BS: Young Earth Creationism Eureka!

Subject: RE: BS: Young Earth Creationism Eureka!
From: GUEST,pete from seven stars link
Date: 10 Feb 12 - 04:29 PM

bill-just to show that i do consider an opposing argument;i confirm that i did read your post.i do agree that the geographical distance does appear to limit the force of the creation.com article.
as to the use of evolutionary time scales ;to seek to demonstrate that a theory is fallible even by its own proponents is IMO quite in order.

don-seems to me you are making some sweeping and unwarrented statements claiming[if i dont misunderstand you]that religion only benifits its adherents.there are numerous faith based charities that give aid and support to all comers regardless of whatever faith position.
i wonder too if there was more to pius than you know.i am not RC but i have heard that the pope did in fact shield a number of jews and instucted his cardinals also with the result that he saved more than those on schindlers list.he was later lauded as a "righteous gentile" by israels PM.

Subject: RE: BS: Young Earth Creationism Eureka!
From: GUEST,pete from seven stars link
Date: 10 Feb 12 - 04:54 PM

sorry forgot we got 2 dons;wysywig that was.

Subject: RE: BS: Young Earth Creationism Eureka!
From: Don Firth
Date: 10 Feb 12 - 05:07 PM

pete:

don-seems to me you are making some sweeping and unwarrented statements claiming[if i dont misunderstand you]that religion only benifits its adherents.there are numerous faith based charities that give aid and support to all comers regardless of whatever faith position.

Indeed, you do misunderstand me. The church I belong to does not benefit only its adherents. It's a small church, with a congregation of about 200, most of whom are fairly young working people (including, I might add, a number of attorneys and one state legislator). It is not a wealthy church, but it is not poor, either.

When people come into the main room in the parish house next to the church, where the meals are served, they are not subjected to having to "pay for the soup by listening to the sermon," NOR are they asked what their religious affiliation is—nor are they asked if they HAVE any religious affiliation. The "soup" (a considerably more sumptuous meal that merely a bowl of soup) is free to anyone in need. The same holds true for LATCH (the Lutheran Alliance To Create Housing). No one is asked about their religion, if any, as a precondition to living in one of these facilities, nor are they hassled once they do.

Anyone in need. pete, I don't think Jesus had the sick fill out a questionnaire before He healed them.

I know for a fact that there are many self-proclaimed "Christians" who haven't a clue as to what Christianity is all about.

Don Firth

Subject: RE: BS: Young Earth Creationism Eureka!
From: Don Firth
Date: 10 Feb 12 - 05:08 PM

Cross posted.

Nevertheless, my post is to the point.

Don Firth

Subject: RE: BS: Young Earth Creationism Eureka!
From: Paul Burke
Date: 10 Feb 12 - 05:44 PM

i have heard that the pope did in fact shield a number of jews

I've heard he shielded a number of Nazis. Funny world ain't it?

Subject: RE: BS: Young Earth Creationism Eureka!
From: GUEST,999
Date: 10 Feb 12 - 07:29 PM

"I do not require or expect everyone to believe...(or not believe)... as I do, but I DO expect them to KEEP those beliefs to themselves and to their churches and not usurp my rights."

I didn't say it so eloquently, Don: "You have a right to your opinion and along with that goes the right to keep quiet about."

Subject: RE: BS: Young Earth Creationism Eureka!
From: Bill D
Date: 10 Feb 12 - 07:43 PM

The Pope was in Italy...Italy was facist and supporting Hitler. The Pope tried to "not get involved". He was roundly criticized for his lack of a stand.

Subject: RE: BS: Young Earth Creationism Eureka!
From: Don(Wyziwyg)T
Date: 10 Feb 12 - 08:22 PM

""The Pope was in Italy...Italy was facist and supporting Hitler. The Pope tried to "not get involved". He was roundly criticized for his lack of a stand.""

Slight error there Bill.

The Vatican is not part of Italy, but an independent city state, and the Fascists would never have risked invading it, because that would have ensured the complete annihilation of the Fascists in the inevitable uprising of Italy's vast Catholic majority.

Even after Italy dropped out, the Nazis left the Vatican alone in spite of having driven catholicism underground in the whole of occupied Europe.

_____________________________________________________________________

My comments about not benefitting any other than believers were aimed at the fundamentalists in Christianity who have historically persecuted non believers (Charlemagne, Richard I, Torquemada etc etc).

Of course there are moderate Christians who give help to all who need it, but they are not the kind of people who are attempting to corrupt the minds of children, nor the kind who are currently trying to turn the USA into an Iranian style theocracy.

If they ever succeed, Sharia law will begin to look like a better alternative before too long.

Don T.

Subject: RE: BS: Young Earth Creationism Eureka!
From: Don Firth
Date: 10 Feb 12 - 09:12 PM

It's the liberal Christian churches, such as the one that I belong to, who have a great deal at stake in the matter of a fundamentalist Christian takeover of this country, for obvious reasons. A Christian church that has no problem with scientific findings on the age of the universe, or with evolution, will be some of the first people to take it in the shorts should such a thing should ever happen.

The problem with suppressing freedom of religion is that your religion might just be one of those that gets suppressed! And if you happen to be an atheist or an agnostic—

Well, they used to hang them or burn them at the stake back in the Good Olde Days.

I'm glad we have a couple of attorneys and a state legislator in our congregation to keep an sharp eye on things.

Don Firth

Subject: RE: BS: Young Earth Creationism Eureka!
From: GUEST,Iona
Date: 11 Feb 12 - 01:19 AM

""Therefore you can't judge anybody, because they define good differently. Only I can say that I have absolute right and wrong, because the God of the universe has revealed it to us in His Word.""

I am so sorry Your Holiness, I didn't realise......How are things in the Vatican these days?

*goes into gales of laughter*
Pardon. You are misreading what I said. I'm saying that the Christian worldview (mine) is the only one that can truly uphold absolute right and wrong. And I've demonstrated that a number of times. Just because y'all refuse to answer my claims directly doesn't disprove my point. (although you seem comfortable in resorting to constantly insinuating that I am completely ignorant on all issues, etc, etc. This is why I like formal debates better. Generally the moderator won't let the debaters degrade themselves to the level of ad hominem insults.)

Subject: RE: BS: Young Earth Creationism Eureka!
From: GUEST,Iona
Date: 11 Feb 12 - 01:32 AM

""Anyway, the fact that I shan't read it isn't because I'm not interested to, because I *would* like to read it. I just don't have the money to buy it. (it's over 30 dollars). But I plan on getting Darwin's Origins from the library as soon as I finish the book I'm reading at the moment.""

Then perhaps you should stop spouting arrant nonsense, and wait until, by reading it, you actually know something about the subject. And just remember knowledge tends to enter only those minds which are open....not a trait much associated with the Creationist publications you have been relying on thus far.

Don T.

Aha. I see. So this is your logic. I can't carry out an intelligent argument with evolutionists unless I've read their bible (Darwin). Then reverse that. Have you read the Bible from cover to cover? If not, then you should stop spouting arrant nonsense and wait until, by reading it, you actually know something about the subject. And just remember, understanding tends to enter only those minds which are open....not a trait much associated with the Evolutionist publications you have been relying on thus far.

I'll make you a deal. I promise to read Darwin from cover to cover if you promise to read the King James Bible (or the Geneva, my favorite translation) from cover to cover. This challenge is open to any of you. Now, comes the question: Whose got the guts to take me up on it??

Iona

Subject: RE: BS: Young Earth Creationism Eureka!
From: Don Firth
Date: 11 Feb 12 - 01:37 AM

Iona, I already have.

Don Firth

Subject: RE: BS: Young Earth Creationism Eureka!
From: GUEST,Iona
Date: 11 Feb 12 - 03:04 AM

And you have no basis to take any high moral attitudes, when you believe that the bible is the immutable "Word of God", true in every detail, then decry those Muslims who believe in stoning adulterers to death, which is exactly what YOUR God is demanding of you if your belief is correct.
You cannot have it both ways. Either the bible is, as YOU claim "the immutable Word of God", in which case you'll be needing a good supply of rocks, or it isn't, in which case your slavish belief falls flat on its face

Let's get this clear here and now. I believe that what God says to be good is good. I do not believe that the Christian (Biblical) God is the same God as the Muslim god. Islamism is internally self contradicting, just as any other religion besides Christianity is, which I've explained a number of times before.
If God says something is good, it is good. If God says to stone adulterers, then so be it. . Of course there must be a trial, and two or three witnesses, etc. But the fact that God decreed death as the punishment for adultery tells us just how serious a sin it is. God is a judge--the Perfect Judge. For instance, if one was to come home one day and find their family slaughtered on the floor and the killer standing over them,(and if you have the self-control not to kill him in return), you'd take him to court as a murderer. The Judge looks at the man and says "You are guilty. You have broken the law, and you deserve punishment. But since I am a compassionate judge, I will not punish you for your crime. You're free to go." What would you do? You'd go to every newspaper, the President, anything, to tell the world that there is a judge that holds office that is more corrupt than the criminals whom he presides over. God is not a corrupt judge. He cannot, since He is good and perfect and holy, let sinful, wicked men into heaven. He cannot forgive them. He is completely and utterly just and right in condemning them to death, to the supreme Death of @#!*% , because to transgress against the holy God in the slightest is to commit such a grievous sin that it demands supreme justice.
There is forgiveness, but in only one way: Jesus Christ and His death on the Cross. If we aren't forgiven, every one of us is headed to our just punishment-- @#!*% .

I believe in capital punishment because God ordains it in his word. We all deserve it, and cannot escape it of ourselves.

Subject: RE: BS: Young Earth Creationism Eureka!
From: DMcG
Date: 11 Feb 12 - 03:08 AM

As indeed have I. It's not actually the translation I prefer, but there you are.

"I do not require or expect everyone to believe...(or not believe)... as I do, but I DO expect them to KEEP those beliefs to themselves and to their churches and not usurp my rights."

I think this concept, which has been raised serveral times in several forms already in this thread goes to the heart of the problem. And, perhaps suprisingly, I'm more inclined to Pete and Iona's view than you might think.

The critical problem is what happens when someone holds a sincere belief in X, when society in various forms prohibits it.   Since creationism, Young Earth and so are so contentious, let my pick up Don Firth's approach to feeding the hungry, because I make the assumption that all the people reading this thread generally find that admirable. Ok, so now let's assume that society, for again generally agreed reasons, wants to insist all food providers have a minimum set of hygene certificates, everyone working with vulnerable people is checked every x months for criminal records, all the buildings have fire checks and so on and so forth I know much of that already happens, and no doubt Don's work addresses it, but there can easily come a point where the regulations actually make it impossible for Don's work to continue legally.   Do we go along with the premise that Don's group stop work because it doesn't fit properly with society? Should we say to Don believe what you like, but don't act upon it? I doubt if there is any reader of this thread who thinks that.   

Yesterday in the UK an appeal was declined concerning two bed-and-breakfast keeper who had refused to allow a gay couple to stay in their property, which is in breach of the law. I happen to agree with the law on this one, but appreciate that what the law is saying to these people is 'believe what you like, but behave as if you believe the opposite'. Even if they close the bed-and-breakfast and do something else entirely, the state is still saying they cannot follow their beliefs in the way they think they are required to.


Another example in the news that also touches on this relationship between individual and state is an current argument about contraception.


I don't believe there is a definitive answer to this what this relationship is: it is some mess that needs to be sorted out case by case. Maybe in a few centuries we will be able to see some clear rules, but I tend to doubt it.


But there is one approach that is think is - almost! - always valid: those who have such and such a belief should [short of violence] do everything they can to persuade us to let them act on their beliefs. And those opposing them should continually make the case why that should not happen. Which is why I'm happy for Pete and Iona to make their points, and why I respond. And of course I an not responding as 'society', just as another individual.

Subject: RE: BS: Young Earth Creationism Eureka!
From: DMcG
Date: 11 Feb 12 - 03:31 AM

Oh, dear, Iona. Your post arrived while I was composing mine. There was I trying to give a reason why you should be heard, while you were busily advocating the re-introduction of stoning. I said some posts back that I was quite content for you to be described as 'nice', but really I can hardly maintain that now, can I? Not that I expect you to care either way. *smile*

Subject: RE: BS: Young Earth Creationism Eureka!
From: Penny S.
Date: 11 Feb 12 - 03:35 AM

"I'll make you a deal. I promise to read Darwin from cover to cover if you promise to read the King James Bible (or the Geneva, my favorite translation) from cover to cover. This challenge is open to any of you. Now, comes the question: Whose got the guts to take me up on it?? "

What about if we already have? And why those particular versions? Any objections to those written with more recent scholarship and understanding of the source languages? And I can't, but what about those who have read them in the original Hebrew or Greek - I guess there are some here who have.

As for your vision of God, God help us. He came, himself, to show us He is not like that. Born in a filthy stable, mixing with sinners without checking out their repentance first, allowing Himself to be tortured to death. That's how He sees holiness.

Penny

Subject: RE: BS: Young Earth Creationism Eureka!
From: Penny S.
Date: 11 Feb 12 - 03:55 AM

I've been on a quest through my computer.

Last time I came across that appalling vision of a deity so obsessed with his own holiness, this came to me, like ministry in Meeting. But I've not known what to do with it. It is a bit difficult to post something which came in a first person form, when God is the first person.

"This is a response to the argument that God is so holy that he cannot bear the presence of sin, and so must send those who will not be cleaned by accepting Christ to eternal torment in hell.

I am the sort of Holy who is born as you are born, borne from the lesser kind, from the place some think the gate of hell.
I am the sort of Holy who becomes a baby, demanding and dirty, dependent on your care.
I am the sort of Holy who grows as you grow, eating and drinking, coughing and sneezing, totally human.
I am the sort of Holy who shows that the only Holy place is not in the Temple, where only one priest may go, as heathens think.
I am the sort of Holy who shows you I am with you always, in all that you do, who becomes your Temple.
I am the sort of Holy who tears down the curtain between the Holiest place and you.
I am the sort of Holy who asks you not to think the only Holy place is Heaven, for Heaven is with you now.
I am the sort of Holy who comes out of Heaven's Holiness, to bring Holiness to you.
I am the sort of Holy who will not be set apart, who call myself "Emmanuel".
I am the sort of Holy who seeks out the outcasts, the sinners, the despised.
I am the sort of Holy who hunts down the lost, the set apart, to bring them in to Me.
I am the sort of Holy you will meet in the hungry, the sick, the prisoner, the refugee.
I am the sort of Holy you will meet in the givers, the healers, those who care for others, no matter where they come from, what they believe.
I am the sort of Holy who submits to torture, takes your pains upon Himself.
I am the sort of Holy who dies as fallen men die, a death some think damns all who suffer it.
I am the sort of Holy before whom Hell is meaningless and empty.
I am the sort of Holy who shows you at the end that life was worth it, that I cannot be gainsaid.
I am the sort of Holy who knows no boundaries, not death, not Holiness, but Love."

Penny

Subject: RE: BS: Young Earth Creationism Eureka!
From: GUEST,Ian Mather sans cookie
Date: 11 Feb 12 - 05:08 AM

Iona believes in capital Puishment?

Doesn't sound too Christian to me.. Barbaric, disgusting and a sign of society failing, but certainly not Christian. I'm no expert, but I do remember my RE teacher saying something about forgiving. Incarceration can fit in with that but murdering people ends them in every way and as we are now talking the real world, we can dismiss the heaven and hell nonsense because when you kill someone, it really is the end.

Hw can you justify that anyway, let alone using fairy stories twisted to suit your own bigotry?

Subject: RE: BS: Young Earth Creationism Eureka!
From: Joe Offer
Date: 11 Feb 12 - 05:32 AM

Well, yes, Ian. There are lots of Christians who take the Bible literally until they get to the parts that say "love one another" and "do unto others" and "turn the other cheek."
Somehow, they find it far more important to take the creation myths literally.

-Joe-

Subject: RE: BS: Young Earth Creationism Eureka!
From: GUEST,Paul Burke
Date: 11 Feb 12 - 05:56 AM

Judge not lest you yourself be judged? I've quite forgotten where that came from*...

Christians have been keen supporters of capital punishment, legally inflicted or not, since the earliest times. Look up Priscillian. Then look up Hypatia. That's mostly because, like so many who have been persecuted, their first thought on emancipation is to seize power over others. Not at all helped by odd words on the subject from the sect's eponym, who was just a man of his time, and appears to have thought it quite ordinary, along with slavery and ignorance of science.

And despite not having been persecuted in a dozen centuries, seizing power over others is the agenda that these talibs have set themselves. Attempts to introduce creationism into the school science syllabus have been made in many US states, and the campaign against legal recognition of homosexual relationships is similarly widespread. They have made serious inroads into the US military, where profession of extreme Christianity is a prerequisite for advancement in many areas, perhaps as a reaction to similarly extreme Islam.

This is not a condemnation of all Christianity- there are many decent Christians whose beliefs do not require the denial of reality- but it's long been a mystery to me why they allow themselves to be associated with the extremists, and why they seldom speak out.

*apart from "somewhere in the bible"

Subject: RE: BS: Young Earth Creationism Eureka!
From: Steve Shaw
Date: 11 Feb 12 - 06:17 AM

I may not be the Bible scholar that some of you lot purport to be (you'd hardly expect me to be, would you? ;-)), but would one of you be kind enough to point to the bit where Jesus swept away the old fifth commandment and put a harsher alternative in its place?

Subject: RE: BS: Young Earth Creationism Eureka!
From: Steve Shaw
Date: 11 Feb 12 - 06:31 AM

I can't carry out an intelligent argument with evolutionists unless I've read their bible (Darwin)

"Darwin", by which I assume you mean On The Origin Of Species, is not a bible. It does not look like a bible, it does not read like a bible and it does not attract the reaction that a bible does. It does not contain stories, parables or myths and it is entirely predicated on conclusions drawn from evidence (not tradition, witness, threats, hearsay or edict). It is absolutely the polar opposite of a bible. It may be questioned (in fact, it MUST be questioned - that's what scientific endeavour is all about), updated in the light of new knowledge unknown to its author, particularly in the fields of genetics and biochemistry, expanded, illustrated and revised. If I tell you I don't believe in the Bible and want to speak up against it, you consign me to the eternal flames. If you tell me you don't believe in Origin and want to speak up against it, you're just plain daft.

Subject: RE: BS: Young Earth Creationism Eureka!
From: Steve Shaw
Date: 11 Feb 12 - 06:32 AM

More italics troubles. Aaargh!

[you put the backslash on the wrong side of the 2nd i--lyxdexic, no doubt---- bemused clone]

Subject: RE: BS: Young Earth Creationism Eureka!
From: Don(Wyziwyg)T
Date: 11 Feb 12 - 06:43 AM

""Pardon. You are misreading what I said.""

I reproduced exactly what you said and responded in exactly the way your comment deserved.

As to ignorance, that is not an ad hominem attack. It is an accurate description of your displayed, and self confessed) lack of knowledge of that which you profess to be debating.

In a formal debate, you would be soundly defeated.

Don T.

Subject: RE: BS: Young Earth Creationism Eureka!
From: Don(Wyziwyg)T
Date: 11 Feb 12 - 06:53 AM

""Aha. I see. So this is your logic. I can't carry out an intelligent argument with evolutionists unless I've read their bible (Darwin). Then reverse that. Have you read the Bible from cover to cover?""

Short answer YES!

Long answer, numerous times in studying at one of the best Catholic schools in England.

Even our Catholic teachers (Jesuit brothers with a violent line in discipline) didn't hold the bible, Old or New Testament, to be a factual account of human history, and not once did Religious Instruction teachers claim scientific status for their subject.

The school turned out some pretty fine scientists too.

So you see I do have knowledge of both sides of the debate, so, why don't you stop making unwarranted assumptions about others and get yourself up to speed.

Don T.

Subject: RE: BS: Young Earth Creationism Eureka!
From: GUEST,Shimrod
Date: 11 Feb 12 - 07:01 AM

According to 'Christian' religious fundamentalists, like Iona and pete, the Bible is the 'final word' on everything (except relativity, quantum mechanics, digital technology, molecular biology, pop music, muscle cars, Leonardo Da Vinci, Charles Dickens, the Battle of Agincourt, printing, exo-planets, ice cream, Martian geology, Beethoven etc., etc., etc.).

Science, on the other hand, is NOT equivalent to religious faith because its conclusions are always provisional and its practice is on-going. To compare the Bible with 'On the Origin of Species' shows a deep and profound misunderstanding of how religion and science relate to each other (if they relate to each other at all).

By the way, I notice that Iona is very selective about the posts that she responds to - why am I not surprised?

Subject: RE: BS: Young Earth Creationism Eureka!
From: Don(Wyziwyg)T
Date: 11 Feb 12 - 07:01 AM

""If God says something is good, it is good. If God says to stone adulterers, then so be it. .""

But if Allah says the same thing it is wrong?....""I do not believe that the Christian (Biblical) God is the same God as the Muslim god. Islamism is internally self contradicting, just as any other religion besides Christianity is, which I've explained a number of times before.""

Do you actually read what you are writing? You are internally self contradicting and I simply do not believe that God has anything to do with the claptrap you produce.

Don T.

Subject: RE: BS: Young Earth Creationism Eureka!
From: DMcG
Date: 11 Feb 12 - 07:08 AM

Ignorance is not too bad a thing in own right. We all start off ignorant. A deliberate and cultivated ignorance is another matter. There a number of points where iona's position appears self-contractory, not merely at odds with science and the evidence but with itself. And whenever this happens the response is to pretend the issue isn't there. That's what i mean by deliberate ignorance, not. Failing to read this or that article.

I think we are now waiting to hear Pete's view on the appropriateness of stoning adulters today in the US and UK.

Subject: RE: BS: Young Earth Creationism Eureka!
From: GUEST,Ian Mather
Date: 11 Feb 12 - 07:25 AM

If the bible says it is ok to get stoned, then lead on!

Actually, on a more serious note, threads like this can make me feel bad. When you get genuine people like Don Firth and Joe Offer on the thread, you know they put a lot of store by using their faith as a moral compass and it saddens me that my pointing out what I believe to be reality checks must be somewhat painful to read, as it appears that many of us are dismissing what they hold dear.

Methinks my approach of purposely insulting creationalists can be seen to be broader than it is intended. My stance is that you can have your faith in a God as I can have my faith in Sheffield Wednesday and lottery tickets. Just don't tell me they can't play football or that my ticket isn't my passport to paradise (eventually)

However, to spout literal interpretation drivel is ultimately damaging. I truly believe children and vulnerable adults need protecting from the likes of Iona and starry Pete. Whilst trying not to introduce Godwin's law, we are aware of how repeating a lie often enough gives it credibility amongst shallow minds.

Subject: RE: BS: Young Earth Creationism Eureka!
From: Stu
Date: 11 Feb 12 - 08:18 AM

"There a number of points where iona's position appears self-contractory, not merely at odds with science and the evidence but with itself. And whenever this happens the response is to pretend the issue isn't there. That's what i mean by deliberate ignorance, not. Failing to read this or that article."

Well, as Iona will not debate with me whenever I point out the flaws in her argument I agree, but her refusal to address, though she is busy with fuzzy concepts like 'good' and 'evil', which you could go on arguing about for ever. My only comment there is that if you need someone to tell you what your moral and ethical outlook on life is, that you should treat other living beings with compassion and empathy then you're not much of a thinker anyway.

If Iona is not acquainted with the facts of the issues she raises as arguments for her cause (SFG's passim), then she needs to stop and research the subject. She is obviously ignorant of some remarkably basic facts (.i.e. "Waves create ripples as they come into shore. But when the waves go back out, they erase the ripples."), and this means her arguments are full of misunderstanding, speculation and supposition. That's OK as she can remedy this and get some education, provided she can get over being blinded by the word of God and express her (to her God-given) natural curiosity.

If however she is actually acquainted with the facts and she's choosing to ignore them then she's committing an intellectual crime; she's not only ignoring the evidence of palaeontology and biology but also evidence from chemistry, physics, geology, astronomy and a whole host of other scientific disciplines too. She doesn't even understand what a theory is, and making statements like "Under evolutionary theory, a cat ought to be able to turn into a dog, given enough beneficial mutations and enough time." means she doesn't understand even the most basic understanding of biology, let alone anything else.

One more thing. If all this marvellous biological complexity we see around is the work of a creator or designer, then they're a bit crap and lack imagination to be sure. For a start, the people made in their own image are not brilliantly designed, with our eyes being particularly badly designed (to be fair they've had a bash with several other designs in molluscs and arthropods which are better, but why they'd give a squid better eyes than themselves is a bit of a poser. All tetrapods conform to a single body plan. What's that about? There must be an infinite variety of body plans that could be used but there's only one for all mammals, reptiles, amphibians and birds. You get the odd early tetrapod with six or eight toes or whatever, but even they still conform to the basic body plan . . . hmmmm.

Looks the blind watchmaker wasn't so smart after all.

Subject: RE: BS: Young Earth Creationism Eureka!
From: GUEST,999
Date: 11 Feb 12 - 09:29 AM

"If the bible says it is ok to get stoned, then lead on!"

OK, Ian. I'll be back in five.

Subject: RE: BS: Young Earth Creationism Eureka!
From: Paul Burke
Date: 11 Feb 12 - 09:33 AM

Don:

You won't be surprised to know that these nutters don't accept Catholics as Christian. Nor Episcopalians, nor anyone but themselves. And they can't understand that they are "interpreting" the Bible as much as any freethinker.

Take a few random examples: Thou shalt not bear false witness against thy neighbour. Clear enough, but what does it mean by "false witness"- you or your leader have to make that bit up. And the Good Samaritan story didn't exactly elucidate the "neighbour" bit either. I don't suppose studying the original language will help much either, as the biblical scholars of England didn't exactly rise up hooting in derision when Thatcher came out with her egregious interpretation.

Or "Blessed are the poor". Most Christians seem to prefer Matthew's addition of "in spirit", because no one can see your spirit and so you can be blessed without actually being badly off. But even passing that, there isn't any guidance about what being "blessed" means. It could mean only the blessed go to heaven, or it could mean no more than a pat on the back. Again the interpretation is all, and it comes down to a question of whose interpretation- and why. Fundamentalists, of all religions, are ploitical.

No doubt Iona or their leaders have hermetically sealed arguments about this, but on examination these always turn out to be circular.

Subject: RE: BS: Young Earth Creationism Eureka!
From: GUEST,999
Date: 11 Feb 12 - 10:46 AM

I'm back. Took a little more than five minutes because the %$&^#@* papers I am reduced to using are ZigZags, and the first two tore. Well, I mean that the first two papers which would act as a single paper after I stapled them together--that's what caused the first two papers designed to act as one paper to tear in the first place. Well, it wasn't the first actual place on the paper that tore because it had already torn a bit from the ghzh-gukk of the scrunching mechanism of the stapler. Then I noticed that the manufacturer has put a kind of glue on the edge of the papers. So I licked them both and stuck the glued edges together. But when I rolled the dried foliage/banana peels there was no way to get the paper to adhere to itself, hence the staples. There has to be an easier way. Anyway, sorry about drifting off-topic.

So, in twenty-five words or fewer (I got a ruler on the knuckles for saying less instead of fewer in the commonly used 'in twenty-five words or less' locution and never did get over it completely) would some kind soul tell me what this thread is about? I've lost the plot somewhere along the way--OH, in the past week I have read the same four pages of a Robert Ludlum novel because my arm is outside the airspace of the bed, and when I fall asleep reading (which seems to be every time I read) the book falls from my hand, goes something like kwaTHUMMP splatwhen it hits the floor) and I have learned to sleep through that. Anyway, when I next get up I pick up the book and it pops open to the page I was on. It's done that for four nights. I hope it's an interesting read. I'm on pages 17-20.

Subject: RE: BS: Young Earth Creationism Eureka!
From: frogprince
Date: 11 Feb 12 - 11:06 AM

Bruce, Judy and I both hate you; we're both so %&*# weak from laughing that I don't know how we're going to finish packing to fly off to Jamaica in a couple of days!
                           Dean

Subject: RE: BS: Young Earth Creationism Eureka!
From: MGM·Lion
Date: 11 Feb 12 - 11:20 AM

One Iona thinks the Bible is true except where it isn't so Xtnty   the only faith that's right. A few silly people waste time arguing. [25 words precisely!]

Subject: RE: BS: Young Earth Creationism Eureka!
From: Bill D
Date: 11 Feb 12 - 01:11 PM

dangerouspost, Bruce! I was laughing louder than I have in years...and my wife came in to see why..and I made the mistake of reading it out loud to her ....and SHE laughed so hard she couldn't beathe properly, and had to retreat to the far room and recover....





(and where can I get some of that "dried foliage/banana peels"?) I won't use a stapler...but I have some industrial strength super-glue

Subject: RE: BS: Young Earth Creationism Eureka!
From: GUEST,999
Date: 11 Feb 12 - 01:41 PM

"I don't know how we're going to finish packing to fly off to Jamaica in a couple of days"

Ah, man, I bet they got papers with no staple holes in 'em.


'and where can I get some of that "dried foliage/banana peels"'

I can help with the banana peels. I'm presently in the process of packaging a few pints of peels which I'll put in the post.





I admit to taking the banana peel idea from a rumour that was floating around in the 1960s in Greenwich Village. What we never did tell anyone is that it works. Even though the price of bananas has skyrocketed--well, I never did see much use for bananas: skin 'em and throw away the bone and there's nothing left--it's less expensive than hooking up a vacuum cleaner to a bong and breathing the exhaust from the Hoover. But if the smoke I inhaled doesn't kick in soon I'll have to find a place that sells vacuum cleaners, bongs, bananas and papers--crud, and now Bic lighters. Why is it that they always run out of gas when they're empty?

Do any of you know of a specialty shop like that? I kinda need an answer soon because it's the only thing that will get my head back to this thread.

Subject: RE: BS: Young Earth Creationism Eureka!
From: Bill D
Date: 11 Feb 12 - 02:07 PM

.... you don't remember Morning Glory seeds? "Heavenly Blues & Pearly Gates"...that ought to get you back to this thread. Local shops ought stock 'em..

Subject: RE: BS: Young Earth Creationism Eureka!
From: Mrrzy
Date: 11 Feb 12 - 02:18 PM

LOL! enough banana peels and ANYbody can see gods!

Subject: RE: BS: Young Earth Creationism Eureka!
From: Don Firth
Date: 11 Feb 12 - 03:33 PM

Okay, so in the interest of full disclosure:   I posted some of this information before, but this gives a broader picture of where I'm coming from.

My family was not particularly religiously oriented. Which is to say, although we did go to church from time to time, we didn't go that often, and we didn't belong to any particular church. My father never said much about religion. My mother was a bit of a questioner and seeker, and she read a fair amount about Eastern religion and philosophy. Standard sermons bored her spitless. When I was about ten or so, I did attend a two week "summer Bible school" at a church a few blocks from where I lived. My sisters and I wanted to go mostly because a lot of other kids in the neighborhood were going, and getting us out of the house would give mom a few hours of peace and quiet. There, I learned to recite the Lord's Prayer and the 23rd Psalm and a few things like that. I believed in God (a vague sort of presence) about the same way I (a precocious ten-year-old) had previously believed in Santa Claus (somewhat more specific image, perhaps).

In my first freshman philosophy course at the University of Washington, among many other things, we examined the various philosophers' arguments for and against the existence of God, or a "Prime Mover." This turned me into a hard-charging atheist. In later years, I mellowed a bit when it finally sank in that there is an incredible amount about the Universe (or "Creation," if anyone insists) that we don't know and probably never will know. But I definitely didn't become a believer. Agnostic, perhaps, but not a believer.

I know quite a bit about the Bible. Early on, when I was an English major at the University of Washington, I had room for an English elective in my class schedule. As I said, I'm not particularly religious, but just for kicks, I signed up for "The Bible as Literature." The father of a girl I went to high school with was teaching the course.

Professor Paul Trueblood made it quite plain from the start that this was a course in the Bible as a work of literature—and we would not—repeat, not—be discussing it as a religious text. We read the Bible as if it were an anthology of short stories, novelettes, essays, and poetry. We didn't skip around, reading a verse here and a verse there, we read it in whole chunks, right through, the way you read any literary work.

There were a few people in the class who tried to initiate religious interpretations and discussions. When this happened, Prof. Trueblood gently but firmly steered the discussion back to the literary aspects of whatever we had just read.

Having taken this course made me something of a reef on which a number of proselytizing Christian soul-savers foundered. When they would quote a verse or two from the Bible in an effort to prove the point they were trying to make, I was well equipped to interrupt them and say, "But that's not what that verse means. You're taking it out of context." At which point, I would lecture them on what the passage was really saying.

I was dangerous! I knew too much about the Bible!

Interesting to note that a few months after I told one of my tormentors that I had taken the "Bible as Literature" course in the U. of W. English Department, the fundamentalist church he belonged to filed suit against the University in an attempt to get the course removed from the catalog, claiming that the University was "teaching religion." The state Supreme Court eventually ruled that Prof Paul Trueblood, and subsequently, Prof. David C. Fowler, had scrupulously avoided religious discussion in class and that it qualified as a straightforward literature course. The fundamentalist church lost, and the course listing stayed in the catalog.

Taking this course also set me in good stead for discussions with clergy of various denominations, and I've enjoyed a number of good, interesting discussions and debates with them.

Thirty years ago, I married a woman who had been raised in the Lutheran Church (one of the more liberal branches). She was, and is, involved in a number of church activities. So am I. Although she was raised in the church and has been involved with it one way or another all her life, it seems our beliefs are very much alike. And she and I find that we are not the only ones in our particular church who believe pretty much as we do. No one is dogmatic. And pretty much everyone is willing to question and discuss. I don't know anyone in the church who maintains that the Bible is the "inerrant Word of God." As Pastor Shannon said once, "The Bible is not The Boy Scout Manual. You're not necessarily going to find answers here. You're going to find questions!" She's cool!

Do I believe in God? Well, I certainly don't believe in the Cranky Old Man in the nightshirt and beard sitting up on Arturus 12 who hurls thunderbolts at sinners, marks the fall of every sparrow in His ledger book, and keeps a list of who's naughty and nice.

Do I "believe" in science? Yes. I've always been a science enthusiast, fascinated by all aspects of astronomy and cosmology, including the possibility, expounded by the latest speculations in String Theory, of parallel universes and multiple dimensions. Fascinating stuff! I believe the "theory" of evolution because it offers the most reasonable explanation for how we all got here, AND it backs it with evidence that one can examine for oneself. I am not in the least bit flummoxed when a scientist says, "I don't know." Or when a scientist says, "What we believed up until now is not quite accurate. In the light of new data. . . ." If scientists don't know, then who does!?? Certainly not someone (even if he or she does have a cable television show!) with no evidence except a book of mythological tales that attributes all phenomena to a SuperSpook beyond the clouds whose will he or she claims to know.

But do I eschew all possibility of there being a spiritual dimension to Life, the Universe, and Everything? No. There may very well be.

I find it perfectly acceptable to say, "I don't know."

Or, as Iris Dement puts it, "Let the Mystery Be."

How do I reconcile my agnosticism with attending a Christian church regularly? As far as I am concerned, Christianity is as Christianity does. And this particular church, because of its social programs, allows me to maximize my own efforts to follow the admonitions of Jesus in the verses in Matthew that I cited before. Whether Jesus is a Divine figure or just a wise and caring man in this context is irrelelvant to me.

Don Firth

Subject: RE: BS: Young Earth Creationism Eureka!
From: Paul Burke
Date: 11 Feb 12 - 03:36 PM

Over 590! Who's going to get 666 in this thread? Shall we leave it for Iona?

Subject: RE: BS: Young Earth Creationism Eureka!
From: Don Firth
Date: 11 Feb 12 - 03:59 PM

Yeah! Wouldn't that be a snort!??

Don Firth

Subject: RE: BS: Young Earth Creationism Eureka!
From: GUEST,TIA
Date: 11 Feb 12 - 04:07 PM

I absolutley pledge to NOT post past 665.

Take the pledge!

Subject: RE: BS: Young Earth Creationism Eureka!
From: GUEST,999
Date: 11 Feb 12 - 04:55 PM

I could do post 666 standing on my head!

Subject: RE: BS: Young Earth Creationism Eureka!
From: DMcG
Date: 11 Feb 12 - 05:47 PM

This thread is a stream of conciousness about fundamentalist christianity but I am mot convinced all posters are fully concious. [20 I think + I can't scroll easily on my phone to check]

Subject: RE: BS: Young Earth Creationism Eureka!
From: GUEST,TIA
Date: 11 Feb 12 - 06:08 PM

How long have you been waiting for the opportunity to trot that joke out?



Oaky, it was good.

Subject: RE: BS: Young Earth Creationism Eureka!
From: Bill D
Date: 11 Feb 12 - 06:12 PM

I don't think all posters are even fully conscientious.

Subject: RE: BS: Young Earth Creationism Eureka!
From: mayomick
Date: 11 Feb 12 - 06:15 PM

Evidence of evolution : development of our kidneys

http://whyevolutionistrue.wordpress.com/2012/02/08/evidence-for-evolution-development-of-our-kidneys/

And if that's not enough to convince you there's a flowchart for choosing your religion here :

http://nedhardy.com/2012/01/05/a-flowchart-for-choosing-your-religion/

Subject: RE: BS: Young Earth Creationism Eureka!
From: GUEST,pete from seven stars link
Date: 11 Feb 12 - 06:53 PM

dmcg
not sure if that waiting to hear petes view was mocking or not but as your posts are of the civil sort i take it as genuine.
this will be unacceptable to those who discount any divine authority [especially the more vocal mockers] but maybe yourself might see where i'm coming from at least.
it is quite true that under OT law the penalty for adultery was stoning.there were other crimes that carried the death penalty also.the man executed for gathering sticks on the sabbath is a favourite of skeptics.this man was defying the clear instructions of God 'and moses carried out the sentence only after devine direction.
the same principle applies in adultery cases,as well as being detrimental to family life[as it still is]and breakdown of society.
israel was under theocratic rule and this was a benefit to the nation meant to safeguard them .
we do not live under direct theocratic rule at this time and though civil law is God ordained [cf romans 13]it is falliable.
in addition to this the dealings of God with man is different in NT times onward.johns gospel spoke of law with moses but grace with Jesus.it also contains the story of the woman taken in adultery who jesus did not condemn after all the shamed hypocrites dropped their rocks .
opinion on capital punishment for murder is divided.some say that since this was instituted before the mosaic law;it still applies.
while i repect this view,i think it not so clear cut and there have been too many mistakes in law.
a great example of grace would be the apostle paul who was involved in the murder of stephen and probably others yet was transformed into a christian missionary.

Subject: RE: BS: Young Earth Creationism Eureka!
From: MGM·Lion
Date: 11 Feb 12 - 11:57 PM

Into this stupid thread rode the

600