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BS: US Thanksgiving--Debate

Lizzie Cornish 1 18 Nov 12 - 09:19 AM
Lizzie Cornish 1 18 Nov 12 - 09:25 AM
Marmdad 18 Nov 12 - 10:34 AM
Dave the Gnome 18 Nov 12 - 10:44 AM
Lizzie Cornish 1 18 Nov 12 - 11:59 AM
kendall 18 Nov 12 - 12:20 PM
Henry Krinkle 18 Nov 12 - 12:25 PM
Greg F. 18 Nov 12 - 12:36 PM
Stringsinger 18 Nov 12 - 01:11 PM
Lizzie Cornish 1 18 Nov 12 - 01:16 PM
Dave the Gnome 18 Nov 12 - 02:04 PM
Greg F. 18 Nov 12 - 04:47 PM
catspaw49 18 Nov 12 - 06:04 PM
Henry Krinkle 18 Nov 12 - 06:11 PM
Greg F. 18 Nov 12 - 06:21 PM
Lizzie Cornish 1 18 Nov 12 - 06:35 PM
Lizzie Cornish 1 18 Nov 12 - 06:36 PM
Greg F. 18 Nov 12 - 06:45 PM
Henry Krinkle 18 Nov 12 - 07:04 PM
Henry Krinkle 19 Nov 12 - 03:13 AM
Dave the Gnome 19 Nov 12 - 03:30 AM
Henry Krinkle 19 Nov 12 - 03:49 AM
GUEST,Lizzie Cornish 19 Nov 12 - 04:53 AM
ragdall 19 Nov 12 - 06:30 AM
Greg F. 19 Nov 12 - 08:36 AM
Jim Dixon 19 Nov 12 - 09:45 AM
Greg F. 19 Nov 12 - 09:58 AM
Henry Krinkle 19 Nov 12 - 01:01 PM
catspaw49 19 Nov 12 - 01:08 PM
Greg F. 19 Nov 12 - 02:01 PM
Lizzie Cornish 1 19 Nov 12 - 02:53 PM
Greg F. 19 Nov 12 - 03:53 PM
Lizzie Cornish 1 19 Nov 12 - 04:31 PM
Greg F. 19 Nov 12 - 05:27 PM
Lizzie Cornish 1 19 Nov 12 - 06:18 PM
Wesley S 19 Nov 12 - 07:31 PM
MarkS 19 Nov 12 - 10:09 PM
Greg F. 19 Nov 12 - 10:10 PM
Henry Krinkle 19 Nov 12 - 10:37 PM
Henry Krinkle 20 Nov 12 - 12:23 AM
Henry Krinkle 20 Nov 12 - 12:32 AM
Dave the Gnome 20 Nov 12 - 01:37 AM
Lizzie Cornish 1 20 Nov 12 - 04:56 AM
Jeri 20 Nov 12 - 06:34 AM
Henry Krinkle 20 Nov 12 - 06:41 AM
catspaw49 20 Nov 12 - 06:48 AM
Henry Krinkle 20 Nov 12 - 07:08 AM
Henry Krinkle 20 Nov 12 - 07:12 AM
Dave the Gnome 20 Nov 12 - 08:06 AM
kendall 20 Nov 12 - 08:20 AM

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Subject: RE: BS:What are you doing for Thanksgiving?
From: Lizzie Cornish 1
Date: 18 Nov 12 - 09:19 AM

Uh Oh, Party Pooper is back! Ermmm...not ALL the Alonquin People will be celebrating in the 'traditional' way, that being The White Man's Way....

Mohawk - Thanksgiving

The Wampanoag

The speech of Frank James, which he was NOT allowed to deliver, even though he had been cordially invited to make a speech that day. Answers for why he was then 'uninvited' on a postcard, please to"

Bloody Befuddled
'WhyDoWeKeepDenyingThis' House
TimeWeGrewAndAcceptedWhatHappened Lane
Truth Town


"I speak to you as a man -- a Wampanoag Man. I am a proud man, proud of my ancestry, my accomplishments won by a strict parental direction ("You must succeed - your face is a different color in this small Cape Cod community!"). I am a product of poverty and discrimination from these two social and economic diseases. I, and my brothers and sisters, have painfully overcome, and to some extent we have earned the respect of our community. We are Indians first - but we are termed "good citizens." Sometimes we are arrogant but only because society has pressured us to be so.

    "It is with mixed emotion that I stand here to share my thoughts. This is a time of celebration for you - celebrating an anniversary of a beginning for the white man in America. A time of looking back, of reflection. It is with a heavy heart that I look back upon what happened to my People.

    "Even before the Pilgrims landed it was common practice for explorers to capture Indians, take them to Europe and sell them as slaves for 220 shillings apiece. The Pilgrims had hardly explored the shores of Cape Cod for four days before they had robbed the graves of my ancestors and stolen their corn and beans. Mourt's Relation describes a searching party of sixteen men. Mourt goes on to say that this party took as much of the Indians' winter provisions as they were able to carry.

    "Massasoit, the great Sachem of the Wampanoag, knew these facts, yet he and his People welcomed and befriended the settlers of the Plymouth Plantation. Perhaps he did this because his Tribe had been depleted by an epidemic. Or his knowledge of the harsh oncoming winter was the reason for his peaceful acceptance of these acts. This action by Massasoit was perhaps our biggest mistake. We, the Wampanoag, welcomed you, the white man, with open arms, little knowing that it was the beginning of the end; that before 50 years were to pass, the Wampanoag would no longer be a free people.

    What happened in those short 50 years? What has happened in the last 300 years? History gives us facts and there were atrocities; there were broken promises - and most of these centered around land ownership. Among ourselves we understood that there were boundaries, but never before had we had to deal with fences and stone walls. But the white man had a need to prove his worth by the amount of land that he owned. Only ten years later, when the Puritans came, they treated the Wampanoag with even less kindness in converting the souls of the so-called "savages." Although the Puritans were harsh to members of their own society, the Indian was pressed between stone slabs and hanged as quickly as any other "witch."

    "And so down through the years there is record after record of Indian lands taken and, in token, reservations set up for him upon which to live. The Indian, having been stripped of his power, could only stand by and watch while the white man took his land and used it for his personal gain. This the Indian could not understand; for to him, land was survival, to farm, to hunt, to be enjoyed. It was not to be abused. We see incident after incident, where the white man sought to tame the "savage" and convert him to the Christian ways of life. The early Pilgrim settlers led the Indian to believe that if he did not behave, they would dig up the ground and unleash the great epidemic again.

    "The white man used the Indian's nautical skills and abilities. They let him be only a seaman -- but never a captain. Time and time again, in the white man's society, we Indians have been termed "low man on the totem pole."

    "Has the Wampanoag really disappeared? There is still an aura of mystery. We know there was an epidemic that took many Indian lives - some Wampanoags moved west and joined the Cherokee and Cheyenne. They were forced to move. Some even went north to Canada! Many Wampanoag put aside their Indian heritage and accepted the white man's way for their own survival. There are some Wampanoag who do not wish it known they are Indian for social or economic reasons.

    "What happened to those Wampanoags who chose to remain and live among the early settlers? What kind of existence did they live as "civilized" people? True, living was not as complex as life today, but they dealt with the confusion and the change. Honesty, trust, concern, pride, and politics wove themselves in and out of their [the Wampanoags'] daily living. Hence, he was termed crafty, cunning, rapacious, and dirty.

    "History wants us to believe that the Indian was a savage, illiterate, uncivilized animal. A history that was written by an organized, disciplined people, to expose us as an unorganized and undisciplined entity. Two distinctly different cultures met. One thought they must control life; the other believed life was to be enjoyed, because nature decreed it. Let us remember, the Indian is and was just as human as the white man. The Indian feels pain, gets hurt, and becomes defensive, has dreams, bears tragedy and failure, suffers from loneliness, needs to cry as well as laugh. He, too, is often misunderstood.

    "The white man in the presence of the Indian is still mystified by his uncanny ability to make him feel uncomfortable. This may be the image the white man has created of the Indian; his "savageness" has boomeranged and isn't a mystery; it is fear; fear of the Indian's temperament!

    "High on a hill, overlooking the famed Plymouth Rock, stands the statue of our great Sachem, Massasoit. Massasoit has stood there many years in silence. We the descendants of this great Sachem have been a silent people. The necessity of making a living in this materialistic society of the white man caused us to be silent. Today, I and many of my people are choosing to face the truth. We ARE Indians!

    "Although time has drained our culture, and our language is almost extinct, we the Wampanoags still walk the lands of Massachusetts. We may be fragmented, we may be confused. Many years have passed since we have been a people together. Our lands were invaded. We fought as hard to keep our land as you the whites did to take our land away from us. We were conquered, we became the American prisoners of war in many cases, and wards of the United States Government, until only recently.

    "Our spirit refuses to die. Yesterday we walked the woodland paths and sandy trails. Today we must walk the macadam highways and roads. We are uniting We're standing not in our wigwams but in your concrete tent. We stand tall and proud, and before too many moons pass we'll right the wrongs we have allowed to happen to us.

    "We forfeited our country. Our lands have fallen into the hands of the aggressor. We have allowed the white man to keep us on our knees. What has happened cannot be changed, but today we must work towards a more humane America, a more Indian America, where men and nature once again are important; where the Indian values of honor, truth, and brotherhood prevail.

    "You the white man are celebrating an anniversary. We the Wampanoags will help you celebrate in the concept of a beginning. It was the beginning of a new life for the Pilgrims. Now, 350 years later it is a beginning of a new determination for the original American: the American Indian.

    "There are some factors concerning the Wampanoags and other Indians across this vast nation. We now have 350 years of experience living amongst the white man. We can now speak his language. We can now think as a white man thinks. We can now compete with him for the top jobs. We're being heard; we are now being listened to. The important point is that along with these necessities of everyday living, we still have the spirit, we still have the unique culture, we still have the will and, most important of all, the determination to remain as Indians. We are determined, and our presence here this evening is living testimony that this is only the beginning of the American Indian, particularly the Wampanoag, to regain the position in this country that is rightfully ours."

Taken from here:
The National Day of Mourning


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Subject: RE: BS:What are you doing for Thanksgiving?
From: Lizzie Cornish 1
Date: 18 Nov 12 - 09:25 AM

And please remember that whilst your President is busy pardoning yet two more Turkeys from being killed, he presides over a government which keeps an innocent Native Americann in prison, for the 37th YEAR now, STILL refusing to pardon Leonard Peltier....preferring to Pardon Turkeys instead...

Obama should be hanging his head in shame, for of ALL Presidents HE is the one who should have freed Leonard Peltier, almost the moment he first became President, sending out a message to the Native Americans that FINALLY things were going to be changing, fast and furious..

Sorry for making anyone feel uncomfortable, but maybe, just maybe, there are many things about Thanksgiving to feel uncomfortable about, until all these Wrongs have finally been Righted....


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Subject: RE: BS:What are you doing for Thanksgiving?
From: Marmdad
Date: 18 Nov 12 - 10:34 AM

Peltier doesn't equal votes, but somehow illegal immigrants do.

Richard


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Subject: RE: BS:What are you doing for Thanksgiving?
From: Dave the Gnome
Date: 18 Nov 12 - 10:44 AM

Sorry all my US friends - You are for it now :-( Thanksgiving - No thanks, Think of the Indians. Christmas? Don't make me laugh. How many Moslems will you offend celebrating that? Easter? I am surprised Israel hasn't already declared war! Independance Day? Us UKers will have a thing or two to say about that.... National blind, one-legged, black lesbian unicyclists day? I am sure it must offend tri-cyclists...

Or, on the other hand, you could do like I do and celebrate EVRYONES day. It's great. I enjoy Christmas, Hanukah, Divali, Eid, Samhain and the occasional Bastile day :-) Ignore the wankers who try to win political points by claiming that whatever you celebrate is wrong. Poo-poo the poopers. By all means have a social consience. It feels great to help others and we all benefit from it. But have a day off. Enjoy yourself without feeling guilty once in a while. Even the most ardent nay-sayers occasionaly say yay. Don't they?

And sorry I am a day late, but, happy thanksgiving to EVERYONE.


:D tG


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Subject: RE: BS: US Thanksgiving--Debate
From: Lizzie Cornish 1
Date: 18 Nov 12 - 11:59 AM

You should do a little more research about this day, seek out the history of it, then put yourself in the shoes of the Native Americans and see it from their side....perhaps.

Nowt wrong with celebrating family, harvests etc...but there's a GREAT deal wrong in rejoicing over a day which for so many Indigenous People of America causes great offence and upset....

It could be remedied in an instant, of course, simply by Obama saying that Thanks should be included in this day for the fact that the Native Americans are STILL HERE, after all they suffered.

Of course, that will make the turkey a little harder to swallow, but at least celebrating this fact would go a long way to offering the hand of peace and love out, which the Native Americans, by the way, are trying to do in so many instances...

Of course, the main reason, imo, that America is so shit-scared of REALLY APOLOGIZING, from the heart and soul is because of all that Stolen Land which they may have to start giving back, let alone the lawsuits over the Boarding Schools and so very much more...

Just like the Aussies didn't actually want to apologize to the Aboriginies, shit-scared of the legal ramifications again....They DID eventually do it, made a wonderful apology too, even celebrate it every year, but life for many Aboriginal People is EXACTLY the same as it was before....

Still, never mind, open up the wine, take the turkey out of the oven and put the Thanksgiving Cards up, next to the Celebrate Columbus Day ones and party, party, party.......

I'm GLAD the Native Americans are shouting out 'ENOUGH!' now..and I'll do all I can to help their voices be heard..


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Subject: RE: BS: US Thanksgiving--Debate
From: kendall
Date: 18 Nov 12 - 12:20 PM

No argument here. The first thing the Pilgrims did was raid the winter food supply of the natives, then they hanged 3 Quakers for non conformity in this new land of religious freedom. Or was it the other way round, I forget.

There is not enough evidence to keep a white man in prison for shooting an FBI agent, but Peltier is not white.
We are not ALL blind to our imperfections.


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Subject: RE: BS: US Thanksgiving--Debate
From: Henry Krinkle
Date: 18 Nov 12 - 12:25 PM

Tell them Lizzie!!
=(:-( ))


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Subject: RE: BS: US Thanksgiving--Debate
From: Greg F.
Date: 18 Nov 12 - 12:36 PM

Oh, God, not again......


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Subject: RE: BS: US Thanksgiving--Debate
From: Stringsinger
Date: 18 Nov 12 - 01:11 PM

The Native Americans taught the English settlers in America all about agriculture, and survival in the so-called "New World" which is an offensive term since Native Americans inhabited the land for longer than the white man.

The legend of Thanksgiving is as valuable as George Washington's cherry tree.

It's an excuse for people to stuff themselves with unhealthy garbage and celebrate the fact that they have more food than the rest of undernourished countries.

The "turkey thing" is abominable, being a Vegan, that's my view.


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Subject: RE: BS: US Thanksgiving--Debate
From: Lizzie Cornish 1
Date: 18 Nov 12 - 01:16 PM

Greg, just so you know, I didn't start this thread, it was started by a Mudcat Mod, who took my original post out of the 'What Are You Doing For Thanksgiving' thread, I guess 'cos I was upsetting a few too many folks discussing their turkeys....

Hence, this thread...


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Subject: RE: BS: US Thanksgiving--Debate
From: Dave the Gnome
Date: 18 Nov 12 - 02:04 PM

Does everyone here realise that the 'Native Americans' in question are actually Asian immigrants? Research has recently shown that many of the so called indigenous peoples of North America came over the ice from Eurasia to the western continent in the last ice age. Research does include DNA sampling and proves a common root.

What happened to the people they displaced? Who knows. Probably massacred or wiped out by displacement, starvation and slavery. Ring any bells?

Oh, one thing the research does show. They are definitely Indians...

DtG


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Subject: RE: BS: US Thanksgiving--Debate
From: Greg F.
Date: 18 Nov 12 - 04:47 PM

Now, tha knows, Lizzie, that the Wampanoag had their problems at the hands of subjects of the British Crown, as did the Pequots & the other New England groups. You might want to take it up with James I & Charles I, rather than President Obama?

While we're on the subject of atrocities committed against indigenous populations, how about you take up the history and the cause of the victims of the variouis British colonial & later genocides & atrocities & etc. in India, Australia, Canada, Africa, Central America, the Carribean, Ireland, Borneo & on & on & on.

I'm sure that their descendants would be chuffed to have you take up their cause as well.


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Subject: RE: BS: US Thanksgiving--Debate
From: catspaw49
Date: 18 Nov 12 - 06:04 PM

White or dark meat Greg?

I prefer the dark as it is moister with, I think, moree flavor. Then again, I'm not all that big on the turkey but all the side stuff is great. Of course, I want the damn turkey for all the leftover dishes such as Turkey Pot Pie and Kentucky Hot Brown.....my two personal favorites.


Spaw


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Subject: RE: BS: US Thanksgiving--Debate
From: Henry Krinkle
Date: 18 Nov 12 - 06:11 PM

Kentucky Hot Brown. Are you a Kentuckian too?
=(:-( P)


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Subject: RE: BS: US Thanksgiving--Debate
From: Greg F.
Date: 18 Nov 12 - 06:21 PM

Well, with me its a toss-up, Spaw. I like both, actually. Now, the stuffing, creamed onions, sweet potatoes, pumpkin & pecan pies & all such- I'm with ya there. Better than the bird.

A Happy Thanksgiving to you & yours & try not to kill too many Native Americans, OK?

Greg


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Subject: RE: BS: US Thanksgiving--Debate
From: Lizzie Cornish 1
Date: 18 Nov 12 - 06:35 PM

Funny you should mention Australia, Greg...
EVERY time I raise the story of the Aboriginies on the Support Chief Raoni page (which covers the troubles being caused to many Indigenous People around the world) I *always* get The Racist Bastards coming on, without fail!

It doesn't happen with any other country, but WHAM, I mention the Aboriginies and in they fly..

There are some very nasty and very racist pages in FB about Aboriginal People...I've tried to get them banned, along with so very many other folks, but somehow they just remain there. They're causing a lot of upset to many from Australia, both Aboriginal and White.....

And I've said many times over that the British Government should issue many apologies for our Sociopathic Forefathers and the terrible damage they did... Can't get me for that one, Greg, you'll need to try harder....

Also, I've shout out on behalf of the indigenous peoples of Australia, Native America and The Amazon Rainforest, so how about YOU shouting out about the others on your list, for I'm only one person and I'm already trying to deal with over 25,000 people on Raoni's page, thinking up ways to get them to share information around the planet..

You should start your own pages up, let me have them and I'll get them shared out for you....I'll even think up some photo ideas for you to share, as that's what people share out the most...photos with info on...

Like:

this one

and this one

AND...this one!

The first one I added the info about Leonard Peltier to, where he'd written a letter concerning Columbus Day...It's had over 3,000 shares now..REALLY pleased with that..

The second one is Dilma Rousseff and The Olympic Rings, an idea I had recently, as I want to blast her into oblivion over Rio 2016...so I told someone what I wanted and he made it for me, on the other side of the planet. Isn't the internet bloody wonderful! That's just broken the 1,000 mark now...

And the final one I'm so chuffed about I can barely speak at times, for that's the one for Chief Raoni and the Rainforest and it's had over 8,500 shares now..and I've seen it being used as people's facebook page photo too, so I'm thrilled! That too was made for me by someone else once I'd sent her the words and main photo over. She too did a brilliant job, from thousands of miles away.

You'll find many people who'll want to help you. All you have to do is ask, Greg...

Have a good evening...and don't forget your stuffing...for your er............turkey.


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Subject: RE: BS: US Thanksgiving--Debate
From: Lizzie Cornish 1
Date: 18 Nov 12 - 06:36 PM

Aborigines..
Aborigines...
Aborigines....


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Subject: RE: BS: US Thanksgiving--Debate
From: Greg F.
Date: 18 Nov 12 - 06:45 PM

Whoopee, Lizzie- and when are you going to stop playing with your computer and actually DO something to help your Native American pets?


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Subject: RE: BS: US Thanksgiving--Debate
From: Henry Krinkle
Date: 18 Nov 12 - 07:04 PM

Bless Lizzie's soul. It's high time somebody spoke out.
Will Prez al-Obama listen?
=(:-( ))


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Subject: RE: BS: US Thanksgiving--Debate
From: Henry Krinkle
Date: 19 Nov 12 - 03:13 AM

Europeans colonize. They slaughter and enslave. It's part of who they are. You don't condemn cats for killing do you?
=(:-( ))


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Subject: RE: BS: US Thanksgiving--Debate
From: Dave the Gnome
Date: 19 Nov 12 - 03:30 AM

Europeans colonize. They slaughter and enslave.

Ghengis Khan was European? Wow! The Ottoman Empire? The Qing and Yang Dynasties? The Abbasid Caliphate?

Don't take my word for it - Everyone would colonise, slaughter and enslave given half the chance - See List of Worlds largest empires


DtG


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Subject: RE: BS: US Thanksgiving--Debate
From: Henry Krinkle
Date: 19 Nov 12 - 03:49 AM

True. We humans are bastards when it comes down to it. Bastards.
=(:-( ))


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Subject: RE: BS: US Thanksgiving--Debate
From: GUEST,Lizzie Cornish
Date: 19 Nov 12 - 04:53 AM

I *am* helping, Greg..
Whatyoudoin'?


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Subject: RE: BS: US Thanksgiving--Debate
From: ragdall
Date: 19 Nov 12 - 06:30 AM

Lizzie, (and others)
If you haven't seen it, you might find the Australian film, "BabaKiueria", interesting? It's available as a video on YouTube: http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=SHK308_MTiU

rags


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Subject: RE: BS: US Thanksgiving--Debate
From: Greg F.
Date: 19 Nov 12 - 08:36 AM

Helping 'cause you have a zillion FarceBook "friends" & 'likes" pn your web page? Don't think so. Let me know when you get to South Dakota.


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Subject: RE: BS: US Thanksgiving--Debate
From: Jim Dixon
Date: 19 Nov 12 - 09:45 AM

I understand the first president who pardoned a turkey was Abraham Lincoln, and he meant it as a joke. It must have been pretty funny, the first time. Now it has degenerated into a boring ritual.

Lincoln, by the way, did it at Christmas, not Thanksgiving. There was no official Thanksgiving then.


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Subject: RE: BS: US Thanksgiving--Debate
From: Greg F.
Date: 19 Nov 12 - 09:58 AM

Almost. If the pardoning of the Christmas Turkey is true- there is some difference of opinion on this - Abe just misssed, since Lincoln proclaimed a national Thanksgiving Day, to be celebrated on the final Thursday in November 1863, from which the modern holiday evolved.
No Pilgrims Need Apply.

Proclaimation available here:

http://showcase.netins.net/web/creative/lincoln/speeches/thanks.htm


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Subject: RE: BS: US Thanksgiving--Debate
From: Henry Krinkle
Date: 19 Nov 12 - 01:01 PM

He was such a loudmouthed showoff. Blowhard.
=(:-( O)


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Subject: RE: BS: US Thanksgiving--Debate
From: catspaw49
Date: 19 Nov 12 - 01:08 PM

Well, whatever it is....Lincoln is doing pretty well in theaters right now or at least better than in 1865............


Spaw


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Subject: RE: BS: US Thanksgiving--Debate
From: Greg F.
Date: 19 Nov 12 - 02:01 PM

And Abe's doin a real shitload better than he was doin' in 1866, Spaw!


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Subject: RE: BS: US Thanksgiving--Debate
From: Lizzie Cornish 1
Date: 19 Nov 12 - 02:53 PM

"...The first Thanksgiving Day did occur in the year 1637, but it was nothing like our Thanksgiving today. On that day the Massachusetts Colony Governor, John Winthrop, proclaimed such a "Thanksgiving" to celebrate the safe return of a band of heavily armed hunters, all colonial volunteers. They had just returned from their journey to what is now Mystic, Connecticut where they massacred 700 Pequot Indians. Seven hundred Indians - men, women and children - all murdered....."


Taken from here

Greg, I'm not sure which part you don't understand...
The folks on my page aren't just 'facebook non-entities', they are deeply determined people who are out to change the world. Over 3,000 of them came over from the Occupy Wall Street page last year....

They phone Embassies, share out one helluva lot of information, ring up The White House, if I ask them, on behalf of Leonard, they phone up Norte Energia, the banks concerned in financing Belo Monte etc.etc.etc...Hell,they even made a video! Nadine, from Lebanon made it, and many of them were actually in it, after they'd sent their film to her and she put it all together. Norte Energia got to hear about it and were hopping mad too...(YAYYY!)

...and they have helped hugely in signing and sharing petitions and donating for the Ecocide campaign and the Save Pe'Sla one too...

And before you poopoo petitions, did you know that Rousseff ONLY backed down over the shocking situation regarding the Guarani-Kaiowa tribe a few weeks back PURELY because of the petition that whizzed around the planet in days??????? The tribe had said they wanted to die, altogether, rather than be forced off their land, so she backed down...

Hopefully, she'll back down over Belo Monte too eventually, for she's have it built illegally....

Some folks even want to get down there, have done demonstrations in their countries etc...

South Dakota? Nothing I'd like more than to take Richard Branson to Pine Ridge and get him to sort it all out, get decent food in there, decent shops, swimming pool, cinema, etc..something for the young people to do, give them hope at long last.

With regard to Pe'Sla, the Great Sioux Nation has come together to raise $7.5 million of the $9 million need to buy it. The last Pe'Sla 'push' raised nearly $400,000 in around a month, from good folks all over the world and now we're trying to raise that final $1 million or so...only got 11 days left, but hopefully, somehow, the money will come from somewhere...

I wrote to the auction house when Pe'Sla was up for auction backalong, asked them to beg Mr. and Mrs. Reynolds to give the land back to the Lakota, to whom it belongs anyway....Never heard back, but a few days later they DID pull Pe'Sla out of the auction with no explanation at all. I'd imagine MANY folks wrote to them...maybe they passed the messages along? Maybe they didn't and it happened because of other reasons, but either way, to lose it now, when they are so desperately close would break their hearts....

I wrote to Paul McCartney recently, as someone asked me to, trying to raise a gig with some major stars in for Leonard..Paul donated to Pine Ridge backalong when they had the tornado rip through there causing so much damage...

Stop being so up your own arse and get helping too, for the Lakota are missing Russell Means I'd imagine and they need us all to help now!

As for Pe'Sla, well, that's in good hands and AIM are in there doing all they can do, so hopefully it WILL all come together...

And now, back to Thanksgiving which would be nice if it were turned into a special day where Thanks is Given not just for family, friends and food, but for the fact that the Native Americans are still around, still here despite all they've come through..and that is cause for celebration in itself!

Happy Native American Month too!


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Subject: RE: BS: US Thanksgiving--Debate
From: Greg F.
Date: 19 Nov 12 - 03:53 PM

As I said before , Liz - or should I say Wasichu Buffalo Woman? - way past time for you to get over how important you think you are.

Like I said- get out of cyberspace & actually do something worthwhile for the cause.

Ta.


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Subject: RE: BS: US Thanksgiving--Debate
From: Lizzie Cornish 1
Date: 19 Nov 12 - 04:31 PM

Ah, but you see, IN cyberspace, I can reach tens of thousands of people all around the world..get many to stand beside me, and piss others off.

Keep your Native American name, as I would never disrespect the Native Americans by ever taking on any part of their life. I'm not a New Age Crystal Gazer, but someone who has the Deepest Respect for a People who ARE 'Still Here' against ALL the Odds....

I'm not important at all, Greg, but I sure as hell don't let twits like you patronize me, nor criticize me for what I DO do, whilst you just hang around on messageboards wasting hours....

DO something with your Cyberspace time, because you know what, inside this screen, inside this Internet there is a Revolution happening, one that is finding its' way on to the Streets, and one where The Truth is being shared, right around the planet...

It is this that is giving the Native Americans, or American Indians as Russell preferred to be called, a VOICE at long last.

Right around the world Indigenous Peoples are coming together now finally realizing that this will give them great strength.....

They are being joined by many non-indigenous who are standing right beside them, knowing that the Indigenous Peoples of the World have the right attitude to Mother Earth. That many of them are The Caretakers of this Planet and have been so for generations...

There is a Secret War being carried out against them now, globally and they are Rising up in Anger..

So don't just celebrate your Turkey, celebrate the Indigenous People of the country you came to be born in and perhaps, LEARN from their Wisdom....

Here's Russell, from 1989, to give you a helping hand when changing the discussion around your Thanksgiving Table on Thursday...


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Subject: RE: BS: US Thanksgiving--Debate
From: Greg F.
Date: 19 Nov 12 - 05:27 PM

When you get to Rapid City, Liz, give me a call. I'll meet you & run you over to Pine Ridge & Rosebud & introduce you around.


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Subject: RE: BS: US Thanksgiving--Debate
From: Lizzie Cornish 1
Date: 19 Nov 12 - 06:18 PM

I would love to do that, Greg...but as I cannot afford to get over to the States at this particular time in my life, I'll remain helping via the internet, thanks...But, I tell you what, if ever I AM able to come, take me to White Clay and let me rage at the Corporate Alcohol Bastards who are bringing Genocide to the Lakota...and I promise you I will surprise you, for any Ladylike Language will disappear when I talk to the bastards who are selling hundreds of thousands of cans of alcohol to those people, who are struggling so badly without bloody alcohol, but with it, they are being decimated!! And those bastards don't care fecking tuppence!!


And, before sitting down to your Thanksgiving Meal, please, watch this..It may well make you cry, for Aaron himself chokes back the tears many times as he speaks of the People he has come to love so dearly...

Aaron Huey speaking at TED about The Lakota

'Honour The Treaties' - Trailer for Aaron's film


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Subject: RE: BS: US Thanksgiving--Debate
From: Wesley S
Date: 19 Nov 12 - 07:31 PM

" I'll remain helping via the internet, thanks.."

Gee thanks....

My grandmother was native American. And as far as I'm concerned Lizzie you'd be doing a lot more good if you were off stuffing your bird instead of ragging on America. Clean up England first and then we'll call you for help.


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Subject: RE: BS: US Thanksgiving--Debate
From: MarkS
Date: 19 Nov 12 - 10:09 PM

Kentucky Hot Browns.
Thats reason enough to have a Thanksgiving Day,

Hey Spaw - post your recepie again in case anybody missed it the
first time!


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Subject: RE: BS: US Thanksgiving--Debate
From: Greg F.
Date: 19 Nov 12 - 10:10 PM

One more time: get over yourself, Liz. You're as obnoxious as ever, and its getting mononotous.

No thanks, Liz - I know more - and at first hand - than you do about the Lakota & their history & plight than you will ever learn & I don't need to watch your video clips.

And when I sit down to my Thanksgiving meal I will most certainly NOT be thinking of you and your rivers of self-serving bullshit.

Call me when you get to Rapid City, OK?


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Subject: RE: BS: US Thanksgiving--Debate
From: Henry Krinkle
Date: 19 Nov 12 - 10:37 PM

You watch your mouth, Greg. Mind your manners.
=(:-( ))


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Subject: RE: BS: US Thanksgiving--Debate
From: Henry Krinkle
Date: 20 Nov 12 - 12:23 AM

Should negroes celebrate Thankgiving? Should they be grateful for the slaveships? The 400 years of degradation? I'm confused.
=(:-( o)


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Subject: RE: BS: US Thanksgiving--Debate
From: Henry Krinkle
Date: 20 Nov 12 - 12:32 AM

Kentucky Hot Brown. I'm from there you know.
Brown


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Subject: RE: BS: US Thanksgiving--Debate
From: Dave the Gnome
Date: 20 Nov 12 - 01:37 AM

Keep it up, Henry. Enough spurious nonsense about who should and should not celebrate Thanksgiving and more people will realise what a riduculous concept holding holidays to ransom for political means is, In fact, I propose that the only people who should celebrate Thanksgiving are Quakers and the direct decendents of those who received their first free turket dinner off the Indians.

Yea, thinking about it what has it got to do with anyone but them? All those freeloading Native Americans, Poles, Jews, Irish, Italians, Germans, Blacks, Hispanics and sundry ne'er do wells should go and find their own holidays! Bugger off, the lot of you!

DtG


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Subject: RE: BS: US Thanksgiving--Debate
From: Lizzie Cornish 1
Date: 20 Nov 12 - 04:56 AM

Well, if I get this kind of hatred from you, Greg, god knows what you'd say to those on Pine Ridge who, I'm sure won't be celebrating Thanksgiving Day for the same reasons you might be...

but hey, never mind, you know far more than me right....

And if you can't even be bothered to watch the videos I put up earlier, well, it shows me just what kind of pretentious prat you are...You don't wanna listen to Aaron Huey, then fine, stick your turkey on your head and have a good day...

Wesley, if your Mum was Native American, then I think she'd be hanging her head at your words there...I'll keep on keeping on with what I'm doing thanks, and I've said many times over that the UK needs to apologise for all the shite they took around the world..

Enjoy your meal...


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Subject: RE: BS: US Thanksgiving--Debate
From: Jeri
Date: 20 Nov 12 - 06:34 AM

The British have a history of telling people (other than them) in places they've colonized how to live and behave.* Lizzie is just continuing the tradition. I just don't think she will ever figure it out. Not that tendency to meddle, nor the fact that the only thing you change by pissing people off is creating a group of pissed off people who will no longer listen to you.

You'll get a lot of attention and you get to avoid taking care of business in your personal world for a while though. Have fun with the dominant/submissive games.

It's just another version of "holier-than-thou".

It's impersonal. You get to talk about your ideals and people who are not your people in a land that is not your land, far, far away from your own life.

Or perhaps you think your attempt to shame people will do something positive, but it doesn't make sense to me... (I note that "making sense" is probably not one of your main goals.)

* All nations with the upper hand do that. The British were prominent in America though, and Lizzie's carrying their standard in this thread. Same know-it-all shit/different venue.


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Subject: RE: BS: US Thanksgiving--Debate
From: Henry Krinkle
Date: 20 Nov 12 - 06:41 AM

You people need to free Scotland and Ireland. England needs to quit meddling.
Bastards.
=(:-( ))


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Subject: RE: BS: US Thanksgiving--Debate
From: catspaw49
Date: 20 Nov 12 - 06:48 AM

KRINKLE......We were talking aabout Hot Brown here a dozen years before you arrived. I've eaten it for years all over Kentucky and Tennessee. Everyone seems to have their own ttake on the original recipe and I started sort of collecting them and adding to my own......just experimenting. I kept the parts I liked and threw out what I didn't. And now, like most cooks, I think I make a killer Brown. That's the beauty of such a great dish.......It can be done in many ways and still retain the essence of the original.

Here's mine posted back in 2000.....Gets pretty good reviews {:<))

BTW Krinkly.......Somewhere else you asked if I was in KY. No, in Ohio. But I lived in both Kentucky and Tennesee for a good while and went to college at Berea. I love both states but I'm a Buckeye, born and bred.


Spaw


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Subject: RE: BS: US Thanksgiving--Debate
From: Henry Krinkle
Date: 20 Nov 12 - 07:08 AM

I used to see the Brown Hotel from the highway when I visited as a child. I was born in Louisville.
=(:-( ))


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Subject: RE: BS: US Thanksgiving--Debate
From: Henry Krinkle
Date: 20 Nov 12 - 07:12 AM

I've never eaten it before. Maybe I will this year.
=(:-( P)


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Subject: RE: BS: US Thanksgiving--Debate
From: Dave the Gnome
Date: 20 Nov 12 - 08:06 AM

I really am confused now. Why do the American Indians need to free Scotland and Ireland?

DtG


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Subject: RE: BS: US Thanksgiving--Debate
From: kendall
Date: 20 Nov 12 - 08:20 AM

There is only one way this thread can go...round and round.

Just curious, Lizzie, do you know the real meaning and the origin of the word "Decimated"? I dare say most of us don't.


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