BS: Non-Islamic Terrorist in Norway?

Subject: RE: BS: Non-Islamic Terrorist in Norway?
From: McGrath of Harlow
Date: 25 Jul 11 - 09:14 AM

This is a daft squabble, which feels rather disrespectful to the awful thing that has happened.

I'd suggest that a little lip-buttoning would be a good idea.

Subject: RE: BS: Non-Islamic Terrorist in Norway?
From: Keith A of Hertford
Date: 25 Jul 11 - 09:42 AM

Sorry Kevin, and thanks for what you said earlier, but I have been subjected to this same attack as soon as I contributed to other threads before this one.
If it stops now I will say no more.

The solicitor said that he surrendered when out of ammunition, but it is now said he did not run out.
Having see close up the effects of bullets on flesh he chose a different outcome for himself.
He described what he did as "gruesome but necessary."
He seems to have no human empathy with victims or awareness of suffering.
Are these indicative of psychopathy?

Subject: RE: BS: Non-Islamic Terrorist in Norway?
From: Little Hawk
Date: 25 Jul 11 - 09:53 AM

They're indicative of a form of insanity. And I don't mean in the "legal" sense, necessarily. I mean in the actual sense, legal interpretations quite aside. You don't go and shoot a whole bunch of strangers over some political notion unless you're experiencing some form of insanity.

Subject: RE: BS: Non-Islamic Terrorist in Norway?
From: akenaton
Date: 25 Jul 11 - 10:08 AM

Quite right Mr McGrath, but this little squabble is in a strange way relevent to the horrors which have taken place in Norway.

See how Lox and Jim leap to the defence of their ideology....always determined to shut down debate.
When this is perpetrated on a larger scale.....when government policy is forced upon a nation without any attempt to determine what the people of that nation actually feel and discussion proscribed by bullying and misrepresentation, symptoms like the crimes committed in Norway occur

Over the past few years there has been a rise in Scandinavian Nationalism.....they have a powerful sense of their history and culture. Lately the massive influx of Muslim immigrants has caused much disquiet amongst Danes, Swedes and Norwegians.

These immigrants have been encouraged into Scandinavia for the same reasons that they were encouraged into the UK....purely economic...cheap labour...nothing to do with equality or democracy
but like most government policy, it has caused more problems than it solved.

The crimes in Norway were the actions of a madman it proves nothing politically....there are as many on the left as on the right who saw the stupidity of unregulated immigration and we have watched "multiculturalism" fail for decades.

We need to start listening to the majority of our citizens who feel completey disenfranchised by the sort of legislation which is being formulated by successive "liberal" governments.

I we do not we can look forward to riots and battles for years to come.
Resulting of course in a "liberal" fascist police state.

Subject: RE: BS: Non-Islamic Terrorist in Norway?
From: Jack the Sailor
Date: 25 Jul 11 - 10:09 AM

"If it stops now I will say no more."

I think you are missing the point.
Is there a point in YOU continuing even if others do?

Subject: RE: BS: Non-Islamic Terrorist in Norway?
From: Mayet
Date: 25 Jul 11 - 10:14 AM

akenaton said

and I agree wholeheartedly.

A wave of extreme anti Muslim sentiment has been beginning to take hold in Northern Europe. In Holland Geert Wilders and his Party for Freedom, came out vociferously against immigration, and specifically Muslim immigration claiming that, if the Dutch didn't wake up, Sharia law would take over the country. Wilders is quoted as stating that moderate Muslims do not exist and that Islam is evil.

Jimmie Åkesson, of the Sweden Democrats party went on to describe Islam as Sweden's biggest national security threat since the Second World War.
An English language Swedish newspaper reported "I do not equate this reformed Nazi party…with anti-Semitism per se. It's that Swedish brand of Nazism which is more about preserving the traditions and strength of the white Nordic race than about wanting to crack the skulls of Jews."

It is now revealed that an unclassified document published by Norway's Police Security Service in February had warned of rising activity in far-right and anti-Muslim extremist groups and described a picture of "increased uncertainty"
It also said far-right groups in Norway had established links to others in Scandinavia and Russia as well as with far-right extremist groups in Europe
Anders Behrin Breivik (or Andrew Berwick as he termed himself on the internet) claimed to have links with a known anti Muslim far right activist group in the UK

Kari Helene Partapuoli, director of the non-governmental Norwegian Centre against Racism has said that the rhetoric on immigration and Islam in Norway has become harder in some fringe groups,
Anders Behrin Breivik may have been deluded to believe he could kick start the revolution in Norway but mad? His choice of victims was not random - read his 1500page 'manifesto' !

it's a liberal conspiracy

Subject: RE: BS: Non-Islamic Terrorist in Norway?
From: Mayet
Date: 25 Jul 11 - 10:16 AM

for some reason my quote from akenaton didn't appear

"I know that some of the better informed on Mudcat are aware of what has been happening in the Scandinavian countries over the last few years"

Exactly! The 'better informed' do

Subject: RE: BS: Non-Islamic Terrorist in Norway?
From: Keith A of Hertford
Date: 25 Jul 11 - 10:33 AM

Jack, if established members accused you of being a racist, and of making racists posts, would you just let it go or defend yoursef?
Thanks again for what you said earlier.
keith.

Subject: RE: BS: Non-Islamic Terrorist in Norway?
From: Musket
Date: 25 Jul 11 - 10:38 AM

So akenaton reckons governments should listen to those who feel disenfranchised by recent policies?

Many Muslims feel disenfranchised, have since the '50s felt it better to have their separate communities because other British people point and stare when they have tried to integrate.

If multiculturalism has failed, how do you think we should all live? Prevent people from refraining from pork? Force people to be Christians? Lock people up for using community elders to arbitrate on domestic matters? Make it an offence to be teetotal? Prevent women from wearing headgear if there is any whiff of it being "cultural?"

We are a multicultural society, you prat. Always have been and always will be. The Britishness of Rupert the Bear comic strips has never existed (alright, maybe in Godalming) and London has been a melting pot for over a thousand years.

Failure to integrate is a two way street. If people won't integrate and assimilate, think about why not rather than saying accommodating people has failed.

Hope you enjoy your riots and battles, luckily they will be enacted in your mind not on the street. Now please be quiet whilst the grown ups discuss realistic reactions and solutions to this despicable type of criminal act.

Subject: RE: BS: Non-Islamic Terrorist in Norway?
From: Jack the Sailor
Date: 25 Jul 11 - 10:47 AM

"Jack, if established members accused you of being a racist, and of making racists posts, would you just let it go or defend yoursef?"

Many, have done so, many times. I have learned to respond clearly to the allegation, maybe repeat that to be perfectly clear, then, usually, I quit responding.

But again, you miss the point.

McGrath said this.

"This is a daft squabble, which feels rather disrespectful to the awful thing that has happened.
I'd suggest that a little lip-buttoning would be a good idea."

You said,

"quite right."

If you agree that it is a "daft squabble", and "disrespectful" why continue under any conditions.

Are you "daft"?
Are you purposely "disrespectful?"
Do you LIKE to "squabble?"

Subject: RE: BS: Non-Islamic Terrorist in Norway?
From: akenaton
Date: 25 Jul 11 - 11:09 AM

"Now please be quiet whilst the grown ups discuss realistic reactions and solutions to this despicable type of criminal act".

Are you a "grown up" Ian?....you dont sound particularly grown up, but i'll await with interest your "solutions"

I've seen many "reactions" to these problems, but precious few "solutions"

Subject: RE: BS: Non-Islamic Terrorist in Norway?
From: GUEST,Patsy
Date: 25 Jul 11 - 11:11 AM

It was a horrific thing to happen to innocent people whoever was responsible. Ever so often even in the UK we have an incident where someone does something like this for whatever reason but it is always about an obsessive thought in that individual's mind. The difference is that often the end result is that the gunman is shot either self inflicted or by a trained marksman. The gunman in Norway allowed himself to be captured to stand trial because he believes himself to be right. That is the frightening thing. Richard Murdoch did cross my mind more like he was kicking himself for not getting the scoop on the two big stories happening over the weekend.

Subject: RE: BS: Non-Islamic Terrorist in Norway?
From: Jack the Sailor
Date: 25 Jul 11 - 11:12 AM

The only "solution" is to learn from the tragedy and not to overreact.

In other words, the polar opposite of Bush's approach to 9/11.

Subject: RE: BS: Non-Islamic Terrorist in Norway?
From: Keith A of Hertford
Date: 25 Jul 11 - 11:14 AM

Jack, it may look daft from the outside, but inside is not a nice place.
They claim I have made racist posts just to discredit me.
All I have done is to demand they produce those posts.

Subject: RE: BS: Non-Islamic Terrorist in Norway?
From: akenaton
Date: 25 Jul 11 - 11:16 AM

I agree with that Jack.

Subject: RE: BS: Non-Islamic Terrorist in Norway?
From: Jack the Sailor
Date: 25 Jul 11 - 11:20 AM

"All I have done is to demand they produce those posts. "

Doing that once is fine. Every other time, was daft and disrespectful.

Subject: RE: BS: Non-Islamic Terrorist in Norway?
From: Penny S.
Date: 25 Jul 11 - 11:21 AM

Can we get back to the actual news?

I found it odd that he was listed on Facebook as single (this is relevant, believe me) since he comes across as pretty goodlooking (though I gather he favours professional Photoshopping). I suspect World of Warcraft and his other favourite multiple user game, together with the penchant for uniforms, might have something to do with it. As might his use of artificial testosterone, though this might be a result of not attracting women. But this set me off on a historical parallel.

Back in the years before the Norman Conquest, there was a trading settlement of Scandinavians in London, much resented by the locals for bringing their terrible multicultural habits to corrupt the local Engish. The local men went to appeal to King Ethelred to ask that he control immigration (yes, that King Ethelred, the unready ill-advised one), and he decided that he would solve the problem by massacring the newcomers across the country. So on St Brice's Day there was a concerted attack at Viking settlements across the country, including not only men but also women. One of the victims of the St Brice's Day Massacre was the sister of the king of Denmark, which is why Ethelred was soon old news. And what was the particular complaint about the London Scandinavians? On Saturday nights, to get ready for church the next day, they had baths (I imagine of the sauna type, but who knows). As a consequence, on Sunday, the local girls found them much more attractive than the local Mercian youth, to whom a massacre seemed the most obvious solution.

Breivik has, in his writings, held forth on the way that women are not as compliant and obedient, not as devoted to bringing up children as they should be. I suspect that his failure to find someone to put up with his attitude and lack of empathy was at least contributary to his selection of girls as his first choice of victim, as well as his view that killing the defenceless was more appropriate than risking death by taking on the more capable of fighting back. His attitude to divorce is curious, as he attributed it entirely to women leaving their husbands, where his own family was broken by the father leaving while he was only one, and he was brought up in a female environment with his mother and sisters.

I wouldn't want to say that a sense of failing as a man was the entire cause - he obviously has worked very hard to plagiarise the views of the Unabomber and find documentary support for his anti-Muslim views, and clearly has intelligence which he has applied to his purposes. Unfortunately, he never applied that intelligence to the likelihood of people not following his gruesome and wholly unnecessary actions. I'm not sure of the legal definition of sanity, but not living in the real world, and not recognising the lives he took as being of equal value to his, with as much right for their voices to be heard as his would look like not being open to a definition as not mad.

I don't know how society can identify these distorted souls and make sure that they do not have access to anything they can use for mass killing, or even single killing. Fiordman, though keen not to be confused with Breivik, and his followers, seem just as creepy.

Penny

Subject: RE: BS: Non-Islamic Terrorist in Norway?
From: Jack the Sailor
Date: 25 Jul 11 - 11:40 AM

I'm not sure how that is actual news. But is is a better topic of discussion.

Subject: Donuel BS: Non-Islamic Terrorist in Norway?
From: GUEST
Date: 25 Jul 11 - 11:57 AM

Poster appears to be Donuel

---

The new nazi nationalist parties are capturing between 10 to 20% of the votes in Norway, Italy and some other European countries.

Not to sound uncaring but shooting large numbers of boys and girls is merely the extreme example of staunch competitive selfishness which is the foundation of most right wing political movements.

The US version of these groups are growing bolder by attending Political rallies and presidential speeches, openly carrying automated assault weapons.

So far they are saying we are capable...
eventually they will say even more.

Bekieve me, huge corporations can live with these people.

Subject: RE: BS: Non-Islamic Terrorist in Norway?
From: Jack the Sailor
Date: 25 Jul 11 - 11:59 AM

Donuel BS?

LOL!

Subject: RE: BS: Non-Islamic Terrorist in Norway?
From: Musket
Date: 25 Jul 11 - 12:19 PM

Sorry Akenaton, but I am confused.

You stir hatred by denouncing multiculturism as if it could go away, then seem to agree with Jack in saying nobody should overreact.

Completely threw me, that did. I do have a solution you see, and that is not to overreact. Don't give the oxygen of publicity to those who would have an aparthied world, stop pandering to anybody who wants any segregation (and yes, that does work both ways) and most of all, stop promoting distrust.

All a bit airy fairy I grant you. But as there is no magic wand to dealing with crime. Marginalising idiots does at least slow down the adoption of their views and, tragically, their actions.

Europe is supposedly based on a set of equality ideals. Black, white, ginger, brown, blonde hair, brunette, gay, straight, religious, rational, football fan, tennis watcher, folk singer, rap artist.

The alternative to this multi culture? Every bugger has to look like me, think like me and act like me. Sod that for a lark.

Subject: RE: BS: Non-Islamic Terrorist in Norway?
From: Lox
Date: 25 Jul 11 - 03:51 PM

Interesting that Ake, A Scot, Living in the United Kingdom of England, Scotland, Wales and Northern Ireland, and recognized internationally as a British citizen, should take such a clear position on multiculturalism.

Subject: RE: BS: Non-Islamic Terrorist in Norway?
From: Greg F.
Date: 25 Jul 11 - 04:02 PM

You've got to be taught
To hate and fear,
You've got to be taught
From year to year,
It's got to be drummed
In your dear little ear
You've got to be carefully taught.

You've got to be taught to be afraid
Of people whose eyes are oddly made,
And people whose skin is a diff'rent shade,
You've got to be carefully taught.

You've got to be taught before it's too late,
Before you are six or seven or eight,
To hate all the people your relatives hate,
You've got to be carefully taught!

--------

Song is probably a big hit with Fiordman & Breivik and soon to be the Republican campagin song for the 2012 election in the US.

Subject: RE: BS: Non-Islamic Terrorist in Norway?
From: akenaton
Date: 25 Jul 11 - 04:05 PM

Interesting solution Ian....in fact, so original that I suggest that you mosey over to Egypt, Pakistan, Nigeria, Ivory Coast etc and explain it to the Christians who are being killed and mutilated daily by Muslims.

There is no doubt in my mind that the rulers of Islam are well aware that the battle against "Western values" is a battle to the death, for capitulation and the adoption of those values of so called democracy and equality will see the end of their religion, just as they will, in all probability, destroy the Christian religion.

Multiculturalism has never worked, because cultures need lots of time to evolve.....your old red herring that the UK has always been "multicultural" does not work....it took many hundreds perhaps thousands of years, for the races to evolve into what is now the UK.
Pakistanis Indians, Eastern Europeans, have been transplanted here and in Scandinavia, in the space of a decade....there has been no evolution.....they are economic migrants,pure and simple

Blame lies on the policies of successive "liberal" governments.

Subject: RE: BS: Non-Islamic Terrorist in Norway?
From: McGrath of Harlow
Date: 25 Jul 11 - 05:14 PM

Multiculturalism is a word that means different things in different mouths, and that is as true when people are saying they are in favour as when they say they are opposed.

It can be used to mean a society in which people from different backgrounds and cultures mix with each other while holding on to all kinds of differences bases in their different origins - differences in dress, language, food, music.

And it can be used to mean a society in which people from different backgrounds and cultures live in such a way that they avoid contact with each other.

The confusion arises when people throw the word around without defining what they mean by it. Sometimes this is intentional, not always.

Subject: RE: BS: Non-Islamic Terrorist in Norway?
From: Donuel
Date: 25 Jul 11 - 05:18 PM

Greg, Matty Potempkin did a great version of carefully taught and it ain;t nessisarily so.

Subject: RE: BS: Non-Islamic Terrorist in Norway?
From: Mrrzy
Date: 25 Jul 11 - 11:08 PM

"I asked well, who bombs Americans?" Strange how it appears that Timothy McVeigh seems to have drifted out of the consciousness of Mrrzy - and many others.

McGrath, dear, I asked that question in 1993. In 1993, 1995 hadn't happened yet.

Subject: RE: BS: Non-Islamic Terrorist in Norway?
From: Lox
Date: 26 Jul 11 - 12:17 AM

Psychopathic White Supremacists have been murdering people in vast numbers for hundreds of years.

Why should this ones actions suddenly be 'explainable' by bad immigration policies?


Interestingly, that 'explanation' has been doing the rounds for longer than I can remember too.


But if you repackage it as somehow 'insightful', and if you have a blind spot the size of australia, you can pretend that history is taking a new twist.


It worries me that this guy may become a bit of a folk hero among the extreme right and there may be copycat attacks.


Anyone who doubts how tough the struggle against right wing ideas is should check this out.


Muslamic Ray Guns ...

Subject: RE: BS: Non-Islamic Terrorist in Norway?
From: Musket
Date: 26 Jul 11 - 04:12 AM

I got as far as "leaders of Islam" and remembered something about false idols, or to put it another way, there are no leaders of Islam, no equivalent to the Pope or Archbishop of Canterbury.

Just to give Akenaton the benefit of the doubt, I struggled on till I came to the bit about economic migrants being a new phenomenon, then smiled, shut down the computer and went as ever to the pub where the illogical spouting of bollocks at least has benefit of making you realise what the Daily M*il has been printing that morning...

I know this is an international site, so sometimes you have to point out where you live in case the other person thinks you mean where they live. I live in The UK, where do you live Akenaton? Other than in your own head? If you ever visit The UK, you will see how a melting pot over the millennia gives us a multicultural society that works, and for the vast majority, works well.

Sorry, but this pure hate and twisting of facts is rather nauseating.

Subject: RE: BS: Non-Islamic Terrorist in Norway?
From: Keith A of Hertford
Date: 26 Jul 11 - 04:26 AM

If you live in the UK I am surprised that you are not aware that the recent unprecedented levels of migration have become a main stream issue for all the political parties, but this thread is not the place to discuss it.
Breivik committed an inconceivably horrific act of mass murder, as others have before him.
Each were driven by some issue or other.
Rational concern and debate about serious issues has nothing to do with an individual going bezerk because he supported one side or the other, and they should never become part of the debate.

Subject: RE: BS: Non-Islamic Terrorist in Norway?
From: GUEST,English Martyr
Date: 26 Jul 11 - 04:38 AM

" the recent unprecedented levels of migration have become a main stream (sic) issue for all the political parties"

Not so. Care to show where e.g. the LibDems and the Labour parties have demonstrated immigration as a mainstream issue?

I believe you will find that, in the UK, the issue of immigration is a hobby horse of the far-right parties such as UKIP, EDL, BNP, etc.

As you live in the UK I am sure you will know this to be the case.

Subject: RE: BS: Non-Islamic Terrorist in Norway?
From: MGM·Lion
Date: 26 Jul 11 - 05:08 AM

--Care to show where e.g. the LibDems and the Labour parties have demonstrated immigration as a mainstream issue?--

From the Lib·Dem manifesto -

"But since the Tories and Labour abolished exit checks in the 1990s, we have no way of knowing how many illegal immigrants live here.
Liberal Democrats want an immigration system that works. A system that is firm but fair, which plans for the effects of managed legal migration and promotes integration. We believe in the benefits that immigration has brought this country but we do not believe our borders should be a soft touch.
Liberal Democrats would take control of our borders and immediately reintroduce entry and exit checks. Our National Border Force would have the power of arrest."
,,,,,,

From 2010 Labour manifesto--

"Controlled migration brings undoubted benefits to our country but we also recognise people's legitimate concerns about the impact it can have on communities. Net inward migration to Britain as measured by the Office for National Statistics has fallen for the last three years. We are delivering the biggest changes to our immigration, citizenship and border security systems for decades – we are bringing in a new Australian-style points-based immigration system which allows us to be more selective so that only those with the skills that we need to build a stronger economy can come here, and to ensure that as growth returns, we will see rising levels of employment, skills and wages not more immigration."

Satisfied, English Martyr?

Subject: RE: BS: Non-Islamic Terrorist in Norway?
From: Musket
Date: 26 Jul 11 - 05:52 AM

Yes, we do have an immediate (rather than chronic) issue with immigration. I doubt anybody thinks we have the space and resource for unchecked immigration.

However, despite the huge numbers over recent years, many come with a work ethic, which makes them contributors rather than recipients of what our society can offer. Many reading will be old enough to recall when we didn't have enough people for all the jobs and encouraged a mass immigration from The West Indies, mainly to carry out the jobs others wouldn't do. Now, it is a little too far in the other direction.

Immigration is an issue for political parties, but I would contend it is less of a problem for each individual community. I suppose with both my wife and I being involved in healthcare, our experiences reflect our "circle" of friends, but a BBQ we are hosting next weekend has, to my knowledge families originating from at least seven different countries. And you know what? They are all British, pay huge amounts of tax and contribute to their chosen place of residence.

Funny that where I used to live, I would walk into town and see where the social services and social security budget is spent. Their party piece being able to push a push chair and light a fag at the same time. The only area free of them is the area around the job centre.

If I were prejudiced enough to value people by where they were born and how they look, these would be my fellow citizens.

Subject: RE: BS: Non-Islamic Terrorist in Norway?
From: Keith A of Hertford
Date: 26 Jul 11 - 06:29 AM

That is my experience too Ian.
Our schools are producing large numbers of unemployable youth, and employers understandably take on the cheapest and best available, but this situation is unsustainable.
There is a thread, "UK immigration too high?" or a new one could be started.

Subject: RE: BS: Non-Islamic Terrorist in Norway?
From: GUEST,English Martyr
Date: 26 Jul 11 - 06:44 AM

"Satisfied, English Martyr?"

Nope. Not in the least satisfied by your response. It does not offer a defence that the major UK parties have adopted an anti-immigration platform as a main stream (sic) policy position. Nor does it even suggest that recent levels of immigration are "unprecedented" as Keith A of Hertford has stated above. That particular canard is regularly wheeled out by the extreme right. You know, those people who espouse virulent racist viewpoints.

The reality is that mainstream parties have had to address the fact that , as Ian Mather points out, there was/ is a serious flaw in the benefits system, how it is managed and how points are awarded etc. I do not believe anyone has argued that there is a need to stop the abuse of the benefits system be that by indigenous people or by people coming t his country legally or illegally. However, there is a major leap from that position to one where the blame for society's problems can be laid at the door of immigrants.

To reiterate, recent levels of immigration are not "unprecedented" as claimed. Compare the statement from the Labour 2010 manifesto ... "..Net inward migration to Britain as measured by the Office for National Statistics has fallen for the last three years....".   What the Lib Dems and Labour are saying is that there needs to be a managed process which will ensure that those coming in have the skills necessary to plug gaps in the areas of economic activity where we are currently lacking and that a system should be put in place which ensures that immigration is managed in a way which promotes integration. As opposed to creating the spectre of a bogeyman sub-set within our society.

To nail another piece of disinformation , the overwhelming majority of benefits disbursed go to indigenous people. This is clearly recorded by the Office of National Statistics. Of course, it does not sit comfortably with the anti-immigration, racist brigade to acknowledge that fact but it is clearly recorded.

By all means put forward your points of view, however selective your supporting thesis. But please be mindful that the ONLY people arguing that recent levels of immigration are "unprecedented", that all parties have adopted this as a major policy platform issue (i.e. immigration, period, as opposed to a managed immigration system ) are members of right-wing extremist groupings and/ or their followers

Please do not misrepresent the position of the major parties. It is dissembling of the highest order and using this thread to insinuate anti-immigration arguments is unaccepatable. In short, doing so merely continues the Oslo psychopath's message. But then I am confident that there are those who will wish to do precisely that, regardless of the medium.

Subject: RE: BS: Non-Islamic Terrorist in Norway?
From: Keith A of Hertford
Date: 26 Jul 11 - 07:00 AM

We are not to name those organisations in the forum.
Here is a thread about UK immigration.
thread.cfm?threadid=124011&messages=472&page=1&desc=yes
Here is a post.


01 Jul 11 - 05:53 AM

Almost half a million people were added to the UK population last year – the highest level since 1962 and the start of the last baby boom, figures revealed yesterday.

New migrants accounted for almost half the increase while the number of births hit a 20 year high.

However, the increase in children was also partly down to a rise in migrant mothers meaning immigration had both a direct and indirect impact on population growth, according to the Office for National Statistics (ONS)

The trend means enough people to fill the city of Manchester were added to the country last year and, if it that rate continues, the population will hit the 70 million mark by 2026.

The growing figures are a fresh headache for the Government which has pledged to slash immigration.
http://www.telegraph.co.uk/news/uknews/immigration/8608777/UK-population-growing-at-fastest-rate-for-50-years.html

Subject: RE: BS: Non-Islamic Terrorist in Norway?
From: McGrath of Harlow
Date: 26 Jul 11 - 07:04 AM

Once again, with no expectation that the information will be taken on board, I point out that the amount of benefit overpaid in the UK is overwhelmingly made up of accidental overpayments made by the authorities and subsequently reclaimed. And it is greatly outnumbered by the amount of benefit to which people are entitled which they do not claim.

The benefits system does need adjustment and improvement, and it can have perverse effects, for example by penalising people on benefit when they seek to do more than a minimum amount of voluntary work. But sounding off about "scroungers" and "benefit cheats" and "workshy" misses the point.

Quite what all this has to do with a multiple child killer in Norway is not too easy to understand.

Subject: RE: BS: Non-Islamic Terrorist in Norway?
From: MGM·Lion
Date: 26 Jul 11 - 07:05 AM

--"where e.g. the LibDems and the Labour parties have demonstrated immigration as a mainstream issue?"-- was what you wrote, E Martyr ~~ nothing about an 'anti-immigration policy' ~~ and that was what I demonstrated. If you choose now to shift your ground, that is your choice & not my problem. I am sure readers of this post will know how to evaluate such opportunistic evasiveness...

And anyway, how, for that matter, would you interpret

"we will see rising levels of employment, skills and wages not more immigration."{Labour ~ my emphasis
"immediately reintroduce entry and exit checks. Our National Border Force would have the power of arrest." {LibDems}

as other than statements against uncontrolled immigration?

~M~

Subject: RE: BS: Non-Islamic Terrorist in Norway?
From: Keith A of Hertford
Date: 26 Jul 11 - 09:08 AM

English Martyr, you began your reply with "Nope."
I only know of one other person who does that.

Subject: RE: BS: Non-Islamic Terrorist in Norway?
From: McGrath of Harlow
Date: 26 Jul 11 - 09:18 AM

But put "Nope" in Lyrics Search for forum and you get several thousand posts using the word by a whole range of people...

Subject: RE: BS: Non-Islamic Terrorist in Norway?
From: Jim Carroll
Date: 28 Jul 11 - 12:51 PM

"I have never expressed a "repulsively racist idea," or you would be able to produce it."
You were asked did you believe that "their (British Pakistani) culture inspires a slight predisposition to the grooming and abuse of underage girls. Can you confirm that that is your opinion of British Pakistanis?", you replied "It is my opinion that it is a reasonable suggestion".
That is a repulsively racist idea - it is racist - most people I know find it repulsive - you supported it as a reasonable idea - you have expressed a repulsively racist idea.These are direct quotes from you- what's your problem?
Here you have attempted to link the massacre with Muslims - business as usual.
Ake has not only suggested that the killer had grounds for his acts, but also that his demands need to be addressed - like minds, what!!
"I only know of one other person who does that."
Something I occasionally do. I hope you're not suggesting I have been posting under a false name - I only know one person who does that - you - I've been out of reach for a few days, celebrating.
Jim Carroll

Subject: RE: BS: Non-Islamic Terrorist in Norway?
From: Jack the Sailor
Date: 28 Jul 11 - 01:04 PM

"I have never expressed a "repulsively racist idea," or you would be able to produce it."

I don't know who said this but on the face of it, it is true. The key is the use of the word "repulsively" nearly no one is repulsed by their own ideas. On the other hand, the use of the qualifier "repulsively" provided a strong indication that the speaker has expressed racist ideas which they do not consider to be repulsive.

Since most people who would use the word racist in any sentence which does not include a denial of racism would consider any racist remark repulsive, the quoted statement, from that point of view is also untrue on the face of it.

I can't imagine anyone but a racist making that statement. But maybe that is simply a limitation of my imagination.

Subject: RE: BS: Non-Islamic Terrorist in Norway?
From: Keith A of Hertford
Date: 28 Jul 11 - 01:29 PM

This was the context.
I have admitted to knowing nothing about the culture, and could not form such an opinion myself.
That opinion was expressed by eminent national figures, most of whom were actually members of that culture.
I reported that opinion in the thread, and was asked if I believed it.
Here is my whole reply, which contains no racist statements.
Remember, the suggestion was not mine but that of famously ANTI-RACIST Pakistani people.

It is my opinion that it is a reasonable suggestion.
The over representation is a fact that requires an explanation.
Something is predisposing them, and it is more likely to be something sexual in the culture than your alternative list. (wild generalisations?)

If it did give rise to just a slight predisposition, then only a tiny minority would succumb.
And that is exactly what is found.

It is consistent with the facts, self consistent, contains no logical flaws, and no alternative yet suggested.

Subject: RE: BS: Non-Islamic Terrorist in Norway?
From: Keith A of Hertford
Date: 28 Jul 11 - 01:41 PM

The suggestion was that the very restrictve marriage practices were to blame.
Men were forced to marry very late and were not allowed any relationships outside marriage.
The frequently unhappy arranged cousin marriages were also implicated.
I knew nothing about any of that.
The suggestions came from people with first hand knowledge and experience, and most were part of and had grown up in that community.
Why would I not believe them?
They are anti-racists so it can not be racist to accept their informed opinion.

Subject: RE: BS: Non-Islamic Terrorist in Norway?
From: Jim Carroll
Date: 28 Jul 11 - 02:14 PM

Couldn't give a toss about the 'context'
You stated as a personl belief that British Pakistanis were culturally disposed to "the grooming and abuse of underage girls."
Is it not racist, is it not repulsive (to Pakistanis and to non racists), did you or did you not put it forward as your opinion - which of these statements is untrue???
I couldn't give a shit whether you believe marriage practices are to blame - it is classic racist stereotyping on your part and th fact that you also said that "all British Pakistanis" are effected in this way makes aimed at "all Pakistanis".
You have put it forward as your opinion, you have denied making such a statement, you have pleaded neutrality based on your ignorance, you have hidden behind the words of others to defend your belief in it, you are now confirming that belief.
You have made a repulsively racist statement - stop calling people who point this out to you liars - you have just confirmed they are telling the truth, it is your own self-confessed opinion, nobody cares who else shares your view - it is your racist view.
Jim Carroll

Subject: RE: BS: Non-Islamic Terrorist in Norway?
From: Keith A of Hertford
Date: 28 Jul 11 - 02:30 PM

It was not my opinion.
I had no knowledge or experience to form such an opinion.

The opinion was expressed, in all the national media, by five respected national figures, three of whom were Pakistani themselves and well known as defenders of their community AGAINST racism and prejudice.
My crime was to believe them.
I even stated that I would reconsider if anyone put forward a different explanation.
No-one did (or do you know of one Jim?)

That post was made early in February.
Why are you constantly trying to attack me with these false accusations Jim?
This is a serious discussion about a serious issue.
If you must do it, use pm. I will reply by same method.

Subject: RE: BS: Non-Islamic Terrorist in Norway?
From: McGrath of Harlow
Date: 28 Jul 11 - 03:11 PM

Generalisations or speculations about the impact of national cultures on the behaviour of people - as for example in the case of Dominique Strauss-Kahn - may be mistaken, but it seems inappropriate to assume that they are "racist".

However Keith's suggestion that PMs might be a better way of discussing this makes sense.

Subject: RE: BS: Non-Islamic Terrorist in Norway?
From: Jack the Sailor
Date: 28 Jul 11 - 03:22 PM

Have we officially reached more posts about Lox and Keith than about Norway? I take it that getting back to the topic under discussion is not an option?

Subject: RE: BS: Non-Islamic Terrorist in Norway?
From: Jim Carroll
Date: 28 Jul 11 - 04:03 PM

Keith said:
"It was not my opinion......."
Keith said:
"Don I do now " believe that all male Pakistani Muslims have a culturally implanted tendency....."
Stop telling lies and stop acuusing others of telling lies.
Jack:
"Have we officially reached more posts....."
This massacre, however insanely executed, was an attempt to rally support for a racist backlash in Norway - a "revolution" against "multiculturalism and immigration", as has been suggested in Norway, in the press, (and to some degree supported by some contributors to this thread).
Some of us got a bellyful of Keith's attacking British Pakistanis on a previous thread, and it is my belief that if he was let he would have no hesitation in using this thread in the same way (his linking the behaviour of a massacre by a fascist killer with Muslims was an indication of that IMO).
I have said what I have to say on his behaviour and his own words are enough for people to make up their own minds as far as I'm concerned.
In my opinion, the Norwegian massacre is the inevitable direction for all racism to take when unopposed.
Have said what I want to on this particular aspect
FINIS
Jim Carroll

Subject: RE: BS: Non-Islamic Terrorist in Norway?
From: McGrath of Harlow
Date: 28 Jul 11 - 04:03 PM

Why not do that Jack?