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Lyr Req: Demon Lover in New England?

DigiTrad:
HOUSE CARPENTER
THE DEMON LOVER
THE HOUSE CARPENTER (II)


Related threads:
(origins) Origins: Question about a verse in 'Daemon Lover' (8)
Joe Rae's Daemon Lover (4)
Lyr Req: Child 243 on Bronson (16)
(origins) Origin: House Carpenter (27)
Lyr Req: House Carpenter (#243 - Jean Ritchie) (17)
Pentangle's House Carpenter (8)
Lyr Req: cyril tawney's carpenter's wife (#243) (18)


John Minear 06 Dec 11 - 02:10 PM
GUEST,henryp 06 Dec 11 - 05:21 PM
Brian Peters 07 Dec 11 - 06:37 AM
GUEST 07 Dec 11 - 07:29 AM
Brian Peters 07 Dec 11 - 07:55 AM
GUEST 07 Dec 11 - 08:31 AM
John Minear 07 Dec 11 - 08:48 AM
Brian Peters 07 Dec 11 - 03:45 PM
John Minear 07 Dec 11 - 04:46 PM
John Minear 08 Dec 11 - 10:20 AM
Mick Pearce (MCP) 08 Dec 11 - 11:12 AM
John Minear 08 Dec 11 - 12:18 PM
Mick Pearce (MCP) 08 Dec 11 - 01:15 PM
John Minear 08 Dec 11 - 02:18 PM
Bettynh 08 Dec 11 - 02:44 PM
Mick Pearce (MCP) 08 Dec 11 - 03:03 PM
Brian Peters 08 Dec 11 - 03:29 PM
Brian Peters 08 Dec 11 - 03:47 PM
Mick Pearce (MCP) 08 Dec 11 - 04:40 PM
John Minear 08 Dec 11 - 10:36 PM
Brian Peters 09 Dec 11 - 05:16 AM
John Minear 09 Dec 11 - 11:47 AM
Bettynh 09 Dec 11 - 02:00 PM
John Minear 10 Dec 11 - 11:30 AM
GUEST,julia L 10 Dec 11 - 05:22 PM
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Subject: Lyr Req: Demon Lover in New England?
From: John Minear
Date: 06 Dec 11 - 02:10 PM

I'm looking for versions of Child #243, "The Demon Lover"/"The House Carpenter" that have been found in the New England region. The "literature" suggests that this was a wide-spread and popular ballad, but I am not turning up very much at all. What am I missing? I am looking for as much detail as possible, so I'm interested in specific collections, particular versions (with singer identification, location and date), literary references, and recorded editions of this ballad, and of course, lyrics. I am aware that there are a number of Canadian collections, but I am limiting my search at this point to the U.S. I'm especially interested in finding a version from Massachusetts. I'm guessing that the documentation on this ballad for New England is not as extensive as one might imagine. Thanks for your help.


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Subject: RE: Lyr Req: Demon Lover in New England?
From: GUEST,henryp
Date: 06 Dec 11 - 05:21 PM

Andy Irvine put the words of the Child Ballad to a tune of his own on his CD Abocurragh, as the song seems to have died out in Britain and Ireland. It was one of the nominations for Best Traditional Track in the BBC Folk Awards 2011. In the sixties, Andy says, he sang the words to the House Carpenter tune.


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Subject: RE: Lyr Req: Demon Lover in New England?
From: Brian Peters
Date: 07 Dec 11 - 06:37 AM

John, do you have access to Bronson? In case you don't, that lists only two versions from New England:
#53 (four verses), from Mrs. Susie Carr Young, Brewer, Me, recorded by George Hertzog in 1928 and published in Barry, Eckstrom & Smith 'British Ballds from Maine' (1929).
#92 (11 verses) from Orlon Melville, Charlestown NH, recorded by Helen Hartness Flanders and published in 'The New Green Mountain Songster' (1939).

Of Bronson's 145 versions from oral tradition, the vast majority are from the Appalachians, with Virginia very strongly represented. There are also a few from the Midwest (WI, MI, MO, AR) and a tiny number from the West (CA, OR). I don't see any at all from the Canadian maritimes, in contrast to many old British ballads.

I think you have to put this distribution down to immigration patterns. The ballad was pretty much extinct in the British Isles by the 20th century (give or take an example each from Southwest England, Ireland and Scotland), but most of the earlier versions listed in Child were from Lowland Scotland - although Child's oldest examples are English broadsides. Since the most prominent immigrant group to have carried ballads into the Appalachians were the 'Scotch-Irish' (people of lowland Scots and Northern English origin who had settled in Ulster and then crossed the Atlantic), it isn't too surprising to find the 'Housecarpenter' / 'Demon Lover' most prevalent there, although its new lease of life is still pretty amazing. New England (as far as my limited knowledge extends) was settled originally by English puritans, with most of its English population having East Anglian roots - a region where there is no history of the ballad having been recorded.

I understand that the popularity of the 'House Carpenter' version of the ballad owes much to a broadside published by De Marsan in New York in the 1850s - you could speculate that this broadside must have been distributed mostly in the Appalachian states where the ballad was already well known.


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Subject: RE: Lyr Req: Demon Lover in New England?
From: GUEST
Date: 07 Dec 11 - 07:29 AM

a Scottish version of the Demon Lover can be heard on the School of Scottish Studies website--Tobar an Dualchais


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Subject: RE: Lyr Req: Demon Lover in New England?
From: Brian Peters
Date: 07 Dec 11 - 07:55 AM

"a Scottish version of the Demon Lover can be heard on the School of Scottish Studies website--Tobar an Dualchais"

Two, actually - although it sounds as if John Rae's version may owe something to Child. Thanks for that link.


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Subject: RE: Lyr Req: Demon Lover in New England?
From: GUEST
Date: 07 Dec 11 - 08:31 AM

Brian--- typing in John Rae in the S.O.S.S.site brings up no results. The one result gives Andrew Stewart when the ballad title is typed in.


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Subject: RE: Lyr Req: Demon Lover in New England?
From: John Minear
Date: 07 Dec 11 - 08:48 AM

It's good to hear from you, Brian. I was just going through the recorded versions I have of this ballad and had just finished listening to your fine rendition on "Songs of Trial and Triumph." I do have access to Bronson, thanks to Dick Greenhaus at CAMSCO, and I had noticed the same thing that you have pointed out, that out of 145 versions that he had found by 1966, only the two you mention above were from the New England area. I did find a possible third example as I went back over this material. It is the very last example that he gives, #145, from a Library of Congress recording sung by Allen Johnson in Portland (?), Oregon, and collected by William L. Alderson. It says that he learned this ballad in Calais, Maine. There is no date. This is actually a fairly complete version, with ten verses.

Also, in his "Addendum" in Vol. IV, Bronson lists six additional examples all taken from Helen Hartness Flanders' ANCIENT BALLADS TRADITIONALLY SUNG IN NEW ENGLAND, III (I, B, K, E, H, & J.) However, no information is given on any of these, probably because of copyright issues. This book is not online, is out of print, very expensive in used form and currently unavailable to me from the library. I would welcome additional information on these six examples, including the lyrics.

Brian, I found particularly helpful your discussion of the immigrant patterns and the areas from which these folks came. You mention in the liner notes to your album that this ballad was first published in 1657 (as a broadside?). That means it would have been current during the early settlement of Massachusetts. But as you point out, the people who settled the Massachusetts Bay Colony were not likely ballad singers. I wonder about the sailors who brought them over as a source. What happened to this ballad between 1657 and it's reappearance in print 200 years later in New York in the 1850's?

Can anyone post a copy of the De Marsan (New York) broadside? I understand that it might be available in a journal article somewhere. This would be very helpful.

So, what, if anything, has been discovered about this ballad in the New England area in the forty-five years since Bronson's publication? I'll be interested to see what we can turn up.


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Subject: RE: Lyr Req: Demon Lover in New England?
From: Brian Peters
Date: 07 Dec 11 - 03:45 PM

"typing in John Rae in the S.O.S.S.site brings up no results"

My mistake: it's Joe Rae and the ballad is listed as 'Daemon Lover'.


"this ballad was first published in 1657 (as a broadside?)"

Yes, John - with a very lengthy title beginning 'A Warning for Married Women', and initialled by Lawrence Price, rhymester of the day. This is the same text as Child 243 A.

But there's no reason to suppose that this version ever went to Massachsetts. You should look at Clinton Heylin's 'Dylan's Daemon Lover' a somewhat rambling and shambolically edited account that nonetheless contains some good research and gems of information.

According to Child, he next known copy after the 1657 broadside is his version B, from 'The Rambler's Garland' (1785). However Heylin found the same version, titled 'The Ship Carpenter's Wife', in 'A Collection of Diverting Songs' ca. 1737, and he speculates that the author of this volume used a pre-existing broadside as the source, possibly pushing it back to the early 18th or even late 17th C. However this version is considerably different from the A text.

I've pasted Heylin's transcription of the De Marsan broadside below. This is printed in the Journal of American Folklore v18 p207, but I can't access that. De Marsan was a reissue of an earlier copy attributed to J. Andrews of New York, supposedly in the Harris collection at Brown University, but not appearing in their online list.

I'll get back to the discussion tomorrw.


De Marsan broadside:

Well met, well met, my own true love
Long time have I been seeking thee
I'm lately come from the Salt Seas
And all for the sake, love, of thee

I might have married a king's daughter
You might have married her, cried she
For I am married to a house-carpenter
And a fine young man is he!

If you will forsake your House-Carpenter
And go along with me
I will take you to where the grass grows high
On the banks of old Tennessee!

If I forsake my House-Carpenter
And go along with thee
What have you got to keep me upon
And keep me from misery?

Says he, I've got six ships at sea
All sailing to dry land
One hundred & ten of your own countrymen
Love, they shall be at your command

She took her babe upon her knee
And kissed it one, two and three
Saying, Stay at home, my darling sweet babe
And keep your father's company!

They had not sailed four weeks or more
Four weeks, or scarcely three
When she thought of her darling sweet babe at home
And she wept most bitterly

Says he, "Are you weeping for gold, my love
Or are you weeping for fear
Or are you weeping for your House-Carpenter
That you left and followed me?

I am not weeping for gold she replied
Nor am I weeping for fear
But I am weeping alone for my sweet little babe
That I left with my house-carpenter

Oh, dry up your tears, my own true love
And cease your weeping, cried he
For soon you'll see your own happy home
On the banks of old Tennessee!

They had not sailed five weeks or more
Five weeks or scarcely four
When the ship struck a rock and sprang a leak
And they were never seen any more

A curse be on the sea-faring men
Oh cursed be their lives
For while they are robbing the House-Carpenter
And coaxing away their wives


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Subject: RE: Lyr Req: Demon Lover in New England?
From: John Minear
Date: 07 Dec 11 - 04:46 PM

"On the banks of the old Tennessee"! Where did that come from? Thanks for putting up De Marsan's broadside for us, Brian. Is there any information on where the earlier "Andrews" copy came from? When did the "Scots-Irish" immigration begin? If they brought their ballads with them, would this predate these broadside publications?

Is Heylin's work on line by any chance?

I have found out a bit more information on the Flanders' collection, thanks to this very comprehensive site:

http://members.chello.nl/r.vandijk2/ChildBallads240-249.html

This site gave me the names of the singers who sang "The House Carpenter" for Flanders, but it does not give any information on where they were from or any dates or background information.

Apparently she collected this song (several different times or in several different versions in some cases from the same person?) from the following people:

Belle Luther Richards, Edward Ballinger Price, Elmer George (3), Maynard Raynolds, Mrs. Alice Mancour (2), Mrs. Myra Daniels, Mrs. Wales, Oscar Degreenia, and Lena Bourne Fish (3). I would be very interested to know where these people lived.

In fact, I do have further information on Lena Bourne Fish. Frank and Anne Warner also collected "The House Carpenter" from her. They published this in their book TRADITIONAL AMERICAN FOLK SONGS (1984), with music. There is also a snippet recording of this (the first several verses) on "Lena Bourne Fish" (Folktrax 922) - thanks again to CAMSCO. She was recorded by the Warners in East Jeffrey, New Hampshire. I will have some more to say about this version soon.


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Subject: Lyr Add: THE SHIP CARPENTER (Lena Bourne Fish)
From: John Minear
Date: 08 Dec 11 - 10:20 AM

Here is Lena Bourne Fish's version of "The Ship Carpenter" (C #243) from the Anne and Frank Warner Collection TRADITIONAL AMERICAN FOLK SONGS (1984).

"Well met, well met, my pretty fair maid."
"Not so very well met," said she.
"For I am married to a ship carpenter,
And a very fine man is he."

"If you will forsake your ship carpenter
And go along with me,
I will teak you where the grass grows green
On the banks of a sweet valee."

"If I forsake my ship carpenter,
And go along with thee,
What have you there to entertain me on,
To keep me from slavery?"

"I have ships all in the bay,
And plenty more upon land,
Five hundred and ten of as fine young men,
They are all at your command."

She took her babe all in her arms,
And gave him kisses three.
"Stay at home, stay at home with your father dear,
For he is good company."

She had not sailed six weeks on the sea,
I know not more than three,
Before this fair lady began for to mourn,
And she mourned most pitifully.

"Now do you mourn for gold," he said,
"Or do you mourn for me?
Or do you mourn for your ship carpenter
That you left to follow me?"

"I do not mourn for gold," she cries,
"Nor do I mourn for thee!
But I do mourn for my ship carpenter
And my pretty sweet babee"

In the heavens there rose a big storm cloud,
And how the waves did roar!
At the bottom of the ship there sprang a leak
And her mourning was heard no more.

The music for this song is in the Warner book. It was recorded in East Jaffrey, New Hampshire, in July of 1940. Mrs. Fish did not give any specific information on where she got her version of this ballad. She was born in 1873 in Black Brook, in the Adirondacks of New York. Her father's family came from Scotland in the early 1700's and settled in Rhode Island and then moved to Cape Cod. Her mother's family were of English origin and her mother's grandfather was a colonel in the British Army. She probably learned songs from her father, especially her Irish songs, and perhaps some from her Uncle Butler, and perhaps some from the men who worked with her father. (Information from the Warners' book)

While it is impossible to be specific about exactly where this version "came from", it seems clear that it is a New England version of "The Demon Lover."


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Subject: RE: Lyr Req: Demon Lover in New England?
From: Mick Pearce (MCP)
Date: 08 Dec 11 - 11:12 AM

I've done a multiple field search on Roud for child 243 and that show up the following:

Vermont: 16
Connecticut: 3
NH: 17
RI: 2

(May not be exact for NH; I had to skip a few other New... in the list while counting).

Many come from Flanders: Ancient Ballads Traditionally Sung In New England.

Mick


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Subject: RE: Lyr Req: Demon Lover in New England?
From: John Minear
Date: 08 Dec 11 - 12:18 PM

Thanks Mick. That gives us a sense of how these were spread out. If anybody has Flanders' book, I'd welcome additional information. J.


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Subject: RE: Lyr Req: Demon Lover in New England?
From: Mick Pearce (MCP)
Date: 08 Dec 11 - 01:15 PM

If it helps to locate the copies, these are the entries I pulled out from Roud. I have the one from Warner's Traditional American Folk Songs and I can post that later if you want. Sadly I don't have the (4-vols) Flanders collection, but it's quite likely that someone here does.

Mick



Roud #14 (=Child #243) In New England

Vermont


BANKS OF CLAUDY, THE
Source        Bulletin of the Folksong Society of the Northeast 7 (1934) p.11        
Performer        Sullivan, Mrs. E.M.        
Place collected        USA : Vermont : Springfield        
Collector        Barry, Phillips        
----
BANKS OF CLAUDY, THE
Source        Bulletin of the Folksong Society of the Northeast 6 (1933) pp.7-8        
Performer        Sullivan, Mrs. E.M.        
Place collected        USA : Vermont : Springfield        
Collector        Flanders, Helen Hartness        
----
BANKS OF CLADY, THE
Source        Flanders, Ancient Ballads Traditionally Sung in New England 3 pp.287-321 (version n1)        
Performer        Sullivan, Ellen M.        
Place collected        USA : Vermont : Springfield        
Collector        Flanders, Helen Hartness        
----
BANKS OF CLADY, THE
Source        Flanders, Ancient Ballads Traditionally Sung in New England 3 pp.287-321 (version n2)        
Performer        Sullivan, Ellen M.        
Place collected        USA : Vermont : Springfield        
Collector        Barry, Phillips        
----
HOUSE CARPENTER, THE
Source        Flanders, Ancient Ballads Traditionally Sung in New England 3 pp.287-321 (version d)        
Performer        George, Elmer        
Place collected        USA : Vermont : East Calais        
Collector        Flanders, Helen Hartness        
----
HOUSE CARPENTER, THE
Source        Flanders, Ancient Ballads Traditionally Sung in New England 3 pp.287-321 (version j)        
Performer        Mancour, Mrs. Alice        
Place collected        USA : Vermont : Bellows Falls        
Collector        Olney, Marguerite        
----
HOUSE CARPENTER, THE
Source        Flanders, Garland of Green Mountain Song (1934) pp.80-82        
Performer        George, Elmer        
Place collected        USA : Vermont : East Calais        
Collector        Flanders, Helen Hartness        
----
HOUSE CARPENTER, THE
Source        Library of Congress AAFS recording 3713 B        
Performer        George, Elmer        
Place collected        USA : Vermont : East Calais        
Collector        Lomax, Alan & Helen Hartness Flanders        
----
HOUSE CARPENTER
Source        Helen Hartness Flanders Collection (Middlebury College, Vermont) C4 A 04        
Performer        Daniels, Mrs. Myra        
Place collected        USA : Vermont : East Calais        
Collector        Flanders, Helen Hartness        
----
HOUSE CARPENTER
Source        Helen Hartness Flanders Collection (Middlebury College, Vermont) C4 A 04        
Performer        George, Elmer        
Place collected        USA : Vermont : West Montpelier        
Collector        Flanders, Helen Hartness        
----
HOUSE CARPENTER
Source        Helen Hartness Flanders Collection (Middlebury College, Vermont) D8 B 02        
Performer        George, Elmer        
Place collected        USA : Vermont : North Montpelier        
Collector        Flanders, Helen Hartness        
----
HOUSE CARPENTER
Source        Helen Hartness Flanders Collection (Middlebury College, Vermont) D53 A 19        
Performer        George, Elmer        
Place collected        USA : Vermont : North Montpelier        
Collector        Flanders, Helen Hartness        
----
HOUSE CARPENTER
Source        Helen Hartness Flanders Collection (Middlebury College, Vermont) D34 A 13        
Performer        Mancour, Mrs. Alice        
Place collected        USA : Vermont : Bellows Falls        
Collector        Flanders, Helen Hartness        
----
HOUSE CARPENTER
Source        Helen Hartness Flanders Collection (Middlebury College, Vermont) T12 A 18        
Performer        Mancour, Mrs. Alice        
Place collected        USA : Vermont : Bellows Falls        
Collector        Flanders, Helen Hartness        
----
HOUSE CARPENTER
Source        Helen Hartness Flanders Collection (Middlebury College, Vermont) C6 A 09        
Performer        Moses, Ruth        
Place collected        USA : Vermont : North Woodstock        
Collector        Flanders, Helen Hartness        
----
HOUSE CARPENTER
Source        Helen Hartness Flanders Collection (Middlebury College, Vermont) C1 B 03        
Performer        Wales, Mrs.        
Place collected        USA : Vermont : Burlington        
Collector        Flanders, Helen Hartness        
----

Connecticut
HOUSE CARPENTER, THE
Source        Flanders, Ancient Ballads Traditionally Sung in New England 3 pp.287-321 (version h)        
Performer        Degreenia, Oscar        
Place collected        USA : Connecticut : West Cornwall        
Collector        Flanders, Helen Hartness        
----
HOUSE CARPENTER
Source        Helen Hartness Flanders Collection (Middlebury College, Vermont) T1 A 02        
Performer        Degreenia, Oscar        
Place collected        USA : Connecticut : West Cornwall        
Collector        Flanders, Helen Hartness        
----
HOUSE CARPENTER
Source        Helen Hartness Flanders Collection (Middlebury College, Vermont) T1 A 09        
Performer        Degreenia, Oscar        
Place collected        USA : Connecticut : West Cornwall        
Collector        Flanders, Helen Hartness        
----


New Hampshire
HOUSE CARPENTER, THE
Source        Flanders etc., New Green Mountain Songster (1939) pp.95-97        
Performer        Merrill, Orlon        
Place collected        USA : New Hampshire : Charlestown        
Collector        Flanders, Helen Hartness        
----
SHIP CARPENTER, THE
Source        Warner, Traditional American Folk Songs (1980) pp.137-138        
Performer        Fish, Lena Bourne        
Place collected        USA : New Hampshire : East Jaffrey        
Collector        Warner, Anne & Frank        
----
YOUNG TURTLE DOVE
Source        Flanders & Olney, Ballads Migrant in New England pp.132-133        
Performer                
Place collected        USA : New Hampshire : Pittsburg        
Collector        Olney, Marguerite        
----
HOUSE CARPENTER, THE
Source        Flanders, Ancient Ballads Traditionally Sung in New England 3 pp.287-321 (version a)        
Performer        Merrill, Orlon        
Place collected        USA : New Hampshire : Charlestown        
Collector        Flanders, Helen Hartness        
----
HOUSE CARPENTER, THE
Source        Flanders, Ancient Ballads Traditionally Sung in New England 3 pp.287-321 (version e2)        
Performer        Fish, Mrs. Lena Bourne        
Place collected        USA : New Hampshire : East Jaffrey        
Collector        Flanders, Helen Hartness        
----
HOUSE CARPENTER, THE
Source        Flanders, Ancient Ballads Traditionally Sung in New England 3 pp.287-321 (version f)        
Performer        Luther, Sidney        
Place collected        USA : New Hampshire : Pittsburg        
Collector        Olney, Marguerite        
----
HOUSE CARPENTER, THE
Source        Flanders, Ancient Ballads Traditionally Sung in New England 3 pp.287-321 (version i)        
Performer        Richards, Mrs. Belle        
Place collected        USA : New Hampshire : Colebrook        
Collector        Olney, Marguerite        
----
HOUSE CARPENTER, THE
Source        Flanders, Ancient Ballads Traditionally Sung in New England 3 pp.287-321 (version k)        
Performer        Reynolds, Maynard        
Place collected        USA : New Hampshire : Pittsburg        
Collector        Olney, Marguerite        
----
HOUSE CARPENTER, THE
Source        Flanders, Ancient Ballads Traditionally Sung in New England 3 pp.287-321 (version l)        
Performer        Wales, Mrs.        
Place collected        USA : New Hampshire : Pittsburg        
Collector        Flanders, Helen Hartness        
----
SHIP CARPENTER, THE
Source        Flanders, Ancient Ballads Traditionally Sung in New England 3 pp.287-321 (version e1)        
Performer        Fish, Mrs. Lena Bourne        
Place collected        USA : New Hampshire : East Jaffrey        
Collector        Flanders, Helen Hartness / Marguerite Olney        
----
SHIP CARPENTER, THE
Source        Folktracks 922-90 (`Whisky in the Jar')        
Performer        Fish, Lena Bourne        
Place collected        USA : New Hampshire : East Jaffrey        
Collector        Warner, Anne & Frank        
----
YOUNG TURTLE DOVE, THE
Source        Flanders, Ancient Ballads Traditionally Sung in New England 3 pp.287-321 (version g)        
Performer                
Place collected        USA : New Hampshire        
Collector                
----
SHIP CARPENTER
Source        Helen Hartness Flanders Collection (Middlebury College, Vermont) D58 B 07        
Performer        Fish, Lena Bourne        
Place collected        USA : New Hampshire : East Jaffrey        
Collector        Flanders, Helen Hartness        
----
SHIP CARPENTER
Source        Helen Hartness Flanders Collection (Middlebury College, Vermont) D59 B 10        
Performer        Fish, Lena Bourne        
Place collected        USA : New Hampshire : East Jaffrey        
Collector        Flanders, Helen Hartness        
----
SHIP CARPENTER
Source        Helen Hartness Flanders Collection (Middlebury College, Vermont) D19 A 23        
Performer        Fish, Lena Bourne        
Place collected        USA : New Hampshire : East Jaffrey        
Collector        Flanders, Helen Hartness        
----
HOUSE CARPENTER
Source        Helen Hartness Flanders Collection (Middlebury College, Vermont) C2 A 07        
Performer        Merrill, Orlon        
Place collected        USA : New Hampshire : Charlestown        
Collector        Flanders, Helen Hartness        
----
HOUSE CARPENTER
Source        Helen Hartness Flanders Collection (Middlebury College, Vermont) D13 A 07        
Performer        Raynolds, Maynard        
Place collected        USA : New Hampshire : Pittsburg        
Collector        Flanders, Helen Hartness        
----
HOUSE CARPENTER
Source        Helen Hartness Flanders Collection (Middlebury College, Vermont) D23 B 05        
Performer        Richards, Belle Luther        
Place collected        USA : New Hampshire : Colebrook        
Collector        Flanders, Helen Hartness        
----


Rhode Island
DAEMON LOVER, THE
Source        Flanders, Ancient Ballads Traditionally Sung in New England 3 pp.287-321 (version m)        
Performer        Price, Edith Ballenger        
Place collected        USA : Rhode Island : Newport        
Collector        Olney, Marguerite        
----
DAEMON LOVER
Source        Helen Hartness Flanders Collection (Middlebury College, Vermont) D46 A 13        
Performer        Price, Edward Ballinger        
Place collected        USA : Rhode Island : Newport        
Collector        Flanders, Helen Hartness


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Subject: RE: Lyr Req: Demon Lover in New England?
From: John Minear
Date: 08 Dec 11 - 02:18 PM

Thanks a lot, Mick. I am assuming that there are repeats here rather than different versions by the same person. If somebody finds out that this is not the case, let us know. J.


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Subject: RE: Lyr Req: Demon Lover in New England?
From: Bettynh
Date: 08 Dec 11 - 02:44 PM

From the Wikipedia article on Scotch-irish:

"The first trickle of Scotch-Irish settlers arrived in New England. Valued for their fighting prowess as well as for their Protestant dogma, they were invited by Cotton Mather and other leaders to come over to help settle and secure the frontier. In this capacity, many of the first permanent settlements in Maine and New Hampshire, especially after 1718, were Scotch-Irish and many place names as well as the character of Northern New Englanders reflect this fact. The Scotch-Irish brought the potato with them from Ireland (although the potato originated in South America, it was not known in North America until brought over from Europe). In Maine it became a staple crop as well as an economic base.[28]"

Jaffrey and Charlestown would fit the "Indian frontier" description at the time. But Pittsburgh and Colebrook are so far north, they'd be frontiers of Montreal more than of anything that later became American.


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Subject: RE: Lyr Req: Demon Lover in New England?
From: Mick Pearce (MCP)
Date: 08 Dec 11 - 03:03 PM

John - repeats certainly. The index lists the contents of sources. So for example the versions in the published Ancient Ballads..., are duplicates of those in the archive at Middlebury. And the repeats of performer are probably versions collected at different times.

Mick


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Subject: RE: Lyr Req: Demon Lover in New England?
From: Brian Peters
Date: 08 Dec 11 - 03:29 PM

Right, John, back to the fray after a couple of hours spent with Bronson...

"On the banks of the old Tennessee"! Where did that come from?"

This looks like a regional amendment to "the banks of Italy" found in all of Child's Scots texts. That there are no such banks, or comparable locations, in the older English texts (Child 243 A & B) suggests that De Marsan is not derived directly from the latter.

Looking through all of Bronson's North American copies, this is one of the features susceptible more than any other to variation. The promised banks may be those of 'Sweet liberty'. 'Dundee', 'the low country', or the 'salt salt sea', as well as many more or less nonsensical substitutions like 'sweet Marie', 'sweet Vallee', 'Aloe Dee', 'Daiee', 'Otie', 'Murree' and 'Lacolee'. The 'Banks of Claudy', mentioned in Mrs. Sullivan's version from VT, were presumably imported from another song. The most common is the 'Banks of Sweet Willie', with over twenty examples. I counted just four 'Banks of Tennessee', which suggests that the influence of the De Marsan broadside was limited or distant in time, but there are at least a dozen 'Banks of Italy', harking back to early 19th century Scots oral tradition.

Other features of the ballad very common in North American variants but absent from de Marsan are the 'Hills of Heaven / Hell' (at least 32 examples), which are first sighted in the version from Scott's 'Minstrelsy' (Child F), and the scene where the eloping woman dresses herself in finery, frequently being seen to "shine like glittering gold", which isn't an exact match for any of the Scots copies, but recalls the 'glamour' cast over her in Child E, v8 (Motherwell's MS).

On the other hand the incremental repetitions of De Marsan are matched in over seventy different American versions, usually as:
'They had not been on the sea two (three) weeks,
I'm sure it was not three (four)'
,
which is slightly different from the De Marsan formulation.

Last verses following De Marsan's, along the lines of: 'A curse be on the sea-faring men' (the 'sea-going train' in two versions!), are reasonably common but by no means universal.

Other American variants include archaisms that may go back to older British tradition, such as sailing for two leagues, rather than weeks (Bronson #18), the 'dark and dreary eye' in Bronson #102 (recalling 'dark, dark grew his eerie looks' in Child G), and the name 'George Alliss' (suggestive of 'James Harris?') in Bronson #141 - the aforementioned version from Springfield VT.

All of which supports the idea that the De Marsan broadside, although it may have contributed to the ballad's popularity in America, was not the only means by which it was spread. There may have been other broadsides, of course, but some of those variations look a lot more like the result of oral transmission over generations. In that context, it's interesting that Lena Bourne Fish's father was a Scot - and thanks for posting her text.

"Is Heylin's work on line by any chance?"

Not that I know of.


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Subject: RE: Lyr Req: Demon Lover in New England?
From: Brian Peters
Date: 08 Dec 11 - 03:47 PM

"The first trickle of Scotch-Irish settlers arrived in New England... many of the first permanent settlements in Maine and New Hampshire, especially after 1718, were Scotch-Irish"

That might help to explain those Maine and NH versions in Flanders. However the English Puritans were already well established in Massachusetts by that point. Meanwhile, most of the Scotch-Irish went further South (same wiki article):

"From 1710 to 1775, over 200,000 people emigrated from Ulster to the 13 Colonies, from Maine to Georgia. The largest numbers went to Pennsylvania. From that base some went south into Virginia, the Carolinas and across the South, with a large concentration in the Appalachian region; others headed west to western Pennsylvania, Ohio, Indiana, and the Midwest...

The Scotch-Irish moved up the Delaware River to Bucks County, and then up the Susquehanna and Cumberland valleys, finding flat lands along the rivers and creeks to set up their log cabins, their grist mills, and their Presbyterian churches... With large numbers of children who needed their own inexpensive farms, the Scotch-Irish avoided areas already settled by Germans and Quakers and moved south, down the Shenandoah Valley, and through the Blue Ridge Mountains into Virginia. These migrants followed the Great Wagon Road from Lancaster, through Gettysburg, and down through Staunton, Virginia, to Big Lick (now Roanoke), Virginia. Here the pathway split, with the Wilderness Road taking settlers west into Tennessee and Kentucky, while the main road continued south into the Carolinas."


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Subject: Tune Add: THE SHIP CARPENTER (Lena Bourne Fish)
From: Mick Pearce (MCP)
Date: 08 Dec 11 - 04:40 PM

John - sorry didn't notice you'd the version you'd already posted was Lena Bourne Fish one when I suggested I post it! Here's the tune for completeness anyway.

Mick



X:1
T:The Ship Carpenter
B:Warner: Traditional American Folk Songs pp137-138, 1984
S:Collected by the Warners from Lena Bourne Fish, 1941
O:East Jeffrey, New Hampshire, USA
M:C
L:1/4
K:G
D/|G> D G A|c/c/(B/A/) G
w:"Well met, well met, my pret-ty fair_ maid."
D/D/|G/G/ A B (A/G/)|d2 z
w:"Not so ve-ry well met," said_ she.
(B/c/)|d d c/B/A/G/|c B/A/ (F/D/)
w:"For_ I am mar-ried to a ship car-pen-ter,_
F/G/|A/B/(A/F/) D (E/F/)|D2 z|]
w:And a ve-ry fine_ man is_ he."


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Subject: RE: Lyr Req: Demon Lover in New England?
From: John Minear
Date: 08 Dec 11 - 10:36 PM

Mick, thanks for the tune for Lena Bourne Fish's version. I don't know how to do that kind of stuff. And thanks, Betty and Brian for the information on the Scots-Irish migrations. I hadn't realized that they were up in the Northeast as well as down here (I'm in Central Virginia) in the southern Appalachians. I'll take a look at the Wikipedia article. Also, our senator from VA, Jim Webb, wrote a pretty good book on the Scots-Irish called BORN FIGHTING - HOW THE SCOTS IRISH SHAPED AMERICA (2004).

Brian, I used to live not all that far from "the banks of the Tennessee" River, but it is pretty far inland. Does this phrase show up in some other songs? I haven't had time to check this, but it sounded familiar. It's curious how this might have gotten attached to this ballad. It sounds good and the banks of the Tennessee are lovely if you like TVA lakes!

Betty, your mention of the frontiers of Montreal raises the question of the relationship of the New England versions of this ballad to those further north in the Maritimes and the rest of eastern Canada. My wife's family was from Maine but I don't know much at all about the northeast, and what influenced what. Perhaps it is somewhat arbitrary to draw too clear a line between the U.S. and Canada with regard to these ballads.


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Subject: RE: Lyr Req: Demon Lover in New England?
From: Brian Peters
Date: 09 Dec 11 - 05:16 AM

Isn't Google wonderful!

Fiddlin' John Carson sings Banks of the old Tennessee

And while we're at it, Fiddlin' John sings Sunny Tennessee

I also found a version - possibly minstrel? - on traditionalmusic.co.uk, with the chorus:

"Ho, ho, ho, them banjos,
It would fill your heart with glee,
On a moonlight night, when the stars are shining bright,
'Way down upon the banks of Tennessee."

In the case of 'The Housecarpenter' I suspect that the Tennessee was chosen for its rhymability (is that a word?) rather than the merits of the waterway itself.


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Subject: RE: Lyr Req: Demon Lover in New England?
From: John Minear
Date: 09 Dec 11 - 11:47 AM

Fiddlin' John Carson certainly brings back my sense of living near the banks of the Tennessee in Roane County, TN! Thanks, Brian. The "Ho, ho" song has an 1889 copyright on it by a D.A. Crane, with words and music by James J. Mulcahy. It may be based on an earlier minstrel tune but I was not able to find either the original of this or anything earlier. This comes considerably after the broadside.

I found the GRAHAM'S ILLUSTRATED magazine (Vol 53) that Child referred to and in which he found the two verses he quotes from the broadside. It is here:

http://books.google.com/books?id=Ba3PAAAAMAAJ&pg=PA277&dq=On+the+banks+of+the+old+Tennessee&hl=en&ei=rA_iTs2xFsP00gGGnYGFBg&sa=X

And here is Barry's note about this:

http://books.google.com/books?id=pR1hFqzIfGAC&pg=PA238&dq=On+the+banks+of+the+old+Tennessee&hl=en&ei=4RLiTsOGNebi0QG0xsDdBQ&sa=X

Here is another song that uses the phrase "on the banks of the old Tennessee", from the George Boswell collection of FOLK SONGS OF MIDDLE TENNESSEE. It is called "Take Me Home."

http://books.google.com/books?id=QB2Dc9zeoWwC&pg=PA146&dq=On+the+banks+of+the+old+Tennessee&hl=en&ei=0gviTrznOObf0QH5h9DwBQ&sa=X

Here are two examples of early usage of the phrase "on the banks of the (old) Tennessee." First a nice short story from Vol 56 of Blackwood's Edinburgh magazine from Sept. 1844:

http://books.google.com/books?id=2fZFAAAAcAAJ&pg=PA278&dq=On+the+banks+of+the+old+Tennessee&hl=en&ei=rA_iTs2xFsP00gGGnYGFBg&sa=X

And then a story about Sam Houston moving to Maryville, Tennessee, from Vol 28 of THE CENTURY magazine from 1884. (Maryville happens to be my own hometown.)

http://books.google.com/books?id=EMdZAAAAYAAJ&pg=PA495&dq=On+the+banks+of+the+old+Tennessee&hl=en&ei=dBTiTpi9Iajc0QGqkd3cBQ&sa=X

And finally, a fascinating Cajun French version of "The House Carpenter" which also contains this "Tennessee" line:

http://books.google.com/books?id=y51Pcgyqj14C&pg=PA155&dq=On+the+banks+of+the+old+Tennessee&hl=en&ei=dBTiTpi9Iajc0QGqkd3cBQ&sa=X

Google Books sure is fun!


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Subject: RE: Lyr Req: Demon Lover in New England?
From: Bettynh
Date: 09 Dec 11 - 02:00 PM

We tend to forget that Britain was fighting France over North America at the same time it was fighting the newly named Americans. This map (from the Wikipedia article on French and Indian War) shows the status as of 1783. Pittsburgh and Colebrook, NH are right on that line between "always British" and "recently aquired by the British." If Scotch-Irish settlers were of use to the British authorities as the holders of the outlying settlements, those would be the places they'd settle. The American Revolutionary War battles over Quebec and Montreal went through Vermont and pretty much bypassed the areas noted in the list of ballad sources in NH. I can't speak for the Vermont sources. There were naval movements from the St. Lawrence and Lake Champlain, so certainly sailors could have been involved there.


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Subject: RE: Lyr Req: Demon Lover in New England?
From: John Minear
Date: 10 Dec 11 - 11:30 AM

According to my calculations, so far we have noted versions of "The House Carpenter" collected in the following NE states from these people:

MAINE
Mrs. Susie Carr Young, of Brewer, ME
Allen Johnson, learned in Calais, ME

VERMONT
Elmer George, East Calais, VT
Mrs. Alice Mancour, Bellows Falls, VT
Mrs. Myra Daniels, East Calais, VT
Ruth Moses, North Woodstock, VT
Mrs. Wales, Burlington, VT

NEW HAMPSHIRE
Bell Luther Richards, Colebrook, NH
Maynard Reynolds, Pittsburg, NH
Sidney Luther, Pittsburg, NH
Mrs. Lena Bourne Fish, East Jaffrey, NH
Orion Merrill, Charlestown, NH

CONNECTICUT
Oscar Degreenia, West Cornwall, CONN

RHODE ISLAND
Edith Ballenger Price, Newport, RI
Edward Ballinger Price (?)


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Subject: RE: Lyr Req: Demon Lover in New England?
From: GUEST,julia L
Date: 10 Dec 11 - 05:22 PM

Regarding the line between Maine and the Maritimes, it is very fuzzy. Both woodsmen and mariners crossed the border with regularity, some even had families on both sides! Songs and folkways traveled back and forth.
Also, remember, Maine did not become a state until 1820. Until that time it was under the jurisdiction of Massachusetts, so all the older records refer to the area under that name.

I just came across a version of the demon Lover from Cape Breton if you are interested.

best- Julia


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Subject: RE: Lyr Req: Demon Lover in New England?
From: John Minear
Date: 10 Dec 11 - 09:54 PM

Thanks for the information on Maine and the Maritimes, Julia. And yes, tell us about he version from Cape Breton. In fact, lets expand our search north and also south to at least include New York state.

I made it to the UVA library today and was able to get hold of one of the Flanders books. I'll have more to say about it tomorrow. I'll have a little more information on the singers, a few recording dates, and some observations on the songs themselves. One that I can share now is that most of these versions are very similar to each other. I can't tell that much about the tunes because I don't read music. Perhaps someone else will be able to get hold of this material (Flanders) and help us with the music.

What I got today is Volume III of ANCIENT BALLADS TRADITIONALLY SUNG IN NEW ENGLAND (1963). I think that this contains the most comprehensive collection made by Flanders and most of what she had published in previous books. Please correct me on this if I am mistaken.


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Subject: RE: Lyr Req: Demon Lover in New England?
From: Mick Pearce (MCP)
Date: 11 Dec 11 - 07:23 AM

Here's what the Roud index has to say about New York and New Brunswick. It looks like 4 added from NY and 1 from NB.

Mick




New York

SHIP'S CARPENTER, THE
Source        Cazden, Abelard Folk Song Book pt.1 (1958) pp.82-83        
Performer        Edwards, George        
Place collected        USA : New York : Catskill mountains        
Collector                
----
SHIP'S CARPENTER, THE
Source        Cazden, Folk Songs of the Catskills pp.271-275        
Performer        Edwards, George        
Place collected        USA : New York : Grahamsville        
Collector                
----
HOUSE CARPENTER, THE
Source        Flanders, Ancient Ballads Traditionally Sung in New England 3 pp.287-321 (version b)        
Performer        Moses, Mr.        
Place collected        USA : New York : Woodstock        
Collector        Flanders, Helen Hartness        
----
HOUSE CARPENTER
Source        Library of Congress AAFS recording 3667 A2 & B1        
Performer        Montonyea, Mort        
Place collected        USA : New York : Sloatsburg        
Collector        Halpert, Herbert        
----
HOUSE-CARPENTER, THE
Source        Cutting, Lore of an Adirondack County (1944) pp.69-71        
Performer        Cornwright, Mrs. Esther        
Place collected        USA : New York : Lewis        
Collector        Cutting, Edith E.        

Also included was a version by Aunt Molly Jackson recorded in NY, but I've excluded that

New Brunswick
HOUSE CARPENTER, THE
Source        Creighton, Folksongs from Southern New Brunswick pp.14-16        
Performer        Ireland, William        
Place collected        Canada : New Brunswick : Elgin        
Collector        Creighton, Helen        
----
HOUSE CARPENTER, THE
Source        Helen Creighton collection (Nova Scotia Archives) AR 5742 / AC 2343 /        
Performer        Ireland, W.E.        
Place collected        Canada : New Brunswick : Elgin        
Collector        Creighton, Helen


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Subject: Lyr Add: THE HOUSE CARPENTER (trad Vermont)
From: John Minear
Date: 11 Dec 11 - 09:33 AM

Mick, thanks for keeping us up to date with Roud. That is very helpful.

I'm going to start with the versions that Flanders collected in Vermont. Here is the one she got from Elmer George of East Calais, Vermont (no date).

The House Carpenter

"Well met, well met, my pretty fair maid,"
"No so very well met," said she,
"For I am married to a house carpenter,
And a very fine man is he;
For I am married to a house carpenter,
And a very fine man is he."

"If you forsake your house carpenter
And go along with me,
I will take you there where the grass grows green
On the banks of the sweet vallee."
(Repeat last two lines of each verse.)

"If I forsake my house carpenter
And go along with thee,
What have you there to entertain me on,
To keep me from slavery?"

"Oh, I have ships all in the bay
And plenty more upon land,
Five hundred and ten of as fine young men.
They are all at your command."

She took her babe all in her arms
And gave him kisses three.
"Stay at home, stay at home with your own father dear,
For he's good companee."

She went upstairs to dress herself
Most beautiful to behold.
'Twas then she walk-ed the streets all along,
And she shone like the glittering gold.

She had not sailed six weeks on the sea,
Oh, no, not more than three,
Before this fair lady began for to mourn
And she mourned most bitterlee.

"What, do you mourn for gold," he said,
"Or do you mourn for me,
Or do you mourn for your house carpenter
That you left to follow me?"

"I do not mourn for gold," she cries;
"I do not mourn for thee
But I do mourn for my house carpenter
And likewise my fair babee."

She had not sailed eight weeks on the sea,
Oh, no, not more than four,
Before that hole in the ship sprang a leak
And this mourner was heard no more.

Flanders says that when Mr. George began to sing this song for her, "different members of his family within doors joined in and were echoed by the little child playing on the lawn outside..." (A GARLAND OF GREEN MOUNTAIN SONG, 80)


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Subject: Lyr Add: THE HOUSE CARPENTER (trad Vermont)
From: John Minear
Date: 11 Dec 11 - 10:41 AM

Sung by Mrs. Alice Mancour of Bellows Falls, Vermont, October 17, 1942

The House Carpenter

"Well met, well met, my pretty fair maid
Well met, well met," said he,
"For I have come from the sea, salt sea,
And it's all for the sake of thee."

"If you have come from the sea, salt sea,
You are very much to blame,
For I am married to a house carpenter,
And I'm sure he's a very fine man.

"If you will leave your house carpenter
And go along with me,
I will take you where the grass grows green
On the strand of the Sweet Dundee."

She had not gone two months and a half,
I'm sure it was not three,
Before this young lady was found for to weep,
And she wept most bitterly.

"Oh, is it for my gold that you weep,
Or is it for my store?"
"It is for my darling little babe
That I never shall see any more."

She had not sailed three months and a half,
I'm sure it was not four,
Before a hole in the ship sprang a leak,
And the moans was heard no more.
Before a hole in the ship sprang a leak,
And the moans was hear no more.


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Subject: Lyr Add: THE HOUSE CARPENTER (trad Vermont)
From: John Minear
Date: 11 Dec 11 - 11:11 AM

From Mrs. Wales of Burlington, Vermont, in early 1932, learned from her grandmother, Mrs. Bissell, and also her sisters. Mrs. Bissell and her sisters "sang a great deal while living on the farm of their father, Phineas Moulton, at Randolph, Vermont, before 1860."

They had not sailed a month or more,
A month or scarcely three,
When she began to weep and lament
And to mourn most bitterlie.

"O do you weep for gold, " he said,
"Or do you weep for me,
Or do you weep for your house carpenter
That you left to come with me?"

"I do not weep for gold," she said,
"I do not weep for thee;
But I do weep for my house carpenter
Whom I left to come with thee."

They had not sailed a month or more,
A month or scarcely four,
When a hole in the ship, and the ship sprang a leak
And her weeping was heard no more.


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Subject: RE: Lyr Req: Demon Lover in New England?
From: John Minear
Date: 11 Dec 11 - 12:03 PM

The version by Mrs. Myra Daniels of East Calais, VT, which is in the Flanders Collection at Middlebury College, is not included in ANCIENT BALLADS. Also, the location of Ruth Moses is a bit confusing. Roud has her in North Woodstock, VT. But in ANCIENT BALLADS, Flanders has her in New York City, and her father, from whom she got her version, is in Woodstock, NH. I'm going to put her with the NH group. If anybody has a better clarity on this let me know.


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Subject: Lyr Add: THE HOUSE CARPENTER (trad New Hampshire)
From: John Minear
Date: 11 Dec 11 - 12:33 PM

From Charlestown, New Hampshire, we have this version by Orlon Merrill (1931). He learned this "in logging woods in northern New Hampshire."

The House Carpenter

"I might have married a king's daughter fair,
And she would have married me,
But I have come across the sal', salt sea,
And it's all on account of thee."

"If you could have married a king's daughter fair,
I am sure that you're to blame,
Because I am married to a house carpenter,
And I'm sure he's a nice young man."

"But if you will forsake your house carpenter
And go along with me,
I will take you to the place where the grass grows green
On the banks of the sweet Will-lea."

"But if I forsake my house carpenter,
To go along with you,
What have you there to maintain me on,
And keep me from slavery?"

"I have three ships sailing on the sea,
All sailing for dry land,
And one hundred and ten jolly good seamen,
They are all at your command."

She took her baby on her knee
And gave it kisses three.
Saying, "Stay at home, my darling little baby,
To keep your father's company."

Then she dressed herself in a stylish dress.
Methinks she looks so gay!
As she walked through those streets of gold
She shone like a lily gay.

They had not been on sea two hours,
And I'm sure it was not three,
Before this maid she was found for to weep,
And she wept most bitterly.

"Is it for my gold you weep,
Or is it for my store,
Or is it for your house carpenter
That you never shall see any more?"


"No, it's neither for your gold I weep,
Nor it's neither for your store,
But it's all for the sake of my darling little baby
That I never shall see any more."

They had not been on the sea three months,
And I'm sure it wasn't for four,
Before the ship it sprang a leak,
And it sank for to rise no more.

"A curse, a curse, to all the seamen,
And a curse on me this life,
For robbing of a house carpenter
And a-stealing away his wife."


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Subject: Lyr Add: THE HOUSE CARPENTER (trad New Hampshire)
From: John Minear
Date: 11 Dec 11 - 12:55 PM

From Mrs. Belle Richards of Colebrook, New Hampshire, April 22, 1942.

The House Carpenter

"Well met, well met, my own true love,
Well met, well met," said he,
"For I have crossed the sea, salt sea,
And 'twas all for the sake of thee.

"'Twas I could have married a king's daughter fair,
And she would have married me,
But I refused her houses and land,
And 'twas all for the sake of thee."

"If you could have wed a king's daughter fair,
I'm sure you are to blame,
For I am married to a house carpenter,
And I'm sure he's a nice young man.

"If you'll forsake your house carpenter
And go along with me,
I will take you to a place where the grass grows green
On the banks of a sweet vallee."

"If I forsake my house carpenter
And go along with thee,
What have you got to maintain me upon
And to keep me from slavery?"

"It's I've six ships out on the sea
All sailing for dry land,
And a hundred and ten jolly, brave seamen
And they're all at your command."

She dressed herself in scarlet red;
Methinks she looks fair to behold:
And, as she walked the streets up and down,
She shone like the glittering gold.

She took her babe upon her knee
And gave it kisses three,
Saying, "Stay at home, my darling little babe;
Keep your father company."

She had not been at sea two months -
I'm sure it was not three -
When this fair maid was found to weep,
And she wept most bitterly.

"Oh, is it for my gold that you mourn
That I've not laid up in store,
Or is it for your house carpenter
That you never can see any more?"

"It is not for your gold that I mourn.
'Tis neither for my house carpenter,
But it is all for my darling little babe
That I never shall see any more."

They had not been at sea two months -
I'm sure it was not three
When this proud ship she sprang a leak,
And she sank for to rise no more.

They had not been at sea three months -
I'm sure it was not four -
When this proud ship she sprang a leak
And she sank for to rise no more.

A curse, a curse, on all seamen,
A curse on me for life (doth lie),
For robbing of a house carpenter
And for stealing away his wife.


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Subject: Lyr Add: THE HOUSE CARPENTER (trad New Hampshire)
From: John Minear
Date: 11 Dec 11 - 01:18 PM

From Sidney Luther of Pittsburg, New Hampshire, "as learned from his father, Alan Luther, when he was seven years old." September 17, 1942

The House Carpenter

"Well met, well met, my own true love;
Well met, well met," said he,
"For I have crossed the salt sea wave,
And it's all for the sake of thee;
For I have crossed o'er the salt sea wave,
And it's all for the sake of thee."

"Oh I could have married a king's daughter fair,
And she would have married me,
'N I have crossed the salt sea wave,
And it's all for the sake of thee."

"If you could have married a king's daughter fair,
I'm sure you are much to blame,
For I am married to a house carpenter,
And I'm sure he's a fine young man;
For I am married to a house carpenter,
And I'm sure he's a fine young man."

"If you will forsake your house carpenter
And come along with me,
I will take you to a place where the grass grows green
On the banks of a sweet Willie:
I'll take you to a place where the grass grows green
On the banks of a sweet Willie."

And then she takes poor little babe
And sets it on her knee,
Saying, "Stay at home, my darling little babe;
Keep your father's company.
Oh, stay at home, my darling little babe;
Keep your father's company."

She had not been on board two weeks -
I am sure it was not three -
When this fair maid was seen to weep,
And she wept most bitterly;
When this fair maid was seen to weep,
And she wept most bitterly.

"Oh, is it for my gold that your mourn,
Or is it for my store,
Or is it for my house carpenter
That you never will see any more?

They had not been on board three weeks -
I'm sure it was not four -
When this proud ship she sprung a leak
And she sank to rise no more;
When this proud ship she sprung a leak
And she sank to rise no more.

A curse, a curse, to all seamen,
A curse, a curse for life,
For robbing of a house carpenter
And stealing away his wife;
For robbing of a house carpenter
And stealing away his wife.


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Subject: RE: Lyr Req: Demon Lover in New England?
From: GUEST,gus
Date: 11 Dec 11 - 01:40 PM

Thanks B.P. for the link to Rae. The title would probably have been given by an academic. It certainly is very close to Child 243F [15 verses] with his version having 18 verses [not 17 as given in the text] At a quick check I cannot find the three extra verses in any of the versions in Child.
As a nonacademic traditional singer from the sticks I very much doubt if Rae would even have heard of Child 40 years ago.


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Subject: RE: Lyr Req: Demon Lover in New England?
From: John Minear
Date: 11 Dec 11 - 06:05 PM

Thanks for the Joe Rae site. I finally got around to listening to that. It was grand.


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Subject: Lyr Add: THE SHIP CARPENTER (trad Vermont)
From: John Minear
Date: 12 Dec 11 - 08:36 AM

I'm going to go ahead and put up the version that Flanders collected from Lena Bourne Fish, even though we already have a version from Granny Fish collected by the Warners. This is obviously the same version but there are some interesting differences in the way Mrs. Fish has sung her ballad. Flanders says that Mrs. Fish learned this ballad from her father, Stratton Bourne, who was born in northern Vermont, but whose forebears had been early settlers of Bourne, MA, on Cape Cod. It would be nice to claim this as a Massachusetts version, but I think that might be a stretch.

The Ship Carpenter

"Well met, well met, my pretty fair maid!"
"Not so very well met," said she,
"For I am married to a ship carpenter,
And a very fine man is he."

"If you will forsake your ship carpenter
And go along with me,
I will take you where the grass grows green
On the banks of the sweet vallee."

"If I forsake my ship carpenter
And go along with thee,
What have you there to keep me on?
Will I be in slavery?"

"Oh, I have ships all in the bay
And plenty more on land;
Five hundred and ten of fine young men,
And they're all at your command."

She took her baby in her arms
And gave him kisses three.
"Stay home, stay at home with your own father dear,
And he'll take care of thee."

She had not sailed six weeks on the sea,
Oh, no, not scarcely three,
Before this lady began for to mourn
And she wept most bitterly.

"Now do you mourn for gold? said she,
"Or are you tired of me?
Or do you mourn for your ship carpenter
That you left to follow me?"

"I do not mourn for gold," she cries,
"But I am tired fo thee!
And I do mourn for my ship carpenter
And for my sweet babee!"

The wild waves 'round the ship did roll;
They were leagues from shore;
In the bottom of the ship there sprang a leak.
And her mourning was heard no more.

This was recorded in 1940, with a "retake" in 1943. The Warner recording of Lena Bourne Fish was made in 1940. It is interesting to compare the two versions (the Warner one is above), and to notice the subtle differences in wording which really do affect the meaning of the song. [There is a correction to the Warner version: in the third line of the second verse it should read "take" instead of "teak".]


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Subject: Lyr Add: THE HOUSE CARPENTER (trad New Hampshire)
From: John Minear
Date: 12 Dec 11 - 08:59 AM

And here is the version which Miss Ruth Moses of New York City "set down...from the singing of her father, who lives in Woodstock, New Hampshire." Flanders added this to her collection on February 9, 1935. I am treating this version as one from New Hampshire rather than New York City. All of these ballads from the Flanders' Collection are being taken from Vol. 3 of her ANCIENT BALLADS TRADITIONALLY SUNG IN NEW ENGLAND (1963).

The House Carpenter

"Oh, I might have married the Kings's daughter fair
And she would have married me,
but I have refused the crowns of Gordon gold,
And 'tis all for the sake of thee."

"If you have refused the King's daughter fair
I think you're much to blame,
For I am married to a House Carpenter
And I think he's a nice young man."

"If you will forsake your House Carpenter
And go along with me,
I'll take you where the grass grows green
On the banks of sweet Guerlee.

'If I forsake my House Carpenter
And go along with thee,
Oh, what hast thou got to maintain me on
Or to keep me from slavery?"

"I've got three ships loaded down with gold
And a-sailing now for land,
With a hundred and ten right jolly seamen bold,
And they're all at your command."

Then she dressed herself in scarlet red,
A color you all have seen,
And as she walked the streets up and down
She looked like a glittering queen.

Then she took up her darling little child;
She gave it kisses three,
Saying, "Stay at home, my darling little child,
For to keep your father company."

They had not been at sea more than two weeks,
I'm sure it couldn't have been three,
When that fair lady was seen for to weep,
And she wept most bitterly.

"Oh, is it for my gold that you weep?
Or is it for my store?
Or is it for your House Carpenter
That you never can see any more?"

"Oh, it is not for your gold that I weep,
Nor it is not for your store,
But it is for my darling little child
That I never can see any more."

They had not been at sea more than three weeks,
I'm sure it couldn't have been four,
When the ship sprang a leak; to the bottom then she sank
And she sank to arise no more.

Then that brings a curse on all womenkind,
Likewise on all men alive,
Who'll steal away from a House Carpenter
And take away his wife.


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Subject: Lyr Add: THE HOUSE CARPENTER (trad Connecticut)
From: John Minear
Date: 12 Dec 11 - 09:26 AM

[Mudcat just gobbled up a ballad so I will try it again.]

From the Flanders Collection, May 17, 1949, as sung by Oscar Degreenia of West Cornwall, Connecticut. Flanders says, "He learned this from his Canadian-born father and his mother, a native of Glover, Vermont." So we don't really know whether this is a Canadian version or from what part of Canada, or whether it is a Vermont version. It is probably not a "Connecticut version."

The House Carpenter

"I have came across the sea, salt sea;
It was all for the sake of thee.

"I might have married a king's daughter fair
And she would married me."
"For I have married a house carpenter
And I think he's a very nice man."

"If you will leave your house carpenter
And come along with me,
I'll take you there where the grass grows green
On the banks of the sweet Dundee."

"If I should leave my house carpenter
And go along with thee,
What have you there to support me on
Or keep me from misery?"

"I have three ships all loaded with gold
And sailing for dry land,
And a hundred and twenty sailor boys
Will be at your demand."

She picked her baby up into her arms
And give him kisses three,
Saying, "Stay at home with you pap
For he is good company."

They had not sailed a week an' a half,
I'm sure it was not three,
Before this fair maid found for to weep,
And she wept most bitterly.

"Is it for gold that you do weep,
Or is it for my store?"
"It's for my darling little babe
That I never will see no more."

They had not sailed three weeks and a half,
I'm sure it was not four,
When a hole broke lout in the bottom of the ship,
And their bones was heard no more.


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Subject: Lyr Add: THE DAEMON LOVER (trad Massachusetts)
From: John Minear
Date: 12 Dec 11 - 09:41 AM

This may be the only version so far that might claim Massachusetts as an origin, although it was collected from a person in Newport, Rhode Island. It was sung by Edith Ballenger Price, on October 23, 1945. She learned it as a young girl from "a lady living in Massachusetts, whose forebears came from England." This version is considerably different from the other New England versions and is entitled "The Daemon Lover."

The Daemon Lover

"I've seven ships upon the sea,
Beaten with the finest gold,
And mariners to wait upon us;
All this she shall behold."

She set her foot unto the ship,
No mariners did she behold;
But the sail was o' the....
And the mast o' the beaten gold.

They hadna' sailed a league, a league,
A league but only one,
When she began to weep and to mourn
and to think on her little wee son.

"Now hold ye tears, my dearest dear;
Let all your weeping be:
For I'll show you how the lilies grow
On the banks of Italee.

They hadna' been a league, a league,
A league but only two,
When she beheld his cloven foot,
From his gay robe thrusting through.

They hadna' sailed a league, a league,
A league but only three,
When dark and fearsome grow his looks
And gurly grow the sea.

"Now hold your tears, my dearest dear,
Let all your weeping be
And I'll show ye how the white lilies grow
At the bottom o' the sea."

They hadna' sailed a league, a league,
A league but only four;
When the little wee ship ran 'round about
And never was seen more.


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Subject: Lyr Add: THE YOUNG TURTLE DOVE (trad New Hampshire
From: John Minear
Date: 12 Dec 11 - 10:48 AM

From a manuscript that belonged to Mrs. John Luther and handed on to her sister, Mrs. Alice Robie of Pittsburg, New Hampshire, and collected on November 21, 1941 by M. Olney, who was the "collector" for Flanders of many of these ballads.

THE YOUNG TURTLE DOVE

Don't you see young turtle dove
That sits on yonder pine,
She is lamenting for her true love
As I'm lamenting for mine.

I have returned from the salt, salt sea
All for the marry you
And you are married to a house carpenter
And he is a fine young man.

She went into her golden room
And dressed in silk so fine;
She turned around and around again
For she shone like a diamond's bride.

She went unto her dear little babe
And gave it kisses three
Saying, "Stay at home, my dear little babe,
Keep your papa company."

They had not sail'd more than one or two weeks,
I am sure it was not three,
When this fair maid, she began to weep
And she wept most bitterly.

Why do you mourn for your house carpenter that you have left on shore
I do not mourn for my house carpenter that I have left on shore;
But I do mourn for my dear little babe
That I shall see no more.

They had not sailed more than two or three weeks
I am sure it was not four
Before the ship sank in the deep
And sank to use no more.

There was no tune given with this version.


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Subject: RE: Lyr Req: Demon Lover in New England?
From: John Minear
Date: 12 Dec 11 - 11:21 AM

Here is a fragment sung by Maynard Reynolds of Pittsburg, New Hampshire "(upper Connecticut Lakes section)," September 8, 1941. Flanders says that "Reynolds was born in Maine and heard ...(this ballad) sung when a small boy." I would suggest that this may be a "Maine version" rather than a "New Hampshire version".

"Oh, if you'll forsake your house carpenter
And come along with me,
I will take you to the place where the green grass grows
On the banks of the Sweet Willee.
I will take you to the place where the green grass grows
On the banks of the Sweet Willee."

They had not been to sea two months,
I'm sure it was not three,
When she was seen sitting at the old cabin door
.....


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Subject: RE: Lyr Req: Demon Lover in New England?
From: John Minear
Date: 12 Dec 11 - 11:27 AM

Here is a Youtube of Deborah Flanders, a great-niece of Helen Hartness Flanders, singing a version of "The House Carpenter" from the Flanders Collection. She does not identify which version it is.

http://www.youtube.com/watch?feature=player_embedded&v=Cui5qJIfuIs#!

Here is her website:

http://www.deborahflanders.net/Home.html


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Subject: RE: Lyr Req: Demon Lover in New England?
From: Desert Dancer
Date: 12 Dec 11 - 11:55 AM

The Ship's Carpenter as sung by George Edwards (of Grahamsville and Roscoe, New York) in Cazden, Haufrecht, & Studer, Folk Songs of the Catskills at Google Books

~ Becky in Tucson


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Subject: Lyr Add: THE HOUSE CARPENTER (trad Maine)
From: John Minear
Date: 12 Dec 11 - 11:58 AM

Here is the version sung by Allen Johnson, which he learned in Calais, Maine. It was collected by William L. Alderson for the Library of Congress (LC/AAFS, rec. No. 10366(A6).

House Carpenter

Well met, well met, my fair pretty maid.
No so very well met, said she,
For I am married to a house carpenter,
And a very fine man is he,
For I am married to a house carpenter,
And a very fine man is he.

If you'll forsake your house carpenter
And come along with me,
I'll take you there where the grass grows green,
On the banks of the sweet Vallie,
I'll take you there where the grass grows green,
On the banks of the sweet Vallie.

O if I forsake my house carpenter
And come along with thee,
What have you there to entertain me with
And keep me company?
What have you there to entertain me with
And keep me company?

I've a thousand ships all on the bay,
And many more on land,
A hundred and ten of as fine young men,
And they're all at your command,
A hundred and ten of as fine young men,
And they're all at your command.

She went upstairs herself to dress,
Very beautiful she was to behold,
For when she walked along the streets
She shone as though she were gold,
For when she walked along the streets
She shone as though she were gold.

She took her babe all in her arms
And kissed him three times three.
Stay at home, stay at home, stay at home, my lad,
Your father's good company.
Stay at home, stay at home, stay at home, my lad,
Your father's good company.

They had not been sailing for more than six weeks,
O no, not more than three,
When this fair lady began to mourn
And mourned most bitterly,
When this fair lady began to mourn
And mourned most bitterly.

O is it gold for which you mourn,
Or do you mourn for me ?
Or do you mourn your house carpenter
Who you left to follow me?
Or do you mourn your house carpenter
Who you left to follow me?

O it is not gold for which I mourn,
Nor do I mourn for thee.
But I do mourn my house carpenter
Who I left to follow thee.
But I do mourn my house carpenter
And likewise my fair baby.

They had not sailed for more than eight weeks,
O no, not more than four,
When a hole in the ship it sprang a leak,
And the mourner was heard no more,
When a hole in the ship it sprang a leak,
And the mourner was heard no more.


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Subject: RE: Lyr Req: Demon Lover in New England?
From: Brian Peters
Date: 12 Dec 11 - 12:04 PM

"As a nonacademic traditional singer from the sticks I very much doubt if Rae would even have heard of Child 40 years ago"

He may or may not have heard of Child, Guest gus, but the version he sings is pretty much word-for-word that published by Motherwell in 'Minstrelsy, Ancient and Modern' (read it here) in 1873. It's substantially the smae as Child's F text From Scott, with those rather poetic additonal verses about waesomely wailing snow-white sprites etc.

I think it's a mistake to assume that traditional singers from the rural working class were necessarily ignorant of published ballad collections. Mike Yates article about Joe Rae tells us that Joe learned songs from his mother and father, but also from his neighbour, the shepherd Ned Robertson, of whom Yates says:

"many of Ned's texts are similar to those published in the late 18th and early 19th centuries by the likes of Herd and Motherwell... Joe's ballads reveal a literary influence from perhaps a couple of hundred years ago."

He also quotes Alan Lomax thus:

"The Scots have the liveliest folk tradition of the British Isles, but paradoxically, it is the most bookish. Everywhere in Scotland I collected songs of written or bookish origin from country singers, and, on the other hand, I constantly encountered bookish Scotsmen who had good traditional versions of the finest folk songs. For this reason I have published songs which show every degree and kind of literary influence."

And I hate to rain on too many parades at once, but John Minear's transcription (and thank for all those, John) from Edith Price of Newport, RI, looks an awful lot like a collation from the two versions of the ballad in Motherwell's 'Minstrelsey'. If the singer did indeed give it the title 'Daemon Lover', that alone would be grounds for suspicion.


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Subject: RE: Lyr Req: Demon Lover in New England?
From: John Minear
Date: 12 Dec 11 - 12:04 PM

Thanks, Becky, for the George Edwards' version from the Catskills. Here are two versions from the Adirondacks, collected by Edith E. Cutting and published in her book LORE OF AN ADIRONDACK COUNTY (from Google Books). One version is by Mrs. Cornwright and one by Mr. Cutting.

http://books.google.com/books?id=MElT30avx4wC&pg=PA69&dq=The+House+Carpenter+ballad&hl=en&ei=SUbdTv3_BqHK0AGNwJHHAg&sa=X&oi=book


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Subject: RE: Lyr Req: Demon Lover in New England?
From: Desert Dancer
Date: 12 Dec 11 - 12:08 PM

Possibly outside the region of your interest, but the version in the Penguin Book of Canadian Folk Songs is from LaRena Clark of Ontario. This article says that most of her English songs came from her grandfather who emigrated from northern England.

Song transcript available by request...

~ Becky in Tucson


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Subject: RE: Lyr Req: Demon Lover in New England?
From: John Minear
Date: 12 Dec 11 - 12:10 PM

Hi Brian. I, too, was suspicious of that "Daemon Lover" version from Rhode Island/Massachusetts/England. Thanks for the Mike Yates article on Joe Rae.


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Subject: RE: Lyr Req: Demon Lover in New England?
From: John Minear
Date: 12 Dec 11 - 12:13 PM

Becky, thanks for the LaRena Clark information. Can you post her version without too much trouble? I think it would give us a broader context for what we are looking at and be good for the purposes of comparison.


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