BS: Gloves off - Jews and Catholics at war!

Subject: BS: Gloves off - Jews and Catholics at war!
From: Peter K (Fionn)
Date: 22 Jun 12 - 06:41 AM

Winner takes all?

In view of some of Ratzinger's pronoucements, in his previous incarnation as Prefect for the Inquisition, is Catholic League President Donohue being a trifle over-sensitive?

Subject: RE: BS: Gloves off - Jews and Catholics at war!
From: John on the Sunset Coast
Date: 22 Jun 12 - 10:43 AM

Jews and Catholics at war?

How about this--A Rabbi and a Catholic lay leader have difference of opinion?
This is an overblown story from a source which is neither...in fact not even of any religious persuasion

Subject: RE: BS: Gloves off - Jews and Catholics at war!
From: Jack the Sailor
Date: 22 Jun 12 - 12:35 PM

I think we may need to take the analysis of "The voice of atheism since 1881" on this matter with a pillar of salt.

Subject: RE: BS: Gloves off - Jews and Catholics at war!
From: Q (Frank Staplin)
Date: 22 Jun 12 - 01:09 PM

The pot calling the kettle black.

A pox on them, both would enforce their beliefs on everyone.

Subject: RE: BS: Gloves off - Jews and Catholics at war!
From: MarkS
Date: 22 Jun 12 - 03:12 PM

All Christians are Jews at heart. It is just a matter of how far "refomed" your denomination is.

Subject: RE: BS: Gloves off - Jews and Catholics at war!
From: Don Firth
Date: 22 Jun 12 - 03:37 PM

I think Jesus and Moses are out in the desert somewhere weeping on each other's shoulders.

Don Firth

Subject: RE: BS: Gloves off - Jews and Catholics at war!
From: MGM·Lion
Date: 22 Jun 12 - 04:57 PM

Q ~~ Sorry: wrong! Judaism has never been a proselytising faith, and has never attempted to 'enforce its views' on anyone. On the contrary, indeed, it is idiotically exclusive & prides itself on being "Chosen" among all the others. Those who wish to convert to it for any reason find it heavy going, if admitted at all.

This merely for the sake of accuracy. I don't regard this as a praiseworthy attitude: vain & conceited and stuck-up, in fact. But an accusation of wishing to 'enforce their beliefs on everyone' is just crass ignorance, I regret to say.

~M~

Subject: RE: BS: Gloves off - Jews and Catholics at war!
From: Rapparee
Date: 22 Jun 12 - 06:18 PM

I agree with Don Firth...and I don't see it as a "war" at all. Such language is inflammatory and unnecessary.

Subject: RE: BS: Gloves off - Jews and Catholics at war!
From: GUEST,999
Date: 22 Jun 12 - 07:55 PM

"A pox on them, both would enforce their beliefs on everyone."

Jews do not believe in proselytizing. They don't do that.

Subject: RE: BS: Gloves off - Jews and Catholics at war!
From: JohnInKansas
Date: 22 Jun 12 - 08:43 PM

"A pox on them, both would enforce their beliefs on everyone."

Jews do not believe in proselytizing. They don't do that

But they have demonstrated a preference that everyone else should leave "their" lands, and also a preference that they should acquire more land.

When they have all the land, and all the others have no place to go, can you still say they don't "enforce their beliefs on others?"

You don't have to make everybody be a lawyer to enforce your law, do you?

(Just a bit of curiosity.)

John

Subject: RE: BS: Gloves off - Jews and Catholics at war!
From: GUEST,999
Date: 22 Jun 12 - 10:24 PM

Sorry, John, your request for argument is beneath you, and sure as hell it's beneath me.

Subject: RE: BS: Gloves off - Jews and Catholics at war!
From: Jack the Sailor
Date: 22 Jun 12 - 10:40 PM

Here it is without the Athiestic editorializing. Please, if you must continue this conversation, Speak about what these men have said rather than engaging in broad ugly stereotypes.

Donahue's side.

Rabbi Arthur Waskow's side.

Subject: RE: BS: Gloves off - Jews and Catholics at war!
From: MGM·Lion
Date: 22 Jun 12 - 11:43 PM

John ~~ This thread is about religious beliefs. Attempting to broaden it into political attitudes to justify this accusation of 'enforcing *beliefs* on others' is foolish. We have had no end of threads about the politics of the Middle East. Why try to turn this thread into just another of them when that is no way what it is about?

~M~

Subject: RE: BS: Gloves off - Jews and Catholics at war!
From: Jack the Sailor
Date: 23 Jun 12 - 12:32 AM

This thread is about religious beliefs.

The hell it is. The exchange between those two was totally political.

Subject: RE: BS: Gloves off - Jews and Catholics at war!
From: MGM·Lion
Date: 23 Jun 12 - 01:35 AM

I think not, Jack. At its core is the "sinfulness" or otherwise of contraception. "Sin" is a religious, not a political, concept, surely?

~M~

Subject: RE: BS: Gloves off - Jews and Catholics at war!
From: Joe Offer
Date: 23 Jun 12 - 01:56 AM

Bill Donohoe of the so-called Catholic League represents....Bill Donohoe. I can't understand why news agencies quote Donohoe as a spokesman for the Catholic Church. The man is an idiot, and has no official standing. Donohoe is one of several wealthy, right-wing Catholics who pretend to speak for the Catholic Church. Their wealth may give them credibility with the press, but they have no official voice.

-Joe-

Subject: RE: BS: Gloves off - Jews and Catholics at war!
From: Jack the Sailor
Date: 23 Jun 12 - 10:19 AM

MtheGM

The Catholic Bishops are basically calling Obama "Hitler" because of the Health Care Reform.

The Rabbi is basically calling the Catholic Church islamofascist because they are talking about "religious" freedom" while imposing their own religious views on others. neither of the parties is practicing religion in this case. They are both trying to influence the votes of others. I call that politics.

Subject: RE: BS: Gloves off - Jews and Catholics at war!
From: MGM·Lion
Date: 23 Jun 12 - 11:01 AM

But the "own religious views" you ref to as those the Rabbi doesn't want foisted on him are just that ~~ **religious** views. You might claim a political slant to the attempted influence. They are trying to influence only those votes relating to contraception, which is denounced by the Church as SINFUL ~ a religious, not a political concept, I repeat. Politics, in some sense, play a part in all such controversial transactions: but these particular politics, I say again, are religion-based, predicated on definitions of certain conducts as 'sinful'. No-one can claim there are no politics involved, in this or any other human transactions; but the argument is religiously based, not, as you said, Jack [your very words - see above], 'totally political'.

~M~

Subject: RE: BS: Gloves off - Jews and Catholics at war!
From: Jack the Sailor
Date: 23 Jun 12 - 11:21 AM

Michael. You are in England. Your pedantry is not at all required to conduct a debate over here.

"I might claim." Huh? And YOU are going to correct me?

THEY ARE SAYING THIS CRAP TO GET ROMNEY OR OBAMA ELECTED. You say that is not political? I don't need any more input from you. Thank you.

Subject: RE: BS: Gloves off - Jews and Catholics at war!
From: MGM·Lion
Date: 23 Jun 12 - 12:57 PM

What a charmer you are, as always Jack.

So commune with yourself, my darling boyo.

〠☺〠~M~〠☺〠

Subject: RE: BS: Gloves off - Jews and Catholics at war!
From: Jack the Sailor
Date: 23 Jun 12 - 01:05 PM

Are you saying my only two choice are arguing with you or to "commune" with myself? I don't think your input is needed there either.

But again, Thank you.

Subject: RE: BS: Gloves off - Jews and Catholics at war!
From: MGM·Lion
Date: 23 Jun 12 - 01:52 PM

And who do you imagine yourself to be, to decide whose 'input' the thread needs, you poor benighted bigheaded little booby. Never mind Obama ~~ you running for President, are you? Or for Hitler·of·our·day [check up on Godwin's Law while you're about it, eh?]

Be off with you, bratkin-breeches...

~M~

Oh ~~ and while I remember ~~ you're welcome.

Subject: RE: BS: Gloves off - Jews and Catholics at war!
From: Q (Frank Staplin)
Date: 23 Jun 12 - 02:00 PM

MtheGM- I should have read Rabbi Waskow's piece in the Huffington Post before commenting. He was not pushing beliefs (incidentally I agree with his position as represented by his full comments).

The bit linked by the original poster and his "gloves off" headline led me astray.

Subject: RE: BS: Gloves off - Jews and Catholics at war!
From: Jack the Sailor
Date: 23 Jun 12 - 02:21 PM

The thread is not about religious beliefs. It is about two people having a political argument while using religious buzzwords to bludgeon one another. We also have a third person, a commentator for an Atheist website mocking them as they do so.

There was no discussion of the merits of religious beliefs. In fact Donohue's crack about the Jews "not having many friends" had no religious content at all other than that the group the Rabbi belongs to are called a religion as well as a race and a nation.

That is the point I was making.

I also made a point about ugly broad stereotypes. (Bigotry expressed in this thread)

What I was saying to you is that I don't have the time to debate pointless pedantry with you. If you think that the Rabbi and Donohue were having a religious discussion after what I have said already, nothing I have to say is going to change that. I don't don't need your opinion or input on this matter. And in my opinion neither does anyone else, here on this side of the Atlantic who is actually involved in this election.

That is all I have to say to you on this topic.


Last word to you.

Subject: RE: BS: Gloves off - Jews and Catholics at war!
From: MGM·Lion
Date: 23 Jun 12 - 02:28 PM

Q ~ Noted. Thank you.

Jack ~~ Adieu.

Subject: RE: BS: Gloves off - Jews and Catholics at war!
From: Don(Wyziwyg)T
Date: 23 Jun 12 - 11:01 PM

Must be the time of the month Mike.

Don T.

Subject: RE: BS: Gloves off - Jews and Catholics at war!
From: ollaimh
Date: 24 Jun 12 - 01:14 PM

q he is n ot "pushing his beliefs" he is stating a valid criticism. you are showing your bigotry again.

christians have been enforcing their beliefs on others for centuries, jews don't prothelize, but they can comment.

the conviction of bishop william lynn in pennslyvannia for felony child endangerment, for covering up catholic priests raping children is the beginning of society doing what the corrupt child raping church has refused to do for centuries. clean up its own act and obey the law.

there are on going grand juiy and prosecutatorial investigations in several other american states for child endangerment , conspiracy and forms of racketeering. the american council of bishops has refused to clean up the mess now society is going to do it for them.

there are similar investigation in europe as well. so the happy hunting ground for child rapists and the code to protect them is ending. with it the catholic church is self destructing in many western congregations.

and of course along with the major protestant denominations and the anglicans they were the active partners in the genocide of american native children in residential schools where half of their legal wards died in those schools of deprival of the necessities of life, deprival of the most basic health care and food.

these churches are generational genocidal criminals against humanity.no one will prose\cute for killing native children but at least they are being prosecuteed for endangering other children.

they call it a religion of love but to those oin it's loving embra\ce it looks a lot like hate

Subject: RE: BS: Gloves off - Jews and Catholics at war!
From: Jack the Sailor
Date: 24 Jun 12 - 01:29 PM

ollaimh. You ought to read both of Q's comments before you insult him.

Would you like instructions on how to use the "SHIFT" key? Please note that you have two if one of yours is broken.

Subject: RE: BS: Gloves off - Jews and Catholics at war!
From: Greg F.
Date: 24 Jun 12 - 04:50 PM

But they have demonstrated a preference that everyone else should leave "their" lands...

Those aren't Jews, but Zionists. And they sure as hell ain't the same thing in any way, shape, or form.

Subject: RE: BS: Gloves off - Jews and Catholics at war!
From: Jack the Sailor
Date: 24 Jun 12 - 06:03 PM

They are Jewish Zionists eh? As opposed to the "Christian" ones here supporting Israel to bring about the end times.

Subject: RE: BS: Gloves off - Jews and Catholics at war!
From: Greg F.
Date: 24 Jun 12 - 06:12 PM

End Ttimes, the Rupture, Armageddon & the Race Wars, all of it.

Divisive, bullshit, all of it, "Christian"[sic] fundagelical, right wing Zionist, what have you.

My grandmother was proud of being a member of the Jewish faith and of her Jewish cultural heritage.

She would be appalled at the current Zionist excesses.

Subject: RE: BS: Gloves off - Jews and Catholics at war!
From: Don(Wyziwyg)T
Date: 25 Jun 12 - 11:04 AM

Greg F is right!

The Israeli Zionists, and their supporters world wide, are not representative of any Jews that I have interacted with during my 71 years, of whom there are many.

Don T. (who was once a Catholic)

Subject: RE: BS: Gloves off - Jews and Catholics at war!
From: MGM·Lion
Date: 25 Jun 12 - 11:25 AM

No, indeed; the way Israel has turned out is a grievous disappointment to my generation.

~Michael GM~ (who was once a Jew)

Subject: RE: BS: Gloves off - Jews and Catholics at war!
From: Jack the Sailor
Date: 25 Jun 12 - 12:28 PM

Jewish Zionists the are not as rare as you seem to be saying. They do control the "settlement" policies of the Israeli government.

Subject: RE: BS: Gloves off - Jews and Catholics at war!
From: kendall
Date: 26 Jun 12 - 07:04 AM

I'm reminded of the blind Indians trying to describe an Elephant.

Thank God I'm a Atheist.

Subject: RE: BS: Gloves off - Jews and Catholics at war!
From: Keith A of Hertford
Date: 26 Jun 12 - 07:58 AM

Israel is far from perfect.
Like every other place.
As a regime, I think it much better than its neighbours, Assad's Syria, Mubarak's Egypt. Hamas' Gaza, Ahmadinejad's Iran.

Let's share the hate a bit wider, or not judge Israel in isolation.
It might be a better place were it not under constant threat of annihilation from those neighbours.

Subject: RE: BS: Gloves off - Jews and Catholics at war!
From: Greg F.
Date: 26 Jun 12 - 08:28 AM

"Share The Hate"- now THERE"S a slogan for our times!

Subject: RE: BS: Gloves off - Jews and Catholics at war!
From: ollaimh
Date: 26 Jun 12 - 01:46 PM

and by the way q "the pot calling the kettle black" is considered a rqacisy comment by all the african ethnic people i have ever asked

those kind of knee jerk redneck comments may be ok out there in alberta but not among educated and cultured people

Subject: RE: BS: Gloves off - Jews and Catholics at war!
From: MGM·Lion
Date: 26 Jun 12 - 02:12 PM

Ollaimh ~~ Objections to the old phrase "the pot calling the kettle black", which has no racial overtone but simply refers to a time when both would be hung over an open fire and so become sooty, is somewhat on a par with objections to the word "niggardly" = miserly, which has no relationship of meaning or derivation whatever to another word with which it is not even quite homophonous. You may regard yourself as an 'educated and cultured' person; but not on this semantic evidence, I fear.

~M~

Subject: RE: BS: Gloves off - Jews and Catholics at war!
From: Jack the Sailor
Date: 26 Jun 12 - 02:25 PM

It might be a better place were it not under constant threat of annihilation from those neighbours.

It might not be under constant threat of annihilation if it wasn't trying to colonize its neighbours land.

Subject: RE: BS: Gloves off - Jews and Catholics at war!
From: kendall
Date: 26 Jun 12 - 02:29 PM

There are plenty of "brown" sandwiches to go around.

Subject: RE: BS: Gloves off - Jews and Catholics at war!
From: Keith A of Hertford
Date: 26 Jun 12 - 02:40 PM

It might not be under constant threat of annihilation if it wasn't trying to colonize its neighbours land.

They have never tried to colonise any-one's land Jack.
They did gain some territory from their attackers at each failed attempt to annihilate them, but that is not colonisation and they gave most of it back.

Subject: RE: BS: Gloves off - Jews and Catholics at war!
From: Jack the Sailor
Date: 26 Jun 12 - 02:55 PM

That is not worthy of a reply.

Subject: RE: BS: Gloves off - Jews and Catholics at war!
From: MGM·Lion
Date: 26 Jun 12 - 03:37 PM

What you mean, I fear, Jack, is that you can't think of an effective reply because you know Keith is right. The fact that Israel has turned out by its later behaviour to have been a great disappointment, falling far short of the hopes and ideals of its founders and original worldwide supporters, should not blind anyone to the fact that, by great courage and determination, it defended itself from simultaneous attacks from all sides by all its neighbours on its very foundation; and that most of these neighbours have not given up on this explicit determination to destroy it utterly right up to the present. I know it is behaving appallingly in many ways. But what is it supposed to do in such a situation?

~M~

Subject: RE: BS: Gloves off - Jews and Catholics at war!
From: Jack the Sailor
Date: 26 Jun 12 - 03:46 PM

It has been expanding since European Jews first started moving there in the 1930's the Zionists behind the expansion have been saying that their God will "give" them the land from the Nile to Euphrates since then. The same groups are saying they will not stop the settlements and war until that happens. They continue to expand in spite of treaties and assurance that they will not. What are their neighbours supposed to do in such a situation? Should they do as the Natives of North America did and trust the words of the colonizers and wait for the colonization to be to powerful to stop?

Subject: RE: BS: Gloves off - Jews and Catholics at war!
From: MGM·Lion
Date: 26 Jun 12 - 05:17 PM

What have you been reading, Jack? The Protocols Of The Elders Of Zion? Oh, yes, of course. We've all noticed this 'colonisiation', right thru Egypt & Syria & Jordan, & Saudi & Yemen & Iran & Iraq. Nothing but Israelis busy colonising as far as the eye can see! Wow, unstoppable, these Israelis, aren't they? No wonder they have to keep stoning all these women to make sure they won't be around to be Israeli agents!.

Seriously, Jack ~~ are you on something or what?

Everyone knows that it my principle only ever to express myself moderately on these threads. But, just this once ~~

I don't think I have ever read such a shitload of fucking bollocks in all my days as your last post.

Has anybody? Or can you all see these Israeli hordes busy 'colonising from the Nile to the Euphrates'?

~M~

Subject: RE: BS: Gloves off - Jews and Catholics at war!
From: Ebbie
Date: 26 Jun 12 - 05:19 PM

"the pot calling the kettle black" is considered a rqacisy comment by all the african ethnic people i have ever asked" ollaimh

"Objections to the old phrase "the pot calling the kettle black", which has no racial overtone but simply refers to a time when both would be hung over an open fire and so become sooty," MthGM

Thanks, Michael. "Asking" anyone whether it is a racist comment demonstrates one's own total misunderstanding of its implication. Thank goodness I have never done that! :)

Subject: RE: BS: Gloves off - Jews and Catholics at war!
From: robomatic
Date: 26 Jun 12 - 06:42 PM

Classic case of it's not what you say it's the way that you say it. True in the case of the original pot-stirring article and true in this thread.

Subject: RE: BS: Gloves off - Jews and Catholics at war!
From: Jack the Sailor
Date: 26 Jun 12 - 06:45 PM

Good point robomatic.

Subject: RE: BS: Gloves off - Jews and Catholics at war!
From: kendall
Date: 26 Jun 12 - 07:27 PM

My education is in American history, but, correct me if I'm wrong, didn't the UN take a huge chunk of Palestine and hand it over to the Arabs worst enemy back in 1947?

Subject: RE: BS: Gloves off - Jews and Catholics at war!
From: Jack the Sailor
Date: 26 Jun 12 - 07:49 PM

That is not the way I understand it. But I am not inclined to open that can of worms.

Subject: RE: BS: Gloves off - Jews and Catholics at war!
From: MGM·Lion
Date: 27 Jun 12 - 12:04 AM

Sorry, Jack ~ but you have already quite deliberately opened it, with that fatuous penultimate post of yours.

Subject: RE: BS: Gloves off - Jews and Catholics at war!
From: Don(Wyziwyg)T
Date: 27 Jun 12 - 12:31 PM

Kendall is essentially correct.

Don T.

Subject: RE: BS: Gloves off - Jews and Catholics at war!
From: Jack the Sailor
Date: 27 Jun 12 - 01:05 PM

Were they the Arabs worst enemy at the time? Wasn't there a complex power sharing plan that wasn't implemented by the UN? Didn't the mostly European zionists seize power in 1948 and start kicking the arab speaking natives of Palistine off their land? and which "Arabs" are we talking about? Natives of Arabia? Or all of the varied people of different diverse conquered lands who eventually picked up Arabic as a language?   

The situation is very complicated. The language, because of the history is full of traps.

Subject: RE: BS: Gloves off - Jews and Catholics at war!
From: Stringsinger
Date: 27 Jun 12 - 01:29 PM

Those that say that certain Jews don't proselytize have never heard of AIPAC.

Subject: RE: BS: Gloves off - Jews and Catholics at war!
From: MGM·Lion
Date: 27 Jun 12 - 01:52 PM

Jack ~~ Agree the situation complicated. A complication you appear to have overlooked is that, prior to Allenby's invasion of 1917, about simultaneous with the Balfour Declaration [wiki if you need] followed by the post-WW1 British Mandate of Palestine from the League of Nations, the land in question had not been any sort of Arab state for 500 years, but a part of the Ottoman Empire. Large parts if its previously desert regions had been colonised, from late C19 on, by legal purchase with approval of the legitimate Turkish government, by Jewish pioneers: there had been no Arabs in these parts, because there had been no anybodys there.

The government of Israel, when declared, accepted the UN-resolved land disposal to which you refer in your last post; it was the combined Arab invading neighbours who rejected it, leaving the Israelis in possession by right of conquest, of more of the land than they had bargained for, but which they had of course to continue to occupy for self-protection in case of any more such abortive invasions by aggressive but fortunately inefficient, loot-seeking, Arab hordes.

I suggest you study a bit more of the history of the region; say no more about ambitions of your own imagining to occupy the whole of the land from the Med to the Euphrates or whatever the hell it was; and stop pontificating on a basis of pathetic ignorance.

You are only succeeding in making a fool of yourself!.

Best regards

~M~

Subject: RE: BS: Gloves off - Jews and Catholics at war!
From: MGM·Lion
Date: 27 Jun 12 - 02:23 PM

I would add, on a basis of pathetic, e

Subject: RE: BS: Gloves off - Jews and Catholics at war!
From: MGM·Lion
Date: 27 Jun 12 - 02:24 PM

Don't know what happened there: to resume~~

...on a basis of pathetic, EXPLICITLY ANTISEMITIC, ignorance.

If you don't like that ~~ tough titty!.

Subject: RE: BS: Gloves off - Jews and Catholics at war!
From: Jack the Sailor
Date: 27 Jun 12 - 02:34 PM

MtheGM. I really don't give a rats ass what you think of me. Since you have resorted to insults and CAPITAL LETTER SHOUTING. I'm not even going to bother to read the big post.

Subject: RE: BS: Gloves off - Jews and Catholics at war!
From: Keith A of Hertford
Date: 27 Jun 12 - 02:44 PM

But it is still there Jack, and it contradicts your version of the history.
No challenge will look like acceptance.
Your repeating the old anti Semite libel about Jewish plans to colonise the whole region does look like anti-Semitism.

Subject: RE: BS: Gloves off - Jews and Catholics at war!
From: Jack the Sailor
Date: 27 Jun 12 - 02:50 PM

Keith, You too? Criticizing fanatical Zionists and the expansionist Israeli government makes me against a whole race of people which includes Jewish Israelis and Arabs and most of the rest of the Middle East?
OK, whatever turns you crank.

Subject: RE: BS: Gloves off - Jews and Catholics at war!
From: Stringsinger
Date: 27 Jun 12 - 02:59 PM

Judaism is not a race, it's a religion. It's not even a definable culture since Jews
in various parts of the world would not recognize each other.

Catholicism is not a race, either.

All competing religions have always been at war.

Subject: RE: BS: Gloves off - Jews and Catholics at war!
From: Keith A of Hertford
Date: 27 Jun 12 - 03:39 PM

No, not at all Jack.
Criticising any government is blameless.
Criticising any kind of fanaticism is blameless.
I would dispute your description "expansionist" but it is a widely held and blameless view.

This is the issue.
It has been expanding since European Jews first started moving there in the 1930's
And the Zionists behind the expansion have been saying that their God will "give" them the land from the Nile to Euphrates since then. The same groups are saying they will not stop the settlements and war until that happens.
If you are just criticising a tiny minority of fanatics OK.
If you are accusing Israel of this, that is questionable.

They continue to expand in spite of treaties and assurance that they will not.
How can you justify this.
They have taken no more land since Yom Kippur, and have given vast lands back.
All they have done is settle some of it.

Subject: RE: BS: Gloves off - Jews and Catholics at war!
From: MGM·Lion
Date: 27 Jun 12 - 03:44 PM

Very moderate and restrained of you, Keith, to call Jack's idiocies "questionable". "Half-witted" would be a better description.

~M~

Subject: RE: BS: Gloves off - Jews and Catholics at war!
From: Jack the Sailor
Date: 27 Jun 12 - 04:23 PM

The settlements are expansions. The fences are expansion. Due to international law and the fact they do not want to absorb 4 million non-Jewish Citizens. Israel does not claim the land they settle and annex until the steal it.

Gaza is a defacto concentration camp but the Israel constantly declines to feed and otherwise support the refugees on the land it has claimed by conquest.

Subject: RE: BS: Gloves off - Jews and Catholics at war!
From: Keith A of Hertford
Date: 27 Jun 12 - 05:24 PM

The settlements are a contentious issue, but they are in land held by Israel for decades and taken in a defensive war.
There is no expansion going on, nor any planned outside the West Bank, and only settlements within the West Bank.

Gaza is what it is because of the loathsome regime in power there.
Do you support them?
Jim Carroll even does not.
Israel withdrew from Gaza, removing Jewish settlers by force at gun point.
Gaza has a border with Egypt and was part of Egypt.
Why is it Israel's responsibility to support them?

Subject: RE: BS: Gloves off - Jews and Catholics at war!
From: Jack the Sailor
Date: 27 Jun 12 - 05:34 PM

Take the nicest dog, put it in a cage barely bigger than its body and poke it with a stick for 45 years. Do you think it might growl and nip at its torturers?

Also how does one conquer land in a "defensive war?"

Subject: RE: BS: Gloves off - Jews and Catholics at war!
From: Keith A of Hertford
Date: 28 Jun 12 - 01:18 AM

Your dog analogy could equally apply to Israel as Gaza.
Israel's attitude to Gaza is hostile because its regime seeks the destruction of Israel by its very charter, and it allows deadly attacks on ordinary Jewish families.
It could be different.

Yom Kippur was a defensive war for Israel but when it ended they had pushed back the attackers beyond their start line.

There are many rational criticisms that can be made of Israel.
Why put up irrational ones like claiming they are plotting to take over the whole region?

Subject: RE: BS: Gloves off - Jews and Catholics at war!
From: MGM·Lion
Date: 28 Jun 12 - 01:32 AM

Why, Keith. Because he is Jack the Arisol, that's why! Because he so charmingly doesn't give a "rat's ass" for rational debate.

Why waste your time & intellect trying to argue with such a fatuous frivolous fool? For my part he can crawl up his rat's ass and stay there.

Subject: RE: BS: Gloves off - Jews and Catholics at war!
From: GUEST,999
Date: 28 Jun 12 - 09:11 AM

The Middle East and the way people see it: explained at last.

Subject: RE: BS: Gloves off - Jews and Catholics at war!
From: GUEST,999
Date: 28 Jun 12 - 09:36 AM

Israel/Palestine situation clearly explained in one picture.

Subject: RE: BS: Gloves off - Jews and Catholics at war!
From: Ebbie
Date: 28 Jun 12 - 11:46 AM

May I safely assume, 9, that Quebec's highway system is somewhat convoluted? lol

Subject: RE: BS: Gloves off - Jews and Catholics at war!
From: Jack the Sailor
Date: 28 Jun 12 - 01:03 PM

I would be quite happy if you two "intellectuals" never "debate" me again. Lets just go with the "fact" that Israel is defensively oppressing 4 million people on land that they conquered and because God gave it to them in the Bible, they can do whatever they want on "their land."

Subject: RE: BS: Gloves off - Jews and Catholics at war!
From: Q (Frank Staplin)
Date: 28 Jun 12 - 01:43 PM

Gaza is the concentrated concentration camp but all other Palestinian lands are held hostage by Israel- with borders controlled by Israel and a concentration camp as well. The unstated but obvious objective of the Zionists is to control the entire region.

Many Jews outside Israel hope for a fair solution to the problem, but unless the Israeli government changes course, continued conflict and oppression of the Palestinians is inevitable.

Subject: RE: BS: Gloves off - Jews and Catholics at war!
From: Keith A of Hertford
Date: 28 Jun 12 - 02:42 PM

Jack, if you do not want to debate, do not post provocative, contentious views.
That is what trolls do.

999, I do not think the issue is that complex.
It is highly controversial, and people's opinions tend to be polarised, but the facts are all clear and it is quite recent history.

Q
The unstated but obvious objective of the Zionists is to control the entire region.
Do you mean by Zionist a small minority of fanatics, or the Israeli government, or Israelis?

Subject: RE: BS: Gloves off - Jews and Catholics at war!
From: bobad
Date: 28 Jun 12 - 02:50 PM

Just a reminder to some of the posters on this thread - The Protocols of the Elders of Zion was a hoax, I repeat - a hoax, it was not real, it was a concoction designed to heap hate upon Jews.

Subject: RE: BS: Gloves off - Jews and Catholics at war!
From: Jack the Sailor
Date: 28 Jun 12 - 03:02 PM

Keith,

I do not want to "debate" with you. How can I possibly be more clear? I have seen your endless nit picking contest with Jim Carroll. And i see the closed minded idiotic things that you say.

"It is highly controversial, and people's opinions tend to be polarised, but the facts are all clear and it is quite recent history."

4 million people in refuge camp conditions is irrefutable complexity.

irrefutable
irrefutable
irrefutable

Just pretending that situation does not exist is not "debate" is not argument it is just bold and willful ignorance. There is no debating willful ignorance. Therefor I will not attempt to debate with you.

Subject: RE: BS: Gloves off - Jews and Catholics at war!
From: Keith A of Hertford
Date: 28 Jun 12 - 03:18 PM

Again, if you do not want to debate, why post things that you know will be challenged?
You forgot to say who are the "Zionists" who you say have the "obvious but unstated objective to control the whole region."

Are they a small minority of Jews perhaps comparable to the minority of Muslims who want all Jews killed?
Are they the Israeli government?
Are they just the Israelis?

The numbers in refugee camps is a simple fact.
No complexity.
We could have an interesting discussion about why they have been kept in those camps this last half century, and not by Israel.

Subject: RE: BS: Gloves off - Jews and Catholics at war!
From: GUEST,999
Date: 28 Jun 12 - 03:21 PM

The turn this thread has taken reminds me of a story.

An elderly Jewish man had made a trip daily to the Wailing Wall for over fifty years. A CNN reporter interviewed him. The interviewer said, "Mr Jacobson, have you come here each day for over fifty years?" Mr Jacobson, now in his 80s replied, "Yes I have." She then said, "And what do you pray for?" He replied, "I pray for peace. I pray for Israel. I pray for my neighbours. I pray for Palestinians." The reporter said, "And how does that make you feel?" Mr Jacobson answered, "It makes me feel like I'm talking to a fucking wall."

Amen to that.

Subject: RE: BS: Gloves off - Jews and Catholics at war!
From: Jack the Sailor
Date: 28 Jun 12 - 03:41 PM

Keith,

How can I be clearer?I don't give a rats ass about your challenges. Your challenges are nitpicking nonsense. 4 million refuges on land Israel controls but does not say they own. Irrefutable.

Subject: RE: BS: Gloves off - Jews and Catholics at war!
From: MGM·Lion
Date: 28 Jun 12 - 03:48 PM

The use of the word "intellectual" as a term of abuse invariably places the abuser. Poor old Jack did it, unsurprisingly, 8 posts back.

Subject: RE: BS: Gloves off - Jews and Catholics at war!
From: Jack the Sailor
Date: 28 Jun 12 - 03:50 PM

The word "intellectual" in quotes is a form of mockery apparently undetectable by the ignorant.

Subject: RE: BS: Gloves off - Jews and Catholics at war!
From: Keith A of Hertford
Date: 28 Jun 12 - 04:12 PM

Jack.
First, sorry.
The question about who the "Zionists" are was for Q who made that statement about them.

Second, I do not refute how many refugees there are, but why do you blame Israel?
It is tiny, and the surrounding lands are vast.
There were more refugees who went into tiny Israel than went out of it into those vast lands.
The ones who went in have been settled for decades by the Israelis.
The ones who came out were kept in camps by their brother Arabs.

Why do you blame Israel?
I do give a rat's ass to know what your answer is.
I do not understand how you can pose questions but not want a replies.

Subject: RE: BS: Gloves off - Jews and Catholics at war!
From: Jack the Sailor
Date: 28 Jun 12 - 04:16 PM

Replies are fine. But I don't care much about your replies. Your history precedes you.

Subject: RE: BS: Gloves off - Jews and Catholics at war!
From: Keith A of Hertford
Date: 28 Jun 12 - 05:40 PM

So Jack, you are not interested in debating.
You just hand down pronouncements.

Trembling. a mortal dares to question your pronouncement.
You disdain to reply.
Not because you can't, but because of some supposed "history."

Jack, do not make statements on a public forum if you are not prepared to defend them.

Subject: RE: BS: Gloves off - Jews and Catholics at war!
From: Jack the Sailor
Date: 28 Jun 12 - 06:15 PM

"So Jack, you are not interested in debating."

This is exactly the kind of horse shit I am trying to avoid. I never said that I was not interested in debating. I said that I was not interested in debating with >>>>****YOU!!!****<<<<< You have made the reason for this abundantly clear in just a few posts.

Get this through your stubborn skull. You have made your points. I have made mine. Repeating them unchanged brings no more clarity and will change no minds. You are wasting your time and trying to waste mine. Now bugger off and find someone else to badger.

Subject: RE: BS: Gloves off - Jews and Catholics at war!
From: Keith A of Hertford
Date: 29 Jun 12 - 01:08 AM

I am sorry Jack.
I see the problem now.

You think that debating involves repeating the same points "unchanged."
I agree that would be a pointless exercise.
What I had in mind was responding to each others arguments and trying to counter them or else concede them.

Subject: RE: BS: Gloves off - Jews and Catholics at war!
From: Jack the Sailor
Date: 29 Jun 12 - 01:25 AM

"What I had in mind was responding to each others arguments and trying to counter them or else concede them."

Since you haven't done that so far. I think I will decline your generous offer.

Subject: RE: BS: Gloves off - Jews and Catholics at war!
From: GUEST,999
Date: 29 Jun 12 - 01:59 AM

Well, this argument's over, huh?

Subject: RE: BS: Gloves off - Jews and Catholics at war!
From: Jack the Sailor
Date: 29 Jun 12 - 02:05 AM

He seems to want to argue over whether I should want to argue or not. Its very odd. Like a Monty Python skit without a parrot.

Subject: RE: BS: Gloves off - Jews and Catholics at war!
From: GUEST,999
Date: 29 Jun 12 - 02:15 AM

Keith is a good man, much like you. I like him, much as I do you. Your opinions differ. Such is life. As a btw, I am equally pissed with both of you for allowing an argument to get in the way of a good piece of humour. Neither of you had the decency/wherewithal to note the wailing wall joke. Sheesh. With that, and also the recognition that piss-offed-ness trumps funny, I am leaving. Keep well, both, and remember that the heart may live many times, but the heartless only once.

Subject: RE: BS: Gloves off - Jews and Catholics at war!
From: Keith A of Hertford
Date: 29 Jun 12 - 02:51 AM

Since you haven't done that so far.
I have tried Jack.
You made a point about expansion.
I made a counter point, and you just got angry.
You made a point about defensive wars.
I countered, and you just got angry.
The same with the refugee point.

You make pronouncements but then fold as soon as they are challenged.
You say you don't give a rat's ass about challenges.
I would have liked to debate these issues.

Subject: RE: BS: Gloves off - Jews and Catholics at war!
From: Keith A of Hertford
Date: 29 Jun 12 - 03:06 AM

999, a good one!
Thanks.

A friendly exchange of views with the odd joke thrown in.
If the forum was like that it would not be shrinking away.

Subject: RE: BS: Gloves off - Jews and Catholics at war!
From: MGM·Lion
Date: 29 Jun 12 - 03:12 AM

Keith ~ I say again, you are pissing in the wind trying to dispute with a booby. I am reminded of one of my favourite moments in the novels of one of my my favourite writers, Jane Austen. In Sense & Sensibility, Elinor Dashwood, listening to a sequence of idiotic prejudices mouthed by Mr Robert Ferrars, "made no reply, as she did not consider him worthy of the compliment of rational opposition".

Neither is Jack the Driveller.

~M~

Subject: RE: BS: Gloves off - Jews and Catholics at war!
From: Don(Wyziwyg)T
Date: 29 Jun 12 - 01:03 PM

This all reminds me of the cold war days when organisers of peace conferences were almost driven up the wall by having to sit through days of argument about who sat where, who spoke first and the order of precedence at dinner, before a single word could be spoken about the subject of the conference.

Don T.

Subject: RE: BS: Gloves off - Jews and Catholics at war!
From: Keith A of Hertford
Date: 29 Jun 12 - 01:16 PM

I remember those problems.
In the early NI peace negotiations some parties had to be in separate rooms and communicate by messengers.

Not sure why it is relevant here though.
Jack made some statements but would not elaborate on them because that would be debating with me which he refuses to do.

He wants us to believe that he could substantiate them, but chooses not to.
Of course you could Jack.

Subject: RE: BS: Gloves off - Jews and Catholics at war!
From: Jack the Sailor
Date: 29 Jun 12 - 01:23 PM

Keith. You win. Now bugger off.

999. That joke is nearly as old as that wall. Don't you think I would have heard it before?

Subject: RE: BS: Gloves off - Jews and Catholics at war!
From: GUEST,999
Date: 29 Jun 12 - 02:00 PM

Keith, thank you.

Jack, it just ain't worth the effort.

Subject: RE: BS: Gloves off - Jews and Catholics at war!
From: Jack the Sailor
Date: 29 Jun 12 - 02:06 PM

999 You see, now you don't get my joke.

Here is another.

Do you think I was too subtle the first six or seven times I told Keith I did not want to "debate" with him.

Subject: RE: BS: Gloves off - Jews and Catholics at war!
From: Jack the Sailor
Date: 29 Jun 12 - 02:07 PM

100 Posts!!

25 on topic.

Subject: RE: BS: Gloves off - Jews and Catholics at war!
From: Don(Wyziwyg)T
Date: 30 Jun 12 - 06:12 PM

My point exactly JtS.

The topic gets drowned in a sea of personality clashes.

Oh Well!!
Don T.