Skew Ball and 'Miss Grizzle'

Subject: Skew Ball and 'Miss Grizzle'
From: GUEST,Johnny an Madra
Date: 27 Oct 11 - 08:41 AM

A chairde,

Anyone have any information on who "Miss Grizzle" is in certain versions of Skew Ball, please (c.f., Alex Mayne Printing, Belfast)?   I've gone through as much contemporary records (stud books, etc) as I have been able to find, but cannot find any reference to this grey mare.   Is she genuine, or merely a ballad printer's fancy?

Can anyone throw any light on this for me?

Go raibh céad maith agaibh uile.

Johnny an Madra.

Subject: RE: Skew Ball and 'Miss Grizzle'
From: GUEST,999
Date: 27 Oct 11 - 09:53 AM

"' When that they came to the middle of the course, Skewball and his rider began a discourse, Come, my brave rider, come tell unto me, How far is Miss Grizzle this moment from me.'

This is a Manchester (England) broadside (Bebbington, No. 206). In this version the mare with whom Skewball races is called 'Miss Grizzle."

That is from

http://www.traditionalmusic.co.uk/negro/folk-songs%20-%200162.htm

Subject: RE: Skew Ball and 'Miss Grizzle'
From: GUEST
Date: 27 Oct 11 - 09:55 AM

You might also look for Stewball, Stew Ball. I first heard the song in Canada over fifty years ago and it was sung as Stewball.

Subject: RE: Skew Ball and 'Miss Grizzle'
From: GUEST,999
Date: 27 Oct 11 - 09:59 AM

That guest was me.

There is an excellent article about the horse at

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Skewball

Subject: RE: Skew Ball and 'Miss Grizzle'
From: GUEST,Don Wise
Date: 27 Oct 11 - 11:05 AM

I'm hazy on the words,not having sung it for years, but I always thought the name was 'Miss Grizelda' or the grey Grizelda.

Subject: RE: Skew Ball and 'Miss Grizzle'
From: MGM·Lion
Date: 27 Oct 11 - 11:22 AM

It's certainly Griselda in the DT version, the Steeleye Span one which is, I think, based on the one Bert Lloyd used to sing; though it renders "Arthur Marvel was the man who brought the Skewball over" as "Oh the marvel was the man..."! Surely the point is that Skewball was an English horse, brought over to race the native Irish champion, the grey Griselda, on whom the local sportsmen 'laid their purses'.

It also sounds on the record as if they are singing "Sporting plains of Kielder" [Tim Hart mentioned this ambiguity in his notes], though of course it is Kildare, where the Curragh racecourse is situated. Kielder is a place in the Lake District, site of a famous reservoir, and formerly home of a well-known hunt iirc.

~M~

Subject: RE: Skew Ball and 'Miss Grizzle'
From: GUEST,leeneia
Date: 27 Oct 11 - 12:27 PM

I remember the phrase 'Monahan grey mare' from a version I heard at a friend's house. Monahan was her owner.

How about Miss Griswold for a name?

It's been mentioned before that a skewbald horse is brown and white, and Stewball is probably a corruption of Skewbald.

Subject: RE: Skew Ball and 'Miss Grizzle'
From: GUEST,999
Date: 27 Oct 11 - 12:42 PM

Are they what we in North America refer to as pintos?

Subject: RE: Skew Ball and 'Miss Grizzle'
From: MGM·Lion
Date: 27 Oct 11 - 01:19 PM

One sort of pinto:    a skewbald is a horse with brown patches on predominantly white fur; while a piebald is a white horse with black patches. I think both of these could be subsumed under 'pinto'?

~M~

Subject: RE: Skew Ball and 'Miss Grizzle'
From: Jack Campin
Date: 27 Oct 11 - 04:14 PM

Grisell or Grizel was once used a girl's name in Scotland. Not common but not outlandish either.

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Grizel_Baillie

Subject: RE: Skew Ball and 'Miss Grizzle'
From: Dave Sutherland
Date: 28 Oct 11 - 03:23 AM

"Kielder is a place in the Lake District, site of a famous reservoir, and formerly home of a well-known hunt iirc."
Mike, not wishing to be pedantic but Northumberland would have a substantially greater claim to Kielder than The Lakes.
(Mind when I first heard the song, from Lloyd, I thought that he sang "the sporting plains that killed her!!)

Subject: RE: Skew Ball and 'Miss Grizzle'
From: MGM·Lion
Date: 28 Oct 11 - 03:27 AM

Sorry, Dave ~~ of course Northumberland. What can 'legendary-pedant' me have been thinking of!

☹☹☹☹☹☹☹☹☹☹

Subject: RE: Skew Ball and 'Miss Grizzle'
From: MGM·Lion
Date: 28 Oct 11 - 03:31 AM

"I remember the phrase 'Monahan grey mare' from a version I heard at a friend's house. Monahan was her owner."

Or could it have meant that she came from Co Monaghan, leneeia?
~Michael~

Subject: RE: Skew Ball and 'Miss Grizzle'
From: GUEST,leeneia
Date: 28 Oct 11 - 11:10 AM

Could be. Evidently what I heard all those years ago was a song by the band Patrick Street. You can see all the words in this thread:

http://mudcat.org/thread.cfm?threadid=8253

In my collection of tunes I have a "Monaghan Jig." I thought it would be fun to combine that with the song about the Monaghan grey mare someday.

Subject: RE: Skew Ball and 'Miss Grizzle'
From: GUEST,leeneia
Date: 28 Oct 11 - 02:59 PM

Jack, thanks for the note about the name Grizel. I didn't know that.

Subject: RE: Skew Ball and 'Miss Grizzle'
From: GUEST,Johnny an Madra
Date: 30 Oct 11 - 04:51 PM

*Bump*

So, anyone any pointers on "Miss GRizzle"?

A real horse, or a ballad printer's flight of fancy?