BS: Syria: the new nightmare?

Subject: RE: BS: Syria: the new nightmare?
From: bobad
Date: 15 Dec 16 - 01:23 PM

A powerful piece on the fall of Aleppo by Canadian author and journalist Terry Glavin:


The fall of Aleppo shows us exactly what we have become
Published on: December 14, 2016 | Last Updated: December 14, 2016 12:54 PM EST

Aleppo has fallen. The last and sturdiest bastion of the Syrian uprising is gone. The Battle of Aleppo is over, the revolution is finished, and the Syrian mass murderer Bashar Assad has won. Russia has won. Iran has won. Hezbollah has won. The United States has lost. The United Nations has lost, and the bloody war in Syria, already having taken nearly half a million lives, goes on.

Aleppo mattered, it should go without saying, but it's worthwhile enumerating what did not matter. You can start with Aleppo's 31,000 dead and proceed from there through each and every statutory war crime codified by the International Criminal Court.

Mass murder by chlorine gas. Massacres of innocents. Bombardments by Russian jet fighters. The deliberate targeting of hospitals and clinics. The firing of mortar rounds into crowded neighbourhoods. The terror of barrel bombs dropped from Syrian army helicopters. The starvation siege that followed the city's encirclement by Shia death squads and Assadist militias on Sept. 8.

None of that mattered, not the hourly imagery on Instagram and Youtube and Twitter of corpse-strewn streets and decapitated infants, and not the gut-wrenching final goodbyes uploaded to mobile phones or sent by text from the survivors in the rebel-held ruins of the Old City, the al-Shaar district, and the backstreets of Sheikh Saeed.

Leaning against a wall, his tattered Adidas hoodie drawn against the rain, the young English teacher, reporter and activist Abdulkafi Al-Hamdo managed to use his cellphone camera to upload his goodbye to the video-streaming service Periscope on Monday night.

"What I want to say is, don't believe anymore in the United Nations. Don't believe anymore in the international community. Don't think that they are not satisfied with what's going on. They are satisfied that we are being killed, that we are facing one of the most difficult, or the most serious, or the most horrible massacres that is in our history.

"Russia doesn't want us to go out alive. They want us dead. Assad is the same … but at least we know that we were a free people. We wanted freedom. We didn't want anything else but freedom. You know, this world doesn't like freedom, it seems."

There is no plausible defence any of us can mount against Al-Hambdo's plain-spoken indictment. In the world's citadels of democracy, there are no popular constituencies sufficient to the task of commanding our elected leaders to put their backs into the emancipation of the Syrian people from their tormentors. After all, you know, quagmire and all that. Broach the subject of NATO enforcing a modicum of order in the Syrian abattoir by means of, say, a no-fly zone, and you'll be denounced as a warmonger in the mould of the arch-villains George W. Bush and Tony Blair.
Related

The truth of it is we'd just rather not take the trouble. We aren't prepared to suffer the sacrifices demanded of the commitments to universal rights we profess, so we absolve ourselves by talking about "the Muslim world" as though it were a distant planet. We talk about Arabs as though they were a different species. It's easier on the conscience that way.

Between the drooling bigotries of the isolationist Right and the clever platitudes of the "anti-imperialist" Left, the only place left to address the solemn obligations we owe one another as human beings is in negotiations over the codicils of international trade agreements, or in the rituals of deliberately unenforceable resolutions entertained by the United Nations General Assembly.

Just last Friday, Foreign Affairs Minister Stéphane Dion and his diplomats conducted just such a ceremony in sponsoring a non-binding General Assembly resolution demanding an immediate cessation of hostilities in Syria, humanitarian aid access throughout the country, and an end to the siege of Aleppo. It passed, 122 to 13. This is what counts these days as a diplomatic coup.

Canadian Ambassador to the UN Marc-André Blanchard was pleased to claim that the resolution was already having an effect even before it was voted on, because the day before, Russia announced it was temporarily halting its bombing of Aleppo and had even offered to open corridors to allow civilians to flee. This is what counts these days as a diplomatic triumph.

The UN human rights office later announced that it had received credible reports that hundreds of men who crossed into Aleppo's regime-controlled districts had gone missing. Young men were being pulled out of the line at the corridor checkpoints. The Consultative Council in the Levant Front, one of Aleppo's main rebel groups, reported that the men had been taken to "warehouses that look more like internment camps."

The Syrian Observatory for Human Rights reckons that 60,000 Syrians have been starved to death, tortured to death or executed in Assad's prisons since the non-violent democratic uprising began in February, 2011. Relying on regime defectors and insiders, the Observatory has verified 14,446 deaths at a single facility, Sednaya prison, near Damascus.

And now Aleppo is undergoing what UN humanitarians spokesman Jens Laerke calls "a complete meltdown of humanity." The still-living lie with the dead in the rubble of bombed-out buildings. You can hear them screaming. Regime militias are carrying out mass executions of civilians. In one case, 11 women and 13 children were shot "on the spot." Women are committing suicide rather than face the prospect of rape and murder.

A planned evacuation of perhaps 100,000 civilians and rebel fighters from East Aleppo was heralded as a diplomatic breakthrough on Tuesday, following the abject surrender by all of Aleppo's remaining rebels – hardline Islamists and democratic patriots alike. By Wednesday morning, the Russian-Turkish understanding had fallen through, the glimmer of hope had flickered out, the barrel bombs and mortar shells were raining down on Aleppo again, and from the people, those gut-wrenching final goodbyes – "Pray for us," "I hope you can remember us" – were going out to the world again.

"Save us, people. Save us, people, world, anyone who has even a bit of humanity. We beg you, we beg you," a doctor pleaded, "the dead and wounded are in the streets and people's homes have collapsed on top of them. Save us. Save us."

But that young English teacher, Abdulkafi Al-Hamdo, knows better. He doesn't believe anymore in the United Nations. He doesn't believe anymore in the international community.

Perhaps Allah will look down in his mercy upon Aleppo, because no help is coming from us. None. This is what we have become. This is the depravity to which we have all sunk.

Aleppo has fallen.

Subject: RE: BS: Syria: the new nightmare?
From: Teribus
Date: 27 Nov 16 - 11:17 AM

Needle stuck Jim?

I suppose that you do have nothing left to say, having proved on this thread that you are a fool and a liar. Same could be said of your efforts on the "No poppies" thread as well.

Subject: RE: BS: Syria: the new nightmare?
From: Jim Carroll
Date: 27 Nov 16 - 10:33 AM

A reminder
"every time you mention the name Woodcock I know I've got through to you and you are getting rattled.""
Carroll
Really Carroll
Keep floundering about Carroll
So all in all Christmas
For JOM:
Christmas
No need for reminders JOM I have nothing but the utmost contempt for you and everything you stand for. Not many humans wander this planet without one single redeeming feature - you seem to have managed that without even trying.
The Truth according to JOM - thick as shit and proud of it
I will repeat IT YET AGAIN FOR THE BENEFIT OF THOSE AMONG US WHO ARE TOO BLOODY THICK TO UNDERSTAND PLAIN ENGLISH (i.e. YOU RAGGY)
"complete and utter buffoon"
"That by the way THICKO "
"clueless ignoramus of truly astounding degree"
"Carroll"
"Have you found an echo JOM?"
Or have you always wandered through life making a complete and utter JOM-like CUNT of yourself?
Carroll
"Here is a link for you Jom:"
"By the way JOM"
"how boastful a man can get doesn't it JOM?"
"Don't worry JOM"
You really should read our own posts sometime - it would help avoid the foot-in-mouths - the "Rattle of an Simple Man", as the screenplay writer described it.

Subject: RE: BS: Syria: the new nightmare?
From: Teribus
Date: 27 Nov 16 - 10:22 AM

Only person with their foot in their mouth in this discussion Carroll is you.

You are at the stage now where you cannot even fix it in your own mind what it is I was supposed to have lied about. First it's this and then it's that - you're making a complete and utter fool of yourself throwing accusations about like confetti based upon your own misinterpretation and misunderstanding of an newspaper article which explains why, when asked to give the reference to the post of mine where I lied you are unable to do so.

Subject: RE: BS: Homs horror
From: GUEST,Teribus - PM
Date: 18 Mar 12 - 04:10 AM

Your contention was that British supplied weapons were slaughtering civilians in Homs - The inference you were hoping to get across was that the British Government had supplied weapons that the Assad regime was using on its own people and that the British Government were fully aware of this.

After digging around it has been shown quite conclusively that:

1: The British Government has sold no weapons to Syria - The Truth

2: That the 154 export licences issued by the British Government for anything being exported to Syria were all revoked in line with EU rules - According to Carroll this is me denying that any export licence was ever issued

3: There are no records of sale or delivery of the ammunition mentioned in your Daily Mail article - The Truth

Now then Jim which of those three points is incorrect and where is your proof that confirms any of being incorrect?
Where and when have I ever denied that an export licence was issued?

The Daily Mail Article

Subject: RE: BS: Syria: the new nightmare?
From: Jim Carroll
Date: 27 Nov 16 - 05:00 AM

A reminder
"every time you mention the name Woodcock I know I've got through to you and you are getting rattled.""
Really Carroll
Keep floundering about Carroll
So all in all Christmas
For JOM:
Christmas
No need for reminders JOM I have nothing but the utmost contempt for you and everything you stand for. Not many humans wander this planet without one single redeeming feature - you seem to have managed that without even trying.
The Truth according to JOM - thick as shit and proud of it
I will repeat IT YET AGAIN FOR THE BENEFIT OF THOSE AMONG US WHO ARE TOO BLOODY THICK TO UNDERSTAND PLAIN ENGLISH (i.e. YOU RAGGY)
"complete and utter buffoon"
"That by the way THICKO "
"clueless ignoramus of truly astounding degree"
"Carroll"
"Have you found an echo JOM?"
Or have you always wandered through life making a complete and utter JOM-like CUNT of yourself?
Carroll
"Here is a link for you Jom:"
"By the way JOM"
"how boastful a man can get doesn't it JOM?"
"Don't worry JOM"
You really should read our own posts sometime - it would help avoid the foot-in-mouths - the "Rattle of an Simple Man", as the screenplay writer described it.

Subject: RE: BS: Syria: the new nightmare?
From: Teribus
Date: 27 Nov 16 - 03:07 AM

"No it wasn't - you denied there was any record of the sale and then you lied about having ever said such a thing - you lied"

Really Carroll? Is this another stick that you have grabbed the wrong end of? By the way, as you seem to be losing the place yet again, the "lie" you originally accused me of was denying that an export licence was issued - now apparently I am being accused of lying by stating the truth.

The undeniable fact is that there are no records of any sale, otherwise you would have produced them and quoted them over 4 years ago to substantiate your claim - you failed to do so then because they don't exist. The only thing that your Daily Mail article mentioned was that an export licence had been granted, no mention of any sale, only one of the things you got wrong and totally misunderstood when you read the article. Your contention was that the British Government had sold weapons to the Assad regime - that Carroll was a deliberate misrepresentation, in short a lie.

Jim Carroll - 26 Nov 16 - 07:55 AM - No reference in this post to any post of mine where it can be shown that I have lied. Tell me Jim why is it that you cannot back up your statements?

Keep floundering about Carroll

Example of quoting something that I have posted:

Subject: RE: BS: Homs horror
From: GUEST,Teribus - PM
Date: 18 Mar 12 - 04:10 AM

Your contention was that British supplied weapons were slaughtering civilians in Homs - The inference you were hoping to get across was that the British Government had supplied weapons that the Assad regime was using on its own people and that the British Government were fully aware of this.

After digging around it has been shown quite conclusively that:

1: The British Government has sold no weapons to Syria - The Truth

2: That the 154 export licences issued by the British Government for anything being exported to Syria were all revoked in line with EU rules - According to Carroll this is me denying that any export licence was ever issued

3: There are no records of sale or delivery of the ammunition mentioned in your Daily Mail article - The Truth


So all in all Christmas your deliberate falsehood was examined and found wanting on just about every level going. Rather than admitting to making a mistake, an act which appears to be beyond your integrity, and clarifying your position, you dug your heels in attempted to defend the impossible (in which exercise you failed) and started throwing insults about and then complained when they were hurled back at you.

Subject: RE: BS: Syria: the new nightmare?
From: Jim Carroll
Date: 26 Nov 16 - 07:55 AM

"That was when you were still insisting that the ammunition in question had been delivered and was being used to kill civilians in Homs"
No it wasn't - you denied there was any record of the sale and then you lied about having ever said such a thing - you lied
"Ah, so in short, you have no proof at all that the British Government sold anything to the Assad regime in Syria."
And there it is again - double proof of your lying
Checkmate
"Your story in the Homs thread changed"
On;ly in the sense that my information was addes to while I searched for more information.
As you provided none, none came from you.
You changed your argument at least half a dozen times - you have a list.
"Still waiting for the post of mine where I deny that any export licence was ever granted."
You've just had it (again) this time you supplied it yourself.
Own goal and checkmate.
Maybe we'll get a response to the list of the other half-dozen occasions you have lie4d - why quit when you're on a roll?
Come back when the pubs close (but I suggest you sleep it off this time)
Jim Carroll

Subject: RE: BS: Syria: the new nightmare?
From: Teribus
Date: 26 Nov 16 - 02:26 AM

"Except the documented small arms ammunition"
Documented where?? A news paper?? The Daily Mail eh? Are you serious?"

That was when you were still insisting that the ammunition in question had been delivered and was being used to kill civilians in Homs. Your story in the Homs thread changed as I have stated below from British Weapons sent by the British Government to Assad to finally you stating that all that had happened was that a licence had been issued. You have yet to prove that a single round was ever sent to Syria.

But just for the record and to put things in context here is the full exchange:

Subject: RE: BS: Homs horror
From: Teribus - PM
Date: 20 Mar 12 - 07:06 PM

Ah, so in short, you have no proof at all that the British Government sold anything to the Assad regime in Syria. It was just something you read in a newspaper, and having read the passage you misunderstood it and got it all wrong - something that I bet is not too unusual for you.

Subject: RE: BS: Homs horror
From: Jim Carroll - PM
Date: 21 Mar 12 - 07:14 AM

"WHO HAS SUPPLIED NOTHING TO SYRIA!" Teribus from a previous post
Except the documented small arms ammunition - as you say, sniper bullets
Nothing else new then?

What you are arguing there Jim Carroll is that the ammunition was supplied by the British Government and sent to Syria and that Carroll is a barefaced lie. One that you were pulled up on.

Still waiting for the post of mine where I deny that any export licence was ever granted.

Thanks Steve, I'll try harder next time.

Subject: RE: BS: Syria: the new nightmare?
From: Steve Shaw
Date: 25 Nov 16 - 07:31 PM

Jaysus. I can't resist.

"Carroll is not very good at arguing against hard fact, but there again neither are you Shaw, in Jim Carroll's own words {paraphrased} your argument is so poor you have to resort to picking up typo's."

Well, Bill, there should be a full stop after "Shaw" and a capital letter to start the next sentence. And where did that apostrophe in "typo's" come from?! 😂

It pays to ignore punctuation and spelling glitches as long as they don't cloud the meaning. If you choose to pick them up, be prepared to have your own mistakes highlighted. You make plenty, and, generally, no-one bothers to pick you up. Do feel free to highlight mine. I'm not bothered.

Subject: RE: BS: Syria: the new nightmare?
From: Jim Carroll
Date: 25 Nov 16 - 12:42 PM

"where you started out by stating that the United Kingdom {As in the UK Government} had supplied Assad with weapons."
I posted a piece of information about ammunition - Keith chipped in with "all you could come up with was a few sniper rifles".
I also pointed out the supplying of armoured cars, water cannon and other riot control equipment - you can pedantically claim they are not weapons if you wish - ask the people they were used on what they were.
"Now Jim asks me "Will this do?" - Do for what?"
You lied when you said you had not denied that a licence had been issued - that's what
Want it again?
THere you go!

"Except the documented small arms ammunition"
Documented where?? A news paper?? The Daily Mail eh? Are you serious?"
That'll do for another verbatim example of your having lied that you requested elsewhere.
To repeat now piss off
Jim Carroll

Subject: RE: BS: Syria: the new nightmare?
From: Teribus
Date: 25 Nov 16 - 12:28 PM

Of course Shaw - "your" instead of "you're" - truly worthy of comment.

Now in your socks and open-toed sandal wearing teacher mode Shaw what do you make of this:

"Even if I id get the denialo of the license being issued - which I didn't, there are half a dozen more excuses you have offered and have been admitted to by your silence on them." - Jim Carroll

It appears our paragon of the UK's educational system simply gave that a pass.

Guess I'll just have to start correcting Jim's papers whenever he posts eh Shaw? He has never liked me doing that in the past and accused me of talking down to him.

Now Jim asks me "Will this do?" - Do for what?

Now the Homs Thread where you started out by stating that the United Kingdom {As in the UK Government} had supplied Assad with weapons.

This was a gross misrepresentation, or in other words a lie, that Keith A of Hertford, 999 and myself pulled Jim up on.

So as the thread progressed Jim changed his story - He then changed it to the United Kingdom {As in the UK Government} had supplied Assad with ammunition - ANOTHER LIE that he was pulled up on by Keith A and myself.

Finally towards the end of the thread we get the admission from Jim:

Subject: RE: BS: Homs horror
From: Jim Carroll - PM
Date: 22 Mar 12 - 07:18 AM

"The total of my evidence is that Britain licensed an order of small arms ammunition.......

Now that is one hell of a change of story from the UK Government supplying Assad with weapons being used to kill Syrian civilians in Homs in 2012 to the British Department of Trade granting an export licence to a private individual for £30,000 worth of small arms ammunition in 2009 without one shred of evidence that the order ever went through or that the goods were ever delivered. Only took a thread of about 750 posts to convince the gormless lying prat to tell the truth, but he still keeps trying to resurrect his myths and lies.

Carroll is not very good at arguing against hard fact, but there again neither are you Shaw, in Jim Carroll's own words {paraphrased} your argument is so poor you have to resort to picking up typo's.

Subject: RE: BS: Syria: the new nightmare?
From: Jim Carroll
Date: 25 Nov 16 - 10:06 AM

" your at the stage of almost needing an interpreter."
Didn't notice that Steve - thanks
You couldn't make it up!!
Jim Carroll

Subject: RE: BS: Syria: the new nightmare?
From: Steve Shaw
Date: 25 Nov 16 - 09:45 AM

"You should be charged with massacring the English language - your at the stage of almost needing an interpreter."

Oh, how delicious is that! 😂😂😂

Subject: RE: BS: Syria: the new nightmare?
From: Jim Carroll
Date: 25 Nov 16 - 07:33 AM

Will this Do


Subject: RE: BS: Homs horror
From: Teribus - PM
Date: 21 Mar 12 - 03:03 PM

"Except the documented small arms ammunition"

Documented where?? A news paper?? The Daily Mail eh? Are you serious?
Now piss off
Jim Carroll

Subject: RE: BS: Syria: the new nightmare?
From: Teribus
Date: 25 Nov 16 - 06:49 AM

For someone who types and posts the following:

"Even if I id get the denialo of the license being issued - which I didn't, there are half a dozen more excuses you have offered and have been admitted to by your silence on them."

To then post:

" never mind the bullshit, if you want to discuss it, do so with proof to back it yup - otherwise, lie down - you're dead - or drunk maybe?"

Only an observation, but it would appear that it is you who needs to either lay off the sauce or start taking more water with it. You should be charged with massacring the English language - your at the stage of almost needing an interpreter.

Now then Jim where and when did I ever state that no export licence had been issued?

Simple enough question - bet I will get no response from Jim Carroll because Jim Carroll just makes up shit and here he is having been caught out doing it again.

Subject: RE: BS: Syria: the new nightmare?
From: Jim Carroll
Date: 25 Nov 16 - 06:17 AM

Load of crap again Teribus
It's all on Homs Horror
Your pathetic musical garbage is an attempt to avoid every single point I have just made
Even if I id get the denialo of the license being issued - which I didn't, there are half a dozen more excuses you have offered and have been admitted to by your silence on them.
The situation in Syria is exactly as I outlined - never mind the bullshit, if you want to discuss it, do so with proof to back it yup - otherwise, lie down - you're dead - or drunk maybe?
Jim Carroll

Subject: RE: BS: Syria: the new nightmare?
From: Teribus
Date: 25 Nov 16 - 05:10 AM

"I supplied evidence of the licence being issued - you denied it then provided haldf a dozen contradictory excuses - it was issued but withdrawn, it was issued and the shipment never took place, the ammunition was for sporting rifles, it was sent too early to be used at Homs, it was the wrong size for the Syrian Sniper's weapons and now back to it was never issued in the first place - with the new addition that all licences were revoked in 2010."

Old ground that has been gone over before - but Jim Carroll once again misrepresents - those reading this forum have been shown very clearly another example of this sort of behaviour on another thread.

Now tell us where the contradictory statements are Jim.

1: Where and when did I ever deny that an export licence was issued? Jim Carroll lie and misrepresentation #1

2: All export licences related to goods being sent to Syria were revoked by the British Government in 2010. IIRC the EU followed suit shortly after. That is fact and does in no way contradict anything previously stated.

3: The licence was issued by the British Government but there has never been any evidence put forward that any ammunition was ever shipped by the individual who applied for and received the export licence. Still no contradictions there Jim

4: "the ammunition was for sporting rifles" Ehmmm No Jim the ammunition can be used in sporting rifles mere fact, 7.62x51mm Standard NATO ammunition can be used in some 0.308 calibre rifles, I should know I own two rifles of that calibre one can fire standard NATO rounds, the other cannot it has to fire 0.308 WIN.Still no contradictions there Jim

5: it was sent too early to be used at Homs Licence issued in 2009, export licences revoked in 2010, so IF it was ever sent then it had to have been sent two years before any civil unrest broke out in Syria. The value declared on the licence was £30,000 which would equate to around 110,000 rounds - minute amount if you are supplying an Army and a Police Force. Mere observation on examination of facts and proposed theories - Still no contradictions Jim

6: "it was the wrong size for the Syrian Sniper's weapons" Simple statement of fact when you consider that Russia supplies Assad with all his weapons and has done since 1967. Russian weapons of that calibre fire a 7.62x39mm round, NATO weapons of that calibre fire 7.62x51mm rounds - NATO rounds are 12mm too long for the chamber of the weapons used by Assad's forces - Still no contradictions Jim

7: "and now back to it was never issued in the first place" - Where? When? Repetition of Jim Carroll Lie #1.

A musical question for you Jim. On which Rolling Stones album do you think Walter Pardon performed best as lead singer?

Subject: RE: BS: Syria: the new nightmare?
From: Jim Carroll
Date: 25 Nov 16 - 04:28 AM

"You have no proof whatsoever that ammunition was EVER supplied, "
I supplied evidence of the licence being issued - you denied it then provided haldf a dozen contradictory excuses - it was issued but withdrawn, it was issued and the shipment never took place, the ammunition was for sporting rifles, it was sent too early to be used at Homs, it was the wrong size for the Syrian Sniper's weapons and now back to it was never issued in the first place - with the new addition that all licences were revoked in 2010.
You also asked, with your usual charm and grace how the "the U.K. could possibly have known what was going on in Syria without the aid of a crystal ball".
That's an impressive list of excuses - even for you.
It's a pity that not a single one of them came with a shred of documented evidence
The World, Britain included, had the Amnesty Report of the tortures and mass murders long before trouble broke out in the Arab countries - they said nothing, did nothing and continued as if nothing was happening.
When Assad's men deserted him and fled abroad they begged Britain to use economic and political pressure to stop the killing - they pointed out Assad's personal ties and respect for Britain - those pleas were ignored.
The Syrian deserters suggested that Britain could seize the millions of pounds worth of property owned by the Assad family in London - those suggestions were totally ignored and, throughout the Homs massacres, Assad's gofer brother-in-law visited London regularly going about Assad's business - nothing was done to prevent him.
Britain wrung their hands in horror at the street massacres in Homs and did precisely NOTHING
Given the proved reputation of the Assad regime, they should hev beed sold nothing
Britain was condemned internationally for its sale of chemicals at the time Assad was found to be using chemicals - there was never a suggestion that they could not be used for weapons, just the word of the Syrians that they were for "toothpaste"
Such materials should never have been sold to the mass murderer Assad was known to be.
Britain sold riot control equipment, water cannons and armoured cars that were used to crush the Syrian protests - an undisputed fact.
The equipment sold by Britain and used in Syrian prisons were electrical hand generators (Meggers).
They are a common piece of electrical test equipment in the electrical trade (I used one regularly and still have one here).
Their use as instruments for interrogation is long established - cheap and convenient, leaving no scars - the faster you wind the handle, the greater the electric shock - even eejits like Teribus could master the technique in a matter of minutes.
ASSAD IS A KNOW FASCIST DESPOT - HE SHOULD NOT HAVE BEEN SOLD ANYTHING - HE WAS ONE OF BRITAIN'S LONG TERM TRADING PARTNERS AND, SHOULD HE TRIUMPH IN SYRIA, NO DOUBT WILL BE AGAIN
"We do do trade and we do do trade in armaments with Governments that are not democratic and have bad human rights records""
Vince Cable Trade Minister.
Committee on Arms Control evidence 7th February, 2012"
Syria is one of those Governments
There - said it all again - for the last time
Jim Carroll

Subject: RE: BS: Syria: the new nightmare?
From: Teribus
Date: 25 Nov 16 - 03:00 AM

The article that Iains has provided the link for seems highly implausible and is undoubtedly biased.

Unrest in Syria has always boiled away just below the surface, the secular Ba'athist regime in Syria run by the minority Alawites ruled the country by fear and repression in exactly the same way that the Ba'athist regime did in Iraq before the toppling of Saddam Hussein.

It was an unprovoked assault by a police officer on a man in January 2011 that sparked off unrest and civil disobedience in Syria. The Daraa raid was a raid by the Syrian police to arrest 15 children who were suspected of daubing walls with anti-government/anti-Assad slogans. The first deaths were the result of police officers firing on a civilian crowd of demonstrators from inside ambulances. I wonder why Jad Nasr and Ms Kortwright found it essential to omit that part of the tragedy from their article.

Subject: RE: BS: Syria: the new nightmare?
From: Teribus
Date: 25 Nov 16 - 02:32 AM

"The evidence of Assad's crimes have been produced and are fully accepted by the world" - Jim Carroll

I do not think that any disputes that statement.

The dispute centres around your Walter Pardon and the Rolling Stones claims about the British Government supplying Assad with the means with which to carry out his democide.

1: You have no proof whatsoever that ammunition was EVER supplied, only that ONE export licence was issued in 2009. ALL export licences were revoked in 2010 and the uprising and civil unrest did not start in Syria until 2011.

2: BIS conducted an investigation into the chemicals sent to Syria and found that the quantity supplied matched production of the products by the "end user" companies stated on the export documentation. Those chemicals exported to Syria between 2004 and 2010 could therefore not possibly have been used in the manufacture of chemical weapons used by Assad since 2012.

3: Jim Carroll also claimed and provided a link that he claimed stated that electrical good supplied from a company in the UK had been used by the Assad regime to torture rebel prisoners and sympathisers - the report by the NGO he provided a link to of course stated nothing of the sort.

Subject: RE: BS: Syria: the new nightmare?
From: Jim Carroll
Date: 24 Nov 16 - 08:18 AM

"This does not quite follow your narrative Jim."
Neither does it contradict the masses of real information that is available on the masses of atrocities committed by the Syrian regime, much of which has been given already on other threads
Jad Nasr is who he is - a sometimes translator for the Syrian Government
Jad Nasr lives in Syria. He's 29, and he has a Master's in English literature. He sometimes uses his considerable talents by serving as translator for high Syrian dignitaries, such as the Grand Mufti.
It really does take one swallow to make a summer.
Can we clear one thing up - are you actually claiming that the torture, massacres, chemical attacks, shooting down of women and children on the streets, decades of repression and mass murder..... are any way in doubt.
Is that what you are suggesting?
I have to say that this is a first for Mudcat.
As much as Teribus and Keith have attempted to justify having dealings with this terrorist regime, they have not gone do far to defend it, as extremist right as they are.
Is that your position - that all this might not have happened?
If so, you are going to do better than this   
THE ASSAD FILES
Jim Carroll

Subject: RE: BS: Syria: the new nightmare?
From: Iains
Date: 24 Nov 16 - 07:33 AM

http://www.globalresearch.ca/voices-from-syria-refute-western-propaganda-us-nato-supported-terrorists-involved-in-countless-atro

This does not quite follow your narrative Jim.
You tell me where the truth lies, and the proof.

Subject: RE: BS: Syria: the new nightmare?
From: Jim Carroll
Date: 24 Nov 16 - 06:17 AM

"MAY HAVE DONE without any "evidence""
The evidence of Assad's crimes have been produced and are fully accepted by the world despite your defending his being sold ammunition, chemicals and riot control equipment.
Not surprised you are prepered to defend him though - that seems to be what you go for.

"Fear not, JOM ("
From another thread - it will go up each time you express your insecurity in this way

"A reminder
"Here is a link for you Jom:"
"By the way JOM"
"how boastful a man can get doesn't it JOM?"
"Don't worry JOM"
"every time you mention the name Woodcock I know I've got through to you and you are getting rattled."
You really should read our own posts sometime - it would help avoid the foot-in-mouths - the "Rattle of an Simple Man", as the screenplay writer described it.
Jim Carroll"

Subject: RE: BS: Syria: the new nightmare?
From: Teribus
Date: 24 Nov 16 - 06:09 AM

Fear not, JOM (Voice of the People) is perfectly prepared to be charged with and found guilty of things he MAY HAVE DONE without any "evidence" being produced. After all those are his rules aren't they?

Subject: RE: BS: Syria: the new nightmare?
From: Jim Carroll
Date: 24 Nov 16 - 04:09 AM

"I assume the destruction of vast swathes of the world heritage site of Palmyra was part of the modernisation of Syria by Isis."
Why should you assume such a thing - what a stupid thing to say - who else has suggested it?
You and Bobad are the only ones supporting extreme terrorism in any way.
Even bobad's 'condemnation of Assad's behavior is incomplete - he neglects to mention the support from Britain to enable him to carry out such acta - including the sale of chemicals that may have enabled him to build up the stockpile of chemical weapons he uses against his people.
No, straw men and bluster aside - I gave you my account of what has happened in Syria - where is your alternative - "absolute rubbish" doesn't hack it.
I suggest you put up put up some real facts rather than the insults you objected to so strongly not sol long ago when you believed they were being aimed at you.
C'mon - give us something to work on - this is all evasive shit.
Jim Carroll

Subject: RE: BS: Syria: the new nightmare?
From: Iains
Date: 24 Nov 16 - 03:42 AM

I assume the destruction of vast swathes of the world heritage site of Palmyra was part of the modernisation of Syria by Isis.
You do talk some absolute rubbish Jim.

Subject: RE: BS: Syria: the new nightmare?
From: bobad
Date: 23 Nov 16 - 04:45 PM

"In all, six people were killed—an entire family comprising a couple and their four young children. According to one account, they were hiding in a bomb shelter when a helicopter dropped the chlorine-laden canisters, and were unable to escape in time. Graphic footage broadcast by the AMC showed the lifeless corpses of the girl and three boys, their faces discolored, eyes glazed, mouths wide open. "Where are the Arabs? Where are they?" an agitated man asks repeatedly as the camera films. "If the Arabs were united, Bashar wouldn't have done this to us. But the Arab states are all traitors."

Assad Just Gassed an Entire Family to Death

Subject: RE: BS: Syria: the new nightmare?
From: Jim Carroll
Date: 23 Nov 16 - 01:40 PM

"I find your mindset quite fascinating. "
You're patronising again - somewhat pompously this tim
Instead of the bullshit quotes - where is your alternative scenario?
Are you seriously suggesting Amnesty is lying?
As the song says;
"Then bring your witness love
And I'll never deny you".
I assume you never read the 'Homs Horror" thread otherwise you would not be so foolhardy as to venture into this particular quagmire?
Jim Carroll

Subject: RE: BS: Syria: the new nightmare?
From: Iains
Date: 23 Nov 16 - 01:19 PM

Isis moved in, people with a genuine belief in modernising Syria were sucked in and, for political convenience, are now labelled "terrorists", which they are not.

Jim your problem would seem to be a bit more severe than semantics.
I find your mindset quite fascinating.

Was it not Goebbels that said: ... people will believe a big lie sooner than a little one; and if you repeat it frequently enough people will sooner or later believe it. You prove to be the perfect example.

Subject: RE: BS: Syria: the new nightmare?
From: Greg F.
Date: 23 Nov 16 - 12:58 PM

allocating blame for the situation having arisen is no easy task.

Sure it is. No Problem!

According to the Trumpists and their supporters on this forum (names available upon request) it's all Hillary Clinton's fault, dontcha know.

Subject: RE: BS: Syria: the new nightmare?
From: Jim Carroll
Date: 23 Nov 16 - 12:52 PM

By the way - a matter of semantics, I suppose
You do not "dispute" the veracity..... etc.
You have never referred to them in my presence - I'm not sure you know who they are (apart from that very biased and Partisan Human Rights charity 'Amnesty!!)
So far you have just denied what I have said without putting anything in its place - different kettle of dingbats altogether.
Jim Carroll.

Subject: RE: BS: Syria: the new nightmare?
From: Jim Carroll
Date: 23 Nov 16 - 12:46 PM

"However allocating blame for the situation having arisen is no easy task. "
It is if you are interested in the subject
Syria is in the hands of a despot who has been torturing and killing his opponents and ordinary Syrian people who got in his way for several decades - we know this from Amnesty reports (one of which you have been given).
Assad al Bashir's response to the Arab Spring protests was extreme and Britain decided to turn the other way and do nothing when the killing escalated in Homs - there's a very long and disgusting thread on it.
It's not strictly true that we completely turned our backs - our 'representatives' in Westminster were quite happy to sell riot equipment, armoured cars, water cannons.... etc., to help suppress the protests, having licensed at least one shipment of sniper ammunition previously.
The protests turned into a civil war, Russia and China vetoed U.N. action and the U.N. did nothing - our Parliament actually voted not to intervene even when the extent of the massacres were known.
Isis moved in, people with a genuine belief in modernising Syria were sucked in and, for political convenience, are now labelled "terrorists", which they are not.
The British establishment has now, humanitarian as they are, turned their backs on the refugees driven out by the conflict and Eorope is carrying dead children OUT of the SEA.
The great danger now is that, once Isis is defeated the opposition forces will begin fighting each other.
If there had been significant supplies of oil involved, none of this would have been allowed to happen - the U.S, marines would have been up the beach faster than a Bondi surfer and we'd have been right there behind them to blow their noses and wipe their bums.
Western Governments never did let Humanitarian considerations get in the way of political and economic self-interest.
There - not complicated at all really.
Now - what's your version of events?
Please don't patronise me, but by all means feel free to provide alternative information to fill in my ignorance.
Jim Carroll

Subject: RE: BS: Syria: the new nightmare?
From: Iains
Date: 23 Nov 16 - 11:51 AM

Jim,
you have a very black and white take on the world. I think you would find it hard to find anyone on this forum that would not condemn the situation in Syria. However allocating blame for the situation having arisen is no easy task. You make all manner of sweeping assertions with great confidence in the veracity of your sources. I dispute the veracity of your sources and your interpretation of events. There are multiple agendas at play in Syria and untangling the truth is near impossible. The western recognition of good and bad terrorists should give anyone pause for thought.

Subject: RE: BS: Syria: the new nightmare?
From: Jim Carroll
Date: 22 Nov 16 - 01:26 PM

Bobad
You seem to be implying that somebody is appeasing Syrian terrorism here
The only one who is so far is your running mate who has dismissed condemnation of the Assad regime as "cheap propaganda"
Perhaps you should address your remarks to him?
Of the two, Israel is by far the most dangerous - unless Syria has acquired nuclear weapons without us knowing about it.
Syria is not carrying out a policy of ethnic cleansing and it appears to be a moderate state as far as religion is concerned
That doesn''t lessen its crimes against humanity and war crimes, but it removes the "chosen by god" aspect of its terrorism from the equasion.
Israel on the other hand, is guilty of both and, as anybody knows, if a religion driven terrorist state has a bomb - DUCK!!!!!
Jim Carroll

Subject: RE: BS: Syria: the new nightmare?
From: Jim Carroll
Date: 22 Nov 16 - 01:10 PM

"The Assad regime in Syria has killed More Palestinians than Israel has In 60 years."
For fucks sake - what kind of an animal tots up the dead to make points?
Both are terrorist states - who cares which of them marks up the highest score?
Jim Carroll

Subject: RE: BS: Syria: the new nightmare?
From: bobad
Date: 22 Nov 16 - 11:29 AM

The Assad regime in Syria has killed More Palestinians than Israel has In 60 years.

No outrage about that from our resident phony social justice warriors who hypocritically only care about the Palestinians when they are killed as a result of wars waged by the terrorist groups Hamas and Hezbollah against Israel.

No Jews, no news.

Subject: RE: BS: Syria: the new nightmare?
From: Jim Carroll
Date: 22 Nov 16 - 06:43 AM

"Learn how to see. Realize that everything connects to everything else"
Leonardo Da Vinci

"Without context or explanation that statement is meaningless"
Jim Carroll

It would be good if you actually responded to Syria's terrorism raher than appeasing it though!
I very much doubt if there's too much chance of that happening though - waddya think?
"Mr Carroll"
Your frosty, disapproving tone gives you the air of a Dickensian schoolmaster.
I really don't have any problem with people using my first name - even those I find somewhat strange, but maybe some people prefer that to honest, friendly debate!
Jim Carroll

Subject: RE: BS: Syria: the new nightmare?
From: Iains
Date: 22 Nov 16 - 04:59 AM

mr carroll



    "Learn how to see. Realize that everything connects to everything else"

Leonardo Da Vinci

Subject: RE: BS: Syria: the new nightmare?
From: Jim Carroll
Date: 22 Nov 16 - 04:45 AM

"Mr Carroll you seem very selective in those governments you wish to condemn."
I think you'll fnd the reverse is the case - anybody who describes condemnation of Syria as "cheap propaganda" and refuses to respond to the facts of what has happened there over numerous decades leaves themselves with little room to make such accusations..
"Jim is a devout "liberal"
You can hurl this statement about without qualifying it as many times as you like, but until you disprove that fact that, by definition, to b a socialist is to be on the left, your ignorance of politics will continue to shine like a lighthouse - as will your hated of minorities and your adherence to the state underline your fascism.
Any moron can repeat untruths without attempting to prove them - anout the only thing you have ever proved on this forum.
Jim Carroll

Subject: RE: BS: Syria: the new nightmare?
From: Greg F.
Date: 21 Nov 16 - 09:58 PM

You missed the "& such like" apparently, Bubo.

Subject: RE: BS: Syria: the new nightmare?
From: bobad
Date: 21 Nov 16 - 08:29 PM

Right, one was an accident the other a government ordered killing - exactly the same thing...........idiot!

Subject: RE: BS: Syria: the new nightmare?
From: Greg F.
Date: 21 Nov 16 - 06:08 PM

Gee, Bubo, I seem to recall another middle-eastern country running bulldozers over unarmed protesters & such like.....

Subject: RE: BS: Syria: the new nightmare?
From: akenaton
Date: 21 Nov 16 - 04:05 PM

Ians, Jim is a devout "liberal".....he has but one mindset, the one projected by the media and the political elite.

Thinking outside of the box is a cardinal sin, despite his protests to the contrary he and his little gang of like minds are where they are told to be, several decades behind the game.

Subject: RE: BS: Syria: the new nightmare?
From: bobad
Date: 21 Nov 16 - 03:58 PM

The Syrian government forfeited it's legitimacy when it ordered security forces to kill unarmed protesters.

Subject: RE: BS: Syria: the new nightmare?
From: Iains
Date: 21 Nov 16 - 03:53 PM

I would be surprised if there are many governments in the world with clean hands. Britain especially has a murky past. You should also realise that most of the middle east is an artificial construct with borders placed as pretty lines on a largely british map. I think you will find in years to come that the so called arab spring was largely a movement of farmers to the cities due to the Levant being in the grip of the worst drought in 900 years.
Mr Carroll you seem very selective in those governments you wish to condemn. I would recommend you put down whatever sources you use and cast your information net wider and hopefully get a more balanced view.

Subject: RE: BS: Syria: the new nightmare?
From: Jim Carroll
Date: 21 Nov 16 - 03:03 PM

"legitimate government"#
Can a state headed by a mass murderer be described as having a "legitimate government"?
Not in my book
Wonder where that puts Nazi Germany !!
Jim Carroll

Subject: RE: BS: Syria: the new nightmare?
From: Iains
Date: 21 Nov 16 - 02:04 PM

No doubt time will tell who are the goodies and who are the baddies. I have my views on it, others have theirs. Russia was invited in by the legitimate government. America is there illegally as has been pointed out.

Subject: RE: BS: Syria: the new nightmare?
From: Jim Carroll
Date: 21 Nov 16 - 01:48 PM

Not quite sure of the point of all your links is - nobody here is supporting Russian action - the atrocities carried out by Russia are indisputable.
Russia is now part of the "Free World" so any atrocities they carry out are of the Free world, as is Israel - America was leader of the Free World while it was pouring burning petrol on the Vietnamese and spraying their crops with carcinogenic chemicals
The more thoughtful among us question the the "free" when applied to such countries.
What is interesting here is that neither of you pair of idiots seem to be aware that the actions of Saudi are no better or worse than those carried out by Russia in Syria - I believe you disputed this Ians - ot did I misunderstand your "cheap propaganda" reference.
Keep up lads - it really isn't too hard to understand.
Jim Carroll

Subject: RE: BS: Syria: the new nightmare?
From: Iains
Date: 21 Nov 16 - 12:22 PM

Bobad
of course all your quoted sources have an impeccable provenance.
We all know the mainstream news will never tell a lie.

Subject: RE: BS: Syria: the new nightmare?
From: bobad
Date: 21 Nov 16 - 11:58 AM

Here's some of what the "good guys" are up to in Syria.

Syria's war: 'Russian air raids kill 9,400 in one year'
        
Russia, Syrian army accused of destroying hospital, killing at least 2

SYRIA CARNAGE Russia has killed more civilians than ISIS as Putin's jets blitz war-ravaged Syria

Aleppo horror: dozens of civilians killed in Russian and Syrian strikes

Russian airstrikes in Syria killed 2,000 civilians in six months

Moscow 'killing more civilians than Isis' in Syria

UN slams Russia, Syria for killing children in Aleppo