BS: Non-Islamic Terrorist in Norway?

Subject: RE: BS: Non-Islamic Terrorist in Norway?
From: Greg F.
Date: 25 Jul 11 - 04:02 PM

You've got to be taught
To hate and fear,
You've got to be taught
From year to year,
It's got to be drummed
In your dear little ear
You've got to be carefully taught.

You've got to be taught to be afraid
Of people whose eyes are oddly made,
And people whose skin is a diff'rent shade,
You've got to be carefully taught.

You've got to be taught before it's too late,
Before you are six or seven or eight,
To hate all the people your relatives hate,
You've got to be carefully taught!

--------

Song is probably a big hit with Fiordman & Breivik and soon to be the Republican campagin song for the 2012 election in the US.

Subject: RE: BS: Non-Islamic Terrorist in Norway?
From: Lox
Date: 25 Jul 11 - 03:51 PM

Interesting that Ake, A Scot, Living in the United Kingdom of England, Scotland, Wales and Northern Ireland, and recognized internationally as a British citizen, should take such a clear position on multiculturalism.

Subject: RE: BS: Non-Islamic Terrorist in Norway?
From: Musket
Date: 25 Jul 11 - 12:19 PM

Sorry Akenaton, but I am confused.

You stir hatred by denouncing multiculturism as if it could go away, then seem to agree with Jack in saying nobody should overreact.

Completely threw me, that did. I do have a solution you see, and that is not to overreact. Don't give the oxygen of publicity to those who would have an aparthied world, stop pandering to anybody who wants any segregation (and yes, that does work both ways) and most of all, stop promoting distrust.

All a bit airy fairy I grant you. But as there is no magic wand to dealing with crime. Marginalising idiots does at least slow down the adoption of their views and, tragically, their actions.

Europe is supposedly based on a set of equality ideals. Black, white, ginger, brown, blonde hair, brunette, gay, straight, religious, rational, football fan, tennis watcher, folk singer, rap artist.

The alternative to this multi culture? Every bugger has to look like me, think like me and act like me. Sod that for a lark.

Subject: RE: BS: Non-Islamic Terrorist in Norway?
From: Jack the Sailor
Date: 25 Jul 11 - 11:59 AM

Donuel BS?

LOL!

Subject: Donuel BS: Non-Islamic Terrorist in Norway?
From: GUEST
Date: 25 Jul 11 - 11:57 AM

Poster appears to be Donuel

---

The new nazi nationalist parties are capturing between 10 to 20% of the votes in Norway, Italy and some other European countries.

Not to sound uncaring but shooting large numbers of boys and girls is merely the extreme example of staunch competitive selfishness which is the foundation of most right wing political movements.

The US version of these groups are growing bolder by attending Political rallies and presidential speeches, openly carrying automated assault weapons.

So far they are saying we are capable...
eventually they will say even more.

Bekieve me, huge corporations can live with these people.

Subject: RE: BS: Non-Islamic Terrorist in Norway?
From: Jack the Sailor
Date: 25 Jul 11 - 11:40 AM

I'm not sure how that is actual news. But is is a better topic of discussion.

Subject: RE: BS: Non-Islamic Terrorist in Norway?
From: Penny S.
Date: 25 Jul 11 - 11:21 AM

Can we get back to the actual news?

I found it odd that he was listed on Facebook as single (this is relevant, believe me) since he comes across as pretty goodlooking (though I gather he favours professional Photoshopping). I suspect World of Warcraft and his other favourite multiple user game, together with the penchant for uniforms, might have something to do with it. As might his use of artificial testosterone, though this might be a result of not attracting women. But this set me off on a historical parallel.

Back in the years before the Norman Conquest, there was a trading settlement of Scandinavians in London, much resented by the locals for bringing their terrible multicultural habits to corrupt the local Engish. The local men went to appeal to King Ethelred to ask that he control immigration (yes, that King Ethelred, the unready ill-advised one), and he decided that he would solve the problem by massacring the newcomers across the country. So on St Brice's Day there was a concerted attack at Viking settlements across the country, including not only men but also women. One of the victims of the St Brice's Day Massacre was the sister of the king of Denmark, which is why Ethelred was soon old news. And what was the particular complaint about the London Scandinavians? On Saturday nights, to get ready for church the next day, they had baths (I imagine of the sauna type, but who knows). As a consequence, on Sunday, the local girls found them much more attractive than the local Mercian youth, to whom a massacre seemed the most obvious solution.

Breivik has, in his writings, held forth on the way that women are not as compliant and obedient, not as devoted to bringing up children as they should be. I suspect that his failure to find someone to put up with his attitude and lack of empathy was at least contributary to his selection of girls as his first choice of victim, as well as his view that killing the defenceless was more appropriate than risking death by taking on the more capable of fighting back. His attitude to divorce is curious, as he attributed it entirely to women leaving their husbands, where his own family was broken by the father leaving while he was only one, and he was brought up in a female environment with his mother and sisters.

I wouldn't want to say that a sense of failing as a man was the entire cause - he obviously has worked very hard to plagiarise the views of the Unabomber and find documentary support for his anti-Muslim views, and clearly has intelligence which he has applied to his purposes. Unfortunately, he never applied that intelligence to the likelihood of people not following his gruesome and wholly unnecessary actions. I'm not sure of the legal definition of sanity, but not living in the real world, and not recognising the lives he took as being of equal value to his, with as much right for their voices to be heard as his would look like not being open to a definition as not mad.

I don't know how society can identify these distorted souls and make sure that they do not have access to anything they can use for mass killing, or even single killing. Fiordman, though keen not to be confused with Breivik, and his followers, seem just as creepy.

Penny

Subject: RE: BS: Non-Islamic Terrorist in Norway?
From: Jack the Sailor
Date: 25 Jul 11 - 11:20 AM

"All I have done is to demand they produce those posts. "

Doing that once is fine. Every other time, was daft and disrespectful.

Subject: RE: BS: Non-Islamic Terrorist in Norway?
From: akenaton
Date: 25 Jul 11 - 11:16 AM

I agree with that Jack.

Subject: RE: BS: Non-Islamic Terrorist in Norway?
From: Keith A of Hertford
Date: 25 Jul 11 - 11:14 AM

Jack, it may look daft from the outside, but inside is not a nice place.
They claim I have made racist posts just to discredit me.
All I have done is to demand they produce those posts.

Subject: RE: BS: Non-Islamic Terrorist in Norway?
From: Jack the Sailor
Date: 25 Jul 11 - 11:12 AM

The only "solution" is to learn from the tragedy and not to overreact.

In other words, the polar opposite of Bush's approach to 9/11.

Subject: RE: BS: Non-Islamic Terrorist in Norway?
From: GUEST,Patsy
Date: 25 Jul 11 - 11:11 AM

It was a horrific thing to happen to innocent people whoever was responsible. Ever so often even in the UK we have an incident where someone does something like this for whatever reason but it is always about an obsessive thought in that individual's mind. The difference is that often the end result is that the gunman is shot either self inflicted or by a trained marksman. The gunman in Norway allowed himself to be captured to stand trial because he believes himself to be right. That is the frightening thing. Richard Murdoch did cross my mind more like he was kicking himself for not getting the scoop on the two big stories happening over the weekend.

Subject: RE: BS: Non-Islamic Terrorist in Norway?
From: akenaton
Date: 25 Jul 11 - 11:09 AM

"Now please be quiet whilst the grown ups discuss realistic reactions and solutions to this despicable type of criminal act".

Are you a "grown up" Ian?....you dont sound particularly grown up, but i'll await with interest your "solutions"

I've seen many "reactions" to these problems, but precious few "solutions"

Subject: RE: BS: Non-Islamic Terrorist in Norway?
From: Jack the Sailor
Date: 25 Jul 11 - 10:47 AM

"Jack, if established members accused you of being a racist, and of making racists posts, would you just let it go or defend yoursef?"

Many, have done so, many times. I have learned to respond clearly to the allegation, maybe repeat that to be perfectly clear, then, usually, I quit responding.

But again, you miss the point.

McGrath said this.

"This is a daft squabble, which feels rather disrespectful to the awful thing that has happened.
I'd suggest that a little lip-buttoning would be a good idea."

You said,

"quite right."

If you agree that it is a "daft squabble", and "disrespectful" why continue under any conditions.

Are you "daft"?
Are you purposely "disrespectful?"
Do you LIKE to "squabble?"

Subject: RE: BS: Non-Islamic Terrorist in Norway?
From: Musket
Date: 25 Jul 11 - 10:38 AM

So akenaton reckons governments should listen to those who feel disenfranchised by recent policies?

Many Muslims feel disenfranchised, have since the '50s felt it better to have their separate communities because other British people point and stare when they have tried to integrate.

If multiculturalism has failed, how do you think we should all live? Prevent people from refraining from pork? Force people to be Christians? Lock people up for using community elders to arbitrate on domestic matters? Make it an offence to be teetotal? Prevent women from wearing headgear if there is any whiff of it being "cultural?"

We are a multicultural society, you prat. Always have been and always will be. The Britishness of Rupert the Bear comic strips has never existed (alright, maybe in Godalming) and London has been a melting pot for over a thousand years.

Failure to integrate is a two way street. If people won't integrate and assimilate, think about why not rather than saying accommodating people has failed.

Hope you enjoy your riots and battles, luckily they will be enacted in your mind not on the street. Now please be quiet whilst the grown ups discuss realistic reactions and solutions to this despicable type of criminal act.

Subject: RE: BS: Non-Islamic Terrorist in Norway?
From: Keith A of Hertford
Date: 25 Jul 11 - 10:33 AM

Jack, if established members accused you of being a racist, and of making racists posts, would you just let it go or defend yoursef?
Thanks again for what you said earlier.
keith.

Subject: RE: BS: Non-Islamic Terrorist in Norway?
From: Mayet
Date: 25 Jul 11 - 10:16 AM

for some reason my quote from akenaton didn't appear

"I know that some of the better informed on Mudcat are aware of what has been happening in the Scandinavian countries over the last few years"

Exactly! The 'better informed' do

Subject: RE: BS: Non-Islamic Terrorist in Norway?
From: Mayet
Date: 25 Jul 11 - 10:14 AM

akenaton said

and I agree wholeheartedly.

A wave of extreme anti Muslim sentiment has been beginning to take hold in Northern Europe. In Holland Geert Wilders and his Party for Freedom, came out vociferously against immigration, and specifically Muslim immigration claiming that, if the Dutch didn't wake up, Sharia law would take over the country. Wilders is quoted as stating that moderate Muslims do not exist and that Islam is evil.

Jimmie Åkesson, of the Sweden Democrats party went on to describe Islam as Sweden's biggest national security threat since the Second World War.
An English language Swedish newspaper reported "I do not equate this reformed Nazi party…with anti-Semitism per se. It's that Swedish brand of Nazism which is more about preserving the traditions and strength of the white Nordic race than about wanting to crack the skulls of Jews."

It is now revealed that an unclassified document published by Norway's Police Security Service in February had warned of rising activity in far-right and anti-Muslim extremist groups and described a picture of "increased uncertainty"
It also said far-right groups in Norway had established links to others in Scandinavia and Russia as well as with far-right extremist groups in Europe
Anders Behrin Breivik (or Andrew Berwick as he termed himself on the internet) claimed to have links with a known anti Muslim far right activist group in the UK

Kari Helene Partapuoli, director of the non-governmental Norwegian Centre against Racism has said that the rhetoric on immigration and Islam in Norway has become harder in some fringe groups,
Anders Behrin Breivik may have been deluded to believe he could kick start the revolution in Norway but mad? His choice of victims was not random - read his 1500page 'manifesto' !

it's a liberal conspiracy

Subject: RE: BS: Non-Islamic Terrorist in Norway?
From: Jack the Sailor
Date: 25 Jul 11 - 10:09 AM

"If it stops now I will say no more."

I think you are missing the point.
Is there a point in YOU continuing even if others do?

Subject: RE: BS: Non-Islamic Terrorist in Norway?
From: akenaton
Date: 25 Jul 11 - 10:08 AM

Quite right Mr McGrath, but this little squabble is in a strange way relevent to the horrors which have taken place in Norway.

See how Lox and Jim leap to the defence of their ideology....always determined to shut down debate.
When this is perpetrated on a larger scale.....when government policy is forced upon a nation without any attempt to determine what the people of that nation actually feel and discussion proscribed by bullying and misrepresentation, symptoms like the crimes committed in Norway occur

Over the past few years there has been a rise in Scandinavian Nationalism.....they have a powerful sense of their history and culture. Lately the massive influx of Muslim immigrants has caused much disquiet amongst Danes, Swedes and Norwegians.

These immigrants have been encouraged into Scandinavia for the same reasons that they were encouraged into the UK....purely economic...cheap labour...nothing to do with equality or democracy
but like most government policy, it has caused more problems than it solved.

The crimes in Norway were the actions of a madman it proves nothing politically....there are as many on the left as on the right who saw the stupidity of unregulated immigration and we have watched "multiculturalism" fail for decades.

We need to start listening to the majority of our citizens who feel completey disenfranchised by the sort of legislation which is being formulated by successive "liberal" governments.

I we do not we can look forward to riots and battles for years to come.
Resulting of course in a "liberal" fascist police state.

Subject: RE: BS: Non-Islamic Terrorist in Norway?
From: Little Hawk
Date: 25 Jul 11 - 09:53 AM

They're indicative of a form of insanity. And I don't mean in the "legal" sense, necessarily. I mean in the actual sense, legal interpretations quite aside. You don't go and shoot a whole bunch of strangers over some political notion unless you're experiencing some form of insanity.

Subject: RE: BS: Non-Islamic Terrorist in Norway?
From: Keith A of Hertford
Date: 25 Jul 11 - 09:42 AM

Sorry Kevin, and thanks for what you said earlier, but I have been subjected to this same attack as soon as I contributed to other threads before this one.
If it stops now I will say no more.

The solicitor said that he surrendered when out of ammunition, but it is now said he did not run out.
Having see close up the effects of bullets on flesh he chose a different outcome for himself.
He described what he did as "gruesome but necessary."
He seems to have no human empathy with victims or awareness of suffering.
Are these indicative of psychopathy?

Subject: RE: BS: Non-Islamic Terrorist in Norway?
From: McGrath of Harlow
Date: 25 Jul 11 - 09:14 AM

This is a daft squabble, which feels rather disrespectful to the awful thing that has happened.

I'd suggest that a little lip-buttoning would be a good idea.

Subject: RE: BS: Non-Islamic Terrorist in Norway?
From: Jack the Sailor
Date: 25 Jul 11 - 07:59 AM

Lox, I said that he had not said what you said he said that that you both were taking this too far.

Think about it. Wasn't that correct?

Subject: RE: BS: Non-Islamic Terrorist in Norway?
From: Keith A of Hertford
Date: 25 Jul 11 - 07:42 AM

Correction to previous post.

Lox, I believe you do have personal grounds to attack me, but I refer to attacking me as opposed to one my posts.
"Only Keith could" is saying something about me personally.
Also, I did not say what you claimed only I could say, and it would be totally unlike me to say such a thing.
Your post was a dishonest smear.

Off you go then Lox.

Subject: RE: BS: Non-Islamic Terrorist in Norway?
From: MGM·Lion
Date: 25 Jul 11 - 07:18 AM

"Only Keith could fins a form of Logic that found Islam responsible in some way for the actions of a Moslem hater."

These were your actual words, Lox. Not the exact "just like Keith" words you deny, but "only Keith" surely near enough to cite from memory. Calling it 'a fabrication' is just typical of your usual twisted argumentations.

Just like Lox to evade the issue on the foolish technicality of a slight misrecollection of what he actually said: but then that's old Foxiloxy back, to the life as ever was.

~M~

Subject: RE: BS: Non-Islamic Terrorist in Norway?
From: Lox
Date: 25 Jul 11 - 07:06 AM

This determination to play the poor smeared victim, combined with fabricated quotes and false accusations is clearly a cynical attempt to draw the attention of the mods.

Unfortunately for Keith it is clearly unsupported.

I will therefore withdraw and let him furnish the hole he has dug exactly how he pleases.

Subject: RE: BS: Non-Islamic Terrorist in Norway?
From: Lox
Date: 25 Jul 11 - 06:59 AM

""It is just like Keith to" is saying something about me personally."


Where have I written "its just like keith"?


Fabrication number 3

Subject: RE: BS: Non-Islamic Terrorist in Norway?
From: Lox
Date: 25 Jul 11 - 06:57 AM

Jack,


Keith says I made a personal attack.

Can you find it?


He also attributed a quote to me that I did not write.


Will he be acknowledging his 'mistakes' or reasserting them?


Let him make his own bed.

Subject: RE: BS: Non-Islamic Terrorist in Norway?
From: Keith A of Hertford
Date: 25 Jul 11 - 06:55 AM

Thank you Jack, but they have done this before and more than once.

Subject: RE: BS: Non-Islamic Terrorist in Norway?
From: Keith A of Hertford
Date: 25 Jul 11 - 06:53 AM

Lox, I believe you do have personal grounds to attack me, but I refer to attacking me as opposed to one my posts.
"It is just like Keith to" is saying something about me personally.
Also, I did not say what you claimed it was just like me to say, and it would be totally unlike me to say such a thing.
Your post was a dishonest smear.

Subject: RE: BS: Non-Islamic Terrorist in Norway?
From: Jack the Sailor
Date: 25 Jul 11 - 06:48 AM

Lox,I think you are being unfair to Keith. I don't think he said what you originally accused him of. I think you made an honest mistake though. You both sre taking this too far.

Subject: RE: BS: Non-Islamic Terrorist in Norway?
From: Lox
Date: 25 Jul 11 - 06:41 AM

"I provided evidence of your personal attack yesterday 24 Jul 11 - 03:59 PM "

No you didn't.

A personal attack is an attack on somebody based on personal grounds.

You on the other hand have lied about me twice in the space of about 5 posts.


Do you retract you lies or do you wish to define yourself by them?

Subject: RE: BS: Non-Islamic Terrorist in Norway?
From: Lox
Date: 25 Jul 11 - 06:36 AM

EDL Blame Norwegian immigration policy for the recent massacre.


link here


Interesting parallel with the views expressed by some mudcatters

Subject: RE: BS: Non-Islamic Terrorist in Norway?
From: Keith A of Hertford
Date: 25 Jul 11 - 06:34 AM

Lox, you have wisely distanced yourself from Jim's post.
I provided evidence of your personal attack yesterday 24 Jul 11 - 03:59 PM

Subject: RE: BS: Non-Islamic Terrorist in Norway?
From: Don(Wyziwyg)T
Date: 25 Jul 11 - 06:34 AM

One thing this guy has done is take the heat off the Murdochs. They must be thinking all their birthdays have come at once.

You would almost wonder............

Don T.

Subject: RE: BS: Non-Islamic Terrorist in Norway?
From: Lox
Date: 25 Jul 11 - 06:08 AM

"Still personal attack quoted as requested."

should read:

Still no personal attack quoted as requested.

Subject: RE: BS: Non-Islamic Terrorist in Norway?
From: Lox
Date: 25 Jul 11 - 06:07 AM

"Jim and Lox,
"no opinion offered of you as a person - just your repulsively racist ideas,""

You have attributed this post to 2 people.

And failed to provide evidence of a personal attack from me.


This is misleading.


Correct it or characterize yourself as wilfully dishonest.


Still personal attack quoted as requested.

Just a false assertion.


2 counts of dishonesty.


Will you be correcting this or compounding it with further dishonesty?

Subject: RE: BS: Non-Islamic Terrorist in Norway?
From: Keith A of Hertford
Date: 25 Jul 11 - 05:22 AM

Jim and Lox,
"no opinion offered of you as a person - just your repulsively racist ideas,"

I have never expressed a "repulsively racist idea," or you would be able to produce it.
Instead of challenging anything I actually say, you attack me personally.
You call me nasty names like racist.
That is nasty, personal and false.
It is also against the rules of our forum.

Subject: RE: BS: Non-Islamic Terrorist in Norway?
From: Lox
Date: 25 Jul 11 - 05:03 AM

Good Article.

Charlie Brooker

.

Subject: RE: BS: Non-Islamic Terrorist in Norway?
From: GUEST,Voltaire
Date: 25 Jul 11 - 04:31 AM

Anders Behring Breivik - A European Declaration of Independence

"The ideology that has taken over Western Europe goes most commonly by the name of "Political Correctness." Some people see it as a joke. It is not. It is deadly serious. It seeks to alter virtually all the rules, formal and informal, that govern relations among people and institutions. It wants to change behaviour, thought, even the words we use."

Voltaire - I disapprove of what you say, so shut up you racist homophobic bastard.

Subject: RE: BS: Non-Islamic Terrorist in Norway?
From: Lox
Date: 25 Jul 11 - 04:31 AM

Nope - No personal attack.

A personal attack is one where a person is attacked on personal grounds.


If Keith can't show what personal grounds he has been attacked on then there is no personal attack.


So Keith, quote it or retract it.


Keith operates on the basis of insinuation. This is very clear.

Subject: RE: BS: Non-Islamic Terrorist in Norway?
From: Jim Carroll
Date: 25 Jul 11 - 04:27 AM

Sorry - should have written Islamophobic - confusing it with another of Ake's little weaknesses, though I have no doubt he would fit that in if he could.
Once again, no opinion offered of you as a person - just your repulsively racist ideas, but I suppose your persisting in making it "personal" saves you the trouble of acknowleging those ideas.
Notice the Times makes a British fanatics connection to the killings this morning.
Jim Carroll

Subject: RE: BS: Non-Islamic Terrorist in Norway?
From: GUEST,Voltaire
Date: 25 Jul 11 - 04:14 AM

" you appear to be sympathysing with that racicist cause - no surprise there- as does Voltaire"

Oh, the irony!

Subject: RE: BS: Non-Islamic Terrorist in Norway?
From: Keith A of Hertford
Date: 25 Jul 11 - 04:12 AM

OR homophobic!

Subject: RE: BS: Non-Islamic Terrorist in Norway?
From: Keith A of Hertford
Date: 25 Jul 11 - 04:09 AM

Jim,you are entitled to hold your opinions of me, wrong though they are.
You are NOT entitled to pollute this forum with your wrong opinions of me as a person.
It is specifically against the rules of Mudcat.
The Vols have enough to deal with just now or I would ask for it to be deleted again.

To be clear, I am no racist, have never expressed a racist opinion or made a racist statement here or anywhere.
You have been asked many times to produce such, but you can not because you are wrong.

Subject: RE: BS: Non-Islamic Terrorist in Norway?
From: Jim Carroll
Date: 25 Jul 11 - 03:51 AM

"I am not supporting or excusing the crime"
No you're not - you are doing something worse. You are suggesting that he, and others, have cause for complaint multuculturalism and immigration, and you appear to be sympathysing with that racicist cause - no surprise there- as does Voltaire.
"If that were the case he would surely have selected Muslim young people to massacre"
He is, as you said yourself, unhinged - as far as I'm concerned all racists are irrational - I don't expect any reason in their behaviour - he seeks attention for his cause.
What this incident proves beyond doubt is that acts of terrorism are not confined to one race or religion
Keith - you and you alone have made these discussions 'personal' - those of us who have found your racist and homophobic arguments offensive have attacked what you have said, not you. You have slithered behind a "personal attack" defense each time - defend your repulsive ideas and don't try and hide from their consequences.
Jim Carroll

Subject: RE: BS: Non-Islamic Terrorist in Norway?
From: Teribus
Date: 25 Jul 11 - 01:27 AM

Stringsinger

I asked what terrorist groups apart from islamic fundamentalist ones use that description for their attacks - NOT who would or who might.

George Tiller? - did those carrying out the attack kill themselves?
McVeigh did not die in the attack he did his damndest to evade capture and live. So neither were "Martyrdom operations".

Subject: RE: BS: Non-Islamic Terrorist in Norway?
From: Teribus
Date: 25 Jul 11 - 12:39 AM

The percentage of the population you speak of Voltaire is quite high. Reported on BBC this morning Breivik is expected to plead "Not Guilty" - If that is so the man obviously wants his day in court. As will all terrorists he could have achieved objective that without taking a single life.

Subject: RE: BS: Non-Islamic Terrorist in Norway?
From: GUEST,Voltaire
Date: 25 Jul 11 - 12:26 AM

If you keep the lid screwed down the kettle will sometimes explode.
Some percentage of Norway's population is unhappy with the demographic changes that have occurred in recent decades.
If political correctness prevents expression of opinion then even some moderates will be attracted towards the extreme right.

(ducks for cover)