BS: Stolen Greek art

Subject: RE: BS: Stolen Greek art
From: Donuel
Date: 08 Dec 11 - 09:04 PM

There are certainly more ethical and honest people here than you would ever find at an exclusive curator convention.

Museums are not just a business...

They are high stakes well heeled cut throat criminal enterprises of whom the members all speak a dialect of 'art speak'.

Yes Virginia there are exeptions.

Perhaps you know how the finest people (many are the biggest sponsors of NPR) and the former gov of Pennsylvania Randel stole several billions of dollars of post Impresssionist art.


Ah, if only justice were done at the pointing of my finger, scores of mansions would go vacant.

Then there are is the dungeon world of private collectors in which the most prized item is the most illegal item. Fortunatly they too are mortal, but there are cases in which the treasures are never recovered in order to protect the "good name" of the thief.

Subject: RE: BS: Stolen Greek art
From: EBarnacle
Date: 08 Dec 11 - 07:54 PM

M, you miss the point. If an object is legally acquired the question is what rights the successors have.

Subject: RE: BS: Stolen Greek art
From: MGM·Lion
Date: 08 Dec 11 - 05:28 PM

~~~ "Getting back to the question of artists' rights" ~~~

WHY?

That's a separate subject, on which there have been numerous threads. What, pray, has it got to do with Ancient Greek artefacts and the most appropriate place where they should now be housed?

This isn't jut thread drift: it's idiotic irrelevancy.

~M~

Subject: RE: BS: Stolen Greek art
From: EBarnacle
Date: 08 Dec 11 - 12:20 PM

Getting back to the question of artists' rights, this was in the new today.

Artists and their families welcome Government's decision on the Artist's Resale Right
   
LONDON.- The families and beneficiaries of UK artists stand to benefit from millions in royalties from 1 January 2012 with the full implementation of the Artist's Resale Right.

This important Right pays artists royalties each time their work is resold by an auction house or art dealer. The Right has applied to living artists since 2006, and DACS (the Design and Artists Copyright Society) has paid artists nearly £14 million in royalties in the last six years.

Artist Damien Hirst explains why he thinks the Artist Resale Right is so important: 'I'm pleased that the Artist's Resale Right is finally be extended to heirs and beneficiaries as in most other EU states. We need to recognise financially their role in preserving art. They spend a lot of time and energy on this and they should have some support.'

The full implementation means that artists can leave this Right to their families with the royalties helping support the vital work carried out by estates to preserve the artist's legacy after their death (and for 70 years following).

In addition, the Government has also just announced changes to the administration of the Right which will remove the requirement for artists' beneficiaries to be of UK or EU nationality.

This amendment means that the Artist's Resale Right can be passed on effectively to many more heirs and beneficiaries. The financial support from the Right will be enormously helpful in recognising the work that heirs and beneficiaries do through conserving artists' estates including the costs of storage, conservation, cataloguing, research, restoration, assessment of provenance, and the identification of fakes.

A second change to the Right will mean that artists from some countries outside the European Economic Area (EEA) will no longer enjoy reciprocal resale rights, and UK artists will no longer receive royalties from some countries outside of the EEA.

Gilane Tawadros, Chief Executive of DACS says: 'We are delighted that artists' families and beneficiaries will now benefit from this important Right. In addition, the Government's decision to rectify a mistake in the original legislation brings the UK into line with the rest of Europe meaning that many more heirs and beneficiaries can benefit.'

Subject: RE: BS: Stolen Greek art
From: MGM·Lion
Date: 05 Dec 11 - 05:23 AM

〠〠〠〠〠

☹☹☹☹☹☹☹☹☹☹

Subject: RE: BS: Stolen Greek art
From: kendall
Date: 05 Dec 11 - 04:18 AM

I'll do the jokes.

Subject: RE: BS: Stolen Greek art
From: MGM·Lion
Date: 05 Dec 11 - 12:27 AM

What make-up do you use on your mind, K? Revlon? Max Factor? ...

~M~

Subject: RE: BS: Stolen Greek art
From: kendall
Date: 04 Dec 11 - 08:03 PM

RIGHT!

Subject: RE: BS: Stolen Greek art
From: Bert
Date: 04 Dec 11 - 05:22 PM

In Kendall's case it's probably songs.

Subject: RE: BS: Stolen Greek art
From: Raedwulf
Date: 04 Dec 11 - 05:09 PM

So what is your mind full of when it isn't made up? ;-)

Subject: RE: BS: Stolen Greek art
From: kendall
Date: 04 Dec 11 - 04:00 PM

Once my mind is made up, I'm full of indecision.

Subject: RE: BS: Stolen Greek art
From: Joe Offer
Date: 04 Dec 11 - 02:41 AM

Kendall says: Let me put it this way: No one has changed his mind on this subject on either side.

I guess that's right in my case. I'm still undecided, and think that both Greece and the UK have a legitimate claim on the Elgin Marbles.

-Joe-

Subject: RE: BS: Stolen Greek art
From: JohnInKansas
Date: 04 Dec 11 - 01:05 AM

The November 2011 issue of Smithsonian Magazine has an interesting article that traces the acquisition of a statue by the Getty Museum (mentioned above) and it's eventual recent repatriation back to Italy.

I'm not sure how accessible it is, but just in case, you can try looking at A Goddess Goes Home Smithsonian Magazine, November 2011.

A sidebar in the print magazine also appears as a separate article at the website:

ACQUISITION GUIDELINES

U.S. MUSEUMS HAVE CLEARER GUIDELINES ON acquiring ancient art today than just a few years ago.

In 2008, both the Association of Art Museum Directors (AAMD) and the American Association of Museums (AAM) recommended that museums acquire no object unless it was exported legally after 1970 or had left before 1970 the country in which it was discovered. That was the year a Unesco accord recognized a nation's right to control cultural property created or found within its borders.

AAM guidelines state that when documentation is unclear, a museum "should be transparent about why this [acquisition] is an appropriate decision." AAMD guidelines say a museum may use "an informed judgment" but "must carefully balance" the risks and benefits of acquiring the object.

Museums once had "an approach to collecting ancient art which was 'Don't buy anything that you know to be stolen," says Maxwell L. Anderson, CEO of the Indianapolis Museum of Art and chairman of an AAMD task force on cultural property. "I said we have to flip that to, 'Don't buy anything unless you know it's not stolen."

AAMD and AAM differ in scope—the former includes some 200 museum directors, the latter some 18,000 museums—but they cooperated to ensure "there was no daylight between their guidelines," says Erik Ledbetter, chief of staff of the AAM guideline task force.

A policy adopted by the Smithsonian regents in 1973 states that museum officials must determine that an object considered for acquisition was not "unethically acquired from its source, unscientifically excavated, or illegally removed" from the country in which it was found, and, further, that it entered the United States legally. The provenance of acquired objects, the policy says, "shall be a matter of public record."

John

Subject: RE: BS: Stolen Greek art
From: Bert
Date: 03 Dec 11 - 02:14 PM

Yes I did. AT first I said 'return the originals' then I changed that to
'is doesn't matter much who keeps the originals.

When I saw them in The British Museum they were on the floor in a hallway, just propped up against the wall. Not quite as impressive as their modern display.

Subject: RE: BS: Stolen Greek art
From: kendall
Date: 03 Dec 11 - 11:44 AM

Let me put it this way: No one has changed his mind on this subject on either side.

Subject: RE: BS: Stolen Greek art
From: MGM·Lion
Date: 02 Dec 11 - 11:54 PM

No-one seems to have mentioned the superb National Museum in Athens, whose collection comes from all over. They have, e.g, superbly displayed, that wonderful 'Mask of Agamemnon;. Hands up who thinks it should be sent back to Mykonos.

& should The Louvre send back the Nike of Samothrace?

[cont p 94]

~M~

Subject: RE: BS: Stolen Greek art
From: Raedwulf
Date: 02 Dec 11 - 05:13 PM

It's obviously not perfectly clear to me, sir, or I wouldn't have commented so! ;-)

I'll agree with the hurrah for Lord Elgin. I've seen them too... :)

Subject: RE: BS: Stolen Greek art
From: kendall
Date: 02 Dec 11 - 03:23 PM

What I meant is perfectly clear. Old notions die hard. You may infer that I still think they should be returned, or you may infer that I think they shouldn't. Take your pick.

Some excellent points have been made here on both sides, and I'm glad I don't have to decide which side wins.

I've said all I have to say on this subject, but I will close with this; I'm glad Lord Elgin saved the works, and I got to enjoy them in the British museum. I'm not easily awed, but that museum did it.

Subject: RE: BS: Stolen Greek art
From: Silas
Date: 02 Dec 11 - 12:05 PM

Perhaps it's not just the Greeks who have lost their marbles....

Subject: RE: BS: Stolen Greek art
From: Jack the Sailor
Date: 02 Dec 11 - 12:00 PM

Kendall, I don't think you are going far enough with this. The marble statues were not made at the Acropolis. They should be returned directly to the people who are living on the sites of the workshops in which they were made. That is unless the people at the marble quarry ask for them. What if the Marble came from what is now Turkey? Would that make the sale legit?

Subject: RE: BS: Stolen Greek art
From: Raedwulf
Date: 02 Dec 11 - 11:53 AM

Not sure what you mean, kendall, but I'm assuming you still think they should be given back on, it must be said, emotional grounds, rather than rational ones.

Subject: RE: BS: Stolen Greek art
From: kendall
Date: 02 Dec 11 - 08:35 AM

As I said, old notions die hard.

Subject: RE: BS: Stolen Greek art
From: Raedwulf
Date: 02 Dec 11 - 08:01 AM

Don - others have already refuted your reply to my point quite correctly. I did a quick google & Wiki (Yes! I know!) came up with this.

As a result of years of negotiation, the nascent Greek state was finally recognized under the London Protocol in 1830.

Ancient Greece is a cultural term within a geographical area that is not reflected by the current boundaries of the modern Greek state. I'm only a casual student of Classical history (I prefer other periods), but as far as I'm aware, in Ancient Greece there were always many states, centred around "cities", usually in some kind of alliance, often shifting, and not uncommonly at war with other cities & alliances. It hardly conforms to the picture of a modern state, does it? (Although given the recent rioting... ;-))

Yes, modern Greece has grounds to make a claim, but I do not believe those claims warrant a return of the Marbles, even ignoring the perfectly legitimate & much stronger claim of the British Museum.

Subject: RE: BS: Stolen Greek art
From: MGM·Lion
Date: 02 Dec 11 - 12:23 AM

Anyone repeating that old chestnut, K, ought to be "in denial" ~ up to his neck!.

~M~

Subject: RE: BS: Stolen Greek art
From: Jack the Sailor
Date: 02 Dec 11 - 12:19 AM

Is it anywhere near The Nile? Or the Black Nile? Or the Pink Nile other wise known as the P-Nile with flows hard and strong when the Heart of Africa pulses and flows with the spring rains flowing down Viagra Falls.

Subject: RE: BS: Stolen Greek art
From: kendall
Date: 01 Dec 11 - 07:59 PM

Denial is a river in Egypt.

Subject: RE: BS: Stolen Greek art
From: Jack the Sailor
Date: 01 Dec 11 - 02:24 PM

"So, who benefited from the sale of the marbles? The Greeks? The people who created them? "

The people who created them had been dead 2000 years. The Greeks who lived in Athens at the time did lose out on their opportunity to turn them into whitewash, the fate of thousands of other Greek and Roman statues. So maybe the current Greeks should get a couple of shipping containers of modern day paint. That would more than cover the commercial loses.

Subject: RE: BS: Stolen Greek art
From: GUEST,Silas
Date: 01 Dec 11 - 01:49 PM

"So, who benefited from the sale of the marbles? The Greeks? The people who created them?"

Well, let's see shall we. It certainly was not Elgin, he lost a fortune on the sale. Can't be the people who created them, they were pretty old when they were sold and the creators were pushing upo the daisies by then.

The Greeks. Well, Yes! of course.If they had not been rescued by Elgin, the Greeks would not be benefitting from the exposure of their own culture that the display of these items shows.

But mainly, it is everyone who has benefitted - if Elgiin hadn't done what he did, they would not exist. Period.

Subject: RE: BS: Stolen Greek art
From: kendall
Date: 01 Dec 11 - 01:04 PM

So, who benefited from the sale of the marbles? The Greeks? The people who created them?

Subject: RE: BS: Stolen Greek art
From: MGM·Lion
Date: 01 Dec 11 - 12:24 AM

Don ~ the works looted [indeed the mot juste] by the Nazis were indeed, by any definition, 'stolen'. The artefacts legally purchased, from those with the then current title to sell them, by Lord Elgin, by the very same token were not.

It would be disingenuous in the extreme on your part to pretend you do not apprehend or comprehend this distinction.

~M~

Subject: RE: BS: Stolen Greek art
From: EBarnacle
Date: 30 Nov 11 - 11:35 PM

Actyually, if you listen to my upset Macedonian friend, the current Macedonia has no right to the name because it was not a part of the Macedonian empire and did not share the language or culture of the 'pure' Greek Macedonians.

Subject: RE: BS: Stolen Greek art
From: Jack the Sailor
Date: 30 Nov 11 - 11:35 PM

Greece was the cultural and political center of an empire under Alexander. But after Romans, not so much.

Subject: RE: BS: Stolen Greek art
From: Joe Offer
Date: 30 Nov 11 - 09:04 PM

Good question, Greg. Did Greece exist as a unified nation before the Turks left? Before the Turks, I believe Greece was part of the Roman Empire. I don't believe that Greece was ever a unified, independent nation until the 1920s.

-Joe-

Subject: RE: BS: Stolen Greek art
From: Greg B
Date: 30 Nov 11 - 07:26 PM

"What was the capital of this Greek State that existed 3000 years ago?"

Diner.

Subject: RE: BS: Stolen Greek art
From: GUEST,Teribus
Date: 30 Nov 11 - 07:17 PM

"The Greek nation has existed since more than 3000 years ago."

Really?? What was the capital of this Greek State that existed 3000 years ago? 3000 years ago there may well have been something that we recognise as "Greek Culture" but alas no Greek Nation, modern day Greece as we know it consisted of a group of city states, so no Greece never existed as a state 3000 years ago. If 3000 years ago you went up to a Spartan, a Macedonian, an Athenian and told him he was a Greek he would have the foggiest notion what you were on about.

Subject: RE: BS: Stolen Greek art
From: Don(Wyziwyg)T
Date: 30 Nov 11 - 06:25 PM

""I have to disagree, Don, sorry. As I & several others have pointed out, the Greek nation didn't exist at the time the Marbles were purchased, and later might never have had the chance to moan about our purchase had we not done so then.""

The Greek nation has existed since more than 3000 years ago.

The fact that it was under occupation and control by the Turks doesn't alter that.

Or are you saying that modern Germany has the right to keep all the works of art looted by Adolf & Co?

Don T.

Subject: RE: BS: Stolen Greek art
From: Greg F.
Date: 30 Nov 11 - 05:23 PM

"Annexation" of Texas pushed by slaveholders, then phony war against Mexico & claim lands as part of the treaty/spoils of war.

The old U.S.A. rope-a-dope.

Subject: RE: BS: Stolen Greek art
From: gnu
Date: 30 Nov 11 - 04:39 PM

"As for things being stolen, Isn't that pretty much what happened to California?"

How so?

Subject: RE: BS: Stolen Greek art
From: Bert
Date: 30 Nov 11 - 03:45 PM

The marbles were bought and paid for.

So was "The Louisiana Purchase". I hope that France doesn't come and claim that back.

As for things being stolen, Isn't that pretty much what happened to California?

Subject: RE: BS: Stolen Greek art
From: Jack the Sailor
Date: 30 Nov 11 - 02:04 PM

"if the Lincoln memorial was in a state of decay, would it be ok to restore it?"

Not if that meant Art Pope paying his taxes.

Subject: RE: BS: Stolen Greek art
From: Pete Jennings
Date: 30 Nov 11 - 12:27 PM

The Lincoln Memorial was finished in 1920 (Wikipedia 1), the Parthenon in 432 BC (Wikipedia 2).

Hardly comparable, me thinks.

Subject: RE: BS: Stolen Greek art
From: kendall
Date: 30 Nov 11 - 07:58 AM

Doug, I said "As far as I'm concerned." Of course you are welcome to join in.
Joe, you have a point. However, what if the Lincoln memorial was in a state of decay, would it be ok to restore it?

Subject: RE: BS: Stolen Greek art
From: Joe Offer
Date: 30 Nov 11 - 03:33 AM

I have wondered if it would be structurally possible to display the Elgin Marbles in their original locations. I tend to think it wouldn't work, because the buildings have deteriorated since the marbles were taken down. When ancient buildings are partial ruins, I'm not sure it's right to restore them to their original glory. Restoration could tend to turn them into replicas. The buildings should be preserved in their current state of deterioration, but I don't think I'd like to see them looking perfect again.

Wikipedia has a photo of the Acropolis here (click). As you can see, there are two large cranes that tower over the Parthenon, the temple of Athena. Those cranes were there when I was in Athens in 2003, and I think they're still there. Wikipedia has a 2010 photo of the Parthenon covered by scaffolding. The buildings are in sad shape. I had the feeling I was on a construction site as I walked around the Acropolis.

But the marbles are in very good condition, thanks to the British Museum. The display of the Elgin Marbles is magnificent. I guess I'm very lucky to have been able to see both the Parthenon and the Elgin Marbles. Both visits were wonderful experiences.

-Joe-

Subject: RE: BS: Stolen Greek art
From: Doug Chadwick
Date: 30 Nov 11 - 02:21 AM

Sorry. I didn't know I wasn't allowed to join in the fun.

Subject: RE: BS: Stolen Greek art
From: kendall
Date: 29 Nov 11 - 07:51 PM

As far as I care, Joe can close it now. We have had a spirited exchange of opinions, and there is nothing new to be said.

Subject: RE: BS: Stolen Greek art
From: Greg B
Date: 29 Nov 11 - 07:19 PM

P.S.: Might make a decent song.

Subject: RE: BS: Stolen Greek art
From: Greg B
Date: 29 Nov 11 - 07:18 PM

Well, Kendall, it's your friggin' horse.

Subject: RE: BS: Stolen Greek art
From: gnu
Date: 29 Nov 11 - 07:13 PM

Kendall... I think the flies have left the carcass.

Subject: RE: BS: Stolen Greek art
From: kendall
Date: 29 Nov 11 - 02:20 PM

Don't you all think this horse has been beaten to death?

Subject: RE: BS: Stolen Greek art
From: Doug Chadwick
Date: 28 Nov 11 - 11:51 PM

Lord Elgin, a Scottish nobleman …….
…… place them in the British museum. …….
…… the British government refuses to return them.

…… why shouldn't England be charged ……


I suppose you could blame the whole of Britain, but why pick on the English for something done by a Scot.


DC