BS: Learner drivers allowed on UK motorways?

Subject: RE: BS: Learner drivers allowed on UK motorways?
From: The Sandman
Date: 22 Feb 12 - 07:46 AM

what complete nonsense,
the legal limit for hgv drivers is 60 mph, most lorries are fitted with tachos preventing them going faster than 56 mph, there is a reason for this the faster you travel the further is the braking distance required to avoid a collision.
no one can provide statistics to prove that most accidents are caused by motorway motorists who have just passed their tests, statistics exist that show that accidents are caused by people driving too fast and not allowing correct braking distances, some motorways have chevrons that are there to guide motorists for braking distance.
people like silas and steve shaw ,appear to be clueless about motorway driving, what constitutes dangerous driving? here: attention Shaw and Silas.get realyourselves    About
   

Dangerous Driving Conditions - Motorways

Driving on the UK's roads can be a dangerous practice at the best of times but add in the high speed of driving on the motorway and you have a recipe for disaster. So what can we do on the UK's motorways to reduce our risk of accident, injury and an increase in car insurance premiums?

Lane choice - correct lane choice can affect yours and other road user's safety on the motorway. Be aware not to sit in the middle or the outside lanes on the motorway. These lanes are there specifically for overtaking. Once you have overtaken you should move across into the inside lane, this will allow smooth movement of traffic along the motorway and reduce congestion. Incorrect lane choice and/or excessive lane changing can cause congestion and panic breaking on the motorway that can lead to accident and therefore an increase in car insurance premiums.

Speed - Excessive speed is probably the biggest cause of accident on the UK's motorways. The speed limit on the motorway is 70mph but the majority of motorists slightly exceed this with a few motorists exceeding this speed dramatically. By driving at an increased speed on the motorway it reduces your reaction time to any problems that may develop in front of you. This causes panic breaking on the motorway which can lead to nasty multiple car accidents, which can not only end up in many car insurance claims but also severe injury or even death.

Alertness - Another major cause of accidents on the motorway is driving whilst tired. Everyone has heard the saying 'tiredness can kill' and the fact is that it does on the UK roads every year. Driving on the motorway is very monotonous and this can reduce a driver's awareness very quickly. This reduction in awareness can lead to failure to react to an incident or loss of control resulting in accident or even death. To make sure that you stay aware of everything that is happening around you on the motorway take regular 15 minute breaks.

Awareness - Your general awareness on the motorway can be the difference between being involved in an accident and getting home safely. By being aware of what is happening in front and behind you it is easy to spot potential problems before they occur allowing you to react in the appropriate manner to keep yourself out of danger. Awareness of other road users can save you a lot of hassle, it someone is tailgating you pull over and allow them to pass rather than speeding up, they may not care about their NCB and car insurance premium but you do.

If everyone followed these few pointers then travelling on the motorway would be a lot safer and quicker. Unfortunately there are the motorists amongst us that feel the need to stop and stare at accidents, break the speed limits and tailgate other drivers. It is these drivers that you should be aware of most during your journey as it is these drivers that will no doubt be the cause of accidents that happen every day on the motorways pushing up car insurance premiums for all of us.

Subject: RE: BS: Learner drivers allowed on UK motorways?
From: Don(Wyziwyg)T
Date: 22 Feb 12 - 07:48 AM

""Well you can't legislate for every circumstance, such as cars pulling trailers up long hills, those b*ast*ard caravans""

There's that egregious crap about caravans again, from somebody who hasn't noticed that it isn't 1950 any more, and there aren't any ten horsepower cars either.

My Rover will comfortably pull my van uphill and down at a steady sixty on any motorway in the country, and so will any modern car over 1600cc.

We are to be found on the left and middle lane of motorways, which always leaves one lane free for the speed maniac sales rep to use.

Even on country lanes UI don't reckon to hold anyone up, usually driving at my legal limit of fifty and handling corners very much better than the a***hole in cars I constantly meet, coming round bends with two wheels on my side of the road.

Don T.

Subject: RE: BS: Learner drivers allowed on UK motorways?
From: Steve Shaw
Date: 22 Feb 12 - 08:01 AM

Well, Dick lets off full steam again but none of his points seem connected to what I said. As for clueless, the vast bulk of my mileage is done on motorways and, so far, it's been incident-free (and I'm no spring chicken). Well I did get done once for doing 60 in one of those 50 mph average-speed doodahs in their early days, but I did enjoy the speed awareness course... :-) And Don, my aversion to caravans probably arises from the fact that I live just off the A39, not known hereabouts for its long straight bits. We have lovely camp-sites, cottages, B&Bs and hotels round here and you can actually buy food and booze here as well!

Subject: RE: BS: Learner drivers allowed on UK motorways?
From: Silas
Date: 22 Feb 12 - 08:51 AM

Well, although, up to quite recently, I was doing seventy thousand miles per year, mainly on motorways (without incident of any kind I might add), I obviously bow you your vast experience of your 50mph dashes from one junction to the next (no doubt stopping somewhere on the hard shoulder for a picnic on your way.)

Now, let me tell you something about motorways. Most motorway drivers are actually working, that is, driving for a living. We know how to use a motorway properly. Tacographs do not restrict the speed of HGV's, they merely record the movements speed etc. 50mph or 56mph? Well, it may not make much difference to you, but to an HGV driver it is of real consequence, it could make the difference of getting his load delivered or not. Six hour at six miles per hour is thirty six miles! It takes an HGV a relatively long time and much fuel to accelerate from 50 to 56 mph. Some twat driving in the inside lane at 50mph means that he has to either slow down or overtake. This obviously results in the middle lane being chocked with HGV's – not a particularly good thing for road safety, and all because some self-important twat who does not know how to drive properly think he will show the world how to do it.

Motorway speeds, although astronomic to people who are used to their Sunday drive around the parish in their Austin Ruby, are quite safe. The relative speed between vehicles is quite slow as they are all travelling in the same direction, and even if the driver in front has to brake, providing you have left a sensible distance between yourself and the driver in front there is plenty of braking time because you are not approaching a stationary object,   the car in front is moving forward whilst slowing down. The biggest problem is lack of awareness of a road blockage ahead, or drivers 'undertaking'.

And, for your information, there are plenty of countries that operate a motorway minimum speed.

Subject: RE: BS: Learner drivers allowed on UK motorways?
From: Don(Wyziwyg)T
Date: 22 Feb 12 - 09:24 AM

""We have lovely camp-sites, cottages, B&Bs and hotels round here and you can actually buy food and booze here as well!""

And that is relevant because...........?

Steve, every post from you displays an arrogant belief in your absolute right to travel wherever you wish unimpeded by other road users.

Road users who have paid the same Road fund licence (or even more, depending on the vehicle) as you, the same fuel tax as you, hold the same licence to drive as you and have the same right to use the roads whenever and wherever they choose.

So just what is it that you feel is so special about you and your needs that it renders you more worthy of consideration than the rest of the community.

A speed limit does exactly what it says on the can. It is not an instruction to drive at the posted speed, but rather an instruction not to exceed it, so if the guy in front is doing ten mph below the limit, he is perfectly entitled so to do and you'll just have to either learn some patience, or fume and fret youself into an early grave. Get over it!

Don T.

Subject: RE: BS: Learner drivers allowed on UK motorways?
From: The Sandman
Date: 22 Feb 12 - 10:12 AM

more rubbish from steve and silas, dangerous driving is breaking speed limits on motorways and tailgating and driving too close to other vehicles, it is not a new driver[who is not a twat], we were all new drivers once, or a newly passed driver with an instructor, driving within the speed limit on the inside lane, Iam no interested in loory drivers who put profit before human life, that is not an excuse for breaking the speed limit and possibly killing someone
50 mph is a sensible speed for a newly passed driver on an inside lane, because they are unfamiliar with motorways, i was not suggesting 40 or 30 .
There is only one piece of evidence on this thread that accidents on motorways are caused by newly passed drivers, AND NONE OF THE OTHER CONTRIBUTORS to this thread have said that they have had an accident with a newly passed driver.

Subject: RE: BS: Learner drivers allowed on UK motorways?
From: Silas
Date: 22 Feb 12 - 10:25 AM

GSS - you are an idiot.

Subject: RE: BS: Learner drivers allowed on UK motorways?
From: Dave MacKenzie
Date: 22 Feb 12 - 11:17 AM

There is a tradition in Cheshire that newly passed learners go out to Delamere Forest, and wrap their cars around one of the trees (usually fatally) to celebrate. Makes the M56 a lot safer. The only near miss I've had recently was coming North on the M6 when passing a 3.5 tonner with Hungarian plates just before Junction 15. As we were alongside him, he started to dift over, and all 3 lanes were occupied. I reckon his choice of vehicle was dictated by the fact that he didn't need a tacho, and had probably driven non-stop from Budapest, with predictable results!

Subject: RE: BS: Learner drivers allowed on UK motorways?
From: Silas
Date: 22 Feb 12 - 12:35 PM

Speed is not in itself dangerous. Dangerous driving is when your driving puts yourself or other road users in danger.

I completely fail to see just what a learner driver will gain from travelling at 50mph in the inside lane of a motorway, apart from a pair of brown underpants. He will certainly not get any motorway driving experience and he could very well be endangering the lives of other road users.

His driving will enforce a speed limit on the inside lane of 50mph, a speed limit of 56 mph in the middle lane and massive congestion on the outside lane. Well done – what a bloody good idea! And what a massive step forward in road safety!

It is sheer idiocy like this that will cause major accidents – so just think a little before spouting such nonsense.

Subject: RE: BS: Learner drivers allowed on UK motorways?
From: Penny S.
Date: 22 Feb 12 - 01:20 PM

The worst stuff I see on the M25 is when an HGV going at about 2 mph faster than an HGV in the iside lane decides to overtake, thus reducing the road to one lane for miles. And I've seen it more than once.

Penny

Subject: RE: BS: Learner drivers allowed on UK motorways?
From: Bernard
Date: 22 Feb 12 - 02:23 PM

Oh no, Penny, I disagree... 0.001mph is the norm!!

;o)

When I was a young driver, the motorways had a 'slow lane', a 'fast lane' and an 'overtaking lane', but that was fairly quickly changed to a driving lane with two overtaking lanes - but 'middle lane hogs' do not seem to understand the danger they cause. An HGV is not allowed to use the third lane (of three), and can be held up by the moron who is doing 50 in the middle lane - unless they break the law and overtake on the inside.


As for the other tirade about young drivers and their safety record, it's the insurance companies who offer the statistics to back it up.

Oh, and Dick, care to argue about RoSPA's statistics? I'm fairly sure they know what they are talking about!

Yes, my write-off (caused by a young, inexperienced and possibly cocky) young driver may well have been one isolated incident, but I'm sure you'll agree it was one incident too many?!! I've been a fully qualified driver since June 1967, so I've had plenty of opportunities to witness the idiots on our roads, and how they behave.

The comment I made about yesterday's incident on the M60 (which made the national press and TV news) was referring to the other 'sub-argument' about the possible need for trailer towing training and testing that crept into this thread (okay, it was me, I admit it!!). I don't recall making any reference (actual or implied) to young drivers and towing trailers...

The trailer (a horse box intended for one horse and towed by a 4x4) overturned on the M60 and was reported to have been carrying at least 25 sheep... many of which perished quite horribly.

Silas quite correctly pointed out that speed is not in itself dangerous, but it can be a contributory factor. Driving too slow for the conditions is just as dangerous as driving too fast, if not more so. You have to learn to adapt your driving to the conditions around you, and the 56mph governor on HGVs is more aimed at fuel economy than road safety!!

The same is true of the 60mph National Speed Limit on single-carriageway roads, which was introduced as an economy measure at the time when we were all issued with fuel rationing tokens! We never had occasion to use the fuel tokens (I still have mine somewhere), and the speed limit wasn't lifted.

Subject: RE: BS: Learner drivers allowed on UK motorways?
From: Steve Shaw
Date: 22 Feb 12 - 02:31 PM

Good posts there, Silas. Even the one about Dick The Crawler. Don, as for your caravan, you don't pay extra road tax on it yet you take up about three times as much road space as I do. Your fuel consumption rockets so you're polluting the atmosphere, and the vehicle you have to possess with enough balls to pull the damn thing will no doubt continue to guzzle gas for the 50 weeks your caravan is not used. And I sincerely hope that you're not one of those abysmal types who keeps his caravan in his front garden to gracefully decorate the whole street for 50 weeks. If not you, well, thousands of your ilk certainly do! And oh my God, those uphill bits on the North Devon Link Road...your only chance to get past the convoy...then a bloody caravan pulls out in front of you...damn, another six miles to crawl... You're a luvly feller Don, but on this at least we must virulently part company. Now don't get me started on dog-owners...

Subject: RE: BS: Learner drivers allowed on UK motorways?
From: McGrath of Harlow
Date: 22 Feb 12 - 05:20 PM

50 miles an hour is quite fast enough. No human being ever travelled anywhere near as fast as that until the 19th century. If you want to go faster than that, go by train.

I never understand it when people conplain that speeding fines are used as a way for collecting revenue. If that were true, which it isn't, it would be a great idea - a completely voluntary tax.

Going on a motorway until you have had a fair amount of experience driving doesn't make any sense. A supplementary driving test in motorway driving before you were allowed to do it freely would make a lot of sense.

Subject: RE: BS: Learner drivers allowed on UK motorways?
From: Don(Wyziwyg)T
Date: 22 Feb 12 - 06:17 PM

""Your fuel consumption rockets so you're polluting the atmosphere, and the vehicle you have to possess with enough balls to pull the damn thing will no doubt continue to guzzle gas for the 50 weeks your caravan is not used.""

Care to post the evidence upon which you claim knowledge of my driving habits, my vehicle, its fuel consumption and how often I use it?

NO?.........I rather thought not.

Would you like to compare yours with mine, to ascertain just what an ass you are making of yourself?

NO?.........What a surprise.

Don T

Subject: RE: BS: Learner drivers allowed on UK motorways?
From: The Sandman
Date: 22 Feb 12 - 06:27 PM

Silas quite correctly pointed out that speed is not in itself dangerous.
more rubbish. speeding, and breaking speed limits is dangerous, so is tailgating.steve shaw for god sake grow up, what is this rubbish about dick the crawler, i passed my test in 1968. I AM NOT SOMEONE WHO HAS JUST PASSED THEIR TEST so comments about how I drive [of which none of you have any idea] are not relevant
I was suggesting that a good way for a driver who has just passed their test to get experience on a motorway, was to drive between one set of junctions at 50 mph on the inside lane.
I do not see how the ABOVE constitutes dangerous driving, my objection to the plan and the topic of the thread , is based on the notion that this is something that is not necessary, I do not think that learner drivers gaining experience is a bad idea, but I am very sure , that the majority of motorway accidents are not caused by drivers that have just passed their test.
all of us were drivers who once had only just passed our test, there appears to be only one person on this thread [Bernard Cromarty] who has had an accident with a newly passed driver, the whole idea while harmless is going to do very little to reduce accidents on motorways.
the idiots on this thread are those that do not recognise that the majority of dangerous driving on motorways is caused, not by newly passed drivers, but by tailgaters, and lorry drivers pulling out to overtake other lorry drivers as described earlier, and people driving faster than the motorway speed limit.

Subject: RE: BS: Learner drivers allowed on UK motorways?
From: Steve Shaw
Date: 22 Feb 12 - 07:13 PM

God, Dick, you've really lost it this time.

Now Don, are you honestly telling me that your car does not increase its fuel consumption very considerably when you're tugging your caravan? Pray tell me what miracle vehicle this is, cos I want one NOW!

Since you ask, I have a Ford Focus 1.6 diesel that gets me over 50 to the gallon on motorways and not much under that around town. Believe it or not, that is one of the most fuel-hungry cars I've ever had (hey, Dick, I passed MY test in '68 too!) Of course, I never tug a caravan with it. Now Don, what do you have, and what does it do when you're hauling your little mobile home round the country? Huh? Naturally, I assume you own two cars, one behemoth for the annual fortnight of caravan-tugging and the other with an elastic band that gets you 80 to the gallon the rest of the time. Well?

Subject: RE: BS: Learner drivers allowed on UK motorways?
From: Steve Shaw
Date: 22 Feb 12 - 08:20 PM

50 miles an hour is quite fast enough. No human being ever travelled anywhere near as fast as that until the 19th century.

Yep. And we didn't have antibiotics, we thought that lead could be turned into gold and about three in every five babies died before their first birthday. Gosh, they were the good old days!

Subject: RE: BS: Learner drivers allowed on UK motorways?
From: scouse
Date: 23 Feb 12 - 04:09 AM

The quicker England get's learner driver's on the motorways the better they've been doing it over here in the Netherlands for years and by an large you get a much better rounded driver when they come to take their test.
As Aye,
Phil.

Subject: RE: BS: Learner drivers allowed on UK motorways?
From: The Sandman
Date: 23 Feb 12 - 04:13 AM

I repeat, most accidents on motorways are not caused by drivers who have just passed their test driving on the inside lane between two junctions at 50 mph.
they are caused by drivers driving too fast, not allowing correct braking distances[ the recent motorway accident in the west country is just one example]and by heavy goods drivers and others[mainly experienced] overtaking in inappropriate places.
Steve get real.

Subject: RE: BS: Learner drivers allowed on UK motorways?
From: Stu
Date: 23 Feb 12 - 05:20 AM

We need to take learner's on motorways just to demonstrate the idiocy of those middle-lane sitters who drive with their heads up their arses and their brains in reverse. They are complete tossers. I undertake the morons and give them a cheery wave.

Rant over.

Subject: RE: BS: Learner drivers allowed on UK motorways?
From: Dave MacKenzie
Date: 23 Feb 12 - 05:51 AM

One problem is older drivers who passed their test in the 70s or earlier, and don't realise that driving conditions (and the Highway Code) have changed condiderably since then. An elderly friend of mine was pulled in a few years ago and advised by the police that he shouldn't negotiate a roundabout like that nowadays as the recommended way was completely different, and I don't know how many roundabouts there are in Ireland but I've never seen a Dub negotiate them properly, even the long-time UK residents.

Subject: RE: BS: Learner drivers allowed on UK motorways?
From: Steve Shaw
Date: 23 Feb 12 - 06:08 AM

I repeat, most accidents on motorways are not caused by drivers who have just passed their test driving on the inside lane between two junctions at 50 mph

Let's put this to bed once and for all. Dick, you are absolutely right: most accidents on motorways are not caused by drivers who have just passed their test driving on the inside lane between two junctions at 50 mph. But, Dick (sorry, two body parts in overly close juxtaposition there), here's the rub (and that doesn't help either). Please absorb: the reason most accidents on motorways are not caused by drivers who have just passed their test driving on the inside lane between two junctions at 50 mph is that drivers who have just passed their test driving on the inside lane between two junctions at 50 mph are in a very tiny minority. I would even go so far as to say that, even if every driver who has just passed their test driving on the inside lane between two junctions at 50 mph caused an accident first time out they would still not be the cause of most motorway accidents. Reason? Why, there are far too few of them! In fact, there are so few that it would probably be futile even to contemplate doing a realistic statistical analysis which attempts to demonstrate that, pro rata, fewer accidents on motorways are caused by drivers who have just passed their test driving on the inside lane between two junctions at 50 mph than by all other motorway drivers combined. Unless you know different, of course, and can provide some hard numbers. Beware of that fraught little word "caused", by the way...

Subject: RE: BS: Learner drivers allowed on UK motorways?
From: GUEST,grumpy
Date: 23 Feb 12 - 08:07 AM

Re. the earlier comment about there being very few motorways in Ireland.

There are actually 18 (12 in the Republic and 3 in the North).

Subject: RE: BS: Learner drivers allowed on UK motorways?
From: GUEST,grumpy
Date: 23 Feb 12 - 08:08 AM

Sorry - typo - should read 6 in the North.

Subject: RE: BS: Learner drivers allowed on UK motorways?
From: Don(Wyziwyg)T
Date: 23 Feb 12 - 10:10 AM

""Of course, I never tug a caravan with it. Now Don, what do you have, and what does it do when you're hauling your little mobile home round the country? Huh? Naturally, I assume you own two cars, one behemoth for the annual fortnight of caravan-tugging and the other with an elastic band that gets you 80 to the gallon the rest of the time. Well?""

O.K. mate!

""Two cars, one behemoth for the annual fortnight of caravan-tugging and the other with an elastic band that gets you 80 to the gallon the rest of the time. Well?""

WRONG ON ALL COUNTS! Well done!........One Rover 75 2000cc diesel (unchipped), which does 46mph on motorways and 42mph overall if you drive in town a lot (which I do not). Pulling the caravan on motorways at 60mph (the legal limit) 35mpg using the Rover's amazingly economical cruise control. Having a fully functioning brain I plan my trips to maximise motorway use and avoid towns like the plague, rarely using ordinary roads for more than about ten to twenty miles on a two hundred mile trip.

No behemoth, and no elastic bands I'm afraid, and BTW, the caravan is used at least 20 times during the year, mostly weekends with perhaps one or two longer trips.

Your insulting and patronising attitude displays your total lack of comprehension of towing caravans, which is not surprising, since you are only interested in having slower traffic get out of your way.

And I'm still waiting for the answer to my question:...."So just what is it that you feel is so special about you and your needs that it renders you more worthy of consideration than the rest of the community?"

Don T.

Subject: RE: BS: Learner drivers allowed on UK motorways?
From: The Sandman
Date: 23 Feb 12 - 10:22 AM

exactly, Don, this bloke is a patronising and insulting toad of toad hall.

Subject: RE: BS: Learner drivers allowed on UK motorways?
From: Don(Wyziwyg)T
Date: 23 Feb 12 - 10:27 AM

""I repeat, most accidents on motorways are not caused by drivers who have just passed their test""

Leaving aside the question of accidents which encompass a number of groups including HGVs, car delivery drivers, white van men, and occasionally new drivers, from experience both leisure and professional, the unchallenged champions of disgracefully bad driving are the sales reps who consider their work to be more important than the lives of those who share their driving environment.

Overtaking, tailgating, undertaking and cutting across three or even four lanes for a last split second exit over the junction cross hatching, and all this at between eighty and ninety mph. Or joining the motorway at eighty and carving across to the fast lane, oblivious of the massive blind spot caused by the jacket hanging from a hook over the offside rear door. They have no limit on driving hours and must supply a sizeable proportion of the numbers of sleepers who hit the barriers.

Dick is dead right about the major causes of accidents.

Don T.

Subject: RE: BS: Learner drivers allowed on UK motorways?
From: Don(Wyziwyg)T
Date: 23 Feb 12 - 10:33 AM

Getting back on topic, I don't favour the idea of learners on Motorways.

I would however be very much in favour of a required six hour course after the test and before the granting of a full licence.

The course would be with an ADI registered instructor who would have to sign off on a satisfactory result, and would include 2 hours motorway instruction, two hours night driving, and two hours on a skid pan learning proper car handling.

Don T.

Subject: RE: BS: Learner drivers allowed on UK motorways?
From: GUEST,grumpy
Date: 23 Feb 12 - 11:38 AM

This report from the UK Institute of Advanced Motorists is well worth reading re. the cause of road traffic accidents.

Licensed to Skill: Contributory Factors in Road Accidents

Section 3.1 of the report specifically covers motorway accidents and the main primary causes given were:

Failed to look properly - 25.2%
Failed to judge other person's path or speed - 24.7%
Loss of control - 21.5%
Following too close - 16.4%
Sudden braking - 12.2%
Travelling too fast for conditions - 11.4%
Poor turn or manoeuvre - 10.8%
Driver/ rider careless, reckless or in a hurry - 9.6%
Slippery road (due to weather) - 8.9%
Swerved - 8.4%

Subject: RE: BS: Learner drivers allowed on UK motorways?
From: Silas
Date: 23 Feb 12 - 02:02 PM

2 hours motorway instruction, two hours night driving, and two hours on a skid pan learning proper car handling.

Don T.



Haa haaah. Brilliant!!!!

So, no tests in the sunmmer then as it is not dark enough, and you cant live in most of wales or east anglia or scotland ...need i go on?


The stupiodity of people on this list never fails to amaze and delight me.

Subject: RE: BS: Learner drivers allowed on UK motorways?
From: The Sandman
Date: 23 Feb 12 - 02:08 PM

well Silas, you and your friend from Toad Hall are the most stupid. guest grumpy Geoff
provided this list, none of these accidents are attributed to newly passed drivers, Silas sounds like you were a sales rep, well you are someone who judging from your posts here and your attitudes to other drivers, should not be driving at all.

Subject: RE: BS: Learner drivers allowed on UK motorways?
From: GUEST,grumpy
Date: 23 Feb 12 - 03:06 PM

My name's Tom, GSS. You can find me here - http://www.myspace.com/grumpyoldguitarists.

The report I cited didn't cover the qualifications of the drivers involved in the accidents, so it's pointless to extrapolate about their abilities.

Subject: RE: BS: Learner drivers allowed on UK motorways?
From: Steve Shaw
Date: 23 Feb 12 - 03:30 PM

Calm down, Don! I didn't actually assert anything at all in my post. I simply requested information! Here's what I said: Now Don, what do you have, and what does it do when you're hauling your little mobile home round the country? Huh? Naturally, I assume you own two cars, one behemoth for the annual fortnight of caravan-tugging and the other with an elastic band that gets you 80 to the gallon the rest of the time. Well?

Here's another enquiry (feel free to respond, not respond, or simply have another rant!) - you said: Pulling the caravan on motorways at 60mph (the legal limit) 35mpg using the Rover's amazingly economical cruise control.

Well 35mpg is a bit naff these days anyway, Don, not exactement environmentally-friendly, but even so you are hardly giving us the full yarn here. A nice, steady speed on a road with only gentle gradients with your cruise control on gets you 35mpg. Now I assume you don't spend your caravan hols in motorway service area car parks, therefore you will be driving considerable distances, I assume, on twistier roads, accelerating and decelerating, lugging up long and short and steep and not-so-steep hills, stopping and starting, slowing for roundabouts and speeding up again, getting stuck behind milk tankers on big hills, forever ramming it into third... bet that lot eats into your 35mpg somewhat! :-)

Subject: RE: BS: Learner drivers allowed on UK motorways?
From: The Sandman
Date: 23 Feb 12 - 03:33 PM

so in fact your statistics are not relevant, since they are not connected to drivers who have just passed their test.

Subject: RE: BS: Learner drivers allowed on UK motorways?
From: Steve Shaw
Date: 23 Feb 12 - 04:08 PM

Or do you mean "not connected to drivers who have just passed their test driving on the inside lane between two junctions at 50 mph?"

Subject: RE: BS: Learner drivers allowed on UK motorways?
From: The Sandman
Date: 23 Feb 12 - 05:03 PM

oh the man with the iron gob or the gob iron, welcome back Mr Toad.
have you learned the tune the learner driver yet.

Subject: RE: BS: Learner drivers allowed on UK motorways?
From: Don(Wyziwyg)T
Date: 24 Feb 12 - 05:20 AM

""So, no tests in the sunmmer then as it is not dark enough, and you cant live in most of wales or east anglia or scotland ...need i go on?""

Thank you for your ignorant, insulting, response.

I said "INSTRUCTION", not test, and there are plenty of driving instructors who are willing to supply a couple of one hour sessions in the darkness, even in mid summer.

You are correct in one respect though. The level of stupidity, bad manners and ignorance does rise when you are around.

Don T.

Subject: RE: BS: Learner drivers allowed on UK motorways?
From: Don(Wyziwyg)T
Date: 24 Feb 12 - 05:33 AM

""I assume, on twistier roads, accelerating and decelerating, lugging up long and short and steep and not-so-steep hills, stopping and starting, slowing for roundabouts and speeding up again, getting stuck behind milk tankers on big hills, forever ramming it into third... bet that lot eats into your 35mpg somewhat! :-)""

I believe I have already covered that point, but just to add a little extra, on my last trip to Wales (Maidstone Kent to Anglesea), I was able to average approx 33 mpg, and on that trip, as you may or may not know, there is a considerable stretch of just such roads.

As for constantly banging it into gear, I don't know how much you abuse your car, but the impression you give isn't particularly good. Mine is an automatic and the cruise control gives pretty seamless changes and minimum throttle.

Now I know its a waste of time, arguing about caravans with a (rather less intelligent) Jeremy Clarkson clone, so if you've anything sensible to say on topic, I might respond.

Don T.

Subject: RE: BS: Learner drivers allowed on UK motorways?
From: Silas
Date: 24 Feb 12 - 05:58 AM

Hello Don

You may or may not be aware that it does not properly dark till well after 10.00pm in the middle of an English summer. I don't know of many driving instrctors that would be prepared to give instruction at this time of night. And what about having to drive eighty miles just to get on a motorway for instruction?

BTW Iam not and have never been a sales rep, but I find it absoloutly amazing that you ae able to tell a drivers profession just from the fact that he has a jacket hanging in the back of his car.

Subject: RE: BS: Learner drivers allowed on UK motorways?
From: Don(Wyziwyg)T
Date: 24 Feb 12 - 10:09 AM

Well you would find it amazing since you are looking for any reason to have a go.

However, that jacket hanging across a window and effectively tripling the rearward blind spot has been almost a trademark of the breed for over 40 years. It's done so that they meet prospective clients with their jacket in pristine, uncreased condition. Image is everything you know, even coming ahead of safety. There are of course other distinguishing marks such as the models of car they have gravitated to over the years.

I'm amazed that you apparently haven't noticed.

Don T.

Subject: RE: BS: Learner drivers allowed on UK motorways?
From: Silas
Date: 24 Feb 12 - 10:46 AM

Hello Don.

Well, the thing is, you see, the car manufacturers seem to place the 'coat hook' in most cars in the same place - just above the rear windows, so I would imagine that it is a bit difficult if you want to hang your jacket anywhere else. As for 'blind spot', is it any worse than any van without rear side windows?

Funnily enough, I don't assume just because someone is driving a particular model of car that they are a sales rep.

Subject: RE: BS: Learner drivers allowed on UK motorways?
From: Dave MacKenzie
Date: 24 Feb 12 - 11:21 AM

"As for 'blind spot', is it any worse than any van without rear side windows?"

In my experience, most vans have larger side mirrors to compensate. Additionally, larger vehicles will have a notice warning other drivers of their blind spots.

Subject: RE: BS: Learner drivers allowed on UK motorways?
From: Silas
Date: 24 Feb 12 - 11:34 AM

Well larger vehicles possibly, but a car derived van, as many are, have the same size mirrors.

Subject: RE: BS: Learner drivers allowed on UK motorways?
From: Dave MacKenzie
Date: 24 Feb 12 - 11:46 AM

Maybe I've just been lucky! Back in the 71s when I first passed my test, i was advised not to use my wing-mirrors as you had to be able to drive with just the interior mirror, and I still see lots of drivers doing that. When I later upgraded my automatic license to manuel (I only had access to an automatic in the 70s) I was advised to use everything available, and then, before I could drive for Royal Mail, I had a bit more training and testing.

Subject: RE: BS: Learner drivers allowed on UK motorways?
From: Dave MacKenzie
Date: 24 Feb 12 - 11:49 AM

Lucky in that all the vans I've driven (80cf upwards) have been well-endowed mirror-wise, but it's the first thing I noticed on an Escort.

Subject: RE: BS: Learner drivers allowed on UK motorways?
From: Richard Bridge
Date: 24 Feb 12 - 01:37 PM

There are some awful and inconsiderate caravan drivers. Don, John Barden, Brian Rodgers, and I (to name some folkies about whose driving I DO know) are not among them. We press on but not excessively. My Volvos (either of the turbos or the twin cam) will tug most things without effort and John's Mondeo (V6 if my memory serves me) ditto. Don and Brian both use the very capable Rover with the BMW diesel turbo lump, Brian's being chipped and more than capable of holding over 80 where permitted on the continent with a large van on the back.   

I do however get very vexed with some loonies who stick up my chuff when I am (a) doing about 5 over a local limit because I don't want to hold traffic up and (b) in fact also being held up by someone going shopping.

Anyone with more than half a brain should make extra room for horse boxes - the horses do not like lateral G nor indeed braking forces.

Anyone should be able to drive and know what is behind them with either or both of wing mirrors or internal rear view mirror.   

Apart from his ignorance about caravans, Steve makes a lot of sense. Silas overlooks the many reps who are trying to cover too many miles and may arrive dead on time, and may well be overtired/overstressed by deadlines/inattentive - or just dozing off on the motorway through boredom. Other than that he makes a lot of sense.

Dick plainly has no idea, as is demonstrated by his confusing a tachometer and a speed limiter.


I am constantly amazed by the motorway idiots who sit as close as three feet to another car. Often I am the ONLY vehicle within visual range observing the "two chevron" rule. I am constantly amazed by the idiots who don't know the basic rule - keep left except when overtaking (or positioning to do so). As for the middle lane owners club, I'd just LOVE a heavy machine gun, particularly when I have the van on and am therefore prohibited from overtaking on what is the only legal side (save when in a two or more lane queue of traffic). Overtaking on the inside is dangerous - first it is illegal and therefore it is not expected. So the risk of the slower vehicle pulling in is considerable. Sure he should be looking - but the very fact that he has not moved over in alarm at the sight of your purple eyeballs ten feet from his rear-view mirror almost proves he is not looking. Ignoring that does not make you a good candidate for life insurance.

Then there are the twats who think they are entitled to enter the left hand lane from the slip road. They should never force another vehicle to brake by emerging from the slip road.   But I've had dozens who seem to know nothing about "speed matching" pull out in front of me when I cannot pull out because there is someone coming up on my outside, so forcing me to brake - whether or not I have the van on.

So some sort of motorway education is pretty important. I can see considerable merit in a two stage test, with the motorway test coming AFTER passing the basic test, and those preparing for the second stage allowed on motorways ONLY with a qualified instructor in a dual control car. There is something similar for motorbikes in that there are capacity thresholds.

Subject: RE: BS: Learner drivers allowed on UK motorways?
From: GUEST,Eliza
Date: 24 Feb 12 - 02:15 PM

I've been absolutely terrified by tailgaters on the motorway. You're doing 70mph, and some person is a yard from your rear bumper. I've also been scared when in between two huge container lorries. They change lanes as if I'm not there, and I've nearly become the meat in a sandwich a few times! Nowadays I stay in lovely Norfolk, but anyone starting their driving career needs strategies for dealing with these things.

Subject: RE: BS: Learner drivers allowed on UK motorways?
From: The Sandman
Date: 24 Feb 12 - 03:48 PM

part from his ignorance about caravans, Steve makes a lot of sense. Silas overlooks the many reps who are trying to cover too many miles and may arrive dead on time, and may well be overtired/overstressed by deadlines/inattentive - or just dozing off on the motorway through boredom. Other than that he makes a lot of sense.

Dick plainly has no idea, as is demonstrated by his confusing a tachometer and a speed limiter.
Richard bBridge, if i have no idea
why are you agreeing with me here;



"I am constantly amazed by the motorway idiots who sit as close as three feet to another car. Often I am the ONLY vehicle within visual range observing the "two chevron" rule."
YOU SHOULD READ MY POSTS PROPERLY.

Subject: RE: BS: Learner drivers allowed on UK motorways?
From: HuwG
Date: 25 Feb 12 - 03:32 PM

With regard to Silas, the Vauxhall Cavalier in the late 1980's and early 1990's, and to a lesser extent the Skoda Octavia a decade later, were often derided as "Repmobiles".

May I mention here one of my favourite gripes, the fault of manufacturers rather than drivers? It is the common colour scheme used by some of them to give an impression of up-market chic, namely the narrow variations of greyish-silver or silvery-grey. In rainy weather with lots of spray, this colour scheme allows such cars to proceed in true stealth mode, if they forget or omit to put on side lights.

In a cloud burst on the M60 (the Manchester outer ring road) a few weeks ago, with the roads like glass, I looked in my rear-view mirror, signalled to take the A6144 (the Carrington spur), and moved left into the turn-off lane. The next thing I knew, my mirrors were full of big silver 4x4 (which may have been a Mitusubishi Pajero), which had appeared out of nowhere.

Now, the 4x4 driver had not had his (or her) lights on, had been travelling at a speed (at least 75mph) which verged on reckless in the conditions and may have been attempting to use the Carrington spur lane as an undertaking lane, all of which would have added up to a lot of points on his (or her) license had he (or she) gone to court, but would have been cold comfort to me had I been punted up the rear and sent spinning into the armco or into the path of other traffic.

Subject: RE: BS: Learner drivers allowed on UK motorways?
From: Bernard
Date: 25 Feb 12 - 03:44 PM

Faulty lights are a great annoyance, especially all these modern cars that don't have any indicators fitted... or so it would seem!!