BS: Learner drivers allowed on UK motorways?

Subject: RE: BS: Learner drivers allowed on UK motorways?
From: Bernard
Date: 25 Feb 12 - 03:48 PM

Oh, and it's a moving traffic offence not to drive on dipped headlights when it's raining... surprising how many people don't know that - and so is driving with foglights when there's no fog...

Subject: RE: BS: Learner drivers allowed on UK motorways?
From: GUEST
Date: 25 Feb 12 - 07:34 PM

It's a bit hard to follow the two-chevron rule when 99.9% of motorways (I stand to have my statistics corrected) are not marked with chevrons.

We all want to be out there on the roads without restriction in spite of the sheer inability of the roads to cope, at times, with the volume of traffic. It is actually economically important to the nation to keep the roads a-flowing. So let's look at the categories of vehicles that move slowly, hinder the flow and which do not really contribute to the greater good of the UK economy. Agricultural vehicles on trunk roads (no doubt illegally using red diesel in many cases): ban 'em. Same with bloody horse boxes. It's cruelty to animals, no more, no less. Caravan pullers: make the buggers travel during the night only (and tax the hell out of any of 'em who park their ugly monstrosities outside their houses for all to see). And why should caravans not be liable to road tax? That's just outrageous. Dammit all, these eejits don't even have to insure the bloody things if they don't want to! Oldies: retest 'em at frequent intervals. Well, everybody, really. Hows about a pretty expensive five-yearly test to make sure that you are still competent, have improved your skills and are acutely aware of the presence of other road-users and know how to treat them with due consideration?

Subject: RE: BS: Learner drivers allowed on UK motorways?
From: GUEST
Date: 25 Feb 12 - 07:37 PM

That guest is me, Steve Shaw, on the wrong computer. Let us cope...

Subject: RE: BS: Learner drivers allowed on UK motorways?
From: Doug Chadwick
Date: 26 Feb 12 - 03:47 AM

It's a bit hard to follow the two-chevron rule ....

I was in a Daewoo Matiz when we saw a road sign giving the instruction to stay two chevrons apart. Had a hell of time trying to keep up with a Ferrari.

DC

Subject: RE: BS: Learner drivers allowed on UK motorways?
From: Dave MacKenzie
Date: 26 Feb 12 - 05:11 AM

"It's a bit hard to follow the two-chevron rule"

No problem, if you're driving sensibly anyway. Which reminds me. I was driving back from Widnes a few Sundays ago, and it was a bit foggy. The visibilty crossing the Mersey was down to a few hundred yards each way. Then I joined the M56 at Frodsham and the visibilty dropped, so that slowing to less than 60, I knew I was far enough behind the vehicle in front if I could just see the lights through the fog. The worrying thing of course was all the cars, mainly grey, flying past with no lights! Talking about being in a hurry to get to your own funeral!

Subject: RE: BS: Learner drivers allowed on UK motorways?
From: Richard Bridge
Date: 26 Feb 12 - 06:08 AM

Steve, if you can't find a cookie when you need one, I am inclined to doubt your other technical know-how.

Subject: RE: BS: Learner drivers allowed on UK motorways?
From: Bernard
Date: 26 Feb 12 - 06:17 AM

I was driving in thick fog the other week, and I could barely make out some flashing lights on the overhead gantry... as I got nearer, I could just make out the word 'Fog'... good job, otherwise I wouldn't have realised why I couldn't see!!

Subject: RE: BS: Learner drivers allowed on UK motorways?
From: GUEST,PeterC
Date: 26 Feb 12 - 11:30 AM

This thread makes uk.rec.driving look polite!

Subject: RE: BS: Learner drivers allowed on UK motorways?
From: GUEST,Eliza
Date: 26 Feb 12 - 02:46 PM

One of the best guides as to which drivers are the worst is the insurance industry. As I understand it, the more costly your insurance, the more dangerous you're likely to be. On this basis, young men up to the age of about 25 are the most dodgy, and old ladies like me quite safe in comparison. My insurance is so low, they almost pay me to drive my little Fiesta. This is only a general, rough guide, as obviously some high insurances are due to the expensive and powerful vehicles driven. My point is, that the young lads are the ones who should have a watchful eye kept on them, and maybe a second test/assessment made after one year, say. Statistically, us oldies don't cause the most accidents.

Subject: RE: BS: Learner drivers allowed on UK motorways?
From: The Sandman
Date: 26 Feb 12 - 03:23 PM

god points Eliza, it is good to see someone making a statement that is backed up stats. unlike some of the other people on this thread

Subject: RE: BS: Learner drivers allowed on UK motorways?
From: Steve Shaw
Date: 26 Feb 12 - 04:56 PM

Well, Richard, I admit to being a technical numptie though I don't see what that has to do with this thread (are you a bitter caravan lugger?) Anyway, I'm still on the wrong computer but I fully expect my name to be appended to this post.


And Dick, where were your statistics apropos of those newly-qualified drivers driving at 50 on the inside lane between two junctions not causing accidents?

Eliza, while I take your point about oldies being statistically safer, there is the issue of older, slower and nervous drivers causing frustration among those who (foolishly, maybe, but they are obstinately there) need to get a move on. The idea of occasional retesting for all would be to ensure that everyone is competent and confident on ever-changing and increasingly-challenging roads - more and more crowded, more complicated junctions, more motorway-type bypass roads with very frequent requirements to adjust speeds and get in the right lanes in good time at high speed, etc. There are still people on the roads today who never had to negotiate roundabouts on their driving tests or during their driving tuition, and many more still who never had to negotiate mini-roundabouts, for example.

Subject: RE: BS: Learner drivers allowed on UK motorways?
From: Bernard
Date: 26 Feb 12 - 06:05 PM

Talking of mini-roundabouts, I witnessed a young driver a few weeks ago who saw fit to overtake a line of traffic, go the wrong way round a mini-roundabout AND pass the traffic island beyond on the wrong side whilst doing at least 40mph in a 30mph zone...

He was very lucky nobody was coming the other way, or out of the blind junction to the right.

This is by no means an isolated incident, albeit probably the worst example - people seem to think mini-roundabouts are there to be ignored!

Subject: RE: BS: Learner drivers allowed on UK motorways?
From: Richard Bridge
Date: 26 Feb 12 - 08:31 PM

Wow Bernard! At LEAST 40? Are you sure he wasn't a neutrino on the way to Italy? You sound like the commentators on some of the UK police driver programmes, waxing apoplectic about remarkably skilful driving of some fleeing miscreant. Some of the pursued are twerps, but sometimes you see some bloke who you think might have been another Lewis Hamilton with the right chance - and the commentators don't seem to be able to tell the difference.

Steve - I've been a petrol head since a while before the first TVR Tuscan V8SE was the king of the UK roads, driving (on private land) since I was 13. I know within inches how fast any of my 3 much loved Volvos is - with or without the van on.

Subject: RE: BS: Learner drivers allowed on UK motorways?
From: Don(Wyziwyg)T
Date: 26 Feb 12 - 09:01 PM

""Eliza, while I take your point about oldies being statistically safer, there is the issue of older, slower and nervous drivers causing frustration among those who (foolishly, maybe, but they are obstinately there) need to get a move on.""

I would be rather more inclined to suggest that re-testing is indicated for those drivers who are so arrogant and self obsessed that if the rest of the world doesn't leap aside at their approach, they proceed to do something incredibly stupid and dangerous, and when it all goes pear shaped they blame the driver who was driving safely.

Recognise anyone in that description Steve?

Take that attitude into an Institute of Advanced Motoring course, and you are guaranteed to fail.

Don T.

Subject: RE: BS: Learner drivers allowed on UK motorways?
From: Richard Bridge
Date: 27 Feb 12 - 03:13 AM

A driver who is impeding others, and who can avoid that effect without impeding himself or increasing the risk to himself, should avoid that effect.

On the other hand, I had a discussion the other day with another driver who objected to the fact that I left space behind a driver in front of me who was in a queue of traffic doing 20. Mr Pushy, hand on horn, as soon as there were two lanes (I was then in the right hand lane waiting my turn to go past a dustcart in the left) approaching Rochester Bridge Eastwards, pinged past on my inside, went past the rest of the queue, swung right behind the dustcart forcing a white Seat to brake, then went past three more on the inside, and back to the middle lane at the lights at the foot of Star Hill. As I pulled up alongside him for the right turn into Victoria Street he started shouting out of his window, but I reminded him of a discussion I had had when younger with a policeman in Maidstone.

I had been pushing up behind other traffic on the Loose Road, years and years ago, and had been bobbing in and out when other traffic stopped or wanted to turn right etc, and PC Plod flagged me. I told him then that I had just been trying to avoid impeding traffic - and he explained that I had put in a lot of work but passed the traffic lights where the Sutton Road leaves the Loose Road at exactly the same time. Just as Mr Pushy had done in Rochester.

Puzzled, Mr Pushy looked. But the proof was alongside him at the lights.

Subject: RE: BS: Learner drivers allowed on UK motorways?
From: GUEST
Date: 27 Feb 12 - 07:51 AM

This morning I was praised by a policeman /garda on my sensible driving, on the N71 to SKIBBEREEN.
yesterday there was a serious accident caused by speeding and tailgating, so the gards were out in force observing peoples driving skills/speeds. Irepeat I WAS PRAISED FOR MY SENSIBLE DRIVING. PUT THAT IN YOUR PIE AND SMOKE IT ALL YOU TOADS OF TOAD HALLS ON THIS THREAD.
Guest. DICK MILES

Subject: RE: BS: Learner drivers allowed on UK motorways?
From: Silas
Date: 27 Feb 12 - 07:59 AM

So, you were stopped by the police just to be told that you were driving well?

Amazing.

Personally, I would prefer the police to use their time stopping peoople who wern't driving well.

Subject: RE: BS: Learner drivers allowed on UK motorways?
From: Silas
Date: 27 Feb 12 - 08:26 AM

I think it is about time people realised that motorways are there for commerce, not pleasure seekers, just how some morons think they know all there is to know about motorway driving when they probably do less that 3000 miles a year on the motorways, yet a driver who spends the majority of his working life using them, and using them properly...

Well, we have all seen you dick, sitting in the middle or outside lane at exactly 70mph gripping the steering wheel till your knuckles go white and staring fixatedly on the vehicle in front, not even condsidering what the vehicle in front of the vehicle in front is doing.

Subject: RE: BS: Learner drivers allowed on UK motorways?
From: gnomad
Date: 27 Feb 12 - 09:12 AM

If the obtuseness, aggression and sheer bad manners of a number of those posting to this thread is repeated in their driving (as seems to me highly likely) then I, for one, have no desire to meet them on the road (and probably not elsewhere either).

Being civilised entails obeying the agreed laws, including the ones with which you disagree. Any person has the right to assume that others will observe the rules. He would be spectacularly dumb to rely on it, of course, but has the right to protection from those who feel that they are above the law.

BTW, the motorways are there for commerce, and also for any other legitimate use, including pleasure however improbable that may be.

Subject: RE: BS: Learner drivers allowed on UK motorways?
From: GUEST
Date: 27 Feb 12 - 10:21 AM

silas you are a fool , you have never seen me drive,
no the police had a section of the road blocked off, there was a BAD ACCIDENT YESTERDAY CAUSED BY SOMEONE WHO WAS DRIVING TOO FAST. THE POLICEMAN COMPLIMENTED ME ON MY DRIVING , THEY WERE CLEARLY TRYING TO STOP PEOPLE BREAKING THE SPEED LIMIT.
It is called garda traffic control

Subject: RE: BS: Learner drivers allowed on UK motorways?
From: GUEST,guest dick miles
Date: 27 Feb 12 - 10:22 AM

the above post was me

Subject: RE: BS: Learner drivers allowed on UK motorways?
From: Steve Shaw
Date: 27 Feb 12 - 06:02 PM

The fact is, Don, whether we like it or not, the fast, the impatient, the arrogant and the tailgaters exist in large numbers and they are not going away any time soon. Great to get all hoity-toity about 'em, but that will change nothing. Best if everyone on the road is confident and aware, and "aware" means aware of other road users, good or bad, and let 'em get on with it, no indignant stands required. Retesting for all, says I! Taking a caravan (untaxed and often uninsured, and definitely gas-guzzling) on to crowded roads for fun is showing arrogant disregard for other road users, akin to taking a king-sized, double-length articulated trolley into Morrisons on a Saturday afternoon. Travel by night and do us all a favour. While you're at it, tell us how you camouflage the damn thing while it's standing outside your house! By the way, while I don't regard my own driving highly, I am an extremely careful motorway driver. I always keep my distance and I use the innermost practical lane, according to conditions, at all times, and I virtually over-use my mirrors. Of course, you don't have to believe any of that. Too bad. Just done 600 motorway miles over the weekend. I have advice: do not use the bloody M6 on Fridays! Couldn't avoid it this time...

Subject: RE: BS: Learner drivers allowed on UK motorways?
From: Steve Shaw
Date: 27 Feb 12 - 07:15 PM

Dick, as much as I'd like to let everything you ever say on any topic go, preferably as far away as possible, this time I can't resist. Do apprise us of the actual words of this complimenting traffic constable. Was it your classically-correct grip of the wheel or your nifty gear-changing? Did he praise your efforts in spite of the obvious distraction of your furry dice? Was it your skilful and deft way with the windscreen wiper knob? Educate me, Dick, educate me!

By the way, I note that this heap of praise was visited on you just the day after the terrible accident, and even so soon after the event you knew exactly what the cause was. Did the gushing civic guard share that information with you, or are you a member of the accident investigation squad, or are you, er, just sayin' it, like?

Subject: RE: BS: Learner drivers allowed on UK motorways?
From: Steve Shaw
Date: 27 Feb 12 - 07:22 PM

I would be rather more inclined to suggest that re-testing is indicated for those drivers who are so arrogant and self obsessed that if the rest of the world doesn't leap aside at their approach, they proceed to do something incredibly stupid and dangerous, and when it all goes pear shaped they blame the driver who was driving safely.

Recognise anyone in that description Steve?

No.

Subject: RE: BS: Learner drivers allowed on UK motorways?
From: GUEST,Guest Mad Driver
Date: 27 Feb 12 - 07:43 PM

Sounds like you, Steve.

Subject: RE: BS: Learner drivers allowed on UK motorways?
From: Steve Shaw
Date: 27 Feb 12 - 07:54 PM

Just because someone disagrees with my intemperate views about brain-dead caravan owners and over-timid drivers who have never really improved their skills over the years it doesn't make me a road-raging, tailgating, overgrown boy-racer when I'm behind the wheel, thank you very much! Tsk! Stop being silly! You're beginning to sound like that Don!

Subject: RE: BS: Learner drivers allowed on UK motorways?
From: Richard Bridge
Date: 27 Feb 12 - 11:10 PM

Why Steve, do you assert that most caravans are uninsured? Most car insurance policies cover damage to third parties caused by caravans or trailers towed by the insured car. You appear to know little about cars, and little about traffic law.

Subject: RE: BS: Learner drivers allowed on UK motorways?
From: Steve Shaw
Date: 28 Feb 12 - 05:11 AM

I didn't say "most caravans were uninsured," did I? I said "often!" Canst thou read the queer old dean's English ou pas? I know it isn't illegal to not insure a caravan separately. I always pray that those I see on their sides are uninsured. And even if I'd got this snippet wrong, which I haven't, pray tell how that would have demonstrated thst I "know little about cars." No need to go off half-cock just because I happen to immoderately think that most caravan owners are arrogant, selfish, antisocial sods who don't give a toss either about other road users or the environment!

Subject: RE: BS: Learner drivers allowed on UK motorways?
From: Silas
Date: 28 Feb 12 - 05:45 AM

Well, as it appens I am also a caravanner. I also agree that some caravanners are selfish and I also get annoyed when they travel in convoy. However, as far as ecology goes, look at it this way – as I pootle along at my 50 mph or so with a line of traffic behind me unable to overtake, and nowhere for me to pull in to allow them to pass, I can take some comfort from the fact that although I may be using a little more fuel than normal, the fact the drivers behind me are forced to do 50mph instead of 60 or 70, they are saving fuel, so there is a net gain for the planet.

Isn't that great?

Subject: RE: BS: Learner drivers allowed on UK motorways?
From: Steve Shaw
Date: 28 Feb 12 - 05:51 AM

Nice one, Silas. But think of all that steam coming out of the windows of the cars behind you adding to global warming. As Dick seems to categorise you and me together, perhaps we should close ranks. I'll begin by saying that you, as a caravanner, are almost certainly the exception that proves the rule. ;-)

Subject: RE: BS: Learner drivers allowed on UK motorways?
From: Penny S.
Date: 28 Feb 12 - 06:14 AM

Reading through all this stuff has reminded me of a particular bit of bad driving related to the middle lane owners club which seems to have escaped notice. On a number of occasions on three lane motorways, not much traffic, I, driving appropriately in the inside lane, have come up towards a much slower vehicle. On attempting to move out, after signalling, to overtake, I find the middle lane to be occupied by another car, doing slightly more than the limit, which forces me to slow down while he goes past. And the outer lane is completely empty as far as the mirror can see.

I assume the driver is not reading the road at all.

Penny

Subject: RE: BS: Learner drivers allowed on UK motorways?
From: Penny S.
Date: 28 Feb 12 - 06:16 AM

And I should add, I have been using the mirror, and have usually thought the car concerned to be far enough behind, and aware enough to allow me out, which is what I would have done in the circumstances.

Subject: RE: BS: Learner drivers allowed on UK motorways?
From: Don(Wyziwyg)T
Date: 28 Feb 12 - 08:32 PM

""The fact is, Don, whether we like it or not, the fast, the impatient, the arrogant and the tailgaters exist in large numbers and they are not going away any time soon.""

Quite true, and while every word you post indicates your assured place among their number, it ill behooves you to be dishing out lectures to others more sensible and tolerant than you are capable of being.

My caravan, for what it's worth, is stored off road as is Richard's and Brian's as far as I know. and by what God given right do you presume to tell any of us that we don't have the right to use the roads in any legal manner we see fit?

I have held a full motor cycle licence since 1959, a full car licence since 1961, and an Institute of Advanced Motoring Certification since 1965. I also held a full double decker Public Service Vehicle licence between 1976 and 1983 and a Dartford Hackney Carriage Licence between 1983 and 1992.

I have no convictions of any description during my driving career, and only two accidents (one when an uninsured driver ran into me as I stopped for traffic on a roundabout, and the other when I was parked in a marked parking bay). Come to think of it, either might have been you, or some other arrogant sod with an almighty ego and a sense of entitlement to match.

My mileage since my motorcyle test is well in excess of two million. Enough! I'm done with you so kindly go screw yourself.

Don T.

Subject: RE: BS: Learner drivers allowed on UK motorways?
From: Steve Shaw
Date: 29 Feb 12 - 05:27 AM

It's amusing to read that, because I disapprove of caravans, I must be an impatient, arrogant, intolerant, tailgating, road-raging boy racer. Now I know how Richard Dawkins must feel. And nowhere have I suggested that you don't have the right to use the roads in any legal manner you see fit. I'm just moaning about your right, that's all.

Subject: RE: BS: Learner drivers allowed on UK motorways?
From: Bernard
Date: 29 Feb 12 - 06:54 AM

Dearie me! So many raw nerves!!

...and relax!

Subject: RE: BS: Learner drivers allowed on UK motorways?
From: Steve Shaw
Date: 29 Feb 12 - 08:42 AM

Yeah, ironic in a way that those who ostensibly advocate a calmer approach to driving - Mad Driver, Dick and Don - are exactly the guys who now appear to be exhibiting a form of cyber-road rage! :-)

Subject: RE: BS: Learner drivers allowed on UK motorways?
From: Don(Wyziwyg)T
Date: 29 Feb 12 - 10:22 AM

""Mad Driver, Dick and Don - are exactly the guys who now appear to be exhibiting a form of cyber-road rage! :-)""

The difference is, in case you need it explained, that we confine our irritation at the ignorant mumblings of an arrogant twerp to a time and a place when we are not behind the wheel of a potentially lethal weapon.

Hardly road rage then.

Don T.

Subject: RE: BS: Learner drivers allowed on UK motorways?
From: Silas
Date: 29 Feb 12 - 10:39 AM

Come off it Don, you ave said some pretty stupid things on this thread and if ou poke your head over the parapet, then you can expect people to shoot at it.

Subject: RE: BS: Learner drivers allowed on UK motorways?
From: Don(Wyziwyg)T
Date: 29 Feb 12 - 10:52 AM

""Come off it Don, you ave said some pretty stupid things on this thread""

Put your money where you mouth is and point 'em out, along with your reasons for considering them stupid.

Otherwise butt out.

Don T.

Subject: RE: BS: Learner drivers allowed on UK motorways?
From: Silas
Date: 29 Feb 12 - 11:04 AM

Oh cone ON, be reasonable, I don'thave time to list 'em ALL! But most of your posts have a daft line or two in them if you have a look.

Subject: RE: BS: Learner drivers allowed on UK motorways?
From: Don(Wyziwyg)T
Date: 29 Feb 12 - 11:10 AM

I thought so!

Just twelve posts to sort through, and it's not worth the effort. Oh well, it's your ball in your court and if you can't be arsed to run with it........

Fine by me, until you post proof your assertions are also worthless.

Don T.

Subject: RE: BS: Learner drivers allowed on UK motorways?
From: Silas
Date: 29 Feb 12 - 11:29 AM

OK Don, here you go.


"However, that jacket hanging across a window and effectively tripling the rearward blind spot has been almost a trademark of the breed for over 40 years. It's done so that they meet prospective clients with their jacket in pristine, uncreased condition. Image is everything you know, even coming ahead of safety. There are of course other distinguishing marks such as the models of car they have gravitated to over the years."

I thing generalising about a particular trade or profession like this is a bit daft. I am sure there are reps that drive irresponsibly, but there will be plenty of people in other professions who do too. And not everyone driving a Vectra or Mondeo is a rep you know, some of my best friends drive these type of cars and they are not reps.


"The course would be with an ADI registered instructor who would have to sign off on a satisfactory result, and would include 2 hours motorway instruction, two hours night driving, and two hours on a skid pan learning proper car handling."

Well, totally impractical and unworkable. Not a bad idea in principle, but cannot possibly work

"the unchallenged champions of disgracefully bad driving are the sales reps who consider their work to be more important than the lives of those who share their driving environment."

Again – irrational prejudice against sales reps who, after all, are just doing their job and are amongst the most experienced of road users.

Now, if it were BMW drivers that you were having a pop at…..

Subject: RE: BS: Learner drivers allowed on UK motorways?
From: Steve Shaw
Date: 29 Feb 12 - 12:13 PM

What about BMWs towing caravans... :-)

Subject: RE: BS: Learner drivers allowed on UK motorways?
From: The Sandman
Date: 29 Feb 12 - 01:13 PM

just because a driver is experienced that does not mean he/she is a safe driver,sales reps may be experienced, that does not mean they do not take silly risks.you are quite right about generalising, that is why we must not generalise from one particular incident, which is what Bernrd Cromarty was doing.
the whole thread is a waste of time and merely shows how entrenched peoples opinions are, however execessive speed and tailgating and changing lanes without indicating and checking mirrors are all very dangerous habits that are not the sole prequisite of newly passed drivers on motorways.
in my experience it is not the newly passed drivers that cause most of the accidents on motorways, I can only talk from my own experience.

Subject: RE: BS: Learner drivers allowed on UK motorways?
From: Steve Shaw
Date: 29 Feb 12 - 03:13 PM

So, Dick, how come those insurance companies charge newly-passed drivers (especially young 'uns, who constitute the majority of newly-passed drivers) upward of two grand for cover, whereas they only charge irresponsible, tailgating, road-raging, arrogant, BMW-hating, Volvo estate-hating, 4x4-hating, caravan-hating speed kings like me* about two hundred and fifty? Eh? Eh?? Might I suggest that they do it because of what they know "in their experience"?



*With my clean licence and full no claims bonus, of course... Gosh, how do I get away with it!

Subject: RE: BS: Learner drivers allowed on UK motorways?
From: Richard Bridge
Date: 29 Feb 12 - 05:12 PM

"Taking a caravan (untaxed and often uninsured, and definitely gas-guzzling)"

Get out of that Steve: You can't can you?

Subject: RE: BS: Learner drivers allowed on UK motorways?
From: Steve Shaw
Date: 29 Feb 12 - 05:52 PM

But it's true! No road tax for caravans! No need for separate insurance for caravans, and many owners just don't bother! Unless you have a miracle vehicle, your car uses far more gas pulling the damn thing than when it isn't pulling it! It's physics, man!! What exactly am I supposed to "get out of?"

Subject: RE: BS: Learner drivers allowed on UK motorways?
From: The Sandman
Date: 29 Feb 12 - 07:17 PM

Steve, INSURANCE COMPANIES charge on the basis of age, their charges are not based on driving abilty, they charge people up to the age of 25, higher premiums, so you can be driving six years if you passed your test when you were 18 and are 24, and pay the same as someone aged 24 who passed their test 2 days previously, your argument is nonsense, it has nothing to do with people who have just passed their test it is to do with age., admittedly people of all ages get no claim bonus based on not having an accident, but all young people pay high premiums regardless.

Subject: RE: BS: Learner drivers allowed on UK motorways?
From: Steve Shaw
Date: 29 Feb 12 - 07:20 PM

Look into it more, Dick. Nothing I said about insurance was inaccurate. Sit back and try to be dispassionate, Dick, ol' bean.

Subject: RE: BS: Learner drivers allowed on UK motorways?
From: Richard Bridge
Date: 01 Mar 12 - 12:52 AM

Your statement, Steve, that caravans were uninsured was untrue. Save for the very few uninsured drivers (where the industry scheme usually kicks in), and the also few twerps who don't understand the rare limitation on cover for towing, if you are hit by a caravan on the road you are covered by the driver's insurance.

And since even keen caravanners cover only a tiny fraction of their annual mileage while towing, your argument about increased fuel consumption is an irrelevance.

Likewise your argument about road tax for caravans.

You really have no figleaf for your pathological obsession against anything that might trivially delay your poop-poop-progress.