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Songs to Star of the County Down?

DigiTrad:
I HEARD THE VOICE OF JESUS SAY
MURDER OF MARIA MARTIN
ROGER THE MILLER
STAR OF THE COUNTY DOWN
THE MAID OF MOURNE SHORE
THREADS WIDELY EXPANDED
TRISTAN AND ISOLDA


Related threads:
(origins) Origins: Star of County Down (additional verses?) (33)
Coaxing elf (from Star of the County Down) (11)
Origin: Star of the County Down (36)
songs to the tune of Star of the County Down (75)
Tune Kingsfold (34)
Lyr Req: Little Town in the Old County Down (14)
Star of the County Dunn (closed) (43) (closed)
Lyr Req: Starbucks of County Down (parody) (16)
Lyr? The Hedges of County Down (10)
Chord Req: The Star of the County Down (7)
Seek MP3: Star of the County Down (4)
Req:religious alt words to star of the county down (9)
Lyr Add: Murder o' the County Down (8)
Lyr/Chords Req: The Flower of the County Down (16)
Lyr Req: The Star of the County Down (closed) (5) (closed)
More verses on Star of the County Down? (7)
Tune req: Star of the County Down (9)


Jonathan 14 Oct 99 - 10:15 PM
alison 14 Oct 99 - 10:30 PM
Barry Finn 14 Oct 99 - 10:34 PM
Barry Finn 14 Oct 99 - 10:42 PM
Bruce O. 15 Oct 99 - 12:08 AM
Lance 15 Oct 99 - 12:45 AM
John in Brisbane 15 Oct 99 - 03:53 AM
Martin Ryan 15 Oct 99 - 04:51 AM
alison 15 Oct 99 - 08:14 AM
alison 15 Oct 99 - 08:43 AM
Den 15 Oct 99 - 09:30 AM
lamarca 15 Oct 99 - 11:58 AM
Philippa 15 Oct 99 - 12:53 PM
T in Oklahoma (Okiemockbird) 15 Oct 99 - 02:04 PM
Mel 15 Oct 99 - 02:14 PM
Den 15 Oct 99 - 02:34 PM
Den 15 Oct 99 - 02:39 PM
Martin _Ryan 15 Oct 99 - 06:06 PM
T in Oklahoma (Okiemockbird) 15 Oct 99 - 07:22 PM
Jonathan 15 Oct 99 - 07:23 PM
T in Oklahoma (Okiemockbird) 15 Oct 99 - 07:34 PM
Jonathan 15 Oct 99 - 07:37 PM
T in Oklahoma (Okiemockbird) 15 Oct 99 - 09:13 PM
Margo 16 Oct 99 - 01:09 PM
Paul S 17 Oct 99 - 08:08 AM
Lorraine 17 Oct 99 - 10:19 AM
Martin _Ryan 17 Oct 99 - 11:50 AM
PeggyL 17 Oct 99 - 02:29 PM
Bruce O. 17 Oct 99 - 05:48 PM
T in Oklahoma (Okiemockbird) 17 Oct 99 - 06:21 PM
Bruce O. 17 Oct 99 - 06:45 PM
Bruce O. 17 Oct 99 - 07:01 PM
T in Oklahoma (Okiemockbird) 17 Oct 99 - 07:35 PM
Brakn 17 Oct 99 - 08:32 PM
Charlie Baum 18 Oct 99 - 12:53 AM
Mary in Kentucky 20 Jan 00 - 10:07 PM
alison 21 Jan 00 - 02:59 AM
GUEST,Okiemockbird 21 Jan 00 - 09:14 AM
Blackcat2 21 Jan 00 - 10:29 AM
Wesley S 21 Jan 00 - 11:14 AM
kendall 22 Jan 00 - 07:52 PM
kendall 23 Jan 00 - 09:02 AM
GUEST,Allan S. 23 Jan 00 - 09:55 AM
kendall 23 Jan 00 - 11:30 AM
GUEST,Annraoi 25 Jan 00 - 08:48 PM
Jon W. 26 Jan 00 - 11:49 AM
Helen 21 Mar 00 - 04:00 AM
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paddyc 21 Mar 00 - 01:26 PM
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kytrad (Jean Ritchie) 17 Oct 03 - 09:06 PM
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Subject: Songs to Star of the County Down?
From: Jonathan
Date: 14 Oct 99 - 10:15 PM

Hi, I'm only an occasional reader of this forum, but it seemed like the best place to ask this question -- what songs do folks know (preferably trad) that use the same tune as Star of the County Down? This came up in another context on a mailing list, and people mentioned Dives & Lazarus, the Murder of Maria Martin, and Claudy Banks. I actually found all these in the database, but Claudy Banks seemed to have a different tune. Is anyone familiar with this song being sung to S of the C D? And for all of them, do they use the 2/4 or 3/4 version of the tune?

Some friends and I have performed the tune (in 3/4) instrumentally and would like to sing it, but don't really like the Star of the County Down words all that much...

Thanks, Jonathan


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Subject: RE: Songs to Star of the County Down?
From: alison
Date: 14 Oct 99 - 10:30 PM

Here's a few

crooked Jack, (in the database)

the land where the shamrocks grow, (in an old thread)

slainte

alison


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Subject: RE: Songs to Star of the County Down?
From: Barry Finn
Date: 14 Oct 99 - 10:34 PM

Crooked Jack by either Brendan or Dominic Behan. I'm pretty sure this is all in an old thread but I don't know where that thread is now. Barry


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Subject: RE: Songs to Star of the County Down?
From: Barry Finn
Date: 14 Oct 99 - 10:42 PM

Great minds t..... & their fast too. Barry


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Subject: RE: Songs to Star of the County Down?
From: Bruce O.
Date: 15 Oct 99 - 12:08 AM

There is an old thread on this. The oldest copy of the tune is "Gilderoy" in Alex. Stuart's 'Musick for Allan Ramsay's Collection of Scots Songs [Tea Table Miscellany]', c 1726, and there's an ABC of it as B159 in the broadside ballad tunes on my website. It's over a 150 earlier the "The Star of the County Down". Several other names for it are in a group at the end of the Irish tune index on my website, and more songs using the tune are given under "Lazarus" in Bronson's 'The Traditional Tunes of the Child Ballads'. The recent 'Sources of Irish Traditional Music', 1998 has no copies other than Scots ones of "Gilderoy" and that in Shield's opera 'Marian', through their cut-off date of 1855. It seems to be first found elsewhere as "We are poor frozen out gardeners" in Wm. Chappell's 'Popular Music of the Olden Time' as a song and tune Chappell heard about 1818. www.erols.com/olsonw


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Subject: RE: Songs to Star of the County Down?
From: Lance
Date: 15 Oct 99 - 12:45 AM

Try the hymn "The King of Love My Shepherd Is"


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Subject: RE: Songs to Star of the County Down?
From: John in Brisbane
Date: 15 Oct 99 - 03:53 AM

Great to see you back Bruce as a real person. May we continue to deserve your attention. Refards, John


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Subject: RE: Songs to Star of the County Down?
From: Martin Ryan
Date: 15 Oct 99 - 04:51 AM

Johnathan

Waterson/Carthy recorded (on the CD Commonm Tongue) a version of Claudy Banks to what is basically a 6/8 version of the Star of the etc. Another version is used for Lily of the West etc etc.

I seem to remember someone remarking, only half-jokingly, that "There are only four tunes in the whole of the Ulster Song Tradition - and three of them are versions of the Star of the COunty Down"!

Regards


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Subject: RE: Songs to Star of the County Down?
From: alison
Date: 15 Oct 99 - 08:14 AM

If you're into Christmas Carols...

Oh sing a song of Bethlehem

slainte

alison


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Subject: RE: Songs to Star of the County Down?
From: alison
Date: 15 Oct 99 - 08:43 AM

Another beautiful hymn

I heard the voice of Jesus say

slainte

alison


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Subject: RE: Songs to Star of the County Down?
From: Den
Date: 15 Oct 99 - 09:30 AM

There is also, "Theres sure to be a row." Its a fairly funny song to the tune of The Star of the County Down.

Martin I think who ever it was that half joked that we may be lacking in traditional songs should get north of the border a little more often. I guess he never heard of Sarah Makem. Den


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Subject: RE: Songs to Star of the County Down?
From: lamarca
Date: 15 Oct 99 - 11:58 AM

I sing a version of "The Unquiet Grave" set to the tune in 2/4; it's in the Hammond-Gardiner collection of English folksongs. Also, if you squint sideways at it, "Rollin' Down to Old Maui" is a variation as well.


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Subject: RE: Songs to Star of the County Down?
From: Philippa
Date: 15 Oct 99 - 12:53 PM

Men/People of No Property song circa 1970 about Toome eel fisheries, Lough Neagh


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Subject: RE: Songs to Star of the County Down?
From: T in Oklahoma (Okiemockbird)
Date: 15 Oct 99 - 02:04 PM

Other hymn-lyrics I have heard sung to this tune (which is also known as "Kingsfold"): "O Jesus crowned with all renown" and "When Jesus left his father's throne."

T.


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Subject: RE: Songs to Star of the County Down?
From: Mel
Date: 15 Oct 99 - 02:14 PM

The Manchester Lads was recorded ages ago by Mike Harding using this tune, though played a bit slower than usual.

'twas on a monday morning as I have heard them say, our orders they came from Manchester we were to march away, leaving many a pretty fair maid to cry what shall we do, the Manchester lads have gone abroad, whatever shall we do.


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Subject: Lyr Add: THERE’S SURE TO BE A ROW^^
From: Den
Date: 15 Oct 99 - 02:34 PM

Here's the words to "There's sure to be a row" if anyone would like them.

There's Sure To Be A Row
I'm a poor unhappy married man
I have an awful wife
Though I do everything for her
Still she plagues my life
Though I do everything that's right
She'll find some fault somehow
And If I stay out late at night
There's sure to be a row

Chorus
There's sure to be a row
There's sure to be a row
Do all in your life for to please your wife
Or there's sure to be a row

She wakes me in the morning
In such a cruel way
She kicks me out upon the floor
Not a cross word dare I say
I have to wash my socks and fronts,
My shirts also I vow
That if I don't wash hers aswell
There's sure to be a row

Chorus

I hand her up my wages
After working all the week
I hand her up my wages
And still she has the cheek
To hand me twopence for myself
And that I have to vow
That if I spend it all at once
There's sure to be a row

Chorus

She's taken in a lodger
And he's single by and by
She says we must make room for him
So I on the sofa lie
They eat the meat give me the bones
Now that don't seem right somehow
And if I dare to say one
Then there's sure to be a row

Chorus (2x)
Den^^


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Subject: RE: Songs to Star of the County Down?
From: Den
Date: 15 Oct 99 - 02:39 PM

Did anyone guess what the missing WORD was in the second last line? Den


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Subject: RE: Songs to Star of the County Down?
From: Martin _Ryan
Date: 15 Oct 99 - 06:06 PM

Den

It wasn't the songs he was getting at - just the lack of tunes! Seriously, though: the Ulster singing tradition is wonderful - great songs and great characters to sing them. I was at the festival in Forkhill recently and enjoyed it thoroughly.

Regards


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Subject: RE: Songs to Star of the County Down?
From: T in Oklahoma (Okiemockbird)
Date: 15 Oct 99 - 07:22 PM

Bruce O., was a version of "Gilderoy" published in D'Urfey's Pills to Purge Melancholy" (1719) as well?

Another set of words to this tune is "Come all ye faithful Christians." See Journal of the Folk Song Society #7(1905), page 115ff.


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Subject: RE: Songs to Star of the County Down?
From: Jonathan
Date: 15 Oct 99 - 07:23 PM

Such a wealth of them! Didn't know that about Ulster ... :-) ... ought to have no trouble finding some words my group likes, then -- if I can decide which of all those nice-looking recordings to buy!

I hadn't really had hymns in mind, but in fact we sometimes do Unitarian church services and they might come in rather handy. Maybe we could even work up an "all-star" program: do a whole evening of the songs on this thread ...

Thanks, all, Jonathan


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Subject: RE: Songs to Star of the County Down?
From: T in Oklahoma (Okiemockbird)
Date: 15 Oct 99 - 07:34 PM

Actually almost any song in "common meter double" or in common or ballad meter with verses that can be combined (such as "Amazing Grace") could be sung to this tune. If you're willing to merge notes a little you can songs in 76.76.D meter, such as "The yellow rose of Texas" and "The Church's One Foundation."

T.


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Subject: RE: Songs to Star of the County Down?
From: Jonathan
Date: 15 Oct 99 - 07:37 PM

Now that's odd ... it looked like a lot of you had attached pointers to recordings for sale with the songs you were talking about on them, and I thought, how helpful! (If perhaps a bit commercial). Then I sent my own message, and a pointer to a CD appeared with it, too. Does the forum do that automatically, then?

(I guess it does -- even my original post now has a couple of green clicky things attached, which I hadn't noticed. And I guess I do still think that in this context it's more helpful than commercial, but I'm glad to have figured out there's no guarantee that if I buy the CD I'll get the version of the song you were talking about!)

Jonathan


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Subject: Lyr Add: Lazarus^^
From: T in Oklahoma (Okiemockbird)
Date: 15 Oct 99 - 09:13 PM

Here are five verses of the version of Lazarus that was set to St.C.D in English County Songs by Lucy E. Broadwood and J.A. Fuller-Maitland, London and New York, 1898, page 102. The version in the Digital Tradition differs from this one. T.
1. As it fell out upon one day rich Diverus he made a feast;
and he invited all his friends and gentry of the best.
And it fell out upon one day, poor Lazarus he was so poor,
he came and laid him down and down, ev'n down at Diverus' door.

2. So Lazarus laid him down and down, ev'n down at Diverus' door;
"Some meat, some drink, brother Diverus, do bestow upon the poor."
"Thou art none of mine, brother Lazarus, lying begging at my door,
no meat, no drink will I give thee, nor bestow upon the poor."

5. Then Diverus sent his merry men all to whip poor Lazarus away;
they had not power to whip one whip, but threw their whips away.
Then Diverus sent out his hungry dogs, to bite poor Lazarus away;
They had not power to bite one bite, but licked his sores away.

6. And it fell out upon one day, poor Lazarus he sickened and died.
There came two angels out of heaven his soul thereto to guide.
"Rise up, rise up, brother Lazarus, and come along with me,
there is a place prepared in heaven for to sit upon an angel's knee."

7. And it fell out upon one day, rich Diverus sickened and died.
There came two serpents out of hell his soul thereto to guide.
"Rise up, rise up, brother Diverus, and come along with me,
there is a place prepared in hell for to sit upon a serpent's knee."


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Subject: RE: Songs to Star of the County Down?
From: Margo
Date: 16 Oct 99 - 01:09 PM

Yes, the closest I've heard is Lily of the West. Liam's brother (Dan Milner) did that one on his latest CD. Claudy Banks is so very different, I don't see how it was likened.... Margo-rita


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Subject: RE: Songs to Star of the County Down?
From: Paul S
Date: 17 Oct 99 - 08:08 AM

On Pete Seeger's American Industrial Ballads CD, there's a song called The Blind Fiddler. If not bang on, it's pretty close to the same tune.

Paul


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Subject: ADD: My Dearest Dear ^^
From: Lorraine
Date: 17 Oct 99 - 10:19 AM

Lorraine Lee(Bennett) and Rick Lee recorded a song to that famous tune which I believe they said that they got from the Ritchie family.

"My Dearest Dear"

The time has come my dearest dear
When you and I must part
But you'll never know the tears and woe
Of my poor troubled heart.

My dearest dear now dry your tears
For I hate to see you cry
The best of friends must oft times part
And now it's you and I.

Don't you remember that starry night
When you gave to me your hand
And swore that if ever you married were
That I would be the man

Oh I remember that starry night
when I gave my hand to you
And I would gladly have been your bride
If you had but proven true.

Take back those cruel words my love
I can't from you depart
And can't you see my dearest dear
YOu are breaking my poor heart

When I am dead and in my grave
And you stand a mourning here
The birds will sing on every tree
You are my dearest dear.


I have enjoyed singing this for many years now. Lorraine ^^


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Subject: RE: Songs to Star of the County Down?
From: Martin _Ryan
Date: 17 Oct 99 - 11:50 AM

Margarita:

Claudy Banks is sung to many tunes. Listen to the Waterson/Carthy version if you get a chance. Its very good, IMHO, - and it is the same tune!

Regards
I agree abouit LIam's Brother's (excellent) version of Lily of the West. I spent yesterday learning it!


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Subject: RE: Songs to Star of the County Down?
From: PeggyL
Date: 17 Oct 99 - 02:29 PM

I never realized there were so many songs to the tune of 'Star' -- there is also a very beautiful song by Rory Cooney to it called, "Canticle of the Turning" -- it's available through GIA Publications in Chicago.


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Subject: RE: Songs to Star of the County Down?
From: Bruce O.
Date: 17 Oct 99 - 05:48 PM

English County Songs cited above for "Lazarus" is of 1893. In the same work is "The Thresher and the Squire" (17th century, "The Nobleman's Generous Kindness") set to a variant of the "Gilderoy" tune, but it is set to a different tune in The Scots Musical Museum. The original of the latter was to be sung to "The Two English Travelers", in turn sung to "A new Irish Tune" that I've tryed for years, in vain, to identify.


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Subject: RE: Songs to Star of the County Down?
From: T in Oklahoma (Okiemockbird)
Date: 17 Oct 99 - 06:21 PM

Oops. Your right, Bruce O., I did erroneously write "1898" instead of the correct date of 1893. I think I've written the correct date elsewhere in the forum.

Anyhow, did a version of "Gilderoy" appear in D'Urfey's "Pills" ?

T.


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Subject: RE: Songs to Star of the County Down?
From: Bruce O.
Date: 17 Oct 99 - 06:45 PM

Pills, yes, but I haven't looked at it closely, as it is said to be a garbled version. Pills III, 1707 and 1712 editions, and V, 1719-20 edition. PS: I've also mistyped dates on many occasions, no disrespect implied, just getting the record straight.


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Subject: Tune Add: Gilderoy's last Farewel. To a New Tune
From: Bruce O.
Date: 17 Oct 99 - 07:01 PM

Here's the Pills version from the reprint of the 1719 edition.

X:1
T:Gilderoy's last Farewel. To a New Tune
S:Pills, V, p. 39 (1719)
Q:120
L:1/4
M:C|
K:Am
G/G/ cd/e/d/c/|de/d/cA|A/^G/A2c|\
e/f/g(a/g/) (f/e/)|f/e/d/c/de/d/|cAA/^G/A||\
a/|g/e/g2(f/e/)|(f/e/) (d/c/) d/e/ (G|G) (A/G/) (G/E/)G|\
GA/B/c (d/e/)|f/e/d/c/de/d/|cAA/G/A|]


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Subject: RE: Songs to Star of the County Down?
From: T in Oklahoma (Okiemockbird)
Date: 17 Oct 99 - 07:35 PM

Bruce O., thanks for the abc on D'Urfey's "Gilderoy". No problem about correcting the date; thanks for pointing it out. T.


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Subject: RE: Songs to Star of the County Down?
From: Brakn
Date: 17 Oct 99 - 08:32 PM

Van Diemen's Land is similar.


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Subject: RE: Songs to Star of the County Down?
From: Charlie Baum
Date: 18 Oct 99 - 12:53 AM

For years, my friends and I have been using the waltz-time "Star of the County Down" tune for the Shabbas zemer (Jewish Sabbath table-song) "Tzur Mishelo Achalnu" (Literally, "Rock from whom we have eaten", though that's a terrible unidiomatic translation).

--Charlie Baum


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Subject: RE: Songs to Star of the County Down?
From: Mary in Kentucky
Date: 20 Jan 00 - 10:07 PM

I'm reviving this thread because I heard the beautiful "Five Variants of Dives and Lazarus" by Ralph Vaughan Williams on the radio this morning. I of course searched the Mudcat discussions (and DT tunes) and realized that I had missed this thread last fall. Now that I've done some reading I have a couple of questions.
1) Anybody got a good RVW source that documents the folksongs he uses in his works?
2) Why is the Kingsfold tune used for so many hymns, but when I looked up "Dives and Lazarus" at the cyber hymnal, it was a completely different tune? (Dilwyn)

Mary


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Subject: RE: Songs to Star of the County Down?
From: alison
Date: 21 Jan 00 - 02:59 AM

It's down as Kingsfold in my hymn book too.. but the tune is definately "Dives and Lazarus"

slainte

alison


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Subject: RE: Songs to Star of the County Down?
From: GUEST,Okiemockbird
Date: 21 Jan 00 - 09:14 AM

As I mentioned in a post above, this particular folk tune, as collected by RVW from a singer in the village of Kingsfold, was published by him as "Come all ye faithful Christians" in Journal of the Folk Song Society #7(1905), page 115ff.

T.


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Subject: RE: Songs to Star of the County Down?
From: Blackcat2
Date: 21 Jan 00 - 10:29 AM

This once again lends credence to the concept that while there are thousands of tunes and thousands of lyrics out there, the lyrics are often the part of the song that survives. So many people have come across lyrics without a tune and because of the quality of the lyrics have "fit" them to another tune they actually know (I've done this in the past and a couple of times, when I've learned of the original tune, have likes the "fit" better.)

When there are more than just 4 tunes in Irish music, it is more accurate to say that so many lyrics can fit into a surprisingly small number of tunes. Our folk group in Orlando often sings "Amazing Grace" to the tune "House of the Rising Sun" (actually we sing just about everything to that - we get rather goofy).

pax yall


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Subject: RE: Songs to Star of the County Down?
From: Wesley S
Date: 21 Jan 00 - 11:14 AM

Blackcat 2 - Try Amazing Grace to the tune of the theme from "Gilligans Island" . Wierd. There is a singer I've heard - Ed Kilbourne - who does a medly of Amazing Grace to some really well known tunes. I think Peaceful Easy Feeling is another. I think his website is www.flybynight.com


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Subject: ADD: Greet Me in the Morning (Kathleen Logan)
From: kendall
Date: 22 Jan 00 - 07:52 PM

I dont know how to bring back an expired thread, but, someone asked for other songs to the tune of Star of the County Down. Here is one written by a good friend of mine named Kathleen Logan.

GREET ME IN THE MORNING
(Kathleen Logan)

Oh, my dear he rests in my loving arms
In the quiet of early day..
But, when evening passes is he gone?
Oh, my love what can I say?

Chorus
Will you greet me in the morning, when the sunlight fills your hair,
Or will I awake from my dreaming love to find that you're not there?

Will you come with me to the shadowland
Where wayward lovers sing
I'll take your hand and we'll share the dance
And we'll see what morning brings
CHORUS

Will you sail with me to the lovers sea
Where tender times know no door
And we'll watch the waves bring our memories
Swift and constantly to the shore.
CHORUS

Oh what chance has this love of mine
As it sails upon the wind
Without a resting spot to find
Just the memories of him
CHORUS

Melody: "Star of the County Down"


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Subject: RE: Lyr Add: Star of the County Down
From: kendall
Date: 23 Jan 00 - 09:02 AM

I'd like some feedback on this if you care to comment


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Subject: RE: Lyr Add: Star of the County Down
From: GUEST,Allan S.
Date: 23 Jan 00 - 09:55 AM

Wow!!!!! I had to pull a hard copy of "Greet me in the morning" just to keep. I choke up just reading the words. Don't think I could get through singing it in fromt of anyone. Just remembering an old love who has gone on to the "Shadow land" Hope to see lots of old friends when I get there. It certainly has changed my mind about those who start out with "And then I wrote" Kendall I hope you will pass this on to your Kathleen THanks Allan


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Subject: RE: Lyr Add: Star of the County Down
From: kendall
Date: 23 Jan 00 - 11:30 AM

I already did..thanks so much for your reply. I think she is wonderful.


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Subject: RE: Songs to Star of the County Down?
From: GUEST,Annraoi
Date: 25 Jan 00 - 08:48 PM

Try returning to the Irish Tradition for variants of "The Star of the County Down" (Whom I married, by the way !) Two examples spring immediately to mind 1. "Liam Ó Raighille." Co. Galway. 2. "a Chomaraigh Aoibhinn Ó." Co Waterford. This latter has just returned to popularity within the last couple of years. There must be many more. Annraoi


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Subject: RE: Songs to Star of the County Down?
From: Jon W.
Date: 26 Jan 00 - 11:49 AM

I was surprised to find in the LDS (Mormon) hymnbook a song called "If You Could Hie To Kolob (in the twinkling of an eye)" which is a variation on the tune. The book credits the tune as an English (?!) folk tune adapted by Ralph Vaughn Williams.

Don't ask where Kolob is. I could tell you, but then I'd have to baptize you :)


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Subject: RE: Songs to Star of the County Down?
From: Helen
Date: 21 Mar 00 - 04:00 AM

The Star of the County Down is currently a topic on the e-mail harplist. This reference to a previous posting to the list came up in today's mailing. The definitive answer (perhaps?) to which hymns use this tune.

Helen

http://www.tns.lcs.mit.edu/harp/archives/current/0061.html [Harplist] County Down / Kingsfold in SIX hymnals

Rpoolnyc@aol.com Wed, 2 Jun 1999 22:09:07 EDT

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From: Rpoolnyc@aol.com

Dear Friends at the Harplist:

Mary Radspinner responded to Barbara Christensen's question about the tune "County Down" and identified it as the hymntune "Kingsfold." Using the references from my recent publication "Hymns & Harmony" I have found the following resources for this melody:

1. Worship III (Catholic) # 490 "All you who seek a comfort sure..." #607 "I heard the voice of Jesus say...."

2. Hymnbook 1982 (Episcopal) #292 "O Jesus, crowned with all renown...." #480 "When Jesus left his Father's throne....."

3. The Presbyterian Hymnal #308 "O sing a song of Bethlehem...." #434 "Today we all are called to be....." #601 "Blest be the God of Israel......"

4. The United Methodist Hymnal #179 "O sing a song of Bethlehem...." #285 "To mock your reign, O dearest Lord....." #606 "Come, let us use the grace divine....."

5. Rejoice in the Lord (The Reformed Church in America) #356 "O sing a song of Bethlehem...."

6. Lutheran Book of Worship #391 "And have the bright immensities...."

This illustrates the importance of knowing the name of a TUNE versus the FIRST LINE of text. In all cases, this tune appears in the key of E minor (one sharp). Although this tune does not appear in my new fakebook "Hymns & Harmony," there are one hundred other choices of equal merit. (** Mea culpa** -- and you heard it here first!)

Best wishes, Ray Pool http://www.raypool.com


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Subject: RE: Songs to Star of the County Down?
From: Jacob B
Date: 21 Mar 00 - 11:41 AM

I own a small book (which I don't have with me, unfortunately) of versions of The Star Of The County Down - not different songs to the same tune, but different versions of the same song. The original version (from County Down) was rewritten into a music hall version, so as to sound more stereotypically "Irish".


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Subject: RE: Songs to Star of the County Down?
From: paddyc
Date: 21 Mar 00 - 01:26 PM

Another variant is "The Fighting 69th"-about an Irish-American regiment in the civil war. It's recorded by the Wolfe Tones but my favourite version is by the Dropkick Murphys. Visit their website for lyrics & more info.

Paddy


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Subject: RE: Songs to Star of the County Down?
From: GUEST,Philippa
Date: 16 May 01 - 06:31 PM

see my note above, posted back in 1999. I just happened upon lyrics to the song about the Toome Eel fisheries at http://mai.flora.org/forum/4943


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Subject: RE: Songs to Star of the County Down?
From: Marion
Date: 16 May 01 - 07:25 PM

If you use just the verse melody to Star of the County Down and leave out the chorus, you can sing Robert Service's most famous poem, "The Cremation of Sam McGee."

A bit long for a song, but well written.

(In case you don't recognize the title, it's the one that goes "There are strange things done in the midnight sun by the men who moil for gold; the Arctic trails have their secret tales that would make your blood run cold...". Every Canadian in the audience will know it!)

Marion


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Subject: RE: Songs to Star of the County Down?
From: Amergin
Date: 17 May 01 - 02:27 AM

You're right, Marion it does fit rather well!

Well....here I am taking lessons from Larry...this is sung to Star also...


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Subject: RE: Songs to Star of the County Down?
From: SeanM
Date: 17 May 01 - 03:26 AM

I'm amused that PaddyC mentioned the "Fighting 69th" variant - I'm listening to a CD right now by The Fenians that includes a track that does them both back to back without missing a beat...

M


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Subject: RE: Songs to Star of the County Down?
From: GUEST,JB
Date: 17 May 01 - 03:54 PM

I recorded a CD in 1994 featuring "There´s sure to be a row" which has the same air as "Star of Co. Down". I somehow felt the story wasn´t quite complete so I wrote a final verse as a warning to all young men never to marry a nagging wife.

Come all you young unmarried men A warning take by me If you value your life, don´t take a wife That will mean an early grave For she´ll nag you night noon and morning The truth I must avow You can bet your life and I know I´m right There´s sure to be a row

If you wish you can listen in at the MP3 page on my website at:

www.john-barden.de

unfortunately my English page is not yet complete.

Another great song to the same air is "Captain Colston" abot piracy on the high seas.


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Subject: RE: Songs to Star of the County Down?
From: kytrad (Jean Ritchie)
Date: 17 Oct 03 - 09:06 PM

Lorraine-PM: tried to PM you, but 'they' wouldn't accept your name. But if you see this, I just wanted to say that the lyric you printed in your posting, above, is my own reworking of our lovely old 'breast of glass' song, so as to fit the words into the 'Star of the County Down' tune- it's a favorite of mine, and I couldn't ever get the original (?) ones to fit well. My fault I guess...Anyway, I did it especially for the Lee/Nicholson album, to follow their dulcimer instrumentals of the tune- in three different rhythms (maybe not the right word- but as a march, a waltz, etc). The recording is now available as a CD, recently requested by Lorraine Lee Hammond. I think it's listed on my website if anyone is interested in our uses (mis-uses?) of the song.


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Subject: RE: Songs to Star of the County Down?
From: InOBU
Date: 18 Oct 03 - 10:51 AM

There is something about this tune, like the french tune when I lived in the house of my father (Quand j'etais chez mon pere), that just fits a bunch of words. When recording my first CD, (of four now for all you looking for secret santa gifts... ;-) ) I had written the song mentioned in the early post about this, the song about the Underground Railroad... however, becoming distracted by a fire next door, I returned to the studio and sat down and sang my song about the Abanaki Indians coming to the Quaker Settlement at Easton, (The ballad of Ruth Folger) during the revolution, to the tune of Star of the county down by accident. Listened to it, very pleased with the recording, then realized I had used the wrong tune! So, somewhere in the dusty recesses of my computer is another song to this tune.
As to the Toome Eal Fisheries, great song. I was asked to update it by friends who are fishers in Ardbo, and it my new version (not to the tune of Star of the County down) is in the mudcat memory here, under Fishers of Ardbo, or Toome Eal Fishers or something,
Cheers to all
Larry


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Subject: RE: Songs to Star of the County Down?
From: Clinton Hammond
Date: 18 Oct 03 - 12:01 PM

It's not exactly the same tune, but Rollin' Down To Old Maui can be done with the exact same chord progression as Star Of The County Down...


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Subject: RE: Songs to Star of the County Down?
From: kytrad (Jean Ritchie)
Date: 18 Oct 03 - 06:58 PM

Ah well, all of us know that "Star of the County Down," is not alone in having been used to bear different messages over the years. I can think of some others- for example, "This Land is Your Land." And as Woody used to say, "If you're going to borrow, borrow from the best!"


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Subject: Hymns to Kingsfold
From: Haruo
Date: 22 May 08 - 03:39 PM

A couple days ago I posted a list of more than 30 hymn texts that have been set to KINGSFOLD in hymnals in my collection. I first posted it at the (US/Canada) Hymn Society discussion board, then (with live links, which HSUSCA doesn't support, to the majority of the texts) at BaptistLife.com. It's not the last word (since every time I open a recent hymnal I seem to find a new one, and I haven't looked under STAR OF THE COUNTY DOWN, just under KINGSFOLD) but it is the largest collection of such I've yet seen.

Here's my BL.com post


Haruo


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Subject: RE: Songs to Star of the County Down?
From: Georgiansilver
Date: 22 May 08 - 04:22 PM

Some years back I heard "John Barleycorn" sung to the tune and sung well. Sounded good.


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Subject: RE: Songs to Star of the County Down?
From: GUEST,Bodger
Date: 23 May 08 - 03:37 AM

Pinball Wizard!


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Subject: RE: Songs to Star of the County Down?
From: GUEST,Trialia
Date: 28 Jul 15 - 04:41 AM

This thread is ancient, but I can add another from the British Unitarian hymn book "Sing Your Faith" - "Where my free spirit onward leads".


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Subject: RE: Songs to Star of the County Down?
From: Joe Offer
Date: 28 Jul 15 - 05:22 AM

Thanks for that, Trialia. It's also in the U.S. Unitarian hymnal, Singing the Living Tradition.
As stated above, as a hymn tune, "Star of the County Down" is known as KINGSFOLD.

-Joe-


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Subject: RE: Songs to Star of the County Down?
From: GUEST,Dave
Date: 28 Jul 15 - 07:33 AM

Kingsfold is a set tune to at least 55 hymns:

http://www.hymnary.org/texts?qu=tuneAuthNumber%3Akingsfold_english%20in%3Atexts&sort=matchingInstances


As others have said it is a very old folk tune, the earliest printed version is the Scottish Gilderoy, but it is best known in England as Dives and Lazarus (recorded by Nic Jones amongst others), or The Murder of Maria Marten (recorded by Shirley Collins amongst others). Vaughan Williams arranged it as a hymn tune in the very early 20th century, his custom was to name the tune after the village in which was the pub where he first heard it. Kingsfold is in Sussex, near where he used to live.

Star of the County Down postdates not only Gilderoy and Dives and Lazarus, but also the use of Kingsfold as a hymn tune.


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Subject: RE: Songs to Star of the County Down?
From: GUEST,Dave
Date: 28 Jul 15 - 07:37 AM

Vaughan Williams also of course composed "Five Variations on Dives and Lazarus" based upon this tune, though this was about 30 years later.


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Subject: RE: Songs to Star of the County Down?
From: CupOfTea
Date: 28 Jul 15 - 09:30 AM

I've followed this tune down a number of paths without ever singing the "coaxing elf" storyline, and I do love the melody. It took some concentrating to play it as a waltz at first, since my strongest imprint is of it as a hymn tune - Kingsfold in the hymnal I work out of, with several different texts used. I can really go at it with fervor on the autoharp.

Where I love it best is used for "The Canticle of the Turning" aka "The World is about to turn" - an Annunciation/Magnificat themed text that really resonates. I first encountered this as part of a set of international pieces used for a "World Music Evensong" service, where I played this on concertina along with guitar and bodhran.

I also have an unhealthy enjoyment of parodies, and was fortunate to have a friend of a friend pass on to me the witty "Starbucks of County Down." I did in March, when trying to find something different to sing that still had a familiar flavor, specifically for my favorite open mic at a Starbucks.

I wonder, is there any term besides "popular" or "favorite" for tunes that have a lively career with a huge range of texts (or meter)?

Joanne in Cleveland


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Subject: RE: Songs to Star of the County Down?
From: Tattie Bogle
Date: 28 Jul 15 - 08:20 PM

Has nobody mentioned Van Diemen's Land? (Aka Come all ye gallant poachers) . It has been mentioned in other threads. Same tune again!


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Subject: RE: Songs to Star of the County Down?
From: GUEST,Musket in music mode
Date: 29 Jul 15 - 03:10 AM

I sing two songs to the tune.

The Lancashire Lads
Crooked Jack

Sing them in different keys and tempo with different guitar styles and I can cram them in the same set without too many noticing....


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Subject: RE: Songs to Star of the County Down?
From: GUEST,Lighter
Date: 29 Jul 15 - 11:28 AM

The resemblance to "Gilderoy" is subtle enough to suggest coincidence.

Few, I think, would call these the "same" tune.


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Subject: RE: Songs to Star of the County Down?
From: GUEST,Lighter
Date: 29 Jul 15 - 11:39 AM

This thread is especially informative:

http://www.mudcat.org/thread.cfm?threadid=35381#3463933


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Subject: RE: Songs to Star of the County Down?
From: GUEST,Dave
Date: 29 Jul 15 - 01:15 PM

There is another thread somewhere in which someone points out that although Vaughan Williams heard The Murder of Maria Marten (not Dives and Lazarus) in Kingsfold, Sussex, the arrangement he used for the tune was derived from Dives and Lazarus as collected by Lucy Broadwood, and Vaughan Williams would already have known this tune, as it was published in 1893.


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