Whitby 2012

Subject: RE: Whitby 2012
From: GUEST,Simon Doyle and family
Date: 03 Sep 12 - 07:09 PM

I would like to say a big thank you from The Doyle Family to the people who made the very nice comments on this thread about me and my family, i have replyed to a few and i just like to add of those i have missed out thank you.

All the best

Simon and family

Subject: RE: Whitby 2012
From: Northerner
Date: 03 Sep 12 - 07:21 PM

That's fine, Simon, thank you. Currently I am day tripping to the festival so I don't get to see every performer each year. HopefuLly I will see you perform again next year.

Diane Taylor

Subject: RE: Whitby 2012
From: Northerner
Date: 04 Sep 12 - 02:08 AM

Could a moderator look at Guest's post please and remove it? It reads like discrimination and should not be tolerated by Mudcatters.

Subject: RE: Whitby 2012
From: GUEST,Simon Doyle and family
Date: 04 Sep 12 - 03:07 AM

This is for the guest who has said that my chirldren who are out busking that it is child labour?

you also said that they look like they dont enjoy it = You cant keep smiling all of the time when you are trying to concentrate on the tunes you are playing especially when you are at a young age and in front of thousands of people aswell.

maybe you dint know this because you might not play an instrument.

And back to your child labour cliam = my chirldren are out trying to build up the confidence in performing for when they are older and if along the way they are lucky enough to make a bit of money this will go towards a full set of Uilleann pipes which from a reputle maker will cost in the regin of £7500 for each full set.

p.s why dont you check out the all ireland Fleadh there are hundreds of chirldren out busking in the streets so it is not unusual.

Simon

Subject: RE: Whitby 2012
From: GUEST,Alf & Mrs Alf
Date: 04 Sep 12 - 03:42 AM

We had a great time @ Whitby. Saw lots of Morris heard lovely music & singing & met Spot again :-)

Subject: RE: Whitby 2012
From: The Sandman
Date: 04 Sep 12 - 04:36 AM

I have never had the pleasure of metting Jack Campin in person, if i did I probably would not waste a pint of bitter over his head.
however on previous threads [one in particular] that concerned Roy Harris, I found his comments objectionable, so I am not surprised that he is still making remarks that are upsetting other people.

Subject: RE: Whitby 2012
From: banjoman
Date: 04 Sep 12 - 05:32 AM

We stopped to listen to the young lads playing near the bridge and were really impressed. Never gave a thought to where they were from or their families. They were just 2 young people who were obviously enjoying themselves and bringing a lot of pleasure to those passing by. Well done.

Subject: RE: Whitby 2012
From: The Sandman
Date: 04 Sep 12 - 06:16 AM

its amazing if you sing and you look unhappy you get criticised, if you sing and you look happy you get criticised.
what should be important is the music not whether someone is smiling, what mattere s is the quality of the music, its should be about content not form.
this music is not pop music, image is irrelevant, jack campin clearly cares about his own music and spends a lot of time playing practising reseraching,
in my opinion he should forget his prejudices and just judge on the standard of the music

Subject: RE: Whitby 2012
From: Lynn W
Date: 04 Sep 12 - 06:19 AM

Most of the anti- Doyle posts on this thread seem to come from people who haven't considered that the Doyles come from a tradition which places extremely high value on family ties, respect for elders, hospitality, politeness and music/entertainment (which is how many of them get their living). So posts criticising their parenting style or showmanship are going to carry overtones of prejudice whether intended or not. In informal sessions the girls seem to enjoy playing music with their dad, and if you've heard the tale about how the unusual fiddle was acquired you'll know that they have minds of their own. This is not the place to be criticising other people's family set-up so I hope the discussion can die down now. Best of luck to the Doyles.

Subject: RE: Whitby 2012
From: GUEST
Date: 04 Sep 12 - 06:44 AM

I don't usually bother to look at mudcat and, having had my attention drawn to this thread, I now know why. Open forums allow access to cranks like Jack Campin who would be ignored or ridiculed in any other walk of life. You really should find some way of editing out the loonies so that decent folk like Simon Doyle can get on with making their magic music without having to waste their time defending themselves against such twaddle.

Subject: RE: Whitby 2012
From: GUEST
Date: 04 Sep 12 - 07:36 AM

I don't usually bother to look at mudcat and, having had my attention drawn to this thread, I now know why. Open forums allow access to cranks like Jack Campin who would be ignored or ridiculed in any other walk of life. You really should find some way of editing out the loonies so that decent folk like Simon Doyle can get on with making their magic music without having to waste their time defending themselves against such twaddle.

Precisely my position.

Mudcat cannot do this with any consistency because it has tolerated too many for too long.

Subject: RE: Whitby 2012
From: GUEST,chris
Date: 04 Sep 12 - 09:21 AM

Guest,   I note part of your comment with dismay!   The use of the word "loonies" is also a discriminatory and dispectful term.   Although I totally understand and agree with the level of disgust directed towards Jack Campin`s thread, you have also offended people with your remark.   Given the genre we are so interested in, should be not also be aware of the power of words?

Subject: RE: Whitby 2012
From: Jack Campin
Date: 04 Sep 12 - 09:23 AM


You will find that at Mudcat racist and bigotted remarks like those made by Mr. Campion don't go unchallenged.

What racist comments? I expected to get music that came out of a specific Traveller tradition (as I am used to it in Scotland, e.g. from hearing Sheila Stewart on many occasions and from knowing Duncan Williamson towards the end of his life). Didn't get anything like that: generic Irish session music played in the same way lots of people do it (except that Simon Doyle never let his kids take the lead at all - maybe one day I'll get to hear them on their own).

And considering you've been posting on the same threads as me for at least ten years, you might spell my name right. Unlike you I'm not hiding behind a pseudonym.

Subject: RE: Whitby 2012
From: Stilly River Sage
Date: 04 Sep 12 - 09:42 AM

If I used my own name no one would know who was talking. It's easier for people if I stay with the same moniker after a dozen years. And it is probably easier for you to shoot the messenger than address the issue of the charge others made against your review, of racism. If your original comment had been more complete the complaint might never have been made.

SRS

Subject: RE: Whitby 2012
From: GUEST,Simon Doyle and family
Date: 04 Sep 12 - 11:08 AM

To campin

you say irish session music! clearly you have no understanding of the style of which irish travellers play in, and that just go's to show you know nothing about the history and music of the irish travellers

as you said you are used to hearing scottish traveller music and song which is very beautifull wich i may say so myself.

as you said at the start of the sentance after the comment in brackets = Didn't get anything like that:

There is a difference but you plain and simply don't know this!

As for generic irish session music played in the same way lots of people do it = let me make this plain and simple for you (with the best of repect for all the irish musicians out there)

There is no one who plays the Button Accordion, Tennor Banjo, Irish Fiddle OR the Uilleann Pipes in the same style as me and my family do, the only people that have played in the same style and still do is my family.

so you see campin you don't know what you are talking about, maybe you might have an idea about the lovelly music and song from Scotlands travellers but please deffinatly do not try and school me on my background or where my music has come from.

As for you saying i never let my chirldren take the leed your a bare faced liar, they took the leed in the travellers concert when the banjo started first then the accordion joined in then fiddle and pipes, and also at the Hoolie my chirldren played a full three tuned set themselves, and also at the spa theatre with banjo and pipes on the slow air.

So campin on this thread you are trying to give the impression to others that you know all about the Irish Travellers Music but I AM telling you now that YOU DO NOT.

Then you have the ordassidy to say may be you'll get the chance to hear my family play for you! Whats with you are you living in cukoo land or what?

Act your age

Simon & Family

Don't ever call me and my family ''DuDs'' Again

Subject: RE: Whitby 2012
From: The Sandman
Date: 04 Sep 12 - 11:31 AM

jack campin, you are making yourself look silly,I suggest you stop digging before you get through to australia., campin for god sake put a sock in it.

Subject: RE: Whitby 2012
From: Paul Davenport
Date: 04 Sep 12 - 12:20 PM

Liz and I were delighted to share a stage with the Doyle family back in 2011 at WFW. They were good fun and as well brought up a family as we have met in a long time. I'm astonished that such a lovely group of kids and their Dad should have been the subject such a discussion. With regard to performance they are a family playing together with no pretensions to be a sort of Bellowhead. I for one enjoy hearing how the family dynamic works (Simon facilitates but does not direct by the way) and how the lads and lasses develop their music. I wish them all well.
Jack's comment is, to put it gently, a trifle insensitive in my opinion.

Subject: RE: Whitby 2012
From: The Sandman
Date: 04 Sep 12 - 12:52 PM

."Jack's comment is, to put it gently, a trifle insensitive in my opinion."
that must be the understatement of the year

Subject: RE: Whitby 2012
From: johncharles
Date: 04 Sep 12 - 01:23 PM

An argument which is of little benefit to either side and a thread which should end now.
john

Subject: RE: Whitby 2012
From: GUEST
Date: 04 Sep 12 - 02:40 PM

Good grief, one man makes a comment to say he didn't appreciate one act, he then goes on to comment about the "lead" of that act and his perceived attitude to the other members of the group who were playing (his children).

No "RACISM" no "HATRED" in fact no mention of the background of the performers at all.

Then the slighted party retorts with what can only be termed a "rant" and a lot of you back the guy who lost his temper.

I have not seen Simon Doyle and his family , although I did listen to the two young lads playing pipes by the bridge in Whitby. However what I have read on this site will deter me from ever going to listen to them.

Something Mr Doyle may want to bear in mind when responding to a slight criticism on a public forum is that it cuts both ways and although you may disagree with Jack Campin's views he has a right to make them in the same way as you have a right to follow the life you do.

Subject: RE: Whitby 2012
From: GUEST
Date: 04 Sep 12 - 02:57 PM

O gosh you make it sound so easy and harmless on Mr.Campins part,
and for someone to say they would not go to listen to them for what they have read on this thread, i think it is very imature.

Subject: RE: Whitby 2012
From: Steve Gardham
Date: 04 Sep 12 - 03:13 PM

GUEST,
If you don't want to join then at least add your name.

'didn't appreciate one act', 'slight criticism' is rather understating in view of the terms used.

Jack's second criticisms were admirably answered by Simon, without 'ranting'. How anyone can relate 2 completely different traveller traditions in this way is beyond me.

Subject: RE: Whitby 2012
From: Steve Gardham
Date: 04 Sep 12 - 03:49 PM

I strongly recommend anyone read the first 28 posts on this thread, and stop there.

Subject: RE: Whitby 2012
From: GUEST,Ebor_Fiddler
Date: 05 Sep 12 - 01:43 PM

I'd just like to add my two pennorth in, I hope, an unhurtful manner.
1) I didn't find Keith Donnelly's performance at the Music Hall night funny at all, because I didn't understand it and I did't think this was a suitable act on which to end. But a lot of people there would have disagreed with me strongly! My opinion is only personal.
2) "The lads by the bridge" were well up to their usual standard. Until the fracas above, I had no idea who they were, but I shall look forward to hearing them again!

Love and Fishes,

Chris

Subject: RE: Whitby 2012
From: GUEST,CCS
Date: 06 Sep 12 - 04:54 AM

What a bitter end to a fantastic Whitby Week. Get back to the positive stuff, this is boring!

Subject: RE: Whitby 2012
From: dick greenhaus
Date: 06 Sep 12 - 09:01 PM

I haven't heard the Doyle Family, and I have no dog in this fight.
I'm disappointed that a bit of negative criticism of any performer is considered to be unacceptable.Especially one which is more or less specific. A public person lays himself open to such.

Subject: RE: Whitby 2012
From: The Sandman
Date: 07 Sep 12 - 03:31 AM

sorry Dick,
criticism is fine when it is constructive , but it was not even criticism of the music, the criticism was based on, the critic was assuming that one of the members was a control freak,he was assuming that the performers smiles were fake,he did not know the people personally he was jumping to conclusions this is not acceptable. Jack remarks tel us more about the mood he was in, than the performers music thse remarks are close to libellous.
I have not seen these performers but i would not jump to conclusions and make remarks about control freaks. but this is typical of so much folk reviews and folk criticism which is amatuerish, and too often bitchy, and seems to be too often an excuse for the critic to pour forth his own bad mood, performers like myself and the doyle family are expectyed to be professional meanwhile we have to put up with this amaturish criticism, Irepeat ..
criticism of the music is fine if it is constructive, but this was not even criticism of the music.

Subject: RE: Whitby 2012
From: The Sandman
Date: 07 Sep 12 - 03:34 AM

jack campin said this...It wasn't Simon Doyle's music I disliked so much as the posing and the patriarchal control-freakery.
that in my opinion is completely out of order

Subject: RE: Whitby 2012
From: Jack Campin
Date: 07 Sep 12 - 05:34 AM

How anyone can relate 2 completely different traveller traditions in this way is beyond me.

The Scottish tradition I mentioned is quite clearly a distinct and identifiable one - different versions of songs, stories and tunes from the way other people do them, different style, different kinds of transmission from what you get in other kinds of Scottish traditional music.

(I have also encountered Gypsy folk music first-hand in Romania, and that's a great deal more different from the surrounding Romanian and Hungarian mainstream, but not so relevant here).

I'd never heard of the group before and knew only what the Folk Week programme told me.

So, given that blurb, I was expecting something clearly different from the kind of Irish music you might have heard every day at the Ship. Different versions, different back stories, different performance style. Something I hadn't heard before.

There may well be such a distinct kind of traveller music within the Irish tradition, but if so I didn't hear it at the concert I went to, or from the Doyles busking.

Is that clear enough?

Did YOU hear anything you could point to as distinctively Traveller in origin, unlike any other Irish music? If so, what was it?

Subject: RE: Whitby 2012
From: The Sandman
Date: 07 Sep 12 - 08:34 AM

jack, I am objecting to your remarks posing and patriarchal control freakery, you owe the doyles an apology.
the best thing you can do in future is think before opening your mouth or maybe do not open you mouth.
this kind of pre judgement reminds me of the rubbish Strawhead had to put up with years ago, about them being fascists.

Subject: RE: Whitby 2012
From: GUEST
Date: 07 Sep 12 - 08:38 AM

campin

This is the last comment from Simon Doyle & Family.

quote this sentance from you = There may well be such a distinct kind of traveller music within the Irish tradition, but if so I didn't hear it at the concert I went to, or from the Doyles busking. Is that clear enuogh?


As there is a very distinct Traveller style within the Irish traditional music, you have clearly stated that you havn't heard it before from saying 'there may well be' so how can you say you didn't hear it at the concert you went to if you havn't heard it before?????

As at the Travellers concert we played very old tunes from our background that i learned from my parents and also from my gradparents that was past down to us. (ie slow airs, tunes from very old travellers songs, really old lovelley jigs that were played and passed down from genaration to genaration, tunes I composed myself)

And also there were tunes played I learned from Pecker Dunne, Margaret Barry, The Fureys, Paddy Keenan amongst tunes from my own family.

As Jerry most kindley pointed out above as to the style me and my family play in.

And as to make a comment about two little boys busking at the bridge = 'or from the Doyles busking' yes there were some tunes that people new but there were also a lot of tunes played that people didn't know aswell that are from our tradition,

but you see campin you are starting to pick on two little boys aged 10 & 11 years old now arn't you!

but i'll tell you what! you should be very proud of yourself.

but of course i do remember you now you were in the ship pub the day i was there and you came out with a ignorant snide remark to me and all the musicians just look at you discussed.

Now to finish this of as you said as part of your comment!

Is That Clear Enough.

p.s me & the family just of now to catch flight to U.S to perform in a Travellers Concert

Subject: RE: Whitby 2012
From: GUEST,Simon Doyle & Family
Date: 07 Sep 12 - 08:42 AM

The last comment was from Simon Doyle & Family.

Thanks to everyone for the nice comments.

Subject: RE: Whitby 2012
From: Northerner
Date: 07 Sep 12 - 12:18 PM

Enjoy your concert in the States! What an education for our family! When you come back perhaps you could tell us about it? In a different thread of course.

Diane Taylor

Subject: RE: Whitby 2012
From: Northerner
Date: 07 Sep 12 - 12:25 PM

Oops! Typo in last post. Should have been "your family."

Subject: RE: Whitby 2012
From: GUEST,sturgeon
Date: 07 Sep 12 - 12:49 PM

I see from Jack Campin's home page that he plays those highly traditional instruments the recorder, washboard and clarinet, and has a subsidiary page devoted to his cats. I certainly wouldn't want to spend more than a micro-second in his company.

http://www.campin.me.uk/MusicPhotos/Bells/sandy-bells1.jpg

Subject: RE: Whitby 2012
From: The Sandman
Date: 07 Sep 12 - 12:57 PM

there is a distinct style amongst irish travellers, Iam not a great expert on this subject, but I do know a distinct style of tenor banjo playing using a thimble is one example, john keenan was an example,
I understand there is a style of uillean piping, examples of this were johnny doran, and more latterly, paddy keenan, i think it is called the open style, as against the closed style as used by liam o flynn.

Subject: RE: Whitby 2012
From: Northerner
Date: 07 Sep 12 - 03:23 PM

I've actually met Jack Campin. A few years ago I made quite a few trips to Edinburgh to go to workshops at the Scottish Storytelling Centre. I went along to Sandy Bell's a few times; I only had an egg shaker but I still had a whale of a time. In the interests of fairness I will say that Jack Campin was friendly and helpful.

Subject: RE: Whitby 2012
From: The Sandman
Date: 07 Sep 12 - 03:48 PM

That is not the point, he made a criticism not based on the performers music and called them duds...fact

Subject: RE: Whitby 2012
From: Northerner
Date: 07 Sep 12 - 04:16 PM

Yes, I know. Even if he was disappointed by Doyle family performances he shouldn't have made comments against them of a more personal nature.

Subject: RE: Whitby 2012
From: GUEST,wyrdolafr
Date: 07 Sep 12 - 04:23 PM

Good Soldier Schweik, yeah, he did call them "duds". A bit harsh perhaps. That said, I'm still curious as to how this, or anything else he said here, amounts to 'racism'. That's not been really explained at all.

Subject: RE: Whitby 2012
From: John MacKenzie
Date: 07 Sep 12 - 04:26 PM

All personal and subjective Dick. The man's entitled to his viewpoint, same as you or I. You are welcome to disagree with his views, or his way of expressing them.
What you are not welcome to do is suppress him, that's censorship.

Subject: RE: Whitby 2012
From: The Sandman
Date: 07 Sep 12 - 04:47 PM

when have I am tried to to suppress him,I do not have the poweron this forum or anywhere else to do that
I am criticising his criticisms which were not based on their music, he is out of order when he calls someone a control freak, when he does not know them personally, criticisms of musical performers should be based on their music not on some fantasy that someone is a control freak who may be exploiting his family.
this is the problem with a good proportion of reviewers on the folk scene, they talk crap, this is just another example, he called them duds, and then says it was not their music he disliked so much as the patriarchal control freakery.his words..It wasn't Simon Doyle's music I disliked so much as the posing and the patriarchal control-freakery.
by the way guest wyrdofalr, i have not called anyone racist.

Subject: RE: Whitby 2012
From: selby
Date: 07 Sep 12 - 04:52 PM

Does anyone else apart from me that this is not helpful to anyone?
Keith

Subject: RE: Whitby 2012
From: John MacKenzie
Date: 07 Sep 12 - 05:29 PM

As I said Dick, it's his personal view, and he has a right to express it. You and I have the same right, to disagree with his point of view, and/or his means of expressing it.
Nuff sed.

Subject: RE: Whitby 2012
From: selby
Date: 07 Sep 12 - 06:19 PM

Whilst everyone is entitled to his or her view this thread sits under Whitby 2012 in my opinion this is not helping Whitby 2013 . I also believe it is good to have healthy discussion this discussion is not helping Mudcat and UK folk music. The discussion has left good discussion and become to personal .
I watched the two young lads piping near the bridge my opinion when i saw them in the future they will be awesome they also have charm and a deep interest in their type of music. anyone with boys the age of these two will know if lads of this age don't want to do it they will pay lip service and then do their own thing so follow on comments are just mischief. The sub title of Whitby is traditional folk festival their are acts appearing I do not like and their acts I like who others do not but I use my feet not my mouth as I am sure many others do
I have attended Whitby folk festival for many years and feel what is happening here is not beneficial to something I feel strongly about.
Keith

Subject: RE: Whitby 2012
From: Stilly River Sage
Date: 07 Sep 12 - 08:33 PM

If the person who started the thread wants to change the title and start a new Whitby thread, you could do that, and leave the musical slug-fest behind here. But what would this one be called? Plus, the momentum for posting may be past.

I believe I owe Jack Campin an apology - I edited my remarks above to remove the characterization I'd picked up from another writer. Since I don't know any of the parties and was simply stepping in to suggest toning down some of the remarks, it didn't help to push that loaded description further along down the thread.

SRS

Subject: RE: Whitby 2012
From: The Sandman
Date: 08 Sep 12 - 01:27 AM

when I read about the Doyle family busking in Whitby, I thought what a positive thing to do, it reminds non folk visitors that there is a Folk Festival, it adds to the atmosphere they should be praised for this and for doing extra unscheduled playing.
John, he does not, neither does anyone else have a right to make libellous remarks[patriarchal control freakery], criticisms should be about music, they should not be based on uninformed assumptions, or whether someone is gay or a transsexual or any other non musical thing, there is freedom of speech there is also a law of libel.

Subject: RE: Whitby 2012
From: Steve Gardham
Date: 08 Sep 12 - 12:57 PM

Simon has called a halt to all this and several people have expressed the wish to end this discussion as being of benefit to no-one and I agree. Whitby was and is always fantastic, something for everyone, hundreds of events covering things that can only be done at a weeklong festival. It is vital that we all support this. Too many similar festivals in the area are going under for various reasons.

A massive thankyou to all of the organisers and supporters.

Subject: RE: Whitby 2012
From: The Sandman
Date: 08 Sep 12 - 02:08 PM

Of Course the festival is very good, I first went there in 1974, and have been booked to perform at the festival a number of times.
The Doyle Family have a positive approach getting out and playing music on the streets letting folk visitors know that a festival is going on, adding atmosphere to the town, they should be congratulated, well done The Doyles

Subject: RE: Whitby 2012
From: Betsy
Date: 08 Sep 12 - 07:48 PM

The Doyles have closed their comments , so we should really all respect their intent, no matter how much we we would all like to get our own twopenny-worth. The thread tille is "Whitby 2012" and surely what has occurred in this thread is not what people want to read.Why don't we ask the Moderator / Joe Offer ? to close this one off - and if someone wishes to start new threads i.e. My Whitby 2012 or a separate Thread "The Doyles" and then maybe we can all get back to opening Mudact threads- which mean what they say.
Good Luck all Betsy