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Subject: RE: Lyr Req: Demon Lover in New England? From: GUEST,gus Date: 11 Dec 11 - 01:40 PM Thanks B.P. for the link to Rae. The title would probably have been given by an academic. It certainly is very close to Child 243F [15 verses] with his version having 18 verses [not 17 as given in the text] At a quick check I cannot find the three extra verses in any of the versions in Child. As a nonacademic traditional singer from the sticks I very much doubt if Rae would even have heard of Child 40 years ago. |
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Subject: Lyr Add: THE HOUSE CARPENTER (trad New Hampshire) From: John Minear Date: 11 Dec 11 - 01:18 PM From Sidney Luther of Pittsburg, New Hampshire, "as learned from his father, Alan Luther, when he was seven years old." September 17, 1942 The House Carpenter "Well met, well met, my own true love; Well met, well met," said he, "For I have crossed the salt sea wave, And it's all for the sake of thee; For I have crossed o'er the salt sea wave, And it's all for the sake of thee." "Oh I could have married a king's daughter fair, And she would have married me, 'N I have crossed the salt sea wave, And it's all for the sake of thee." "If you could have married a king's daughter fair, I'm sure you are much to blame, For I am married to a house carpenter, And I'm sure he's a fine young man; For I am married to a house carpenter, And I'm sure he's a fine young man." "If you will forsake your house carpenter And come along with me, I will take you to a place where the grass grows green On the banks of a sweet Willie: I'll take you to a place where the grass grows green On the banks of a sweet Willie." And then she takes poor little babe And sets it on her knee, Saying, "Stay at home, my darling little babe; Keep your father's company. Oh, stay at home, my darling little babe; Keep your father's company." She had not been on board two weeks - I am sure it was not three - When this fair maid was seen to weep, And she wept most bitterly; When this fair maid was seen to weep, And she wept most bitterly. "Oh, is it for my gold that your mourn, Or is it for my store, Or is it for my house carpenter That you never will see any more? They had not been on board three weeks - I'm sure it was not four - When this proud ship she sprung a leak And she sank to rise no more; When this proud ship she sprung a leak And she sank to rise no more. A curse, a curse, to all seamen, A curse, a curse for life, For robbing of a house carpenter And stealing away his wife; For robbing of a house carpenter And stealing away his wife. |
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Subject: Lyr Add: THE HOUSE CARPENTER (trad New Hampshire) From: John Minear Date: 11 Dec 11 - 12:55 PM From Mrs. Belle Richards of Colebrook, New Hampshire, April 22, 1942. The House Carpenter "Well met, well met, my own true love, Well met, well met," said he, "For I have crossed the sea, salt sea, And 'twas all for the sake of thee. "'Twas I could have married a king's daughter fair, And she would have married me, But I refused her houses and land, And 'twas all for the sake of thee." "If you could have wed a king's daughter fair, I'm sure you are to blame, For I am married to a house carpenter, And I'm sure he's a nice young man. "If you'll forsake your house carpenter And go along with me, I will take you to a place where the grass grows green On the banks of a sweet vallee." "If I forsake my house carpenter And go along with thee, What have you got to maintain me upon And to keep me from slavery?" "It's I've six ships out on the sea All sailing for dry land, And a hundred and ten jolly, brave seamen And they're all at your command." She dressed herself in scarlet red; Methinks she looks fair to behold: And, as she walked the streets up and down, She shone like the glittering gold. She took her babe upon her knee And gave it kisses three, Saying, "Stay at home, my darling little babe; Keep your father company." She had not been at sea two months - I'm sure it was not three - When this fair maid was found to weep, And she wept most bitterly. "Oh, is it for my gold that you mourn That I've not laid up in store, Or is it for your house carpenter That you never can see any more?" "It is not for your gold that I mourn. 'Tis neither for my house carpenter, But it is all for my darling little babe That I never shall see any more." They had not been at sea two months - I'm sure it was not three When this proud ship she sprang a leak, And she sank for to rise no more. They had not been at sea three months - I'm sure it was not four - When this proud ship she sprang a leak And she sank for to rise no more. A curse, a curse, on all seamen, A curse on me for life (doth lie), For robbing of a house carpenter And for stealing away his wife. |
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Subject: Lyr Add: THE HOUSE CARPENTER (trad New Hampshire) From: John Minear Date: 11 Dec 11 - 12:33 PM From Charlestown, New Hampshire, we have this version by Orlon Merrill (1931). He learned this "in logging woods in northern New Hampshire." The House Carpenter "I might have married a king's daughter fair, And she would have married me, But I have come across the sal', salt sea, And it's all on account of thee." "If you could have married a king's daughter fair, I am sure that you're to blame, Because I am married to a house carpenter, And I'm sure he's a nice young man." "But if you will forsake your house carpenter And go along with me, I will take you to the place where the grass grows green On the banks of the sweet Will-lea." "But if I forsake my house carpenter, To go along with you, What have you there to maintain me on, And keep me from slavery?" "I have three ships sailing on the sea, All sailing for dry land, And one hundred and ten jolly good seamen, They are all at your command." She took her baby on her knee And gave it kisses three. Saying, "Stay at home, my darling little baby, To keep your father's company." Then she dressed herself in a stylish dress. Methinks she looks so gay! As she walked through those streets of gold She shone like a lily gay. They had not been on sea two hours, And I'm sure it was not three, Before this maid she was found for to weep, And she wept most bitterly. "Is it for my gold you weep, Or is it for my store, Or is it for your house carpenter That you never shall see any more?" "No, it's neither for your gold I weep, Nor it's neither for your store, But it's all for the sake of my darling little baby That I never shall see any more." They had not been on the sea three months, And I'm sure it wasn't for four, Before the ship it sprang a leak, And it sank for to rise no more. "A curse, a curse, to all the seamen, And a curse on me this life, For robbing of a house carpenter And a-stealing away his wife." |
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Subject: RE: Lyr Req: Demon Lover in New England? From: John Minear Date: 11 Dec 11 - 12:03 PM The version by Mrs. Myra Daniels of East Calais, VT, which is in the Flanders Collection at Middlebury College, is not included in ANCIENT BALLADS. Also, the location of Ruth Moses is a bit confusing. Roud has her in North Woodstock, VT. But in ANCIENT BALLADS, Flanders has her in New York City, and her father, from whom she got her version, is in Woodstock, NH. I'm going to put her with the NH group. If anybody has a better clarity on this let me know. |
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Subject: Lyr Add: THE HOUSE CARPENTER (trad Vermont) From: John Minear Date: 11 Dec 11 - 11:11 AM From Mrs. Wales of Burlington, Vermont, in early 1932, learned from her grandmother, Mrs. Bissell, and also her sisters. Mrs. Bissell and her sisters "sang a great deal while living on the farm of their father, Phineas Moulton, at Randolph, Vermont, before 1860." They had not sailed a month or more, A month or scarcely three, When she began to weep and lament And to mourn most bitterlie. "O do you weep for gold, " he said, "Or do you weep for me, Or do you weep for your house carpenter That you left to come with me?" "I do not weep for gold," she said, "I do not weep for thee; But I do weep for my house carpenter Whom I left to come with thee." They had not sailed a month or more, A month or scarcely four, When a hole in the ship, and the ship sprang a leak And her weeping was heard no more. |
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Subject: Lyr Add: THE HOUSE CARPENTER (trad Vermont) From: John Minear Date: 11 Dec 11 - 10:41 AM Sung by Mrs. Alice Mancour of Bellows Falls, Vermont, October 17, 1942 The House Carpenter "Well met, well met, my pretty fair maid Well met, well met," said he, "For I have come from the sea, salt sea, And it's all for the sake of thee." "If you have come from the sea, salt sea, You are very much to blame, For I am married to a house carpenter, And I'm sure he's a very fine man. "If you will leave your house carpenter And go along with me, I will take you where the grass grows green On the strand of the Sweet Dundee." She had not gone two months and a half, I'm sure it was not three, Before this young lady was found for to weep, And she wept most bitterly. "Oh, is it for my gold that you weep, Or is it for my store?" "It is for my darling little babe That I never shall see any more." She had not sailed three months and a half, I'm sure it was not four, Before a hole in the ship sprang a leak, And the moans was heard no more. Before a hole in the ship sprang a leak, And the moans was hear no more. |
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Subject: Lyr Add: THE HOUSE CARPENTER (trad Vermont) From: John Minear Date: 11 Dec 11 - 09:33 AM Mick, thanks for keeping us up to date with Roud. That is very helpful. I'm going to start with the versions that Flanders collected in Vermont. Here is the one she got from Elmer George of East Calais, Vermont (no date). The House Carpenter "Well met, well met, my pretty fair maid," "No so very well met," said she, "For I am married to a house carpenter, And a very fine man is he; For I am married to a house carpenter, And a very fine man is he." "If you forsake your house carpenter And go along with me, I will take you there where the grass grows green On the banks of the sweet vallee." (Repeat last two lines of each verse.) "If I forsake my house carpenter And go along with thee, What have you there to entertain me on, To keep me from slavery?" "Oh, I have ships all in the bay And plenty more upon land, Five hundred and ten of as fine young men. They are all at your command." She took her babe all in her arms And gave him kisses three. "Stay at home, stay at home with your own father dear, For he's good companee." She went upstairs to dress herself Most beautiful to behold. 'Twas then she walk-ed the streets all along, And she shone like the glittering gold. She had not sailed six weeks on the sea, Oh, no, not more than three, Before this fair lady began for to mourn And she mourned most bitterlee. "What, do you mourn for gold," he said, "Or do you mourn for me, Or do you mourn for your house carpenter That you left to follow me?" "I do not mourn for gold," she cries; "I do not mourn for thee But I do mourn for my house carpenter And likewise my fair babee." She had not sailed eight weeks on the sea, Oh, no, not more than four, Before that hole in the ship sprang a leak And this mourner was heard no more. Flanders says that when Mr. George began to sing this song for her, "different members of his family within doors joined in and were echoed by the little child playing on the lawn outside..." (A GARLAND OF GREEN MOUNTAIN SONG, 80) |
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Subject: RE: Lyr Req: Demon Lover in New England? From: Mick Pearce (MCP) Date: 11 Dec 11 - 07:23 AM Here's what the Roud index has to say about New York and New Brunswick. It looks like 4 added from NY and 1 from NB. Mick New York SHIP'S CARPENTER, THE Source Cazden, Abelard Folk Song Book pt.1 (1958) pp.82-83 Performer Edwards, George Place collected USA : New York : Catskill mountains Collector ---- SHIP'S CARPENTER, THE Source Cazden, Folk Songs of the Catskills pp.271-275 Performer Edwards, George Place collected USA : New York : Grahamsville Collector ---- HOUSE CARPENTER, THE Source Flanders, Ancient Ballads Traditionally Sung in New England 3 pp.287-321 (version b) Performer Moses, Mr. Place collected USA : New York : Woodstock Collector Flanders, Helen Hartness ---- HOUSE CARPENTER Source Library of Congress AAFS recording 3667 A2 & B1 Performer Montonyea, Mort Place collected USA : New York : Sloatsburg Collector Halpert, Herbert ---- HOUSE-CARPENTER, THE Source Cutting, Lore of an Adirondack County (1944) pp.69-71 Performer Cornwright, Mrs. Esther Place collected USA : New York : Lewis Collector Cutting, Edith E. Also included was a version by Aunt Molly Jackson recorded in NY, but I've excluded that New Brunswick HOUSE CARPENTER, THE Source Creighton, Folksongs from Southern New Brunswick pp.14-16 Performer Ireland, William Place collected Canada : New Brunswick : Elgin Collector Creighton, Helen ---- HOUSE CARPENTER, THE Source Helen Creighton collection (Nova Scotia Archives) AR 5742 / AC 2343 / Performer Ireland, W.E. Place collected Canada : New Brunswick : Elgin Collector Creighton, Helen |
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Subject: RE: Lyr Req: Demon Lover in New England? From: John Minear Date: 10 Dec 11 - 09:54 PM Thanks for the information on Maine and the Maritimes, Julia. And yes, tell us about he version from Cape Breton. In fact, lets expand our search north and also south to at least include New York state. I made it to the UVA library today and was able to get hold of one of the Flanders books. I'll have more to say about it tomorrow. I'll have a little more information on the singers, a few recording dates, and some observations on the songs themselves. One that I can share now is that most of these versions are very similar to each other. I can't tell that much about the tunes because I don't read music. Perhaps someone else will be able to get hold of this material (Flanders) and help us with the music. What I got today is Volume III of ANCIENT BALLADS TRADITIONALLY SUNG IN NEW ENGLAND (1963). I think that this contains the most comprehensive collection made by Flanders and most of what she had published in previous books. Please correct me on this if I am mistaken. |
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Subject: RE: Lyr Req: Demon Lover in New England? From: GUEST,julia L Date: 10 Dec 11 - 05:22 PM Regarding the line between Maine and the Maritimes, it is very fuzzy. Both woodsmen and mariners crossed the border with regularity, some even had families on both sides! Songs and folkways traveled back and forth. Also, remember, Maine did not become a state until 1820. Until that time it was under the jurisdiction of Massachusetts, so all the older records refer to the area under that name. I just came across a version of the demon Lover from Cape Breton if you are interested. best- Julia |
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Subject: RE: Lyr Req: Demon Lover in New England? From: John Minear Date: 10 Dec 11 - 11:30 AM According to my calculations, so far we have noted versions of "The House Carpenter" collected in the following NE states from these people: MAINE Mrs. Susie Carr Young, of Brewer, ME Allen Johnson, learned in Calais, ME VERMONT Elmer George, East Calais, VT Mrs. Alice Mancour, Bellows Falls, VT Mrs. Myra Daniels, East Calais, VT Ruth Moses, North Woodstock, VT Mrs. Wales, Burlington, VT NEW HAMPSHIRE Bell Luther Richards, Colebrook, NH Maynard Reynolds, Pittsburg, NH Sidney Luther, Pittsburg, NH Mrs. Lena Bourne Fish, East Jaffrey, NH Orion Merrill, Charlestown, NH CONNECTICUT Oscar Degreenia, West Cornwall, CONN RHODE ISLAND Edith Ballenger Price, Newport, RI Edward Ballinger Price (?) |
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Subject: RE: Lyr Req: Demon Lover in New England? From: Bettynh Date: 09 Dec 11 - 02:00 PM We tend to forget that Britain was fighting France over North America at the same time it was fighting the newly named Americans. This map (from the Wikipedia article on French and Indian War) shows the status as of 1783. Pittsburgh and Colebrook, NH are right on that line between "always British" and "recently aquired by the British." If Scotch-Irish settlers were of use to the British authorities as the holders of the outlying settlements, those would be the places they'd settle. The American Revolutionary War battles over Quebec and Montreal went through Vermont and pretty much bypassed the areas noted in the list of ballad sources in NH. I can't speak for the Vermont sources. There were naval movements from the St. Lawrence and Lake Champlain, so certainly sailors could have been involved there. |
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Subject: RE: Lyr Req: Demon Lover in New England? From: John Minear Date: 09 Dec 11 - 11:47 AM Fiddlin' John Carson certainly brings back my sense of living near the banks of the Tennessee in Roane County, TN! Thanks, Brian. The "Ho, ho" song has an 1889 copyright on it by a D.A. Crane, with words and music by James J. Mulcahy. It may be based on an earlier minstrel tune but I was not able to find either the original of this or anything earlier. This comes considerably after the broadside. I found the GRAHAM'S ILLUSTRATED magazine (Vol 53) that Child referred to and in which he found the two verses he quotes from the broadside. It is here: http://books.google.com/books?id=Ba3PAAAAMAAJ&pg=PA277&dq=On+the+banks+of+the+old+Tennessee&hl=en&ei=rA_iTs2xFsP00gGGnYGFBg&sa=X And here is Barry's note about this: http://books.google.com/books?id=pR1hFqzIfGAC&pg=PA238&dq=On+the+banks+of+the+old+Tennessee&hl=en&ei=4RLiTsOGNebi0QG0xsDdBQ&sa=X Here is another song that uses the phrase "on the banks of the old Tennessee", from the George Boswell collection of FOLK SONGS OF MIDDLE TENNESSEE. It is called "Take Me Home." http://books.google.com/books?id=QB2Dc9zeoWwC&pg=PA146&dq=On+the+banks+of+the+old+Tennessee&hl=en&ei=0gviTrznOObf0QH5h9DwBQ&sa=X Here are two examples of early usage of the phrase "on the banks of the (old) Tennessee." First a nice short story from Vol 56 of Blackwood's Edinburgh magazine from Sept. 1844: http://books.google.com/books?id=2fZFAAAAcAAJ&pg=PA278&dq=On+the+banks+of+the+old+Tennessee&hl=en&ei=rA_iTs2xFsP00gGGnYGFBg&sa=X And then a story about Sam Houston moving to Maryville, Tennessee, from Vol 28 of THE CENTURY magazine from 1884. (Maryville happens to be my own hometown.) http://books.google.com/books?id=EMdZAAAAYAAJ&pg=PA495&dq=On+the+banks+of+the+old+Tennessee&hl=en&ei=dBTiTpi9Iajc0QGqkd3cBQ&sa=X And finally, a fascinating Cajun French version of "The House Carpenter" which also contains this "Tennessee" line: http://books.google.com/books?id=y51Pcgyqj14C&pg=PA155&dq=On+the+banks+of+the+old+Tennessee&hl=en&ei=dBTiTpi9Iajc0QGqkd3cBQ&sa=X Google Books sure is fun! |
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Subject: RE: Lyr Req: Demon Lover in New England? From: Brian Peters Date: 09 Dec 11 - 05:16 AM Isn't Google wonderful! Fiddlin' John Carson sings Banks of the old Tennessee And while we're at it, Fiddlin' John sings Sunny Tennessee I also found a version - possibly minstrel? - on traditionalmusic.co.uk, with the chorus: "Ho, ho, ho, them banjos, It would fill your heart with glee, On a moonlight night, when the stars are shining bright, 'Way down upon the banks of Tennessee." In the case of 'The Housecarpenter' I suspect that the Tennessee was chosen for its rhymability (is that a word?) rather than the merits of the waterway itself. |
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Subject: RE: Lyr Req: Demon Lover in New England? From: John Minear Date: 08 Dec 11 - 10:36 PM Mick, thanks for the tune for Lena Bourne Fish's version. I don't know how to do that kind of stuff. And thanks, Betty and Brian for the information on the Scots-Irish migrations. I hadn't realized that they were up in the Northeast as well as down here (I'm in Central Virginia) in the southern Appalachians. I'll take a look at the Wikipedia article. Also, our senator from VA, Jim Webb, wrote a pretty good book on the Scots-Irish called BORN FIGHTING - HOW THE SCOTS IRISH SHAPED AMERICA (2004). Brian, I used to live not all that far from "the banks of the Tennessee" River, but it is pretty far inland. Does this phrase show up in some other songs? I haven't had time to check this, but it sounded familiar. It's curious how this might have gotten attached to this ballad. It sounds good and the banks of the Tennessee are lovely if you like TVA lakes! Betty, your mention of the frontiers of Montreal raises the question of the relationship of the New England versions of this ballad to those further north in the Maritimes and the rest of eastern Canada. My wife's family was from Maine but I don't know much at all about the northeast, and what influenced what. Perhaps it is somewhat arbitrary to draw too clear a line between the U.S. and Canada with regard to these ballads. |
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Subject: Tune Add: THE SHIP CARPENTER (Lena Bourne Fish) From: Mick Pearce (MCP) Date: 08 Dec 11 - 04:40 PM John - sorry didn't notice you'd the version you'd already posted was Lena Bourne Fish one when I suggested I post it! Here's the tune for completeness anyway. Mick X:1 T:The Ship Carpenter B:Warner: Traditional American Folk Songs pp137-138, 1984 S:Collected by the Warners from Lena Bourne Fish, 1941 O:East Jeffrey, New Hampshire, USA M:C L:1/4 K:G D/|G> D G A|c/c/(B/A/) G w:"Well met, well met, my pret-ty fair_ maid." D/D/|G/G/ A B (A/G/)|d2 z w:"Not so ve-ry well met," said_ she. (B/c/)|d d c/B/A/G/|c B/A/ (F/D/) w:"For_ I am mar-ried to a ship car-pen-ter,_ F/G/|A/B/(A/F/) D (E/F/)|D2 z|] w:And a ve-ry fine_ man is_ he." |
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Subject: RE: Lyr Req: Demon Lover in New England? From: Brian Peters Date: 08 Dec 11 - 03:47 PM "The first trickle of Scotch-Irish settlers arrived in New England... many of the first permanent settlements in Maine and New Hampshire, especially after 1718, were Scotch-Irish" That might help to explain those Maine and NH versions in Flanders. However the English Puritans were already well established in Massachusetts by that point. Meanwhile, most of the Scotch-Irish went further South (same wiki article): "From 1710 to 1775, over 200,000 people emigrated from Ulster to the 13 Colonies, from Maine to Georgia. The largest numbers went to Pennsylvania. From that base some went south into Virginia, the Carolinas and across the South, with a large concentration in the Appalachian region; others headed west to western Pennsylvania, Ohio, Indiana, and the Midwest... The Scotch-Irish moved up the Delaware River to Bucks County, and then up the Susquehanna and Cumberland valleys, finding flat lands along the rivers and creeks to set up their log cabins, their grist mills, and their Presbyterian churches... With large numbers of children who needed their own inexpensive farms, the Scotch-Irish avoided areas already settled by Germans and Quakers and moved south, down the Shenandoah Valley, and through the Blue Ridge Mountains into Virginia. These migrants followed the Great Wagon Road from Lancaster, through Gettysburg, and down through Staunton, Virginia, to Big Lick (now Roanoke), Virginia. Here the pathway split, with the Wilderness Road taking settlers west into Tennessee and Kentucky, while the main road continued south into the Carolinas." |
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Subject: RE: Lyr Req: Demon Lover in New England? From: Brian Peters Date: 08 Dec 11 - 03:29 PM Right, John, back to the fray after a couple of hours spent with Bronson... "On the banks of the old Tennessee"! Where did that come from?" This looks like a regional amendment to "the banks of Italy" found in all of Child's Scots texts. That there are no such banks, or comparable locations, in the older English texts (Child 243 A & B) suggests that De Marsan is not derived directly from the latter. Looking through all of Bronson's North American copies, this is one of the features susceptible more than any other to variation. The promised banks may be those of 'Sweet liberty'. 'Dundee', 'the low country', or the 'salt salt sea', as well as many more or less nonsensical substitutions like 'sweet Marie', 'sweet Vallee', 'Aloe Dee', 'Daiee', 'Otie', 'Murree' and 'Lacolee'. The 'Banks of Claudy', mentioned in Mrs. Sullivan's version from VT, were presumably imported from another song. The most common is the 'Banks of Sweet Willie', with over twenty examples. I counted just four 'Banks of Tennessee', which suggests that the influence of the De Marsan broadside was limited or distant in time, but there are at least a dozen 'Banks of Italy', harking back to early 19th century Scots oral tradition. Other features of the ballad very common in North American variants but absent from de Marsan are the 'Hills of Heaven / Hell' (at least 32 examples), which are first sighted in the version from Scott's 'Minstrelsy' (Child F), and the scene where the eloping woman dresses herself in finery, frequently being seen to "shine like glittering gold", which isn't an exact match for any of the Scots copies, but recalls the 'glamour' cast over her in Child E, v8 (Motherwell's MS). On the other hand the incremental repetitions of De Marsan are matched in over seventy different American versions, usually as: 'They had not been on the sea two (three) weeks, I'm sure it was not three (four)', which is slightly different from the De Marsan formulation. Last verses following De Marsan's, along the lines of: 'A curse be on the sea-faring men' (the 'sea-going train' in two versions!), are reasonably common but by no means universal. Other American variants include archaisms that may go back to older British tradition, such as sailing for two leagues, rather than weeks (Bronson #18), the 'dark and dreary eye' in Bronson #102 (recalling 'dark, dark grew his eerie looks' in Child G), and the name 'George Alliss' (suggestive of 'James Harris?') in Bronson #141 - the aforementioned version from Springfield VT. All of which supports the idea that the De Marsan broadside, although it may have contributed to the ballad's popularity in America, was not the only means by which it was spread. There may have been other broadsides, of course, but some of those variations look a lot more like the result of oral transmission over generations. In that context, it's interesting that Lena Bourne Fish's father was a Scot - and thanks for posting her text. "Is Heylin's work on line by any chance?" Not that I know of. |
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Subject: RE: Lyr Req: Demon Lover in New England? From: Mick Pearce (MCP) Date: 08 Dec 11 - 03:03 PM John - repeats certainly. The index lists the contents of sources. So for example the versions in the published Ancient Ballads..., are duplicates of those in the archive at Middlebury. And the repeats of performer are probably versions collected at different times. Mick |
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Subject: RE: Lyr Req: Demon Lover in New England? From: Bettynh Date: 08 Dec 11 - 02:44 PM From the Wikipedia article on Scotch-irish: "The first trickle of Scotch-Irish settlers arrived in New England. Valued for their fighting prowess as well as for their Protestant dogma, they were invited by Cotton Mather and other leaders to come over to help settle and secure the frontier. In this capacity, many of the first permanent settlements in Maine and New Hampshire, especially after 1718, were Scotch-Irish and many place names as well as the character of Northern New Englanders reflect this fact. The Scotch-Irish brought the potato with them from Ireland (although the potato originated in South America, it was not known in North America until brought over from Europe). In Maine it became a staple crop as well as an economic base.[28]" Jaffrey and Charlestown would fit the "Indian frontier" description at the time. But Pittsburgh and Colebrook are so far north, they'd be frontiers of Montreal more than of anything that later became American. |
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Subject: RE: Lyr Req: Demon Lover in New England? From: John Minear Date: 08 Dec 11 - 02:18 PM Thanks a lot, Mick. I am assuming that there are repeats here rather than different versions by the same person. If somebody finds out that this is not the case, let us know. J. |
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Subject: RE: Lyr Req: Demon Lover in New England? From: Mick Pearce (MCP) Date: 08 Dec 11 - 01:15 PM If it helps to locate the copies, these are the entries I pulled out from Roud. I have the one from Warner's Traditional American Folk Songs and I can post that later if you want. Sadly I don't have the (4-vols) Flanders collection, but it's quite likely that someone here does. Mick Roud #14 (=Child #243) In New England Vermont BANKS OF CLAUDY, THE Source Bulletin of the Folksong Society of the Northeast 7 (1934) p.11 Performer Sullivan, Mrs. E.M. Place collected USA : Vermont : Springfield Collector Barry, Phillips ---- BANKS OF CLAUDY, THE Source Bulletin of the Folksong Society of the Northeast 6 (1933) pp.7-8 Performer Sullivan, Mrs. E.M. Place collected USA : Vermont : Springfield Collector Flanders, Helen Hartness ---- BANKS OF CLADY, THE Source Flanders, Ancient Ballads Traditionally Sung in New England 3 pp.287-321 (version n1) Performer Sullivan, Ellen M. Place collected USA : Vermont : Springfield Collector Flanders, Helen Hartness ---- BANKS OF CLADY, THE Source Flanders, Ancient Ballads Traditionally Sung in New England 3 pp.287-321 (version n2) Performer Sullivan, Ellen M. Place collected USA : Vermont : Springfield Collector Barry, Phillips ---- HOUSE CARPENTER, THE Source Flanders, Ancient Ballads Traditionally Sung in New England 3 pp.287-321 (version d) Performer George, Elmer Place collected USA : Vermont : East Calais Collector Flanders, Helen Hartness ---- HOUSE CARPENTER, THE Source Flanders, Ancient Ballads Traditionally Sung in New England 3 pp.287-321 (version j) Performer Mancour, Mrs. Alice Place collected USA : Vermont : Bellows Falls Collector Olney, Marguerite ---- HOUSE CARPENTER, THE Source Flanders, Garland of Green Mountain Song (1934) pp.80-82 Performer George, Elmer Place collected USA : Vermont : East Calais Collector Flanders, Helen Hartness ---- HOUSE CARPENTER, THE Source Library of Congress AAFS recording 3713 B Performer George, Elmer Place collected USA : Vermont : East Calais Collector Lomax, Alan & Helen Hartness Flanders ---- HOUSE CARPENTER Source Helen Hartness Flanders Collection (Middlebury College, Vermont) C4 A 04 Performer Daniels, Mrs. Myra Place collected USA : Vermont : East Calais Collector Flanders, Helen Hartness ---- HOUSE CARPENTER Source Helen Hartness Flanders Collection (Middlebury College, Vermont) C4 A 04 Performer George, Elmer Place collected USA : Vermont : West Montpelier Collector Flanders, Helen Hartness ---- HOUSE CARPENTER Source Helen Hartness Flanders Collection (Middlebury College, Vermont) D8 B 02 Performer George, Elmer Place collected USA : Vermont : North Montpelier Collector Flanders, Helen Hartness ---- HOUSE CARPENTER Source Helen Hartness Flanders Collection (Middlebury College, Vermont) D53 A 19 Performer George, Elmer Place collected USA : Vermont : North Montpelier Collector Flanders, Helen Hartness ---- HOUSE CARPENTER Source Helen Hartness Flanders Collection (Middlebury College, Vermont) D34 A 13 Performer Mancour, Mrs. Alice Place collected USA : Vermont : Bellows Falls Collector Flanders, Helen Hartness ---- HOUSE CARPENTER Source Helen Hartness Flanders Collection (Middlebury College, Vermont) T12 A 18 Performer Mancour, Mrs. Alice Place collected USA : Vermont : Bellows Falls Collector Flanders, Helen Hartness ---- HOUSE CARPENTER Source Helen Hartness Flanders Collection (Middlebury College, Vermont) C6 A 09 Performer Moses, Ruth Place collected USA : Vermont : North Woodstock Collector Flanders, Helen Hartness ---- HOUSE CARPENTER Source Helen Hartness Flanders Collection (Middlebury College, Vermont) C1 B 03 Performer Wales, Mrs. Place collected USA : Vermont : Burlington Collector Flanders, Helen Hartness ---- Connecticut HOUSE CARPENTER, THE Source Flanders, Ancient Ballads Traditionally Sung in New England 3 pp.287-321 (version h) Performer Degreenia, Oscar Place collected USA : Connecticut : West Cornwall Collector Flanders, Helen Hartness ---- HOUSE CARPENTER Source Helen Hartness Flanders Collection (Middlebury College, Vermont) T1 A 02 Performer Degreenia, Oscar Place collected USA : Connecticut : West Cornwall Collector Flanders, Helen Hartness ---- HOUSE CARPENTER Source Helen Hartness Flanders Collection (Middlebury College, Vermont) T1 A 09 Performer Degreenia, Oscar Place collected USA : Connecticut : West Cornwall Collector Flanders, Helen Hartness ---- New Hampshire HOUSE CARPENTER, THE Source Flanders etc., New Green Mountain Songster (1939) pp.95-97 Performer Merrill, Orlon Place collected USA : New Hampshire : Charlestown Collector Flanders, Helen Hartness ---- SHIP CARPENTER, THE Source Warner, Traditional American Folk Songs (1980) pp.137-138 Performer Fish, Lena Bourne Place collected USA : New Hampshire : East Jaffrey Collector Warner, Anne & Frank ---- YOUNG TURTLE DOVE Source Flanders & Olney, Ballads Migrant in New England pp.132-133 Performer Place collected USA : New Hampshire : Pittsburg Collector Olney, Marguerite ---- HOUSE CARPENTER, THE Source Flanders, Ancient Ballads Traditionally Sung in New England 3 pp.287-321 (version a) Performer Merrill, Orlon Place collected USA : New Hampshire : Charlestown Collector Flanders, Helen Hartness ---- HOUSE CARPENTER, THE Source Flanders, Ancient Ballads Traditionally Sung in New England 3 pp.287-321 (version e2) Performer Fish, Mrs. Lena Bourne Place collected USA : New Hampshire : East Jaffrey Collector Flanders, Helen Hartness ---- HOUSE CARPENTER, THE Source Flanders, Ancient Ballads Traditionally Sung in New England 3 pp.287-321 (version f) Performer Luther, Sidney Place collected USA : New Hampshire : Pittsburg Collector Olney, Marguerite ---- HOUSE CARPENTER, THE Source Flanders, Ancient Ballads Traditionally Sung in New England 3 pp.287-321 (version i) Performer Richards, Mrs. Belle Place collected USA : New Hampshire : Colebrook Collector Olney, Marguerite ---- HOUSE CARPENTER, THE Source Flanders, Ancient Ballads Traditionally Sung in New England 3 pp.287-321 (version k) Performer Reynolds, Maynard Place collected USA : New Hampshire : Pittsburg Collector Olney, Marguerite ---- HOUSE CARPENTER, THE Source Flanders, Ancient Ballads Traditionally Sung in New England 3 pp.287-321 (version l) Performer Wales, Mrs. Place collected USA : New Hampshire : Pittsburg Collector Flanders, Helen Hartness ---- SHIP CARPENTER, THE Source Flanders, Ancient Ballads Traditionally Sung in New England 3 pp.287-321 (version e1) Performer Fish, Mrs. Lena Bourne Place collected USA : New Hampshire : East Jaffrey Collector Flanders, Helen Hartness / Marguerite Olney ---- SHIP CARPENTER, THE Source Folktracks 922-90 (`Whisky in the Jar') Performer Fish, Lena Bourne Place collected USA : New Hampshire : East Jaffrey Collector Warner, Anne & Frank ---- YOUNG TURTLE DOVE, THE Source Flanders, Ancient Ballads Traditionally Sung in New England 3 pp.287-321 (version g) Performer Place collected USA : New Hampshire Collector ---- SHIP CARPENTER Source Helen Hartness Flanders Collection (Middlebury College, Vermont) D58 B 07 Performer Fish, Lena Bourne Place collected USA : New Hampshire : East Jaffrey Collector Flanders, Helen Hartness ---- SHIP CARPENTER Source Helen Hartness Flanders Collection (Middlebury College, Vermont) D59 B 10 Performer Fish, Lena Bourne Place collected USA : New Hampshire : East Jaffrey Collector Flanders, Helen Hartness ---- SHIP CARPENTER Source Helen Hartness Flanders Collection (Middlebury College, Vermont) D19 A 23 Performer Fish, Lena Bourne Place collected USA : New Hampshire : East Jaffrey Collector Flanders, Helen Hartness ---- HOUSE CARPENTER Source Helen Hartness Flanders Collection (Middlebury College, Vermont) C2 A 07 Performer Merrill, Orlon Place collected USA : New Hampshire : Charlestown Collector Flanders, Helen Hartness ---- HOUSE CARPENTER Source Helen Hartness Flanders Collection (Middlebury College, Vermont) D13 A 07 Performer Raynolds, Maynard Place collected USA : New Hampshire : Pittsburg Collector Flanders, Helen Hartness ---- HOUSE CARPENTER Source Helen Hartness Flanders Collection (Middlebury College, Vermont) D23 B 05 Performer Richards, Belle Luther Place collected USA : New Hampshire : Colebrook Collector Flanders, Helen Hartness ---- Rhode Island DAEMON LOVER, THE Source Flanders, Ancient Ballads Traditionally Sung in New England 3 pp.287-321 (version m) Performer Price, Edith Ballenger Place collected USA : Rhode Island : Newport Collector Olney, Marguerite ---- DAEMON LOVER Source Helen Hartness Flanders Collection (Middlebury College, Vermont) D46 A 13 Performer Price, Edward Ballinger Place collected USA : Rhode Island : Newport Collector Flanders, Helen Hartness |
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Subject: RE: Lyr Req: Demon Lover in New England? From: John Minear Date: 08 Dec 11 - 12:18 PM Thanks Mick. That gives us a sense of how these were spread out. If anybody has Flanders' book, I'd welcome additional information. J. |
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Subject: RE: Lyr Req: Demon Lover in New England? From: Mick Pearce (MCP) Date: 08 Dec 11 - 11:12 AM I've done a multiple field search on Roud for child 243 and that show up the following: Vermont: 16 Connecticut: 3 NH: 17 RI: 2 (May not be exact for NH; I had to skip a few other New... in the list while counting). Many come from Flanders: Ancient Ballads Traditionally Sung In New England. Mick |
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Subject: Lyr Add: THE SHIP CARPENTER (Lena Bourne Fish) From: John Minear Date: 08 Dec 11 - 10:20 AM Here is Lena Bourne Fish's version of "The Ship Carpenter" (C #243) from the Anne and Frank Warner Collection TRADITIONAL AMERICAN FOLK SONGS (1984). "Well met, well met, my pretty fair maid." "Not so very well met," said she. "For I am married to a ship carpenter, And a very fine man is he." "If you will forsake your ship carpenter And go along with me, I will teak you where the grass grows green On the banks of a sweet valee." "If I forsake my ship carpenter, And go along with thee, What have you there to entertain me on, To keep me from slavery?" "I have ships all in the bay, And plenty more upon land, Five hundred and ten of as fine young men, They are all at your command." She took her babe all in her arms, And gave him kisses three. "Stay at home, stay at home with your father dear, For he is good company." She had not sailed six weeks on the sea, I know not more than three, Before this fair lady began for to mourn, And she mourned most pitifully. "Now do you mourn for gold," he said, "Or do you mourn for me? Or do you mourn for your ship carpenter That you left to follow me?" "I do not mourn for gold," she cries, "Nor do I mourn for thee! But I do mourn for my ship carpenter And my pretty sweet babee" In the heavens there rose a big storm cloud, And how the waves did roar! At the bottom of the ship there sprang a leak And her mourning was heard no more. The music for this song is in the Warner book. It was recorded in East Jaffrey, New Hampshire, in July of 1940. Mrs. Fish did not give any specific information on where she got her version of this ballad. She was born in 1873 in Black Brook, in the Adirondacks of New York. Her father's family came from Scotland in the early 1700's and settled in Rhode Island and then moved to Cape Cod. Her mother's family were of English origin and her mother's grandfather was a colonel in the British Army. She probably learned songs from her father, especially her Irish songs, and perhaps some from her Uncle Butler, and perhaps some from the men who worked with her father. (Information from the Warners' book) While it is impossible to be specific about exactly where this version "came from", it seems clear that it is a New England version of "The Demon Lover." |
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Subject: RE: Lyr Req: Demon Lover in New England? From: John Minear Date: 07 Dec 11 - 04:46 PM "On the banks of the old Tennessee"! Where did that come from? Thanks for putting up De Marsan's broadside for us, Brian. Is there any information on where the earlier "Andrews" copy came from? When did the "Scots-Irish" immigration begin? If they brought their ballads with them, would this predate these broadside publications? Is Heylin's work on line by any chance? I have found out a bit more information on the Flanders' collection, thanks to this very comprehensive site: http://members.chello.nl/r.vandijk2/ChildBallads240-249.html This site gave me the names of the singers who sang "The House Carpenter" for Flanders, but it does not give any information on where they were from or any dates or background information. Apparently she collected this song (several different times or in several different versions in some cases from the same person?) from the following people: Belle Luther Richards, Edward Ballinger Price, Elmer George (3), Maynard Raynolds, Mrs. Alice Mancour (2), Mrs. Myra Daniels, Mrs. Wales, Oscar Degreenia, and Lena Bourne Fish (3). I would be very interested to know where these people lived. In fact, I do have further information on Lena Bourne Fish. Frank and Anne Warner also collected "The House Carpenter" from her. They published this in their book TRADITIONAL AMERICAN FOLK SONGS (1984), with music. There is also a snippet recording of this (the first several verses) on "Lena Bourne Fish" (Folktrax 922) - thanks again to CAMSCO. She was recorded by the Warners in East Jeffrey, New Hampshire. I will have some more to say about this version soon. |
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Subject: RE: Lyr Req: Demon Lover in New England? From: Brian Peters Date: 07 Dec 11 - 03:45 PM "typing in John Rae in the S.O.S.S.site brings up no results" My mistake: it's Joe Rae and the ballad is listed as 'Daemon Lover'. "this ballad was first published in 1657 (as a broadside?)" Yes, John - with a very lengthy title beginning 'A Warning for Married Women', and initialled by Lawrence Price, rhymester of the day. This is the same text as Child 243 A. But there's no reason to suppose that this version ever went to Massachsetts. You should look at Clinton Heylin's 'Dylan's Daemon Lover' a somewhat rambling and shambolically edited account that nonetheless contains some good research and gems of information. According to Child, he next known copy after the 1657 broadside is his version B, from 'The Rambler's Garland' (1785). However Heylin found the same version, titled 'The Ship Carpenter's Wife', in 'A Collection of Diverting Songs' ca. 1737, and he speculates that the author of this volume used a pre-existing broadside as the source, possibly pushing it back to the early 18th or even late 17th C. However this version is considerably different from the A text. I've pasted Heylin's transcription of the De Marsan broadside below. This is printed in the Journal of American Folklore v18 p207, but I can't access that. De Marsan was a reissue of an earlier copy attributed to J. Andrews of New York, supposedly in the Harris collection at Brown University, but not appearing in their online list. I'll get back to the discussion tomorrw. De Marsan broadside: Well met, well met, my own true love Long time have I been seeking thee I'm lately come from the Salt Seas And all for the sake, love, of thee I might have married a king's daughter You might have married her, cried she For I am married to a house-carpenter And a fine young man is he! If you will forsake your House-Carpenter And go along with me I will take you to where the grass grows high On the banks of old Tennessee! If I forsake my House-Carpenter And go along with thee What have you got to keep me upon And keep me from misery? Says he, I've got six ships at sea All sailing to dry land One hundred & ten of your own countrymen Love, they shall be at your command She took her babe upon her knee And kissed it one, two and three Saying, Stay at home, my darling sweet babe And keep your father's company! They had not sailed four weeks or more Four weeks, or scarcely three When she thought of her darling sweet babe at home And she wept most bitterly Says he, "Are you weeping for gold, my love Or are you weeping for fear Or are you weeping for your House-Carpenter That you left and followed me? I am not weeping for gold she replied Nor am I weeping for fear But I am weeping alone for my sweet little babe That I left with my house-carpenter Oh, dry up your tears, my own true love And cease your weeping, cried he For soon you'll see your own happy home On the banks of old Tennessee! They had not sailed five weeks or more Five weeks or scarcely four When the ship struck a rock and sprang a leak And they were never seen any more A curse be on the sea-faring men Oh cursed be their lives For while they are robbing the House-Carpenter And coaxing away their wives |
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Subject: RE: Lyr Req: Demon Lover in New England? From: John Minear Date: 07 Dec 11 - 08:48 AM It's good to hear from you, Brian. I was just going through the recorded versions I have of this ballad and had just finished listening to your fine rendition on "Songs of Trial and Triumph." I do have access to Bronson, thanks to Dick Greenhaus at CAMSCO, and I had noticed the same thing that you have pointed out, that out of 145 versions that he had found by 1966, only the two you mention above were from the New England area. I did find a possible third example as I went back over this material. It is the very last example that he gives, #145, from a Library of Congress recording sung by Allen Johnson in Portland (?), Oregon, and collected by William L. Alderson. It says that he learned this ballad in Calais, Maine. There is no date. This is actually a fairly complete version, with ten verses. Also, in his "Addendum" in Vol. IV, Bronson lists six additional examples all taken from Helen Hartness Flanders' ANCIENT BALLADS TRADITIONALLY SUNG IN NEW ENGLAND, III (I, B, K, E, H, & J.) However, no information is given on any of these, probably because of copyright issues. This book is not online, is out of print, very expensive in used form and currently unavailable to me from the library. I would welcome additional information on these six examples, including the lyrics. Brian, I found particularly helpful your discussion of the immigrant patterns and the areas from which these folks came. You mention in the liner notes to your album that this ballad was first published in 1657 (as a broadside?). That means it would have been current during the early settlement of Massachusetts. But as you point out, the people who settled the Massachusetts Bay Colony were not likely ballad singers. I wonder about the sailors who brought them over as a source. What happened to this ballad between 1657 and it's reappearance in print 200 years later in New York in the 1850's? Can anyone post a copy of the De Marsan (New York) broadside? I understand that it might be available in a journal article somewhere. This would be very helpful. So, what, if anything, has been discovered about this ballad in the New England area in the forty-five years since Bronson's publication? I'll be interested to see what we can turn up. |
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Subject: RE: Lyr Req: Demon Lover in New England? From: GUEST Date: 07 Dec 11 - 08:31 AM Brian--- typing in John Rae in the S.O.S.S.site brings up no results. The one result gives Andrew Stewart when the ballad title is typed in. |
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Subject: RE: Lyr Req: Demon Lover in New England? From: Brian Peters Date: 07 Dec 11 - 07:55 AM "a Scottish version of the Demon Lover can be heard on the School of Scottish Studies website--Tobar an Dualchais" Two, actually - although it sounds as if John Rae's version may owe something to Child. Thanks for that link. |
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Subject: RE: Lyr Req: Demon Lover in New England? From: GUEST Date: 07 Dec 11 - 07:29 AM a Scottish version of the Demon Lover can be heard on the School of Scottish Studies website--Tobar an Dualchais |
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Subject: RE: Lyr Req: Demon Lover in New England? From: Brian Peters Date: 07 Dec 11 - 06:37 AM John, do you have access to Bronson? In case you don't, that lists only two versions from New England: #53 (four verses), from Mrs. Susie Carr Young, Brewer, Me, recorded by George Hertzog in 1928 and published in Barry, Eckstrom & Smith 'British Ballds from Maine' (1929). #92 (11 verses) from Orlon Melville, Charlestown NH, recorded by Helen Hartness Flanders and published in 'The New Green Mountain Songster' (1939). Of Bronson's 145 versions from oral tradition, the vast majority are from the Appalachians, with Virginia very strongly represented. There are also a few from the Midwest (WI, MI, MO, AR) and a tiny number from the West (CA, OR). I don't see any at all from the Canadian maritimes, in contrast to many old British ballads. I think you have to put this distribution down to immigration patterns. The ballad was pretty much extinct in the British Isles by the 20th century (give or take an example each from Southwest England, Ireland and Scotland), but most of the earlier versions listed in Child were from Lowland Scotland - although Child's oldest examples are English broadsides. Since the most prominent immigrant group to have carried ballads into the Appalachians were the 'Scotch-Irish' (people of lowland Scots and Northern English origin who had settled in Ulster and then crossed the Atlantic), it isn't too surprising to find the 'Housecarpenter' / 'Demon Lover' most prevalent there, although its new lease of life is still pretty amazing. New England (as far as my limited knowledge extends) was settled originally by English puritans, with most of its English population having East Anglian roots - a region where there is no history of the ballad having been recorded. I understand that the popularity of the 'House Carpenter' version of the ballad owes much to a broadside published by De Marsan in New York in the 1850s - you could speculate that this broadside must have been distributed mostly in the Appalachian states where the ballad was already well known. |
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Subject: RE: Lyr Req: Demon Lover in New England? From: GUEST,henryp Date: 06 Dec 11 - 05:21 PM Andy Irvine put the words of the Child Ballad to a tune of his own on his CD Abocurragh, as the song seems to have died out in Britain and Ireland. It was one of the nominations for Best Traditional Track in the BBC Folk Awards 2011. In the sixties, Andy says, he sang the words to the House Carpenter tune. |
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Subject: Lyr Req: Demon Lover in New England? From: John Minear Date: 06 Dec 11 - 02:10 PM I'm looking for versions of Child #243, "The Demon Lover"/"The House Carpenter" that have been found in the New England region. The "literature" suggests that this was a wide-spread and popular ballad, but I am not turning up very much at all. What am I missing? I am looking for as much detail as possible, so I'm interested in specific collections, particular versions (with singer identification, location and date), literary references, and recorded editions of this ballad, and of course, lyrics. I am aware that there are a number of Canadian collections, but I am limiting my search at this point to the U.S. I'm especially interested in finding a version from Massachusetts. I'm guessing that the documentation on this ballad for New England is not as extensive as one might imagine. Thanks for your help. |
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