M. Carthy on The Critics Group - Radio 4

Subject: RE: M. Carthy on The Critics Group - Radio 4
From: Richard Mellish
Date: 03 Jan 12 - 06:34 AM

It's just started and I was tickled to hear that the BBC thinks MC is "Martin McCarthy". (I'm not missing it because I'm recording it to listen to later.)

Richard

Subject: RE: M. Carthy on The Critics Group - Radio 4
From: Les in Chorlton
Date: 03 Jan 12 - 07:01 AM

Go!

l in C#

Subject: RE: M. Carthy on The Critics Group - Radio 4
From: ChrisJBrady
Date: 03 Jan 12 - 07:03 AM

Not a bad programme but it could have been longer and gone deeper into Ewan MacColl's influence on the folk scene of the time. More songs would have been good too. It would be good if the Parker tapes could be digitised and uploaded online perhaps to Archive.org

Subject: RE: M. Carthy on The Critics Group - Radio 4
From: The Sandman
Date: 03 Jan 12 - 07:18 AM

Perhaps the BBC know something we don't, perhaps he changed his name to Carthy, why shouldn't he?.
his ancestors came from MAYO, McCarthy is the clan name, however names often got changed when people emigrated, it is hardly important

Subject: RE: M. Carthy on The Critics Group - Radio 4
From: Richard Bridge
Date: 03 Jan 12 - 07:52 AM

If they went to East Kent, would the band be re-named "Mayo Sandwich"?

(Apologies to Bob Kenward, he does a sizeable skit about this notion)

Subject: RE: M. Carthy on The Critics Group - Radio 4
From: Les in Chorlton
Date: 03 Jan 12 - 11:09 AM

Seemed like a well balanced take on EM and them Critics - no less than one might expect from MC et al.

Crucial Critics? Dunno. Seemed an interesting little corner of our folk history - none the worse for that - but so much more can be explored and BBC Radio 4 is a great place to have it done

L in C#

Subject: RE: M. Carthy on The Critics Group - Radio 4
From: Owen Woodson
Date: 03 Jan 12 - 11:16 AM

Terrible programme. Granted it wasn't long enough to turn round in, which makes me wonder why the producers even decided to tell such an important element of the folk revival in such a short space of time.

One consequence of this brevity was that the whole thing presumed a knowledge of the British folk revival, and Radio 4 is a general listening station. What the non-folk folks who turned it on made of it, I just shudder to wonder.

But its problems weren't just to do with space. Throughout, there seemed to be a desire to put the cart before the horse; to highlight the supposed deficiencies in MacColl's working methods (and personality flaws), and then to attribute its failure to the same.

It would have made a far better programme had the BBC placed more emphasis on the positive aspects of the Critics Group, such as the fact that it produced so many first rate singers, the fact that it resulted in some very interesting LPs, and the fact that some remarkable songs came out of the Critics Group. Remember Grey October?

I'll grant you that the recorded excerpts of the Critics Group meetings seemed to show MacColl in fine dictatorial fettle, and I remember a statement of his. It was to the effect that democracy doesn't work in the arts. According to MacColl there has to be a tyrant. And anyone who has studied the attempts of soviet orchestras in the early days of the USSR, to operate as co-operatives, might well concur.

But that leaves me with two questions. One is how selective were those extracts? If we were to listen to the entire set of recordings, or even to a substantial sampling, might we not come up with a more balanced view of MacColl's working methods, and might we not find that he was more willing to operate on a working consensus than the soundclip about writing Vietnam songs suggested?

The second question is, if it takes a tyrant, as MacColl is reputed to have claimed, where in the early 1960s would you have found anyone who was more erudite or better qualified?

Last of all, why give the job of narrator to Martin Carthy? By his own admission he was never a member of the Critics, and to my knowledge, has never done any research into the group's history. I know Carthy, albeit slightly, and I have always found him an extremely likeable and pleasant person, certainly not someone I would expect to harbour grudges going back half a century. Yet he came over as someone with a gigantic King Edward potato welded firmly to his shoulder.

I can think of one person who would have done an excellent job even with the limited time, and better still if more had been available. And that person is Sandra Kerr.

BTW., if Carthy was saying that membership of the Critics was by invitation only, then I happen to know he is wrong. No less a personage than Frankie Armstrong rang MacColl up and asked if she could join.

Subject: RE: M. Carthy on The Critics Group - Radio 4
From: John MacKenzie
Date: 03 Jan 12 - 11:16 AM

I chuckled at Peggy's defensiveness. Only what one would expect of course, loyalty and all that jazz.

Subject: RE: M. Carthy on The Critics Group - Radio 4
From: GUEST,Shimrod
Date: 03 Jan 12 - 12:07 PM

"It would have made a far better programme had the BBC placed more emphasis on the positive aspects of the Critics Group, such as the fact that it produced so many first rate singers, the fact that it resulted in some very interesting LPs, ..."

Yes, the Critics produced some fine records- London songs, Sea songs etc. The trouble is that critics outside of the Critics (if you get my meaning?) were, at the time, falling over themselves to slag them off as 'Ewan MacColl clones' etc. In fact they were nothing of the sort and were mainly highly talented individuals who turned in some excellent performances (and, in many cases, are still doing so).

Subject: RE: M. Carthy on The Critics Group - Radio 4
From: matt milton
Date: 03 Jan 12 - 12:25 PM

"Yet he [Martin Carthy] came over as someone with a gigantic King Edward potato welded firmly to his shoulder."

I didn't get that impression at all.

I thought that all concerned were pretty fair-minded, given how overwhelmingly pompous MacColl (bless im) came across in those recordings.

The most critical things (towards the process and towards MacColl) in that programme were voiced by the participants. Not by Martin Carthy.

If you really wanted to claim that programme as being an inditement of MacColl's pedagogy, you could point to the way it concluded with Roberta Flack's cover of one of his love songs.

While it didn't overtly say so, it adeptly demonstrated that MacColl - ironically - was at his most populist and likeable when he wasn't being a try-hard manifesto-follower.

(Me, I always thought both MacColl and Peggy Seeger's sloganeering, political songs were terrible, godawful and clunky; whereas their simple, autobiographical stuff - songs about love and family - have at least some poetry in their souls)

Subject: RE: M. Carthy on The Critics Group - Radio 4
From: Owen Woodson
Date: 03 Jan 12 - 01:01 PM

Matt Milton. "I didn't get that impression at all."

Probably a matter of opinion. What infuriated me was the way the programme went straight for the negative aspects of MacColl's character.

"given how overwhelmingly pompous MacColl (bless im) came across in those recordings"

The point I was questioning was how selective those excerpts were. I was never a member of the Critics but I can't imagine any group or organisation lasting five minutes if it had one memmber continually laying the law down like that.

"MacColl's pedagogy". I'm not sure I understand what you mean, but I'm at a loss to understand what The First Time and Roberta Flack were doing in a programme about the Critics Group.

"MacColl and Peggy Seeger's sloganeering, political songs were terrible, godawful and clunky". Here I do agree with you. I usually found MacColl's political songs to be far too dogmatic and table thumping, and much prefer most of the other stuff he wrote. But exceptions to the rule for me would include Brother Did You Weep, The Ballad of Tim Evans, The Parliamentary Polka and Legal-Illegal. However, MacColl was an established songwriter long before the Critics, and I was thinking more of songs which the other members wrote.

Subject: RE: M. Carthy on The Critics Group - Radio 4
From: matt milton
Date: 03 Jan 12 - 01:20 PM

The programme did give the impression that the Critics Group got more and more "critical" as it went on. Probably why it lasted as long as it did.

I rather got the impression that the Roberta Flack cover was there because it was an example of a song that was very different to the kind of songs the Critics Group were (allegedly) being encouraged to write.

I can't speak for the programme makers, but I'm guessing it was inserted into the programme to make the point that, despite a great deal of what he said and did, Ewan MacColl could actually write a decent love song when he wanted to. I think it's a shame he didn't write so simply more often.

Subject: RE: M. Carthy on The Critics Group - Radio 4
From: John MacKenzie
Date: 03 Jan 12 - 01:22 PM

It's a shame that some notable folkies have gone down the "politics" path. For me it ruins their appeal, and taints their work, even that which doesn't have a political slant. The other person I admire, but loathe his never ending political stance, is Billy Bragg.
It's allied in my mind with actors and singers who lend their name to political causes or parties. In so many cases they wouldn't be listened to, were it not for their celebrity gained in another arena.
Nor would the political party want to know them if it weren't for the fact that they hope a little of their glitz will rub off, and they might gain a few more votes.
It's a form of prostitution.
You don't want to knosw my political stance, why the fuck should I want to know yours?

Subject: RE: M. Carthy on The Critics Group - Radio 4
From: Les in Chorlton
Date: 03 Jan 12 - 01:34 PM

Politics is linked to old songs because many of the old songs were kept alive the generations of working people passing them on within and beyond their own communities through good times an bad

L in C#

Subject: RE: M. Carthy on The Critics Group - Radio 4
From: The Sandman
Date: 03 Jan 12 - 01:36 PM

Sandra Kerr was a member of the Critics group, so Kerr doing the job is rather like having a policeman investigating police corruption, a f#####stupid idea, far better to have had someone like Roy Harris, or bob davenport or johnny handle or MtheGM, im sure bob davenport would have had some interesting things to say, particularly as he one tried to give Ewan a bunch of fives

Subject: RE: M. Carthy on The Critics Group - Radio 4
From: Acorn4
Date: 03 Jan 12 - 01:58 PM

Were other members of the group allowed to criticise EMac ? This wasn't really made clear in the programme.

Subject: RE: M. Carthy on The Critics Group - Radio 4
From: The Sandman
Date: 03 Jan 12 - 02:32 PM

m the gm he would have been good.

Subject: RE: M. Carthy on The Critics Group - Radio 4
From: Richard Mellish
Date: 03 Jan 12 - 05:18 PM

I agree very much that it would be good to hear more of the tapes, both to hear the kinds of criticism that were made and understand better than from the very small samples how dictatorial or democratic it was, and of course just to hear all that singing by all those excellent people.

Matt said
> I rather got the impression that the Roberta Flack cover was there because it was an example of a song that was very different to the kind of songs the Critics Group were (allegedly) being encouraged to write.<

Perhaps that was the reason. It certainly is very different, in that the format is the singer addressing his lover. A lot of modern pop songs also take the form of the singer addressing his or her present or past lover, with the word "you" coming up a lot, whereas it's much rarer in the tradition. The ballads are almost exclusively third person and/or dialogue. The lyrical songs describe experiences, but generally seem to be addressed to the audience, not to the lover.

Richard

Subject: RE: M. Carthy on The Critics Group - Radio 4
From: Will Fly
Date: 04 Jan 12 - 04:33 AM

It's a shame that some notable folkies have gone down the "politics" path. [John MacKenzie]

That struck a chord with me as well, John. I'm not sure if my memory serves but, I believe Martin Carthy finished the programme by saying that MacColl had performed a service by reconnecting folk music to politics - or words to that effect. There's nothing that puts me off music more than an overt political message - though I can live with some satire and humour. When I heard the bit in the programme about the members of the Critics Group being told to go away and write a song about Vietnam "by next week", I felt disgusted. Not because I'm apolitical - far from it - but because, in essence, it was no different from Suffolk gentry telling their farm workers how to vote in the 1930s and 1940s (see "Akenfield" by Ronald Blythe).

Subject: RE: M. Carthy on The Critics Group - Radio 4
From: Acorn4
Date: 04 Jan 12 - 05:06 AM

Bill Bailey on Billy Bragg:-

Subject: RE: M. Carthy on The Critics Group - Radio 4
From: Les in Chorlton
Date: 04 Jan 12 - 05:06 AM

It seems clear that most "folk songs" are not overtly political. Songs about poaching often represent an act of resistance. Coal field balladry is something else again.

At the risk of repeating myself:

"Politics is linked to old songs because many of the old songs were kept alive the generations of working people passing them on within and beyond their own communities through good times an bad".

I don't think this was an act of resistance as such but they were not a function of middle or ruling class life. Sharp et al "saved" the songs from extinctinction and locked them up in CSH. McColl, and to be fair hundreds of others, directly or otherwise liberated the songs and endlessly made the point that they had survived for hundreds of years on the lips and in the minds of mostly agricultural working people.

We should celebrate Sharp et al, and we often do, but we should celebrate much more significantly an agricultural working class that had such a rich oral culture. And that is to some extent a political act.

I think

L in C#

Subject: RE: M. Carthy on The Critics Group - Radio 4
From: Acorn4
Date: 04 Jan 12 - 05:07 AM

Put the clip on this time: Bill Bailey on Billy Bragg:-

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=jo_9UgaxeJE

Subject: RE: M. Carthy on The Critics Group - Radio 4
From: MGM·Lion
Date: 04 Jan 12 - 05:10 AM

Thanks for your good opinion, Dick.

I have a sort of formula, which I think is my own invention: if someone sez "Why weren't you at so·&·so's party?",

I reply, "Oh, I wouldn't go after the way he insulted me."

"How did he insult you?"

"He didn't invite me."

I fear that Radio 4 'insulted' me thus. But, I repeat, thanks for your good opinion!

Seriously, tho: Martin was an excellent choice IMO, & did a perfectly good job of anchoring what was, as has been mentioned by several as an opinion, rather a thin programme; but I wonder to what extent he was allowed to participate in the selections from the tapes, and whether he wrote or devised his own narration or was required to work from someone else's script. I think we should be told ~ but somehow doubt whether we shall.

~Michael~

Subject: RE: M. Carthy on The Critics Group - Radio 4
From: Les in Chorlton
Date: 04 Jan 12 - 05:22 AM

"I think we should be told ~ but somehow doubt whether we shall."

Excellent stuff - lets cook up another bunch of conspiracy?

L in C#

Subject: RE: M. Carthy on The Critics Group - Radio 4
From: MGM·Lion
Date: 04 Jan 12 - 05:39 AM

Now, don't be roguish, Les. I only meant...

Oh, well, let it pass, let it pass!

~M~

Subject: RE: M. Carthy on The Critics Group - Radio 4
From: John MacKenzie
Date: 04 Jan 12 - 05:44 AM

Les, it is not really comparing apples with apples when you say the tradition was carried on by "the working class"
Many of the traditional songs were 'handed down' orally, as many of the singers were illiterate. In the days when many of these songs originate, there was no middle class, there was only 'them' and 'us'
TV and even radio, are 'new' in historical terms, we didn't have a TV till I was 14, and that was 1956. So if income was the ruling factor, as to whether you had a radio, or a TV, then of course the lower your income, the longer it is till you have 'canned' entertainment in the house. So you have to continue making your own.
Ergo, the oral tradition was a working class 'thing' for economic rather than cultural reasons.

Subject: RE: M. Carthy on The Critics Group - Radio 4
From: Les in Chorlton
Date: 04 Jan 12 - 06:03 AM

Fair enough Michael, I am just wary of us lot giving the BBC a hard time when all they did was make quite an interesting little 30 minute programme about a significant part of the Folk Revival.

Hi John, I don't think we are at odds here:

"the oral tradition was a working class 'thing' for economic rather than cultural reasons."

Economic indeed. Sharp et al targeted the rural working class for all kinds of reasons. They existed, before the Industrial Revolution, well below a smallish middle class of farm managers, clerics, traders, shop and property owners and so on. If we enjoy and sing their songs we are enjoying and singing the songs of the agricultural working class and probably sometimes the songs written for middle class entertainmnet.

MacColl and Lloyd and loads of others tried very hard to collect the songs of the Industrial working class with varied success. I guess they were looking historically at both groups.

Isn't the feature that unites most "folk songs" utility - they were created and sung for the joy of singing not for immediate finacial gain - although Broadside ballads certainly were.

L in C#

Subject: RE: M. Carthy on The Critics Group - Radio 4
From: BB
Date: 04 Jan 12 - 06:32 AM

"Sharp et al "saved" the songs from extinctinction and locked them up in CSH". Wherever did you get that idea from? They were never 'locked up' in CSH, but were published, in books, and in the FSS Journals, and were accessible through the VWM Library at CSH. Many of them were also still in existence in the mouths of the people who had always carried them - there were still many traditional performers around, certainly when MacColl's group was happening, as he and Peggy were aware.

On another point, I suspect that if Genevieve Tudor (of BBC Shropshire's Folk Show) were asked, she would be happy to explain the making of the programme, as she was instrumental in putting it on.

Subject: RE: M. Carthy on The Critics Group - Radio 4
From: Richard Bridge
Date: 04 Jan 12 - 06:33 AM

While I do think it is important that a singer of a folk song should think about its roots, I don't like the idea that there is a way that folk songs "should" be sung, I don't accept that the contemporary songs of MacColl are truly folk songs, and I'm buggered if I can see the relevance of Stanislavski technique or Laban theory to the singing of folk songs in that they are exemplars of artsy-fartsiness and thus the antithesis of folk arts.

Subject: RE: M. Carthy on The Critics Group - Radio 4
From: evansakes
Date: 04 Jan 12 - 06:53 AM

The programme was interesting from a historical point of view but was a bit of an eye-opener for me. Some of the autocratic sections may have been exaggerated but it made for awkward listening at times. The clips we heard from the meetings came across very much as tutorials. However the general intention to raise standards of performance was laudable.

Subject: RE: M. Carthy on The Critics Group - Radio 4
From: Acorn4
Date: 04 Jan 12 - 07:09 AM

From what I could make out of the Stanislawski technique, it just meant getting inside a song and performing it as opposed to just singing the words which good singers of all kinds do anyway.

Subject: RE: M. Carthy on The Critics Group - Radio 4
From: GUEST
Date: 04 Jan 12 - 07:23 AM

McColls recolections of the Ruen folk club in Greenock were a bit "Little Dorrit" for me. Yea it was in a disused shop with hotch potch of discarded tables and chairs ( I sat on one of those foldy down benches), and candles. Hells teeth I was fifteen on my visit and the rest were not much older, Jim McFadyen was seventeen and he was one of the people running it, a bit of a rebellious place with underage drinking by kids who were buzzing the Hunley in the holy loch in kayaks, I think McColl had never ruffed it, a middle class bore. Sticks in the craw to think he was pontificating to feral kids how to sing feral music. Has anyone thought that his failure to connect with this younger generation sent music the way of the Beatles, nah wasn't that important! (discuss.....bye!)

Subject: RE: M. Carthy on The Critics Group - Radio 4
From: Pete Jennings
Date: 04 Jan 12 - 07:42 AM

Interesting and informative thread, which happily hasn't descended into war.

Also, timely to see Jim Carroll mentioning "agit-prop" (17 Dec 11 - 03:07 PM). I've just written about this in an essay on Performance Art and for information there's an entry on Wikipedia and also on the Tate Gallery website here.

Also interesting to note the comments about teaching being ignored (Owen 17 Dec 11 - 10:08 AM): In 1960 the then student Allen Jones (went on to become quite successful...) was expelled from the Royal College of Art for being "too independant"! (biog).

This could be viewed as thread creep, I guess, but adds to the wider context IMO.

Subject: RE: M. Carthy on The Critics Group - Radio 4
From: Brian Peters
Date: 04 Jan 12 - 07:51 AM

Having never met MaColl nor heard him sing live, I've always been torn between admiration for his enthusiasm for and wholehearted approach to traditional ballads, his radio projects, and at least a part of his output as a songwriter, and - on the other hand - a distaste for his (reputed) didacticism and the more theatrical aspects of his singing style. But I'm afraid that the piece of criticism he unleashes at 20'34" on the unnamed composer of an anti-Vietnam-War song (apparently not the Vietnam song spliced into the programme immediately beforehand) has pushed me several degrees towards the 'anti' camp.

"It's a bore... it's a bore because it's dishonest - this is the main thing." Uttered with staggering, deadpan, matter-of-fact arrogance. Whatever the quality of the song itself, presenting personal opinion as incontrovertible fact in that way is contemptible. I hope the songwriter punched him.

"You have to be absolutely clear," he pronounces grandly, "...that you are writing from the outside - that you're not pretending that you're there." Huh?? So what was he doing when he wrote 'Shoals of Herring' or 'The Iron Road'?

Glad I wasn't around to be a member of that set-up!

Subject: RE: M. Carthy on The Critics Group - Radio 4
From: Howard Jones
Date: 04 Jan 12 - 08:04 AM

As it came across to me, McColl's purpose was not so much "how folk songs should be sung" as "how folk songs should be approached" - getting performers to think about the song, what layers of meaning they want to emphasise, and what style to adopt to achieve that. It's something a good performer does instinctively, the rest of us have to learn it, either by absorbing it from other performers or from a more intellectual approach. Stanislavsky and Laban are just formalised analyses of what good performers do instinctively.

The instinct in the folk world seems to be to shy away from anything which smacks of theatricality, as if it is somehow inauthentic. However the best of the traditional singers and musicians were undoubtedly performers, and used many of these techniques even though they had no formal training.

I found the programme very interesting. The Critics Group had already broken up by the time I got actively involved in folk music, but its presence was still felt. However this programme is the first time I've really understood what it was about, what it was for and what it was trying to achieve.

If the Critics Group itself was ultimately a failure, some of those involved with it had a significant impact on folk for many years to follow. It's a pity we don't seem to have a similar emphasis on performance these days - the situation described at the start of the programme which led to the group being formed could apply to many clubs today.

Subject: RE: M. Carthy on The Critics Group - Radio 4
From: greg stephens
Date: 04 Jan 12 - 08:06 AM

Ewan McColl was a pompous self-glorifying Stalinist control-freaking twat. Also a totally wonderful song-writer and singer. And an especially a totally genius radio programme maker.

Subject: RE: M. Carthy on The Critics Group - Radio 4
From: greg stephens
Date: 04 Jan 12 - 08:11 AM

To me the great thing about McColl is what he gets so often knocked for. He passionately and angrily believed that the folk songs he loved should be approached with thought and care and rehearsal. And he wasn't mealy-mouthed about telling other people so. Good for him!

Subject: RE: M. Carthy on The Critics Group - Radio 4
From: John MacKenzie
Date: 04 Jan 12 - 08:11 AM

That nails it down Greg.

Subject: RE: M. Carthy on The Critics Group - Radio 4
From: Les in Chorlton
Date: 04 Jan 12 - 08:32 AM

Fair enough BB, I was being provocative - although I seemed to have failed to provoke.

Locking up is an extreme version of my position. I came to it on thinking about what are generally called the First and Second Folk Revival. I am not sure that the first one was much of a song revival where as the second one certainly was. Sharp collected songs and published some. He sort to pass them to a largely middle class audience via piano led performances and teacher training. I guess the latter led to some working class children learning versions of some old songs.

I guess it's wrong to critisise Sharp with the advantage of hindsight so I will call it an observation. Has the Second Revival returned folks songs to the working class? Probably not but loads and loads of songs were sung at loads of folk clubs and in that sense the Second Reival has been and continues to be more successful.

L in C#
PS Spot on Greg, as usual

Subject: RE: M. Carthy on The Critics Group - Radio 4
From: GUEST,AlanG at work
Date: 04 Jan 12 - 08:57 AM

Les

"He sort to pass them to a largely middle class audience via piano led performances and teacher training"

I don't think Sharp targetted any particular class. His aim was to preserve the songs and to make tham as widely available as possible. The fact that he used the popular musical arrangements of his day to do that doee not make it class concious.

Subject: RE: M. Carthy on The Critics Group - Radio 4
From: The Sandman
Date: 04 Jan 12 - 09:18 AM

Brian Peters,I was around and I chose to go elsewhere, it might possibly have been a mistake.
I did meet EWAN, Furthermore I did a support for them[himself and Peggy]weds 11 nov 1988, phoenix art leicester.
I found that they were a bit out of touch with the then English Folk Revival, however they did a great set and were very well received.
I had previously booked them at my folk club in Bury St Edmunds , they were both courteous and professional and did an excellent spot, although Peggy seemed intimidated by my concertina playing.
On the previous occasion I met Ewan[1968 FARNINGHAM FOLK CLUB] , I could have happily punched him in his Hampsteads.
However I think i could have learned a lot from Ewan if I had attended the group, from both the songwriting and singing perspectives, but I prpbably was not mature enough to take criticism in an objective way

Subject: RE: M. Carthy on The Critics Group - Radio 4
From: Les in Chorlton
Date: 04 Jan 12 - 10:00 AM

Good point Alan, I don't dissagree with your point, Sharp did what he did as the man he was and it was amazing. I think the point I am failing to make is that it didn't lead to much of a revival of songs whilst I think the Second, our Revival did so.

The reasons that the second was so much more effective than the first were more to do with whatever the 60s were, so to speak

Cheers
Les

Subject: RE: M. Carthy on The Critics Group - Radio 4
From: ChrisJBrady
Date: 04 Jan 12 - 10:02 AM

Now on BBC iPlayer at:

http://www.bbc.co.uk/iplayer/episode/b018wy4j/How_Folk_Songs_Should_Be_Sung/

How Folk Songs Should Be Sung -

Immediately after the success of the BBC Radio Ballads, Ewan MacColl set about the Herculean task of trying to drag British folk music into mainstream culture. Frustrated by the dreary amateurishness of folk song performance, he decided to establish his own centre of excellence to professionalise the art. He called it "The Critics Group".

MacColl tutored select artists "to sing folk songs the way they should be sung" and to think about the origins of what they were singing. He introduced Stanislavski technique and Laban theory into folk performance and explored style, content and delivery.

BBC producer Charles Parker recorded these sessions to aid group analysis. 40 years on, the tapes have come to light. For the first time, a clear sound picture can be constructed of this influential group in action. Former group members Peggy Seeger, Sandra Kerr, Frankie Armstrong, Richard Snell, Brian Pearson and Phil Colclough recount six frantic years of rehearsing, performing and criticising each other. They recall the powerful hold that Ewan MacColl exerted which was eventually to lead to the collapse of the group in acrimony and blame.

Presenter Martin Carthy MBE, now an elder statesman of the British folk music scene, shared many of McColl's ambitions but didn't join the group himself. He listens to the recordings and assesses the legacy of MacColl's controversial experiment.

Producers: Genevieve Tudor and Chris Eldon Lee A Culture Wise Production for BBC Radio 4.

Broadcast on BBC Radio 4, 11:30AM Tue, 3 Jan 2012
Available until 12:02PM Tue, 10 Jan 2012
First broadcast BBC Radio 4, 11:30AM Tue, 3 Jan 2012
Duration 30 minutes

Can be listened to from the web page. Can be recorded using Audacity (with i/p as Stereo Mix). Can be downloaded using RadioDownloader.

Subject: RE: M. Carthy on The Critics Group - Radio 4
From: Baz Bowdidge
Date: 04 Jan 12 - 10:09 AM

Rather than fun and enjoyment it sounded like a disciplinarian route march. This programme demonstrates farcical shades of Captain Mainwaring in Ewan McColl.
I used to drive to my parents glancing down Stanley Avenue, Beckenham thinking to say hello perhaps it's just as well I didn't.

Subject: RE: M. Carthy on The Critics Group - Radio 4
From: Brian Peters
Date: 04 Jan 12 - 10:13 AM

"And he wasn't mealy-mouthed about telling other people so. Good for him!"

Agreed in principle, Greg, but there are ways of making constructive criticism that aren't as arrogant and offensive as the particular passage that I took exception to.

Subject: RE: M. Carthy on The Critics Group - Radio 4
From: John MacKenzie
Date: 04 Jan 12 - 10:38 AM

"Frustrated by the dreary amateurishness of folk song performance, he decided to establish his own centre of excellence to professionalise the art. He called it "The Critics Group"."

This in itself is an arrogant statement. It is both a value judgement, and a put down. There were then, and always have been, many excellent performers on the folk scene.
Ewan seemed to assume that if they weren't doing it his way, they were doing it wrongly!

Subject: RE: M. Carthy on The Critics Group - Radio 4
From: GUEST,matt milton
Date: 04 Jan 12 - 10:42 AM

I agree with whoever it was that said that the one truly glaring omission of the programme was the question "did the round-table criticism extend to Ewan's (and Peggy's) own material?". That's the screamingly obvious question the programme logically should have asked.

Subject: RE: M. Carthy on The Critics Group - Radio 4
From: The Sandman
Date: 04 Jan 12 - 10:57 AM

THE IMPORTANT REMARK BY SANDRA KERR, is that you could work at this stuff.
However it is also true that many of us were working at our material without going to the critics group, and have been doing so for many many years.
BUT THE STANDARD IN 1968[in my opinion] in folk clubs was much higher, you could not get on to do a floor spot a second time, if you forgot your words,nobody was allowed to read their words in front of an audience, most clubs were full with about 100 people.
so Martins comment about singers shambling on and forgetting verses, was not my experience, in fact I will contradict Martin, and say that this is more the case now in 2011 In singaround clubs, than it was in guest booking folk clubs in 1968,
but this doesnt alter the fact that the idea of working on material is a good idea whether it be 1968 or 2011.

Subject: RE: M. Carthy on The Critics Group - Radio 4
From: The Sandman
Date: 04 Jan 12 - 11:09 AM

I was going to folk clubs in 1966, I can remember performers like derek brimstone. johnny silvo. gerry lockran, ralph mctell,pete and marion grey, cyril tawney. wizz jones pete stanley these performers did not come on to stage shambling or forgetting their words, sorry, but Martin[in my opinion] is giving a false impression.

Subject: RE: M. Carthy on The Critics Group - Radio 4
From: janemick
Date: 04 Jan 12 - 12:08 PM

It would be illuminating to see a transcript of the tapes to get an idea of how selective the editing was. I agree with TwickFolk that the programme was interesting but made for uncomfortable listening at times. I cannot think that this group would have lasted as long as it did if EMcC had been as overbearing as this all the time.

but I also totally agree with you, Greg (Stephens). I dont think there is anything more toe-curlingly embarrassing than the "I-haven't-quite-learned-this-yet-but-I'll-give-it-a-go" approach to performing. I'm all for "thought and care and rehearsal" all the better to tell the story!

Jane