BS: Are Israeli leaders complete arseholes?

Subject: RE: BS: Are Israeli leaders complete arseholes?
From: Keith A of Hertford
Date: 26 Nov 12 - 05:00 PM

I understand that you all want to move away from the specific case of Gaza, because you can not make a case over Gaza.

Fine, but I am not discussing any other topic on this thread.
Start a new one and I wil gladly debate any issue with you.

Subject: RE: BS: Are Israeli leaders complete arseholes?
From: mayomick
Date: 26 Nov 12 - 05:03 PM

Keith. Once again , the borders were not agreed in 49 .

The 1949 Egyptian-Israeli Armistice agreement stated:

"The Armistice Demarcation Line is not to be construed in any sense as a political or territorial boundary, and is delineated without prejudice to rights, claims and positions of either Party to the Armistice as regards ultimate settlement of the Palestine question."

Subject: RE: BS: Are Israeli leaders complete arseholes?
From: Don(Wyziwyg)T
Date: 26 Nov 12 - 05:16 PM

Lox that is simply appalling, and I'm tempted to break the one page rule and copy/paste the whole thing.

In fact, if Keith & Co don't take the trouble to read it, or if they try to claim it is all lies, I damn well will do so.

I'd like some comment from the "Israel is merely defending itself" brigade, bearing in mind that US and UK troops have been tried and punished for similar actions.

Don T.

Subject: RE: BS: Are Israeli leaders complete arseholes?
From: mayomick
Date: 26 Nov 12 - 05:21 PM

You can check the Armistice Agreement lodged with the UN here:
http://unispal.un.org/UNISPAL.NSF/0/9EC4A332E2FF9A128525643D007702E6
Convention générale d'armistice entre Israël et l'Egypte
Here are the relevant articles ,1V and V

Article IV

With specific reference to the implementation of the resolutions of the Security Council of 4 and 16 November 1948, the following principles and purposes are affirmed:

1. The principle that no military or political advantage should be gained under the truce ordered by the Security Council is recognized.

2. It is also recognized that the basic purposes and spirit of the Armistice would not be served by the restoration of previously held military positions, changes from those now held other than as specifically provided for in this Agreement, or by the advance of the military forces of either side beyond positions held at the time this Armistice Agreement is signed.

3. It is further recognized that rights, claims or interests of a non-military character in the area of Palestine covered by this Agreement may be asserted by either Party, and that these, by mutual agreement being excluded from the Armistice negotiations, shall be, at the discretion of the Parties, the subject of later settlement. It is emphasized that it is not the purpose of this Agreement to establish, to recognize, to strengthen, or to weaken or nullify, in any way, any territorial, custodial or other rights, claims or interests which may be asserted by either Party in the area of Palestine or any part or locality thereof covered by this Agreement, whether such asserted rights, claims or interests derive from Security Council resolutions, including the resolution of 4 November 1948 and the Memorandum of 13 November 1948 for its implementation, or from any other source. The provisions of this Agreement are dictated exclusively by military considerations and are valid only for the period of the Armistice.

Article V

1. The line described in Article VI of this Agreement shall be designated as the Armistice Demarcation Line and is delineated in pursuance of the purpose and intent of the resolutions of the Security Council of 4 and 16 November 1948.

2. The Armistice Demarcation Line is not to be construed in any sense as a political or territorial boundary, and is delineated without prejudice to rights, claims and positions of either Party to the Armistice as regards ultimate settlement of the Palestine question.

3. The basic purpose of the Armistice Demarcation Line is to delineate the line beyond which the armed forces of the respective Parties shall not move except as provided in Article III of this Agreement.

4. Rules and regulations of the armed forces of the Parties, which prohibit civilians from crossing the fighting lines or entering the area between the lines, shall remain in effect after the signing of this Agreement with application to the Armistice Demarcation Line defined in Article VI.

Subject: RE: BS: Are Israeli leaders complete arseholes?
From: Don(Wyziwyg)T
Date: 26 Nov 12 - 05:26 PM

November 25, 2012

"There is no country on Earth that would tolerate missiles raining down on its citizens from outside its borders," President Barack Obama said at a press conference last week. He drew on this general observation in order to justify Operation Pillar of Defense, Israel's most recent military campaign in the Gaza Strip. In describing the situation this way, he assumes, like many others, that Gaza is a political entity external and independent of Israel. This is not so. It is true that Israel officially disengaged from the Gaza Strip in August 2005, withdrawing its ground troops and evacuating the Israeli settlements there. But despite the absence of a permanent ground presence, Israel has maintained a crushing control over Gaza from that moment until today.

The testimonies of Israeli army veterans expose the truth of that "disengagement." Before Operation Pillar of Defense, after all, Israel launched Operations Summer Rains and Autumn Clouds in 2006, and Hot Winter and Cast Lead in 2008 -- all involving ground invasions. In one testimony, a veteran speaks of "a battalion operation" in Gaza that lasted for five months, where the soldiers were ordered to shoot "to draw out terrorists" so they "could kill a few."

    Israeli naval blockades stop Gazans from fishing, a main source of food in the Strip. Air blockades prevent freedom of movement. Israel does not allow building materials into the area, forbids exports to the West Bank and Israel, and (other than emergency humanitarian cases) prohibits movement between the Gaza Strip and the West Bank. It controls the Palestinian economy by periodically withholding import taxes. Its restrictions have impeded the expansion and upgrading of the Strip's woeful sewage infrastructure, which could render life in Gaza untenable within a decade. The blocking of seawater desalination has turned the water supply into a health hazard. Israel has repeatedly demolished small power plants in Gaza, ensuring that the Strip would have to continue to rely on the Israeli electricity supply. Daily power shortages have been the norm for several years now. Israel's presence is felt everywhere, militarily and otherwise.

    By relying on factual misconceptions, political leaders, deliberately or not, conceal information that is critical to our understanding of events. Among the people best qualified to correct those misconceptions are the individuals who have been charged with executing a state's policies -- in this case, Israeli soldiers themselves, an authoritative source of information about their government's actions. I am a veteran of the Israeli Defense Forces (IDF), and I know that our first-hand experiences refute the assumption, accepted by many, including President Obama, that Gaza is an independent political entity that exists wholly outside Israel. If Gaza is outside Israel, how come we were stationed there? If Gaza is outside Israel, how come we control it? Oded Na'aman

    [The testimonies by Israeli veterans that follow are taken from 145 collected by the nongovernmental organization Breaking the Silence and published in Our Harsh Logic: Israeli Soldiers' Testimonies From the Occupied Territories, 2000-2010. Those in the book represent every division in the IDF and all locations in the West Bank and the Gaza Strip.]

More to follow.

Don T.

Subject: RE: BS: Are Israeli leaders complete arseholes?
From: Don(Wyziwyg)T
Date: 26 Nov 12 - 05:30 PM

1. House Demolition
Unit: Kfir Brigade
Location: Nablus district
Year: 2009

During your service in the territories, what shook you up the most?
The searches we did in Hares. They said there are sixty houses that have to be searched. I thought there must have been some information from intelligence. I tried to justify it to myself.
You went out as a patrol?
It was a battalion operation. They spread out over the whole village, took over the school, smashed the locks, the classrooms. One was used as the investigation room for the Shin Bet, one room for detainees, one for the soldiers to rest. We went in house by house, banging on the door at two in the morning. The family's dying of fear, the girls are peeing in their pants with fear. We go into the house and turn everything upside down.
What's the procedure?
Gather the family in a certain room, put a guard there, tell the guard to aim his gun at them, and then search the rest of the house. We got another order that everyone born after 1980... everyone between sixteen and twenty-nine, doesn't matter who, bring them in cuffed and blindfolded. They yelled at old people, one of them had an epileptic seizure but they carried on yelling at him. Every house we went into, we brought everyone between sixteen and twenty-nine to the school. They sat tied up in the schoolyard.
Did they tell you the purpose of all this?
To locate weapons. But we didn't find any weapons. They confiscated kitchen knives. There was also stealing. One guy took twenty shekels. Guys went into the houses and looked for things to steal. This was a very poor village. The guys were saying, "What a bummer, there's nothing to steal."
That was said in a conversation among the soldiers?
Yeah. They enjoyed seeing the misery, the guys were happy talking about it. There was a moment someone yelled at the soldiers. They knew he was mentally ill, but one of the soldiers decided that he'd beat him up anyway, so they smashed him. They hit him in the head with the butt of the gun, he was bleeding, then they brought him to the school along with everyone else. There were a pile of arrest orders signed by the battalion commander, ready, with one area left blank. They'd fill in that the person was detained on suspicion of disturbing the peace. They just filled in the name and the reason for arrest. There were people with plastic handcuffs that had been put on really tight. I got to speak with the people there. One of them had been brought into Israel to work for a settler and after two months the guy didn't pay him and handed him over to the police.
All these people came from that one village?
Yes.
Anything else you remember from that night?
A small thing, but it bothered me -- one house that they just destroyed. They have a dog for weapons searches, but they didn't bring him; they just wrecked the house. The mother watched from the side and cried. Her kids sat with her and stroked her.
What do you mean, they just destroyed the house?
They smashed the floors, turned over sofas, threw plants and pictures, turned over beds, smashed the closets, the tiles. There were other things -- the look on the people's faces when you go into their house. And after all that, they were left tied up and blindfolded in the school for hours. The order came to free them at four in the afternoon. So that was more than twelve hours. There were investigators from the security services there who interrogated them one by one.
Had there been a terrorist attack in the area?
No. We didn't even find any weapons. The brigade commander claimed that the Shin Bet did find some intelligence, that there were a lot of guys there who throw stones.

Comments?.........or do you need more?

Don T.

Subject: RE: BS: Are Israeli leaders complete arseholes?
From: GUEST,999
Date: 26 Nov 12 - 06:06 PM

I don't doubt that at all, Don. Bad shit happens in war and warfare. I was about to PM you and I'll now do so. The IDF cannot be whitewashed in this any more than can the various groups who attack Israelis.

Subject: RE: BS: Are Israeli leaders complete arseholes?
From: Lox
Date: 26 Nov 12 - 06:34 PM

Yes - Very upsetting.

I was sent that link by Miko Peled who is a friend of mine.

I feel its important to spend more time listening to my Israeli friends than to bother about non Israelis who worry about alleged anti Israeli sentiment.

Subject: RE: BS: Are Israeli leaders complete arseholes?
From: Steve Shaw
Date: 26 Nov 12 - 06:53 PM

"There is no country on Earth that would tolerate missiles raining down on its citizens from outside its borders," President Barack Obama said at a press conference last week. He drew on this general observation in order to justify Operation Pillar of Defense, Israel's most recent military campaign in the Gaza Strip.

In that case, surely the day is imminent that Pakistan retaliates against the US, considering the death, destruction and misery caused by those unmanned drone attacks from outside its borders...

Subject: RE: BS: Are Israeli leaders complete arseholes?
From: GUEST,999
Date: 26 Nov 12 - 06:55 PM

It's good to see you back, Lox.

BM

Subject: RE: BS: Are Israeli leaders complete arseholes?
From: Steve Shaw
Date: 26 Nov 12 - 07:13 PM

Amongst other things they describe the blockade as punishment.

Indeed. Those soldiers could have said collective punishment, an Israeli government speciality. Those horrid Gazans voted for Hamas so they've got it coming (OK, Michael?). Well let's just have a quick look (I stand to be corrected on the fine detail, which seems hard to come by). The population of the Gaza strip is about 1,600,000 souls. At least half the population is too young to vote. The turnout of eligible voters was under 75%. More than half of those who turned out voted for parties other than Hamas. By my reckoning then, being generous, maybe about three or four hundred thousand Gazans at the very most voted for Hamas. Out of at least four times that many citizens of Gaza. To me, Mr Simpleton here, that looks like a policy of collective punishment, which is undeniably what that blockade is, which is utterly unjustified and utterly inhumane.

Subject: RE: BS: Are Israeli leaders complete arseholes?
From: Lox
Date: 26 Nov 12 - 07:16 PM

Never far away :-)

Subject: RE: BS: Are Israeli leaders complete arseholes?
From: Keith A of Hertford
Date: 27 Nov 12 - 01:15 AM

Mick, I know the 49 agreement was not intended to be permanent at the time, but the agreed border for Gaza was not controversial or disputed and has since become accepted by everyone, except a few folkies.

So, they were not set unilaterally by Israel as claimed by Steve.
It was a bilateral agreement between the only two parties concerned.
I was not lying, as claimed by Jack.

Everyone was happy with that agreement, so there was no reason ever to change it.
After 67 all the Gazan Palestinians wanted was that border back.
Israel has obliged.
What is the issue?

Subject: RE: BS: Are Israeli leaders complete arseholes?
From: Keith A of Hertford
Date: 27 Nov 12 - 02:49 AM

Are Some Soldiers Arseholes?
Yes.
And some are consumed with hate.

There have been almost identical accounts of British soldiers searching houses in Northern Ireland.
There have been much worse accounts of US soldiers in Iraq.
Remember whole families murdered, one family gunned down after the rape and murder of their 14 year old girl?

No doubt some Hamas fighters do bad things too, but they could never go public.
Remember the fate of the 4 "spies" last week?

If only Hamas would call off the war.

Subject: RE: BS: Are Israeli leaders complete arseholes?
From: Lox
Date: 27 Nov 12 - 04:34 AM

The Israeli soldiers accounts describe systematic abuse not isolated incidents.

Hamas have only been in power since 2006 - the 'war' has been going on much longer than that - sop they can't have started it.

Besides, Miko Peled and many other Israeli Jews like him, in addition to many non Israeli Jews, seem quite sure that it was their country that is the aggressor and the conqueror.

Arab testimony is of course unreliable, as we all know, and therefore inadmissable, since they are, according to Netanhyahu, an inferior culture.

Subject: RE: BS: Are Israeli leaders complete arseholes?
From: Lox
Date: 27 Nov 12 - 05:06 AM

On the subject of the borders and the buffer zone,

The provisions of the current truce include freedom for Palestinian fishermen to fish up to 6 miles out from the shore as opposed to the 3 miles they have been forced to make do with in recent times as well as freedom to return to farm their lands in the buffer zone.

Not that this has deterred the IDF, who despite the ceasefire have been firing on farmers and fishing boats in these areas.

I wondered whether this news might be of any use to those of you discussing the border/buffer zone question.

Subject: RE: BS: Are Israeli leaders complete arseholes?
From: Don(Wyziwyg)T
Date: 27 Nov 12 - 05:10 AM

""I don't doubt that at all, Don. Bad shit happens in war and warfare. I was about to PM you and I'll now do so. The IDF cannot be whitewashed in this any more than can the various groups who attack Israelis.""

Precisely my continuously repeated point Bruce.

BOTH TO BLAME!

Don T.

Subject: RE: BS: Are Israeli leaders complete arseholes?
From: Don(Wyziwyg)T
Date: 27 Nov 12 - 05:18 AM

""There have been almost identical accounts of British soldiers searching houses in Northern Ireland.
There have been much worse accounts of US soldiers in Iraq.
Remember whole families murdered, one family gunned down after the rape and murder of their 14 year old girl?""

I think I just forestalled that comment by menytioning it in connection with that Israeli's evidence.

Two glaring differences:-

1. The US and UK crimes were committed by small squads run amuk, while the Gaza crime was "a batallion operation".

2. THe US and UK criminals were tried and punished by their own side when caught. There is no record, to my knowledge of an Israeli BATALLION being even criticised.


Don T

Subject: RE: BS: Are Israeli leaders complete arseholes?
From: Steve Shaw
Date: 27 Nov 12 - 05:30 AM

It isn't so simple as "both to blame". This incredibly lopsided "conflict" is fuelled entirely from outside. Smuggled rocket parts keep Hamas going and three billion a year military aid (unconditional, of course) from the US makes Israel feel immune. Naturally, Israel gets great comfort and encouragement from us in the west who hardly ever dare criticise even their worst outrages in Gaza, whilst simultaneously condemning in far stronger terms those satanic yet ramshackle rockets that nearly always miss. Apportioning blame is (apart from being useless in terms of making progress) impossible without including outside influences in the reckoning. The balance of such influences between the two sides is reflective of the disproportionality of Israel's response to its irritating neighbour. None of this is intended to let anyone off the hook, by the way.

Subject: RE: BS: Are Israeli leaders complete arseholes?
From: Don(Wyziwyg)T
Date: 27 Nov 12 - 05:49 AM

Nowhere did I say anything about both being equally to blame Steve, but it does take two to make a fight.

My main concern is in confronting those who wish to demonise Hamas and Gazans, while at the same time trying to misrepresent Israel as a squeaky clean victim.

You know who you are.

Don T.

Subject: RE: BS: Are Israeli leaders complete arseholes?
From: Don(Wyziwyg)T
Date: 27 Nov 12 - 05:53 AM

2. Naval Blockade

Unit: Navy

Location: Gaza Strip

Year: 2008

It's mostly punishment. I hate that: "They did this to us, so we'll do that to them." Do you know what a naval blockade means for the people in Gaza? There's no food for a few days. For example, suppose there's an attack in Netanya, so they impose a naval blockade for four days on the entire Strip. No seagoing vessel can leave. A Dabur patrol boat is stationed at the entrance to the port, if they try to go out, within seconds the soldiers shoot at the bow and even deploy attack helicopters to scare them. We did a lot of operations with attack helicopters -- they don't shoot much because they prefer to let us deal with that, but they're there to scare people, they circle over their heads. All of a sudden there's a Cobra right over your head, stirring up the wind and throwing everything around.

And how frequent were the blockades?

Very. It could be three times one month, and then three months of nothing. It depends.

The blockade goes on for a day, two days, three days, four, or more than that?

I can't remember anything longer than four days. If it was longer than that, they'd die there, and I think the IDF knows that. Seventy percent of Gaza lives on fishing -- they have no other choice. For them it means not eating. There are whole families who don't eat for a few days because of the blockade. They eat bread and water.

Subject: RE: BS: Are Israeli leaders complete arseholes?
From: Don(Wyziwyg)T
Date: 27 Nov 12 - 06:03 AM

We shot at fishermen

Unit: Navy

Location: Gaza Strip

Year: 2007

There's an area bordering Gaza that's under the navy's control. Even after Israel disengaged from the Strip, nothing changed in the sea sector. I remember that near Area K, which divided Israel and Gaza, there were kids as young as four or six, who'd get up early in the morning to fish, in the areas that were off-limits. They'd go there because the other areas were crowded with fishermen. The kids always tried to cross, and every morning we'd shoot in their direction to scare them off. It got to the point of shooting at the kids' feet where they were standing on the beach or at the ones on surfboards. We had Druze police officers on board who'd scream at them in Arabic. We'd see the poor kids crying.

What do you mean, "shoot in their direction"?

It starts with shooting in the air, then it shifts to shooting close by, and in extreme cases it becomes shooting toward their legs.

At what distance?

Five or six hundred meters, with a Rafael heavy machine gun, it's all automatic.

Where do you aim?

It's about perspective. On the screen, there's a measure for height and a one for width, and you mark where you want the bullet to go with the cursor. It cancels out the effect of the waves and hits where it's supposed to, it's precise.

You aim a meter away from the surfboard?

More like five or six meters. I heard about cases where they actually hit the surfboards, but I didn't see it. There were other things that bothered me, this thing with Palestinian fishing nets. The nets cost around four thousand shekels, which is like a million dollars for them. When they wouldn't do what we said too many times, we'd sink their nets. They leave their nets in the water for something like six hours. The Dabur patrol boat comes along and cuts their nets.

Why?

As a punishment.

For what?

Because they didn't do what we said. Let's say a boat drifts over to an area that's off-limits, so a Dabur comes, circles, shoots in the air, and goes back. Then an hour later, the boat comes back and so does the Dabur. The third time around, the Dabur starts shooting at the nets, at the boat, and then shoots to sink them.

Is the off-limits area close to Israel?

There's one area close to Israel and another along the Israeli-Egyptian border… Israel's sea border is twelve miles out, and Gaza's is only three. They've only got those three miles, and that's because of one reason, which is that Israel wants its gas, and there's an offshore drilling rig something like three and a half miles out facing the Gaza Strip, which should be Palestinian, except that it's ours… the Navy Special Forces unit provides security for the rig. A bird comes near the area, they shoot it. There's an insane amount of security for that thing. One time there were Egyptian fishing nets over the three-mile limit, and we dealt with them. A total disaster.

Meaning?

They were in international waters, we don't have jurisdiction there, but we'd shoot at them.

At Egyptian fishing nets?

Yes. Although we're at peace with Egypt.

Subject: RE: BS: Are Israeli leaders complete arseholes?
From: MGM·Lion
Date: 27 Nov 12 - 06:17 AM

There are two threads ongoing on Israel, the 'arseholes' one and the 'Vilnai.. Shoah' one. I am posting this on both.

I have previously posted on both in defence of Israeli policy in Gaza, which has led some, understandably, to question the wholeheartedness of the rejection I have long professed of any identification with present-day Israel, a vast disappointment to many like me in my generation of Jews and its successors. I still feel that the Israeli position on the Gaza situation is understandable in the circumstances, and maintain my mystification as to how weapons but not food can get in.

But I shall no longer pursue this attitude; nor will I contribute any further to, or even open again, either of these threads.

This decision follows my horror at reading Lox's link on one of the threads to the members of the IDF's accounts of their colleagues' behaviour in carrying out searches, which consisted largely of maltreatment of the occupants of houses chosen to be searched. These activities were, I shame to say, learnt from the behaviour of British troops occupying Palestine under the Mandate. I have related before, on another thread, the stories my family learned from an Israeli friend who stayed as a houseguest with us in the late 40s, soon after Israel's Independence, of her friend's having experience a search by British soldiers, which consisted, with their sergeant's consent & encouragement, of nothing but shitting on the floor and then using the family's personal clothing to wipe their bums. And these, I repeat, were British soldiers, oh the shame! It seems the way soldiers go on in such situations

But, be that as it may, I still cannot countenance the tales in Lox's link of Israeli soldiers going on in any such fashion, mistreating innocent occupants of houses they have chosen to search, destroying things, and so on, whoever or wherever their predecessors in such conduct might have been.

So, I repeat, I leave this thread and its companion: with my curse on what Israel has become as my final words.

~Michael~

Subject: RE: BS: Are Israeli leaders complete arseholes?
From: Steve Shaw
Date: 27 Nov 12 - 09:36 AM

Nowhere did I say anything about both being equally to blame Steve, but it does take two to make a fight.

My main concern is in confronting those who wish to demonise Hamas and Gazans, while at the same time trying to misrepresent Israel as a squeaky clean victim.

You know who you are.

We are not disagreeing in any substantial way. But I think in this case it has taken more than two, not to make the fight necessarily, but to keep the flames fanned. If you're looking around for blame, it isn't hard to pick out the US as a massive culprit in all this (along with the lily-livered EU with their "moral" support). They bankroll Israel's military unconditionally but do very little effectively in return to broker peace (most "efforts" to do this are a complete sham organised by the US/Israel/AIPAC axis, with nothing meaningful on the table for the Palestinians). The US/Israel perpetual love-in is highly irresponsible, and is behind not only this conflict but all other conflicts in the middle east in which Israel or the west have been involved. We do nothing to make Israel into a grown-up, responsible nation. I actually believe that that makes most Israelis far more miserable and insecure than they need to be. It encouraged the hubris that led to the egregiously-stupid assassination of Ahmed al-Jabari, a man who was involved in looking for a long-term ceasefire and who had brokered the release last year of Gilad Shalit.

Until we western thickos realise that Israel wants water and land for settlements far more than it wants peace, and redress that imbalance by making aid conditional, this tragedy will go on and on without end. Guaranteed.

Subject: RE: BS: Are Israeli leaders complete arseholes?
From: GUEST,CS
Date: 27 Nov 12 - 09:53 AM

"The balance of such influences between the two sides is reflective of the disproportionality of Israel's response to its irritating neighbour."

Disproportionate it is. Like the man with his boot pressed down upon another mans neck, who complains when his victim tries to bite his ankle.

Subject: RE: BS: Are Israeli leaders complete arseholes?
From: Keith A of Hertford
Date: 27 Nov 12 - 10:12 AM

disproportionality of Israel's response

Because there were few Jews killed by the rockets?
Only because a third of the population were living in shelters!
A school was hit (again).
No children died because instead of being at school with their friends they were huddled, terrified, underground and had been for weeks.
Businesses and services shut down.
That is not acceptable, and the absence of many actual dead Jews does not make it OK.
The response was intended to stop the rockets, but it only reduced them, so not that disproportionate.

Subject: RE: BS: Are Israeli leaders complete arseholes?
From: Don(Wyziwyg)T
Date: 27 Nov 12 - 11:12 AM

""Only because a third of the population were living in shelters!
A school was hit (again).""

While the Gazan civilians die on the surface, because the building materials to construct shelters are denied them.

And more than one school has beeen destroyed in Gaza, some by heavy artillery, some by air strike, and at least one that we know of by a Battallion strength search party of a village, which seems to have left nothing unbroken in its wake, without finding either weapons or the fighters who are supposed to be using them from behind civilians.

No possible justification can be accepted for that.

Don T.

Subject: RE: BS: Are Israeli leaders complete arseholes?
From: Don(Wyziwyg)T
Date: 27 Nov 12 - 11:20 AM

Shoot to Kill

Unit: Engineering Corps

Location: Rafah

Year: 2006

During the operations in Gaza, anyone walking around in the street, you shoot at the torso. In one operation in the Philadelphi corridor, anyone walking around at night, you shoot at the torso.

How often were the operations?

Daily. In the Philadelphi corridor, every day.

When you're searching for tunnels, how do people manage to get around -- I mean, they live in the area.

It's like this: You bring one force up to the third or fourth floor of a building. Another group does the search below. They know that while they're doing the search there'll be people trying to attack them. So they put the force up high, so they can shoot at anyone down in the street.

How much shooting was there?

Endless.

Say I'm there, I'm up on the third floor. I shoot at anyone I see?

Yes.

But it's in Gaza, it's a street, it's the most crowded place in the world.

No, no, I'm talking about the Philadelphi corridor.

So that's a rural area?

Not exactly, there's a road, it's like the suburbs, not the center. During operations in the other Gaza neighborhoods it's the same thing. Shooting, during night operations -- shooting.

It there any kind of announcement telling people to stay indoors?

No.

They actually shot people?

They shot anyone walking around in the street. It always ended with, "We killed six terrorists today." Whoever you shot in the street is "a terrorist."

That's what they say at the briefings?

The goal is to kill terrorists.

What are the rules of engagement?

Whoever's walking around at night, shoot to kill.

During the day, too?

They talked about that in the briefings: whoever's walking around during the day, look for something suspicious. But something suspicious could be a cane.

Subject: RE: BS: Are Israeli leaders complete arseholes?
From: Don(Wyziwyg)T
Date: 27 Nov 12 - 11:26 AM

Her limbs were smeared on the wall

Unit: Givati Brigade

Location: Gaza Strip

Year: 2008

One company told me they did an operation where a woman was blown up and smeared all over the wall. They kept knocking on her door and there was no answer, so they decided to open it with explosives. They placed them at the door and right at that moment the woman came to open it. Then her kids came down and saw her. I heard about it after the operation at dinner. Someone said it was funny that the kids saw their mother smeared on the wall and everyone cracked up. Another time I got screamed at by my platoon when I went to give the detainees some water from our field kit canteen. They said, "What, are you crazy?" I couldn't see what their problem was, so they said, "Come on, germs." In Nahal Oz, there was an incident with kids who'd been sent by their parents to try to get into Israel to find food, because their families were hungry. They were fourteen- or fifteen-year-old boys, I think. I remember one of them sitting blindfolded and then someone came and hit him, here.

On the legs.

And poured oil on him, the stuff we use to clean weapons.

Subject: RE: BS: Are Israeli leaders complete arseholes?
From: bobad
Date: 27 Nov 12 - 11:50 AM

Hamas savages execute six "collaborators" and drag the body of one through the streets of Gaza, and the world press is indignant mostly silent.

To see how subhuman Hamas is, watch this video. It is not for the faint of heart. Earlier today, Hamas terrorists seized six Gaza residents whom they accused of being "spies" for Israel. The accusation was likely false, but we will never know. Be that as it may, the Hamas sadists pulled six men out of a van on a busy Gaza street, forced them to lie down on the street, and shot them dead. The mob of Palestinians that had gathered then stomped and spit on the pile of bodies. The Hamas men tied one of the six bodies to the back of a motorcycle and dragged it through the streets of Gaza City, in a scene reminiscent of The Wild Bunch.

Go here if you think your stomach can handle it!

Subject: RE: BS: Are Israeli leaders complete arseholes?
From: bobad
Date: 27 Nov 12 - 12:04 PM

Son of Hamas Leader: Hamas Atrocities Led Me to Convert

Musab Yousef exposes Hamas' tactics when dealing with their own. He now lives in California, with a Fatwa on his head.

Video

Subject: RE: BS: Are Israeli leaders complete arseholes?
From: bobad
Date: 27 Nov 12 - 12:09 PM

Hamas Use of CHILDREN in Gaza as Human Shields

Subject: RE: BS: Are Israeli leaders complete arseholes?
From: Steve Shaw
Date: 27 Nov 12 - 12:15 PM

"Subhuman"

"Sadists"

"Palestinian mob"

What helpful language. Have you read those accounts in Lox's link yet? Care to give any similarly emotional characterisations for those on the other side? And, after you've done all that, do tell us how much you think you've helped.

Subject: RE: BS: Are Israeli leaders complete arseholes?
From: Keith A of Hertford
Date: 27 Nov 12 - 02:48 PM

Don, agree nothing justifies inhumanity.

Building materials are allowed under aid agency supervision.
Hamas chooses missiles above food, so it would choose bunkers before shelters.

Now, what would be a proportionate response to the rocketing of Southern Israel.

If the response had been less, would they have reduced rocket fire, or increased it retaliation.
We now know they had plenty to fire.

How can the response be disproportionate when it only slightly reduced the rocketing?
Why did no-one object to the rocketing until, weeks later, Israel responded?
Why doesn't Hamas just call off the war and bring peace and prosperity in its place?
Israel wants nothing from Gaza but an end to the attacks.
Agree?
Or, what do you think Israel wants from the place they walked away from?

Subject: RE: BS: Are Israeli leaders complete arseholes?
From: Lox
Date: 27 Nov 12 - 03:50 PM

"Hamas savages execute six "collaborators" and drag the body of one through the streets of Gaza, and the world press is indignant mostly silent."

Not true.

It was front page news everywhere I looked.

And it was disgusting and savage and an affront to humanity.

Subject: RE: BS: Are Israeli leaders complete arseholes?
From: Jack the Sailor
Date: 27 Nov 12 - 03:50 PM

Isn't it telling that Israel is the only "Democracy" that has immigration, expulsions, subsidized sects of religion studying baby makers and unnatural artificial "boarders" in order to keep a single religion in control of its government?

Subject: RE: BS: Are Israeli leaders complete arseholes?
From: Steve Shaw
Date: 27 Nov 12 - 03:52 PM

How can the response be disproportionate when it only slightly reduced the rocketing?

Christ almighty, Keith, the rocketing was only slightly reduced because the response didn't work, that's why. It was not a good response so it didn't work. It was a disproportionate, lousy, ineffective response. So it did not work. I mean, wassup, Keith?!

Subject: RE: BS: Are Israeli leaders complete arseholes?
From: Lox
Date: 27 Nov 12 - 03:55 PM

The video about human shields is a propaganda exercise - I was hoping for some useful information.

I switched off when It began to lecture that "Israel views human shields as a violation etc etc"

I switched off because there is a lot of evidence around documenting Israels use of palestinian children as human shields.

Subject: RE: BS: Are Israeli leaders complete arseholes?
From: GUEST,999
Date: 27 Nov 12 - 04:40 PM

"I switched off because there is a lot of evidence around documenting Israels use of palestinian children as human shields."

Any chance you'd link to some, Lox?

Subject: RE: BS: Are Israeli leaders complete arseholes?
From: Keith A of Hertford
Date: 27 Nov 12 - 06:33 PM

Steve, how should they have responded to the incessant rocketing of their people?
What would make Hamas stop trying to kill them?

Subject: RE: BS: Are Israeli leaders complete arseholes?
From: Keith A of Hertford
Date: 27 Nov 12 - 06:37 PM

Fathi Hamad, a senior member of Hamas, stated in 2008 that "for the Palestinian people, death became an industry, at which women and children excel. Accordingly we created a human shield of women, children and elderly. We seek death as you [Israelis] desire life."

Subject: RE: BS: Are Israeli leaders complete arseholes?
From: Lox
Date: 27 Nov 12 - 06:38 PM

Here you are Bruce


Human Shields

Subject: RE: BS: Are Israeli leaders complete arseholes?
From: Don(Wyziwyg)T
Date: 27 Nov 12 - 06:41 PM

""Hamas terrorists seized six Gaza residents whom they accused of being "spies" for Israel. The accusation was likely false, but we will never know. Be that as it may, the Hamas sadists pulled six men out of a van on a busy Gaza street, forced them to lie down on the street, and shot them dead.""

So you are guessing that they might have been spies, without any ewvidence. Did it not occur to you that Hamas might have had just such evidence?

How does Israel treat spies? Not gently, I'm sure.

Don T.

Subject: RE: BS: Are Israeli leaders complete arseholes?
From: Keith A of Hertford
Date: 27 Nov 12 - 06:46 PM

They have trials Don.

Subject: RE: BS: Are Israeli leaders complete arseholes?
From: Steve Shaw
Date: 27 Nov 12 - 06:46 PM

Steve, how should they have responded to the incessant rocketing of their people?
What would make Hamas stop trying to kill them?

Well, a good start would be to desist from further settlement expansion. They could follow that by dismantling the brutal apartheid wall that has divided farms and families. They could stop the road blocks. They could lift the siege (some progress there - maybe...). They could respect the Gaza border and desist from further aggressive military incursions. Once all that immediate stuff is done, they could agree to talks that include Hamas.

Ask a silly question, Keith, and you just might get the only sensible answer.

Subject: RE: BS: Are Israeli leaders complete arseholes?
From: Don(Wyziwyg)T
Date: 27 Nov 12 - 06:50 PM

""Steve, how should they have responded to the incessant rocketing of their people?
What would make Hamas stop trying to kill them?""

Perhaps if Israel genuinely relinquished control of Gaza's borders?.......But, of course, they won't....ever.

Don T.

P.S. and please do not insult our intelligence by claiming that Israel doesn't control Gaza's border, including the Gaza/Egypt one.

Don T.

Subject: RE: BS: Are Israeli leaders complete arseholes?
From: Don(Wyziwyg)T
Date: 27 Nov 12 - 06:53 PM

""Building materials are allowed under aid agency supervision.""

Since no aid agency has influence on Israeli policy, this is a sick joke.

Don T.

Subject: RE: BS: Are Israeli leaders complete arseholes?
From: Steve Shaw
Date: 27 Nov 12 - 06:54 PM

They have trials Don.

They have trials all right - if you're an Israeli Jew. If you are unfortunate to not be in that category, you may be imprisoned without charge or trial, in what the Israelis call, in war-speak, "administrative detention". From wiki:

As of January 2012, 309 Palestinians were held without criminal charges, according to B'Tselem:

16 Palestinians have been held without charge for 2–4.5 years
88 have been held for 1–2 years
80 have been held for 6 months-1 year
In July 2012 the number had decreased to 250.

Like to qualify your statement, Keith?

Subject: RE: BS: Are Israeli leaders complete arseholes?
From: Keith A of Hertford
Date: 27 Nov 12 - 06:55 PM

The question was not silly Steve, but your answer was.
Israel evicted its settlers from Gaza and pulled out.
The rockets increased.
Ease the blockade.
More rockets.
Every concession is seized on as a victory to build on with more rockets.
Now seriously, when the rockets were falling harder than ever, a third of the people in shelters, what was Israel to do?
What would any people demand their government do?
Hit back.
Hard enough to at least reduce the terror and bring them to negotiate a truce.
Which happened.
The rockets have stopped.

Subject: RE: BS: Are Israeli leaders complete arseholes?
From: Don(Wyziwyg)T
Date: 27 Nov 12 - 06:55 PM

""It was front page news everywhere I looked.

And it was disgusting and savage and an affront to humanity.""

And it didn't justify aany Israeli action, because they aare as bad, or worse.

Don T.