisms. No song is ever harmed by being articulated clearly, on pitch, with sufficient control of phrase and dynamics to make the most of the poetry and melody, and with an instrumental accompaniment designed to enrich the whole effect.

I often watch the Classic Arts Showcase channel on the tube, which is sort of MTV for adults. It shows video clips from concerts by both singers and instrumentalist, scenes from opera and ballet, scenes from old classic movies, and such.

Recently on Classic Arts Showcase, I saw operatic bass-baritone George London do "Lord Randal" as part of a recital. Now, George London had one of THE great voices of all time. And vocally, his rendition of "Lord Randal" was marvelous. BUT--he gave it the full operatic treatment, and it sounded like the last scene in Lucia di Lammermoor, in which Edgardo, dying from a self-inflicted knife wound because he just learned that Lucia, the love of his life is dead, is gasping his last.

Sorry, George. Gawdawful!!

But on the same channel, I recently saw Welsh bass-baritone Bryn Terfyl do "Shenandoah." No hystrionics. He sang it straight, with crisp, clear diction and a marvelously rich voice.

Thanks, Bryn! Full marks!!   

Don Firth

Subject: RE: Life of Burl Ives
From: GUEST
Date: 26 Oct 12 - 01:58 AM

'The value lies inherent in the song, not in the regional mannerisms or colloquialisms.'

Can-t say I totally go along with that. Can you imagine a cut glass accent doing anything except detrsct from the song versions of Ronnie Drew, Lightning Hopkins, Sam Larner......

The accent has a role to play.

Subject: RE: Life of Burl Ives
From: Stringsinger
Date: 26 Oct 12 - 11:56 AM

Regarding "giving the devil his due" my final point about Burl's appearance before the HUAC is that he acknowledged them in an attempt to cooperate with them, even by his comment "ask them" because the them were those who were implicated by his testimony and many lost their careers because of it. Burl should have done what responsible Americans did during that period and take either the Fifth or as Pete did, the First Amendment and not given McCarthy anything. There is no moral defense for Burl's cooperation with that infamous committee.

Subject: RE: Life of Burl Ives
From: GUEST,Big Al Whittle
Date: 26 Oct 12 - 02:06 PM

Artists have always made the deals they have had to.

Look at all the people on this thread who have said The Big Country was magnificent. perhaps Burl wouldn't have got the chance to make that if he hadn't gone along with the HUAC.

Do you think Michelangelo wanted to do business with homophobic bastards like the Catholic church? He wanted to be an artist - he did what he had to.

It wasn't just Robert Johnson that sold his soul at the crossroads. that's the meaning of the metaphor - every artist does.

Only very minor talents keep themselves 'pure'.

Subject: RE: Life of Burl Ives
From: Don Firth
Date: 26 Oct 12 - 02:25 PM

GUEST, re:   accents and dialect.

Richard Dyer-Bennet was cognizant of the need for regional accents and dialect in songs that call for it. He does a creditable Scottish accent in songs like "Bonnie Dundee" and "The Bonnie Earl of Moray," and Irish in "Molly Brannigan" and "The Kerry Recruit" and others. And as far as anything Lightnin' Hopkins did, Dyer-Bennet didn't touch blues. He knew his limitations (which, unfortunately, can't be said for all singers!).

It's a matter of TASTE. And mainly, making sure that the audience can hear the words, which is especially important in ballads, which are songs that tell a story. And for that matter, non-ballad folk songs usually imply a story.

Even when he used accents or sang in dialect, you never had any problem hearing the words Dyer-Bennet was singing.   

I've heard singers in coffee houses and at open mikes who spoke perfectly crisp, clear English go all "mush-mouthed," or put on some kind of indefinite semi-southern accent when they sang—only because it was a folk song. Trying to make out what's happening in a song when the singer is singing like he's got his mouth stuffed with hominy grits is, in a word, phony.

Dave Van Ronk had a voice like a rusty hinge. And Bob Dylan's school mates in Minnesota (when he was still Bob Zimmerman) said that when he was doing rock in high school, he had a smooth, clear voice, similar to Buddy Holly's. But when he got into folk, he did his damnedest to sound like he was eighty years old and had been inhaling coal-dust all his life.

But with Dave Van Ronk (who could really put a song across), and even with Bob Dylan doing his thing, you never had any problem hearing the words!

Taste is important. Even if it IS "just" a folk song. Really!

Don Firth

Subject: RE: Life of Burl Ives
From: Don Firth
Date: 26 Oct 12 - 02:30 PM

In short, Dyer-Bennet is not saying that one should not use "regional mannerisms or colloquialisms." He is saying that the song should be "articulated clearly."

The two are not mutually exclusive.

Don Firth