BS: Guns & laws in the US

Subject: RE: BS: Guns & laws in the US
From: Richard Bridge
Date: 22 Mar 12 - 03:07 PM

I didn't invent the quote. I only read it and pointed out what it looked and sounded like.

I admit I hate and scorn a wide range quite even-handedly. Mostly. A few more than others, like conservatives (and their brothers under the skin who we do not mention) and people who bomb civilians and oppress whole nations (or would like to) and adherents of the Gordon Gecko mindset. And those who use their religions to oppress.

But I can't be low, as you will find many to tell you I look down my nose at people.

Subject: RE: BS: Guns & laws in the US
From: Lighter
Date: 22 Mar 12 - 11:27 AM

Olddude, I believe you're correct.

On the larger question of "hating Yanks." My personal experience is that real "Yank hatred" is far less common than some Yank-hating 'Catters believe.

Let's recall too how many people from all over are trying desperately to relocate here.

Subject: RE: BS: Guns & laws in the US
From: pdq
Date: 22 Mar 12 - 10:18 AM

Don't take it seriously, Dan.

Richard "Low" Bridge hates everybody.

Subject: RE: BS: Guns & laws in the US
From: GUEST,olddude
Date: 22 Mar 12 - 10:06 AM

I don't know where you live Richard, but the people I know, grew up with are far from what you describe. I guess a lot of foreign folks hate us yanks but we are all use to it

Subject: RE: BS: Guns & laws in the US
From: Richard Bridge
Date: 22 Mar 12 - 09:55 AM

"the land of the free and the home of the DON'T FUCK WITH ME" - put like that - that is supposed to be a good thing? It reads more like the battle hymn of the aggressive and dangerous uneducated uncivilised yahoo.

I have a cunning plan - leave the guns alone. Put a VERY large tax on ammunition, and license the smelting of lead (all those dangerous fumes, you know).   Come to that license the manufacture of gunpowder, tax it heavily, and allow rebates for documented and proven industrial and agricultural USE. That comes within the regulation of commerce and is constitutional.

Subject: RE: BS: Guns & laws in the US
From: GUEST,olddude
Date: 22 Mar 12 - 09:27 AM

Lighter
it is because they are in the hands of criminals. Not to keep repeating but if a felon can go to a gun show, but 15 AK-47's and a host of handguns, take them to a city drug gang and sell them for 10 times what he paid .. the purchase was legal, the rest was not .. how can that make sense. Now you have armed a drug militia group with weapons that out gun the police ... Nothing makes sense for sure.

Subject: RE: BS: Guns & laws in the US
From: Lighter
Date: 22 Mar 12 - 09:15 AM

The Canadian figures are here:

http://www.rcmp-grc.gc.ca/cfp-pcaf/facts-faits/archives/quick_facts/2011/dec-eng.htm

According to the RCMP, the 33 million Canadians own about 8 million registered guns.

According to the USDJ, in 1995, 300 million Americans owned 223 million guns:

http://web.archive.org/web/20071214070953/http://www.ojp.usdoj.gov/bjs/pub/pdf/guic.pdf

(That number is presumably higher now. It's an old document but still informative.)

Maybe you're thinking of Switzerland. Every every adult Swiss male is required by law to own an automatic weapon and ammunition for national defense. Homicides in Switzerland are rare.

Antebellum Southerners certainly were afraid of slave rebellions, and on the Frontier you'd be crazy not to have a pistol to defend yourself. But research shows that the rate of shootings in places like Dodge City and Tomstone was nothing like in the movies.

But none of these facts explains the amazingly high rate of shootings and gun homicides in the United States. I haven't checked, but I believe it began early in the 20th century. Overall rates of violent crime really took off in the '60s, but have been dropping for about twenty years.

Subject: RE: BS: Guns & laws in the US
From: GUEST,olddude
Date: 22 Mar 12 - 09:05 AM

Like anything else in life, what we need is to plug the loopholes that put dangerous things into the hands of irresponsible people. Fix the gun show law, enforce the drunk driving and texting law etc .. heck I read where I guy ran over a little kid in Texas, he was picked up five times before on drunk driving .. why did he still have a license? Well they plea bargain it down ... ya see, it is all about responsibility not weapon.

Subject: RE: BS: Guns & laws in the US
From: GUEST,olddude
Date: 22 Mar 12 - 08:51 AM

Don
I understand your point my friend but the same can be said for drunk drivers ... careless and crazy extend to all area's of life, not just gun owners. There are responsible people, there are not responsible people that will always do harm to others regardless of the weapon. sometimes it is even a car

Subject: RE: BS: Guns & laws in the US
From: Jim Dixon
Date: 22 Mar 12 - 08:30 AM

Sorry I came late to this conversation--

Lighter: I'm surprised to read that Canadians "own guns at a rate half that of the US." I remember Michael Moore, in his film *Bowling for Columbine* said the opposite: that Canadians owned more guns but had less gun violence. However, I'm pretty sure Moore was including rifles and shotguns. (More Canadians are hunters). I'll bet your figures refer only to handguns.

Another point that Moore made was that the tradition of keeping guns for self-defense became strong in the South during slavery days because whites were always afraid of slave rebellions. Also, the gangs that went out to recapture runaway slaves were armed, and guns were used to intimidate blacks during the Jim Crow era. So my guess is, there are still regional differences in gun ownership, and the northern states may be more comparable to Canada.

Subject: RE: BS: Guns & laws in the US
From: Little Hawk
Date: 21 Mar 12 - 09:46 PM

Your problem isn't guns. Your problem is a terrible and growing gulf of economic disparity between the rich and the poor, massive social injustice, a decaying infrastructure, loss of traditional jobs, the busting of unions, privatization of public institutions, high unemployment, gross lack of social services, unpayable public debt, erosion of civil rights, and a corrupt government that has sold itself out to private corporate interests and banks and abdicated all social responsibility in the process.

Your problem is endemic corporate fascism run by banks and billionaires. Fascists like guns...but they don't particularly like having the guns in the hands of the ordinary public...rather, they would prefer that all firepower be in the hands of the police, the army, the private mercenaries (such as Blackwater), and the various security services (governmental and private contractors).

The various random acts of violence that occur on the part of ordinary citizens with guns will only strengthen the draconian powers of corporate fascism in a crackdown response that potentially affects everyone...therefore those incidents are actually quite convenient for promoting the general fascist program that is already underway.

When people get really scared, they tend to panic and call for "security"...and they'll let their regular civil rights be taken away with hardly a whisper of protest. That's what's been happening bit by bit ever since 911. 911 was the USA's equivalent of the Reichstag fire. It has similarly enabled a fascist takeover...one that still clothes itself in the fig leaf of a supposed 2-party "democracy".

Subject: RE: BS: Guns & laws in the US
From: Bobert
Date: 21 Mar 12 - 08:50 PM

Yeah, John P.... Couple months ago I heard where two families had a feud and one guy had a gun... During the altercation the guy with the gun accidentally shot both his brother and his father while shooting none of the other folks they were fighting with???

BTW, the father lived but his brother wasn't so lucky...

B~

Subject: RE: BS: Guns & laws in the US
From: number 6
Date: 21 Mar 12 - 08:10 PM

Anyway ... Bruce says that ... me, I think guns aren't the problem, people are (this includes governments, corporations and the common peons) and it's not just in the U.S. A. were people are all f&%kd up, it's a phenomenon that is happening the world over ((in case you haven't noticed) ... and why are people the world over getting so wonky ... I really don't know, maybe it's the food, maybe it's the water, or something in the air, maybe the sports shoes they wear ... or more than likely it has to do with all those reality T.V. and 'what ever' idol programs.

biLL's 2 cent rant of the week.

Subject: RE: BS: Guns & laws in the US
From: number 6
Date: 21 Mar 12 - 07:56 PM

The following excerpt is from an interview with Canadian (yes a Canadian) folk singer, and a global enviromental/peace activist Bruce Cockburn ...

.......

King: You are or have been a handgun enthusiast and target shooter. Can a man of peace own handguns?

Cockburn: I don't want to get into a debate about gun control. In Canada it's kind of a nonissue, because we have plenty of guns, and we don't have a gun-crime problem.

I do think the Second Amendment to your Constitution is legitimate. In the context of the time in which it was written, it was entirely appropriate to make sure the populace was not going to be a pushover for a military takeover. But that was an era when the military wasn't much better equipped than the population.

In the current context you can't outgun the authorities. They've always got bigger guns. It's about knowledge and information now. So if you want to protect your constitutional right to defend yourself, the way to do it is through having enough information that you can make sound choices, and through demonstrations of the sort we've seen against the World Trade Organization and the Iraq War. An armed response to government oppression is not effective other than as an attention getter. The thing that scares them most is people knowing the truth; otherwise they wouldn't go to such lengths to keep it from us.

Personally, I think that in a democracy the authorities should not be the only ones who are armed. The best-case scenario would be if nobody was armed. But if the cops are going to have guns, then people should have them too.

The gun-control issue can distract us from more important issues, like the environment and social justice and exploitation. These problems are complicated by the presence of weapons, and that needs to be looked at, but gun control is not the biggest issue we face.
......

biLL

Subject: RE: BS: Guns & laws in the US
From: Don(Wyziwyg)T
Date: 21 Mar 12 - 07:28 PM

""Yanks don't take shit... from you or their government and that is PARTICULARLY why the USA is the land of the free and the home of the DON'T FUCK WITH ME""

"Land of the free"....as long as you ain't Black, Hispanic, Chinese, Muslim, Native American, or Sick, and you have lots of dough!

Nothing is free in the US, and neither are a huge number of its citizens.

Don T.

Subject: RE: BS: Guns & laws in the US
From: GUEST,Chongo Chimp
Date: 21 Mar 12 - 05:01 PM

I got guns all over the place, lotsa guns, guns of every kind, and I have NEVER shot a family member or a friend in the home. Not once.

Okay, I have shot a coupla ex-friends who turned out not to be such good friends after all....but that don't count. If they was real friends, I would not have shot them.

And not once have I shot down an ex-friend in the home. No sir. Not once.

(I did shoot one of them down in the hallway once, though...he seen it comin' and he made a break for the door, so I didn't actually ventilate him proper till he was not technically in my home no longer. He was 6 feet outside the entrance door and runnin' down the 2nd floor hallway. I shot him straight through the west office wall with my tommy gun. 32 rounds. And he deserved it!)

You people who wanta take away my guns had better think twice, cos you are walkin' on very thin ice and swingin' on a vine that is just about to break.

- Chongo

Subject: RE: BS: Guns & laws in the US
From: John P
Date: 21 Mar 12 - 04:46 PM

The right to peace and quiet enjoyment of life . . .

Right, with a bunch of untrained, angry idiots running around with guns in their pockets. Somehow it doesn't feel peaceful to me. So my right to peace is trumped by violent armed people? And you say they are living in peace?

If they were doing something that had no effect on other people, I would defend their right to do whatever. Guns, however, have a large impact on other people. My whole life is being infringed on by gun people.

Subject: RE: BS: Guns & laws in the US
From: Lighter
Date: 21 Mar 12 - 04:39 PM

It's unambiguous in the sense that "not infringed" is the norm. That means further regulations must not be true infringements. If you're not a criminal, you still get to own a gun, regardless of the later-legislated paperwork and so on, as long as the paperwork doesn't infringe on your right to own one.

At least that's how I see it. One could argue that even licensing is an "infringement" of Constitutional rights, but two hundred years of reasoned opinion would seem to deny that assertion.

Not that I expect it, but a properly argued suit before the Supreme Court could conceivably change things, now or a hundred years from now. That's how the rule of law works.

Subject: RE: BS: Guns & laws in the US
From: gnu
Date: 21 Mar 12 - 04:11 PM

"And anyone who owns and carries a handgun is, by definition, prepared to kill a human being."

YES! SO WHAT? In my mind, it is ridiculous to state it. I look at it this way. Anyone who owns and carries a handgun is, by definition, prepared to defend themselves, their families, their fellow citizens and their property... LEGALLY.

BIG difference and BIG INFERENCE on your part... which has NO justification and no status as an arguement against LEGAL guns.

MGM... "right-thinking people everywhere". Apparently not. Fact is, Yanks don't take shit... from you or their government and that is PARTICULARLY why the USA is the land of the free and the home of the DON'T FUCK WITH ME. That is what their nation was founded on. That is their constitution. The right to peace and quiet enjoyment of life and if you fuck with that, they reserve the right to shoot your ass... when it's LEGAL AND JUSTIFIED. Their government is iffy on that one... you know... their Militia running amok in other countries (my country too, sniff)... but that's on so many other threads.

Ya know... this thread(s) is never gonna end. Fact is, I own a gun. I ain't gonna shoot you... unless you tell me you are gonna take my gun. Don't worry. I am a marksman. You won't feel a thing.

gnightgnu... have fun with it.

Subject: RE: BS: Guns & laws in the US
From: John P
Date: 21 Mar 12 - 03:45 PM

"the right of the people...shall not be infringed" seems pretty unambiguous.

Did you know that in the Constitution, every time the word "people" is used it is referring to the citizenry as a whole, and every time a specific individual right is being given the word is "person"? Why should the 2md amendment be any different?

Is requiring a background check, trigger locks, and getting rid of hand guns really infringement? These things don't stop anyone from owning a gun. Does infringement refer to the basic right, or to any rules we might make up to make ourselves safer? Seems quite ambiguous to me.

On a different subject, I read in the paper last week that a gun in the home is four times more likely to be used on a friend or family member that to be used defending the home against invasion. People who think that gun control laws are infringement need to convince me that they have a plan for dealing with this statistic. Given these numbers, anyone who keeps a gun in the house is saying that every home invader is worth four family members.

Subject: RE: BS: Guns & laws in the US
From: maeve
Date: 21 Mar 12 - 03:44 PM

continuing...
I suppose to be accurate I should say gnu is indeed a North American, but not one of the USA type. We should be so lucky!

Subject: RE: BS: Guns & laws in the US
From: maeve
Date: 21 Mar 12 - 03:36 PM

MtheGM- Gnu is not now, nor has he ever been, an American; can't tar him with that feather.

Subject: RE: BS: Guns & laws in the US
From: Lighter
Date: 21 Mar 12 - 03:34 PM

It wasn't supposed to "wash." (This is the gun thread, not the Zimmerman thread.)

It means that people who pack guns are more likely to think that others are doing the same. And I suppose packing one at the moment of being ready to use it enhances the effect.

Subject: RE: BS: Guns & laws in the US
From: Don(Wyziwyg)T
Date: 21 Mar 12 - 03:07 PM

""And dig this:

http://news.yahoo.com/holding-gun-may-think-others-too-221346341.html""

Sorry Lighter, that won't wash. The tape of the kid begging for his life is proof positive that he was not the aggressor, and that he was coldbloodedly executed.

No way out!

Don T.

Subject: RE: BS: Guns & laws in the US
From: MGM·Lion
Date: 21 Mar 12 - 03:04 PM

gnu ~~ do you really not see that it is your national failure to 'give a shit who don't like it FOR ANY FUCKING REASON' ~~ about what anyone else in the world thinks about anything whatever which doesn't suit your own [in your eyes] god-given purposes ~~ that makes you a hissing and a byword and an object of hatred and contempt to so many right-thinking people everywhere; when you ought by rights, given just a little less of that self-centred national megalomania of yours, to be the most loved and respected nation in the history of the world.

This I mean literally, not poetically or hyperbolically.

Is it really worth it, just to have your own way in any conceivable circumstances?

~M~

Subject: RE: BS: Guns & laws in the US
From: Don(Wyziwyg)T
Date: 21 Mar 12 - 03:01 PM

""Anyway, "the right of the people...shall not be infringed" seems pretty unambiguous.""

There you go again, leaving out the limiting phrase about "Tyranny in Government", later repeated as follows: ""The strongest reason for the people to retain the right to keep and bear arms is, as a last resort, to protect themselves against tyranny in government."
       -- Thomas Jefferson, Thomas Jefferson Papers, vol. 1, p.334""

Subject: RE: BS: Guns & laws in the US
From: olddude
Date: 21 Mar 12 - 02:43 PM

Greg
Mahlon told me , "love working on your friend Greg's watches, he is such a nice person" nail one on ebay and have him fix it for you. MAN what he did to that steel cased one of mine is amazing and it was a mess when I bought it

sorry for thread creep ... back to guns

Subject: RE: BS: Guns & laws in the US
From: Don(Wyziwyg)T
Date: 21 Mar 12 - 02:42 PM

""It's the "handgun culture" (which can't come directly from traditions of hunting game).""

No, you're right. It comes from the nineteenth century tradition of shooting human beings at the drop of a hat, or a careless word.

Apart from competitive target shooting, there is only one purpose to a handgun.....Shooting human beings!

And anyone who owns and carries a handgun is, by definition, prepared to kill a human being. The problem is with the wide variety of reasons which, to the shooter, will justify the killing.

We have just seen that, in at least one case, walking through the shooter's neighbourhood while wearing a black face was justification in the minds of the shooter, the Mayor, the Police Chief and the District attorney.

Am I the only person who finds that a terrifying prospect?

Suffice to say that, if I won the lottery tomorrow, I would leave the US out of my world tour itinerary, in spite of a lifelong desire to see Yellowstone, the Grand Canyon, springtime in New England, and many other places.

Don T.

Subject: RE: BS: Guns & laws in the US
From: Bobert
Date: 21 Mar 12 - 02:38 PM

Whatever, Amos... The militia is part of the subject... I mean, if you were diagramming the sumabich it would be part of the subject whereas the right to bare firmly in the caboose... Right???   

B~

Subject: RE: BS: Guns & laws in the US
From: Greg F.
Date: 21 Mar 12 - 02:14 PM

You are on a roll today Greg :-)

Ah well, Dan, some days start out badly & go right downhill from there.

Lets do another watch wind off .. my 992B can beat your 992B...

Well, you win hands down! My best Hamilton is a 992- don't have a 992B.
You'll have to give me a little time to get one & send it to Mahlon for a tune-up. ;>)

Be well-

Greg

Subject: RE: BS: Guns & laws in the US
From: gnu
Date: 21 Mar 12 - 02:04 PM

Maybe the citizens of the USA reserve the right of revolution if their government starts killing them for political or economic or other "reasons"?

Murder (rates) among the general populace being associated with gun ownership as a standalone hypothesis is absurd. Crime, poverty and lack of education are at the heart of all of the woes. As Dan said, he can make his own gun. So can every machine shop in the world. Therefore, I would suggest that unless these statistics are broken down into sub-categories, they are meaningless. At least three are required : crime related, domestic related and nut related. The only one that counts is domestic related and even that isn't 100%.

Spaw hit on a very important point. History and culture. You Brits that have chimed in just don't understand. Yanks do NOT TRUST their government. They remember the Boston Tea Party, slavery, Viet Nam... they WILL NOT give up their right to bear arms, nor should they HAVE TO DO SO. It's perfectly legal to bear arms IF they are not doing illegal things. And, it's up to the GOVERNMENT to stop crime, alleviate poverty and educate people. BUT, here's the deal... the US government isn't (able to?) doing these things.

So, in the end, the right to own a LEGAL gun in the good ol USA shall not be infringed... and they don't give a shit who don't like it for ANY FUCKING REASON, especially for a bunch of statistics which are not analyzed in a way that any conclusions can be drawn with accuracy to support people who say Yanks are gun crazy.

Subject: RE: BS: Guns & laws in the US
From: Bill D
Date: 21 Mar 12 - 01:50 PM

"Does it mean that the right shall not be infringed *solely* because of the need for a well regulated militia? Or because that need is just one good reason?"

It means that in 1789, there was no confusion. If the country needed to be defended, all male citizens who had weapons WERE the de facto militia! They had an odd assortment of weapons, and it was presumed that when not defending the country, they used them for hunting and VERY occasionally, self-defense or settling scores..(dueling did exist).
When writing the 2nd amendment, they had no idea we'd have either the social problems, or the weapons technology we do today.
'Interpreting' what they meant now is done by deciding what you'd LIKE it to mean, then constructing an argument to fit. What is needed is a revision based on current issues....... fat chance! (Bobert explained it quite well)

Subject: RE: BS: Guns & laws in the US
From: Lighter
Date: 21 Mar 12 - 01:20 PM

And dig this:

http://news.yahoo.com/holding-gun-may-think-others-too-221346341.html

Subject: RE: BS: Guns & laws in the US
From: Lighter
Date: 21 Mar 12 - 01:06 PM

The "problem" is in the intended relationship between the two clauses.

Does it mean that the right shall not be infringed *solely* because of the need for a well regulated militia? Or because that need is just one good reason?

The Supreme Court has decided on the latter interpretation. Had the Founders meant otherwise, it would have been easy enough to be more specific, like granting the right only to active members of such a militia.

And homicidal shootings were so rare in the eighteenth century, when firearms were clumsy, that the Founders may not have considered them a serious objection to the right to hunt and defend onself without interference.

Anyway, "the right of the people...shall not be infringed" seems pretty unambiguous.

Subject: RE: BS: Guns & laws in the US
From: Stu
Date: 21 Mar 12 - 12:59 PM

A written constitution is an albatross around the neck of any modern democracy.

I have to say I walked into a gun shop in the US 18 months ago and it was a scary and sobering experience for a hayseed from the UK like wot I is . . . I really didn't feel at all comfortable. I put it down to cultural differences and squeamishness (I'm happy to be that way, as there are more than enough guns in the world as it is).

Never mind. More than made up for by the fact the US is the best place in the world to get brekkers.

Subject: RE: BS: Guns & laws in the US
From: Amos
Date: 21 Mar 12 - 12:34 PM

Bobert:

Actually, the subject of the sentence is NOT "militia", which appears in an adverbial clause. The subject of the sentence is "right". The predicate of the sentence is "shall not be infringed", a passive verb construction.

A

Subject: RE: BS: Guns & laws in the US
From: GUEST,olddude
Date: 21 Mar 12 - 12:20 PM

You are on a roll today Greg :-)
Lets do another watch wind off .. my 992B can beat your 992B :-)

Subject: RE: BS: Guns & laws in the US
From: GUEST,Raparree
Date: 21 Mar 12 - 12:16 PM

The only "gun group" of which I am a member is the National MUZZLELOADING Rifle Association. They compete with matchlocks, caplocks, flintlocks, and so on.

The only "survivalist" group of which I am a member is...none. Never have been, never (as far as I know) will be.

Yes, I have firearms. I enjoy shooting them at PAPER TARGETS -- not silhouette, not pictures -- circles within circles. I might try my hand at Cowboy Action Shooting this year as they have very, very strict rules on safety and don't tolerate among them gun crazies. They also limit the types of firearms you can use to originals or reproductions of originals which date prior to 1899 (with one specialized exception).

I posted the quotes, as I noted at the time, to facilitate discussion. They may or may not demonstrate my own beliefs and anyone who thinks otherwise had too many courses in literary criticism and/or watches too much television.

Bill, my point was that the thinking of the "Founding Fathers" carries over to the present day. Nothing more.

A final farewell to this thread.

Subject: RE: BS: Guns & laws in the US
From: Greg F.
Date: 21 Mar 12 - 11:59 AM

What's the problem? Worked for the Earp brothers & Doc Holliday.

Subject: RE: BS: Guns & laws in the US
From: Lighter
Date: 21 Mar 12 - 11:43 AM

It turns out that 21 states now have "stand-your-ground" laws. (According to CNN.)

The Florida law apparently states that you can only shoot *if* the other person was the first aggressor and *if* you believe that your *life* or someone else's is in imminent danger.

It turns out, again according to CNN, that of the 40 cases of "stand-your-ground" shootings in Florida, most or all involved unarmed victims.

In legislative debates on such laws, law enforcement (a conservative bunch, no?) has opposed them while the National Rifle Association has vigorously supported them. Despite its large membership, the NRA functions essentially as the lobby for gun dealers and manufacturers.

The gun-show loophole is big enough to drive a tank through. It's vigorously supported by the NRA.

Since they don't seem to care who buys a gun at a gun show, NRA members who support the loophole must be crime-proof.

Subject: RE: BS: Guns & laws in the US
From: Bobert
Date: 21 Mar 12 - 11:40 AM

100,000 Americans will be shot in 2012 by other Americans with handguns...

America has the highest per capital murder rate of any civilized industrialized nation in the world...

Yet, we aren't allowed to have this conversation because those who ***profit*** from the sales of handguns have enough money to out-shout any sensible, adult conversation about guns because, in their very narrow view, the 2nd amendment says so...

Problem is that the 2nd amendment says no such thing... It is a single sentence and ***not*** two... That meas it has a subject and a predicate... The subject of the amendment is "well regulated militia" and everything else, including the "right to bare arms" is in the predicate... But basic English doesn't enter into either the NRA or the Supreme Clowns thinking because of the $$$ and power of the NRA...

So we don't have that sensible, adult conversation...

And the beat goes on... As well as the carnage...

B~

Subject: RE: BS: Guns & laws in the US
From: Greg F.
Date: 21 Mar 12 - 11:29 AM

Rap is one of the nicest people you could ever meet.

Never said he wasn't, Dan, he likely is. I don't know him so I can't - and wouldn't - say one or the other.

He likes his firearms so what...

So do I "like my firearms" & have quite a few & a NY concealed carry permit.

But if you read the whole collection of the quotations he posted, you'll have to admit that the impression given was ..... well, lets say, oa bit fanatical??

I'm with you- nuke the gun shows & have a uniform, federal carry permit process instead of the hodge-podge of State regs that run from New York's to the ridiculous.

Subject: RE: BS: Guns & laws in the US
From: GUEST,olddude
Date: 21 Mar 12 - 11:19 AM

Spaw
I am still laughing about that cannon last night on Top Shot ... OMG
every year they come up with something else ...

Subject: RE: BS: Guns & laws in the US
From: catspaw49
Date: 21 Mar 12 - 11:00 AM

How about we go back to Atlatls?

Spaw

Subject: RE: BS: Guns & laws in the US
From: GUEST,olddude
Date: 21 Mar 12 - 10:48 AM

Well if I had to go back into a spider hole, I would want Rap next to me for sure, I trust him with my life any day

Subject: RE: BS: Guns & laws in the US
From: Bill D
Date: 21 Mar 12 - 10:45 AM

Yes.. what olddude said...*I* have met Rap... and he IS a good, sensible, honest guy. We have different opinions on part of this issue, but I would trust him with my life.

Subject: RE: BS: Guns & laws in the US
From: olddude
Date: 21 Mar 12 - 10:35 AM

Oh Bill, crazy folks will get guns no matter what country or what laws. Hell I can build one from scratch myself if I wanted to and it would be a fine weapon ... We can't do anything about the crazies. We can make it harder for felons to get and distribute weapons via gun laws. The Mexican drug guys get the weapons from the Texas gun shows 1 mile from the border. They use our own weapons against our border agents and police. Nuts ain't it.

Greg
Rap is one of the nicest people you could ever meet. He likes his firearms so what .. Some folks like me also like banjo's ... that was uncalled for and I would expect better from you

Subject: RE: BS: Guns & laws in the US
From: Bill D
Date: 21 Mar 12 - 10:26 AM

If Rap is indeed leaving this thread (he was posting as I was typing), I don't suppose I'll get a direct answer.
But I put for the record, that I divide the issue into 2 parts...

1)What SHOULD we have as a sane, reasonable situation

2)What should we do, considering the facts about how many weapons are already IN private hands.

I think that olddude is on the right track regarding #2.... it is just too easy to GET guns.... but I also believe that tightening laws about gun shows will do very little to control access to guns by the seriously dangerous folk who intend to commit violence. It may make it harder for the average guy to buy a gun on a whim, and thus might limit some in-home tragedies...but there are always guns available. The prices might go up.... but really crazy folks will raise the money.

Subject: RE: BS: Guns & laws in the US
From: Bill D
Date: 21 Mar 12 - 10:09 AM

*reading Rap's post again this morning*

"Sorry, Bill. The record is against that."

I'm trying to figure out exactly what of MY post 'the record is against'. Do you mean that since the 1700s and early 1800s, various famous & semi-famous folk have seemed to support private ownership of guns? If so, that's not a direct reply to my point.
I argued that: ... as society changed, so did the need for private ownership of weapons...and I mean specifically handguns and semi-automatic 'super' weapons. A short list of quotes from the likes of Lincoln, JFK and HHH do not, by themselves, disprove my assertion.

I find it somewhat .... looking for right words... scary & disingenuous? that we should keep laws & arrangements that allow so many incidents like the school shootings and neighborhood drive-bys, just on the paranoid 'principle' that we 'may' need guns ...someday... to resist our own government.

That sort of reasoning--in many cases- 'feels' to me like a cover-up for just liking to mess with guns....

Subject: RE: BS: Guns & laws in the US
From: Greg F.
Date: 21 Mar 12 - 10:01 AM

I hope Rap has his underground shelter all dug & equipped and has been stockpiling drinking water, MRE's and most importantly lots of ammunition and guns, so that he's all set for Armageddon and the Race Wars. And maybe The Rupture.

Which millenialist/militia group does he belong to, anybody know??