BS: What do you say when they're dying?

Subject: RE: BS: What do you say when they're dying?
From: Mrrzy
Date: 23 Jul 11 - 10:45 AM

I make sure that at some point I, in so many words, tell them how great it was to have had them in my life, and as appropriate what great adults their kids have become and how that was because of what great parents they were, or what great kids they have and how well prepared they have made them for life, along with how much they have taught me and how happy I am to know whatever it was or know how to do whatever it was. I do not, during this particular speech, tell them how much I'll miss them or ask what I can do for them, both of which are separate speeches, the former later and the latter earlier.

And I do not say that I know they are dying unless they bring it up. I also play a lot of Do you remember the time when, especially if it was one of those things that was bad at the time but makes a great story now. I also ask them to tell me things that happened with them and our mutual friends/relatives when I wasn't there, so I can acquire additional memories of them.

Poor you, and your poor friend. I wish them a good death and you peace with it and your memories.

Subject: RE: BS: What do you say when they're dying?
From: GUEST,999
Date: 23 Jul 11 - 10:11 AM

Years ago when my childhood sweetheart was getting ready to make the trip (bone cancer) I spent as much time as I could with her in the hospital. Whoever said lots of it is about spending time was right, imo.
She died in the hospital, but not before telling her sisters that my daily visits had meant so much to her. Mick's right about wishing for one more day, but if ya just show up and pass the time, you'll get said what needs saying over the hours. I've missed her smile and goodness over the years, but I know we did the best we could as 15 year olds, and sometimes it just don't get better than that.

Subject: RE: BS: What do you say when they're dying?
From: Big Mick
Date: 23 Jul 11 - 10:00 AM

This reminds me of Rick, towards the end. What came to me was that there was no need to do anything other than be what we were, and that is friends. I remember one conversation where I simply told him that I hated this damn disease and that it would take him. But I told him that I wasn't going to let it define our friendship. That friendship was, and is, eternal. So could we just get on with being friends? And we did.

Just pay attention, my friend. Listen for what your friend needs. Never forget that you were friends first, and the essence of that should never change. And then just do what a friend would do when your buddy asks.

And times like this remind us that we do not know the length of days, so enjoy one another, don't let petty squabbles germinate. There will come a time that you will wish you could have just one more day with those you love.

All the best,

Mick

Subject: RE: BS: What do you say when they're dying?
From: Jack the Sailor
Date: 23 Jul 11 - 09:15 AM

Thanks for sharing that Gnu.

Reggie is lucky to have you as a friend.

Subject: RE: BS: What do you say when they're dying?
From: Crowhugger
Date: 23 Jul 11 - 09:05 AM

What a lot of great advice. Wise people. Trust your instincts, Gnu, and like everyone has said, be there and speak your truth with love.

It's different when you're used to working alongside someone and now he barely has the energy to sit and stand. A change in how we express friendship is one of the hardest things to figure out in life. Partly that's because few of us truly want to embrace change. It's also partly because there aren't the social norms to guide friendship as there are for other relationships, like parent-child or spouse-spouse; even when we choose to buck those norms still have the guidepost-rules for context.

For me one of the hard things about 'just being there' was the smell. I have a very astute sense of smell and the smell of cancer bowls me over. I sort of got used to it but not really; it took a lot of my energy to be with the smell.

When the time comes that he IS dying--keeping in mind that it's totally true what's been said about chemo kicking worse than cancer, being why some people choose to let the cancer run its course--it might help to give permission to die, letting him know you don't wish for the final good-bye but when it's time you don't want him to hang on for your sake.

Let's hope that day is a long way off yet.

Here's a hug for both of you...

Subject: RE: BS: What do you say when they're dying?
From: GUEST,kendall
Date: 23 Jul 11 - 08:30 AM

I've seen death in well over two dozen friends and close relatives, but I have never been able to deal with it, and I don't know what to say.

I talked to Utah P. about two weeks before he died and I could tell he was slipping fast. Fighting the lump in my throat and blinking back the tears I said to him "How are you doing? the truth now, I need to know."
Long pause and I knew he was near the end.
Finally, he came back with, "I'm not doing well at all. In fact, I'm suicidal."
I said, "Tell me about it."
He said, "I called the suicide hot line and got a man with a middle eastern accent.I told I told him I was suicidal and he said, "Great, can you drive a truck"?

The man is on his death bed and he had to have one more shot at me! He once bragged that he was able to put one over on me, and he went to his grave chuckling about that second shot.

So, GNU, sounds to me like you did the right thing and I'll bet your friend thinks so too.

Most men have a hard time showing affection for other men, but I believe that real men don't worry about what real men do.
If some dude calls me a sissy, I'll hit him with my purse.

Subject: RE: BS: What do you say when they're dying?
From: maeve
Date: 23 Jul 11 - 07:17 AM

Thanks for that, Joe.

Gnu, my rowdy, laughing cousin is dying from cancer; terminal without further reprieve. She wants to live until she dies, not waste what time she has left.

So yes; pay attention to NOW, speak your love, laugh often, feel what you are feeling, respond to what your friend is feeling- remember your friend is alive until he's dead.

Maeve

Subject: RE: BS: What do you say when they're dying?
From: mauvepink
Date: 23 Jul 11 - 07:12 AM

When one man tells another he loves him, I think it takes a great man to do that. Men often skirt they love each other, but never forget that friendship is often love in another form. What you did with your friend is wonderful and I bet he treasures it. There should be lots more of it.

Chemo can be worse than the cancer itself for sure but where there is life there is hope. I hope he gets past this all and manages more time to make newer memories for you both.

My Mum had lung cancer over twenty years ago. She sadly died last week, but not from the cancer. That was conquered and she had the heart of a lioness. Her time had come. I knew she was going to die but was lucky enough to have got the time to be able to say the things I needed to say to her...

Your friend deserves your honesty. You deserve each other's friendship. In life and death it is important to be genuine and sincere. Seems that is what you are doing.

I have seen a lot of death in my life. I have been at too many bedsides when people have died. The ones that passed on the most settled were those who knew they were not alone... You being there for him will be worth so much just now to him and for you in the future

I wish you both well

mauve

Subject: RE: BS: What do you say when they're dying?
From: Joe Offer
Date: 23 Jul 11 - 01:13 AM

Actually, Nick E.'s "hit him with a pie" suggestion is a good one. Humor helps, and people don't lose their sense of humor when they're dying.

I think I've told this story before. I was at the Getaway in September, 2000, and my friend Jim left me a voice mail, simply saying, "I guess you've heard I'm terminal." Well, I hadn't even heard Jim was sick. His wife told me that Jim had lots of buddies through clogging and his interest in Corvettes, but that I was his "heart friend" - and he wanted me to go with him on his journey to death. I had never spent time before with a person who was facing death, but I made a point of visiting Jim every three weeks or so, from late November until he died the following April. We'd sing and chat and laugh much of the time, and it was good - and not too challenging. Three weeks before he died, Jim was different. We sat on a park bench in the garden, talking and singing. I was noodling around on my harmonica (I still don't play it well). Jim borrowed my harmonica, and played a wonderful rendition of "I'll Fly Away." I made up my mind right then that I'd sing that at his funeral.

Then we went inside, and Jim, a former officer in the British Army, wanted to make me a proper cup of tea. He was shaking pretty badly by that time, and having some trouble breathing. His wife gave him some morphine to help him settle down, and helped him make the tea. Then everybody disappeared, and I was left alone with this man who was clearly getting close to death. He was having trouble speaking, but I understood that he wanted me to watch out for his wife Christina and his stepson Josh - and if anything romantic should happen, that would be wonderful. I told him I'd watch out for Christina and Josh, but I doubted anything romantic would develop.

I saw Jim once more, three days before he died. There was a dramatic change in him in just those three weeks. By that time, there was nothing left of him but skin and bones - and his bright eyes and big smile. He couldn't talk, but he wanted me to hold him up. I held him for three hours, and talked to him about what a wonderful person he was and what a difference I'd seen him make in the lives of Josh and Christina. I sang to him 'til I ran out of songs, and I sang him the two other songs I had chosen for his funeral - Bob Franke's Thanksgiving Eve and Alleluia, The Great Storm Is Over.

That last day, I got tired of holding Jim for three hours, and I finally dropped him when I was trying to put him down. I felt so bad about hurting him when he was so sick, but he didn't seem to mind. He died peacefully three days later, a man who had lived life as a wonderful adventure.

I did sing those three songs at Jim's funeral, and they went well. His widow Christina took me on a wildflower hike in the American River Canyon. I had known her before Jim even met her, but on that hike I was moved by her gentle depth and her love of nature, and by the fact that she knew all the flowers*. Within two weeks after Jim's death, I proposed to her - knowing I had Jim's blessing. We were engaged for ten months and got married in January, 2002. It will be ten years this coming January, and I think Saint Jim continues to bless our marriage.

So, gnu, spend time with your friend. You won't regret it.

-Joe-

*I found out later she made up names for some the flowers, and didn't actually know the real names of some of them.

Subject: RE: BS: What do you say when they're dying?
From: Janie
Date: 22 Jul 11 - 11:49 PM

It ain't your job to fix it, Friend. Like others have said-just be there in whatever way it seems good to you to be.

Love you, gnu.

Subject: RE: BS: What do you say when they're dying?
From: wysiwyg
Date: 22 Jul 11 - 11:35 PM

You say that thing that you are worried will make you bust out into tears. You won't bust out, maybe just leak a little; that one thing will be the thing you will wish you had said, later, if you hold it inside-- and the thing he will wish he had heard you say, when he has an alone moment of missing you as he looks forwardly. Don't worry if you feel selfish thinking about saying it. If it goes along with that lump in your throat, it's as much for him as it is for you, even if it doesn't feel that way. And do not try too hard to get it "right"-- just be you, cuz he does already actually know the real you. But leave the spigot running wide open.

He will be in charge of being near enough to you, for you to have these opportunities. If he is coming close enough, now, for you to have something to say-- it is because he needs it from you and because he has faith that you will give it to him. He's already decided about that. So all you have to do is your end of it.

(And then the next time one of US asks these questions, in our turn-- tell us what YOU have learned about these times, please!)

~Susan

Subject: RE: BS: What do you say when they're dying?
From: Gurney
Date: 22 Jul 11 - 11:33 PM

Gnu, know just how you feel, a lovely lady friend of ours just went from the big C.
I lent them my copies of Phil Coulter's 'Tranquility' and 'Sea of Tranquility.' The last thing she heard was beautiful folk music.

Subject: RE: BS: What do you say when they're dying?
From: katlaughing
Date: 22 Jul 11 - 10:37 PM

Can't add much to what's already been said and I do think you nailed it just in what you already said to him. And, I'd love to hear more stories. I hope it's just the chemo, but as everyone has said, just be the friend you are and let him know you are there when he needs you, as long as you take care of yourself, first. It can take a lot to be there, so it's important you pace yourself and/or find other ways to deal with it, too, such as coming to your other friends and telling more stories, how you are feeling, etc. We are here for you, too.

luvyakat

Subject: RE: BS: What do you say when they're dying?
From: Amos
Date: 22 Jul 11 - 10:18 PM

If the moment was right you could say "Ya sound like you're dyiog. Don't do that."


A

Subject: RE: BS: What do you say when they're dying?
From: gnu
Date: 22 Jul 11 - 10:08 PM

Thanks agian all and...

Thanks LilyFestre... especially for "but mostly I wanted my friends to just treat me the same as they always had." Thay is way cool in my books.

Subject: RE: BS: What do you say when they're dying?
From: LilyFestre
Date: 22 Jul 11 - 09:57 PM

Gnu,

   I'm really sorry to hear about your friend. As someone who went through chemo last year I can tell you that it can kick your ass all over the place and make you feel like anything but yourself. I hate to say that I hope it's the chemo that is making him sound the way he does but I do hope it's the chemo and that he'll be ok.
   Did he tell you that there was nothing more they could do?

   You know what I wanted more than anything when I was going through all that? I wanted my life to be normal. I wanted people to talk to me about anything that was just about regular life. I wanted to talk about the cancer stuff too but mostly I wanted my friends to just treat me the same as they always had. A cancer diagnosis freaks out people far beyond the person with the cancer and it does a pretty good job of weeding out who your real friends are. Lots of folks back away. I don't know if they think they can catch it or they feel so awkward and don't know what to say or it if it just creates fear in them. Can't be mad at them really...it's a creepy thing and makes everybody feel bad.
   I'd say just be yourself, after all, that's why you are friends in the first place. And letting someone know that you love them is never, ever wrong. Love & friendship is what life is all about!!!!

    If it's really weird for you, just call and say hello. Your friend will lead you where he's comfortable.

Love to you.

Michelle

Subject: RE: BS: What do you say when they're dying?
From: gnu
Date: 22 Jul 11 - 09:34 PM

Thanks all. And, Jeri... "NOW"... cool.

AllisonA... ok... At one point during the phone call I said, "Fuck me, here I am lightin a smoke... WTF am I doin? I am supposed to be quittin." Reggie says, "Oh, it wasn't tha smokes. It was the trichloroethylene." and he took to laughin. And I took to laughin too. There is a concrete test used to determine the bitumen content in asphaltic concrete. The lads used to take the odd "sniff" when it was boiling. Made those long days in the lab trailer a little shorter than the 14/7 they were. 14/7 for three weeks on with a weekend break in between would tempt anyone to take a sniff.

I never did take a sniff on accounta I smoked weed back then. Minds me a the time me and Dougie and Reggie went fishin on Simms Lake in Labrador. No trout. Not a nibble. On the third trawl past a point I hauled a Maui Wowie toothpick (I don't like to waste dope) and threw the dreg into the lake (the lads "looked the other way"). Bang, bang, bang. All three of us had trout on and mine was the smallest... about 6 pounds. Dougie says, "Ya got any more of that shit? Don't smoke it. Throw it in the lake." Of course, Reggie took ta laughin.

Gee whiz... I got at least a half dozen stories about that one fishin trip. I GOTTA get ta reminisce with Reggie before... you know.

Thanks for your kind words. Youse guys are good buddies too. Thanks for listenin.

Subject: RE: BS: What do you say when they're dying?
From: GUEST,Nick E
Date: 22 Jul 11 - 09:22 PM

Then hit him with a pie.

Subject: RE: BS: What do you say when they're dying?
From: GUEST,Nick E
Date: 22 Jul 11 - 09:20 PM

This is very easy. Tell them you love them.

Subject: RE: BS: What do you say when they're dying?
From: Jeri
Date: 22 Jul 11 - 09:17 PM

Gnu, don't be SURE he's dying. Sometimes the chemo kicks a person's ass harder than the cancer.

In any event, I'd say just fall back on the friendship. There will be people who want to avoid the subject, and there will be people who expect him to spill his guts. Don't be either--just let him be whatever he needs to be. You guys are buddies and that's all you have to be. Cancer is a big, big shadow. Even if it will eventually get him, there's a lot more to life NOW. Keep making him laugh.

Subject: RE: BS: What do you say when they're dying?
From: maeve
Date: 22 Jul 11 - 09:13 PM

It was the same after the fire. It felt like we had died after all, when friends didn't come see us. Walk alongside as much as you can.

Be there, yes- but the words do matter when they are backed up with action.

Subject: RE: BS: What do you say when they're dying?
From: AllisonA(Animaterra)
Date: 22 Jul 11 - 09:12 PM

"Just be there"- exactly right.
You don't have to spell it out to him that you know, just keep on being there.

And gnu, we're here, so tell more stories, please.

Subject: RE: BS: What do you say when they're dying?
From: Bobert
Date: 22 Jul 11 - 09:00 PM

When my friend, Joe, died of lung cancer I went to see him every couple months (he lived 3 hours away) and after he died his widow told me that other me and his family people didn't come by...

Like I said, "Just be there..." Anything you say isn't what it's about...

B~

Subject: RE: BS: What do you say when they're dying?
From: maeve
Date: 22 Jul 11 - 08:47 PM

Still reading, me.

Subject: RE: BS: What do you say when they're dying?
From: Bobert
Date: 22 Jul 11 - 08:46 PM

Just being there is all that is required... Lotta folks don't do that... That avoid the dieing...

Just be there...

B~

Subject: RE: BS: What do you say when they're dying?
From: gnu
Date: 22 Jul 11 - 08:41 PM

Well, bobad, me too. Every minute with Reggie was a laugh and a half. Tonight was the first time in 30 years that he wasn't 100% positive (including during the two rounds of cheemo) and just "bubbly", for lack of a better term. He was always laughing. Always cracking jokes. Even when he was pissed off about something, he'd crack a half-assed joke and laugh... the kind of laugh that was infetious... he could make you laugh just by laughing.

Same with Dougie, his best friend and a friend of mine. Dougie keeled over the steering wheel at age 52 in his driveway after going home from work at noon because he didn't feel good. Dougie could drink black rum all day and night and be as fresh as a rose at dawn. Reggie quit smoking the day Dougie died. Fifteen years later, Reggie got lung cancer. And he... nevermind.

I could tell you stories for hours about them two lads. Lord dyin Moly Joeseph the stories. We logged a lotta miles from East Overshoe, Nova Scotia to WTF Am I Doin Here, Labrador and all points in between. I never met two men who knew SO much about concrete and I'll never again. Dougie could look at asphaltic concrete in the hopper and say, "That's gap graded on the fourty so you'd better get the wheels on it after the first pass with the steel and you still might have to lift it if junior here (me) doesn't pass it fer checkin in the mat." These guys were good. If there ever was such a thing as a crete gunslinger, Dougie and Reggie were top stars and I was lucky to be a deputy. Airport paving is a tight spec.

Sorry... I am rambling. Maybe that's what I wanna do? If yer still reading and yer not keen on what I am writin, stop readin.

Subject: RE: BS: What do you say when they're dying?
From: bobad
Date: 22 Jul 11 - 08:02 PM

I hope you and him get together for that ale and scoff.

Subject: RE: BS: What do you say when they're dying?
From: maeve
Date: 22 Jul 11 - 07:57 PM

You've said it, gnu.

Subject: RE: BS: What do you say when they're dying?
From: GUEST,999
Date: 22 Jul 11 - 07:54 PM

You don't have to ask, Gnu. You nailed it in one.

Subject: RE: BS: What do you say when they're dying?
From: olddude
Date: 22 Jul 11 - 07:53 PM

The truth and tell him you will be there for him no matter what happens

Subject: RE: BS: What do you say when they're dying?
From: SINSULL
Date: 22 Jul 11 - 07:50 PM

The truth, gnu. If you love him, say so. I am about to do the same. It hurts.

Subject: BS: What do you say when they're dying?
From: gnu
Date: 22 Jul 11 - 07:43 PM

I spoke to one of my best friends on the phone tonight. It was obvious. He talked of getting together for a meal out at the pub when he gets better but it was obvious. I could hear it in his voice. He is not well, plain and simple. Two rounds of cheemo and now cheemo pills and he can't make it to the curb and back without resting at the curb.

I tried to regale him with a few old stories of mine that he hadn't heard before and I got a few chuckles out of him but they were tough to pull. At the end of the conversation I said something I have never said to a buddy... "I love ya Reggie... you are one of the finest men I have ever known." He said "You too. When these cheemo pills do their job we'll get out for an ale and a scoff."... but it was obvious.

Whaddya say?

Sorry... just venting. Didn't mean ta bring ya down. But, if anyone has any good advice, I'd appreciate hearing it. I ain't so good at this kinda thing.