Another school rampage shooting [Newtown, CT]

Subject: BS: Another school rampage shooting
From: olddude
Date: 14 Dec 12 - 01:39 PM

CNN all morning, elementary school, at least 27 dead, more than ten kids. The school had 600 kids from K-4th grade ... Oh dear God

Subject: RE: BS: Another school rampage shooting
From: olddude
Date: 14 Dec 12 - 01:39 PM

CNN

Subject: RE: BS: Another school rampage shooting
From: saulgoldie
Date: 14 Dec 12 - 01:46 PM

So sad. But not at all surprising.

Saul

Subject: RE: Another school rampage shooting [Newtown,CT]
From: Jeri
Date: 14 Dec 12 - 01:50 PM

Saul, I bet it was surprising to the kids and teachers.

The NOMAD folk festival was held in a school in Newtown when I first went. Hard to imagine this.

Subject: RE: Another school rampage shooting [Newtown, CT]
From: GUEST,Eliza
Date: 14 Dec 12 - 01:57 PM

Unimaginable. Have just seen some of it on our BBC News. So sorry for all concerned.

Subject: RE: Another school rampage shooting [Newtown, CT]
From: theleveller
Date: 14 Dec 12 - 02:02 PM

Heartbreaking. When will you ever learn.

Subject: RE: Another school rampage shooting [Newtown, CT]
From: GUEST,Eliza
Date: 14 Dec 12 - 02:05 PM

What type of weapons are a Glock and a Sig Sauer please? Apparently the murderer (no other word for him) was 20 years old. Even those little ones not injured must be terribly traumatised. That whole community must be totally frozen in shock.

Subject: RE: Another school rampage shooting [Newtown, CT]
From: GUEST,CS
Date: 14 Dec 12 - 02:09 PM

In another thread I requested stories which show how carrying guns promotes people's safety. And then this thread shows up.

Subject: RE: Another school rampage shooting [Newtown, CT]
From: pdq
Date: 14 Dec 12 - 02:16 PM

I makes no difference what a Glock is or how many rounds a clip holds.

The only thing that matters is what was in the head of the creep who did the shooting.

Subject: RE: Another school rampage shooting [Newtown, CT]
From: Jeri
Date: 14 Dec 12 - 02:30 PM

NOMAD was held in the high school.
They [the news] talked about kids being led out and told to keep their eyes closed so they wouldn't see stuff. They talked about first responders breaking down.

Subject: RE: Another school rampage shooting [Newtown, CT]
From: GUEST,Eliza
Date: 14 Dec 12 - 02:33 PM

pdq, I agree that the psychology of the perpetrator is very important, but as I know nothing about weaponry, I am at a loss to see how so many tragic losses occurred at the hands of a single person, unless, like the Norwegian killer, he had automatic weapons. If so, one wonders why such items are available for sale. This terrible event reminds me of the Dunblane massacre in Scotland; primary schoolchildren targeted in a similar fashion by a man with a grudge. It demonstrates all too tragically why unstable people, out of control of themselves, should never have access to weapons of any type.

Subject: RE: Another school rampage shooting [Newtown, CT]
From: John MacKenzie
Date: 14 Dec 12 - 02:35 PM

And yet still they preach the right to bear arms. Fucking idiots!

Subject: RE: Another school rampage shooting [Newtown, CT]
From: Jeri
Date: 14 Dec 12 - 02:35 PM

Gunman's mother was found dead at the school, where she was a teacher. No one was found dead at his home. Facts subject to future correction.

Subject: RE: Another school rampage shooting [Newtown, CT]
From: Jeri
Date: 14 Dec 12 - 02:38 PM

Isn't in so nice that kids get shot so you righteous people can get your smug on...

Give the little bodies a chance to fucking cool down before you start trying to prove you're so much better than others.

Subject: RE: Another school rampage shooting [Newtown, CT]
From: pdq
Date: 14 Dec 12 - 02:41 PM

"... I am at a loss to see how so many tragic losses occurred at the hands of a single person... {who} had automatic weapons..." ~ Eliza

None.

Automatic weapons are also known as machine guns and are illegal (special permit, usuallly reserved for law enforcement related jobs).

All the US mass killings have been none with guns that require the perp to pull the trigger for each and every bullet fired.

Subject: RE: Another school rampage shooting [Newtown, CT]
From: GUEST,Eliza
Date: 14 Dec 12 - 02:48 PM

This is even worse! Do you mean to tell me that this lunatic actually fired deliberately and coldly at each victim separately, possibly re-loading each time, until all those poor souls lay dead? Totally dreadful and psychopathic. (And for your information, Jeri, I do not in the least feel 'smug', neither do I consider myself at any time 'so much better than others'. I am just trying to understand what happened and to express my shock and sorrow. I was a teacher all my life of just this age-group.)

Subject: RE: Another school rampage shooting [Newtown, CT]
From: GUEST,999
Date: 14 Dec 12 - 02:48 PM

"It is unlawful [in Connecticut] to sell or permanently transfer a handgun to any person who is forbidden to possess a handgun, or to a person under 21.

No person, firm, or corporation shall sell or transfer any pistol or revolver unless an application provided by the Commissioner of Public Safety is filled out. There is a 2 week waiting period from the date of the application."

I hope that the guns are traced and whoever made it possible for that 20-year-old to acquire those weapons is charged with complicity in the murders of the children and staff.


"Give the little bodies a chance to fucking cool down before you start trying to prove you're so much better than others."

Ditto what Jeri said.

Subject: RE: Another school rampage shooting [Newtown, CT]
From: GUEST,999
Date: 14 Dec 12 - 02:55 PM

Eliza, I will answer your last question on another thread but not this one, no offence.

Subject: RE: Another school rampage shooting [Newtown, CT]
From: alanabit
Date: 14 Dec 12 - 02:58 PM

Let's do the gun control stuff elsewhere. For the time being, I can only express my shock and sympathy for the horribly traumatised and bereaved victims and relatives.

Subject: RE: Another school rampage shooting [Newtown, CT]
From: number 6
Date: 14 Dec 12 - 03:20 PM

This is a horrific tragedy.

Now we will be confronted endlessly for days throughout the news media, the social media about it. There will be endless rounds of never ending arguments about gun control, finger pointing at political parties etc. No resolution will be found until we fully recognize the source of the disease in our society that fuels such violence and prompts humans to commit such despicable acts.

biLL

Subject: RE: Another school rampage shooting [Newtown, CT]
From: Ebbie
Date: 14 Dec 12 - 04:11 PM

As I recall, this senseless violence was fairly well foretold in 'Future Shock' by Alvin Toffler.

Subject: RE: Another school rampage shooting [Newtown, CT]
From: Bill D
Date: 14 Dec 12 - 04:22 PM

I hope those unharmed are being well cared for.....

Subject: RE: Another school rampage shooting [Newtown, CT]
From: Peter K (Fionn)
Date: 14 Dec 12 - 04:30 PM

Alanabit, the only possible way to confront the gun lobby would be to take it on at a moment like this, albeit with the risk of rushing into bad law, as with the Dunblane aftermath. If the will is not there now, it never will be.

A bistro owner near the school, interviewed soon after the shootings, suggested that one answer might be to arm the teachers. It reminded me of my years in Belfast during the troubles. I often heard people in England saying that the best solution would be to give all the Irish people guns so they could kill each other more quickly. Certainly death tolls are likely to remain at modest levels without an increase in classroom gunfights.

As the bistro owner did concede, anyone can go off the rails, even a teacher. I'm with Eliza: the weaponry so widely available is a direct factor in the death tolls. Would a six-shooter not be enough to fulfil the right to bear arms?

To the rest of the world, the present state of affairs in America is insanity on wheels.

Subject: RE: Another school rampage shooting [Newtown, CT]
From: Sandy Mc Lean
Date: 14 Dec 12 - 04:30 PM

One reason that I consider myself an agnostic is wondering how a caring God can allow such things to happen! The pain that the parents feel in losing their children in such a sensless slaughter is something that I hope never to experience. The question "WHY" will probably never be answered! My deepedest sympathy to the families!

Subject: RE: Another school rampage shooting [Newtown, CT]
From: gnu
Date: 14 Dec 12 - 04:45 PM

Sandy... I understand but, God help us all. I have only tears for those in pain.

Subject: RE: Another school rampage shooting [Newtown, CT]
From: Charley Noble
Date: 14 Dec 12 - 05:07 PM

Words fail, once again.

Charley Noble

Subject: RE: Another school rampage shooting [Newtown, CT]
From: catspaw49
Date: 14 Dec 12 - 05:23 PM

Yet again....and I am pleased to see how the community is pulling together so quickly.

I also wonder what can possibly mean so much in the journalistic world that makes a reporter interview young children who havejust gone through an experience like this.

Spaw

Subject: RE: Another school rampage shooting [Newtown, CT]
From: Greg F.
Date: 14 Dec 12 - 05:26 PM

I also wonder what can possibly mean so much in the journalistic world...

Money.

And TV News stopped being journalism a long while back, Spaw.

Subject: RE: Another school rampage shooting [Newtown, CT]
From: Peter K (Fionn)
Date: 14 Dec 12 - 05:37 PM

A catastrophic nightmare for the perp's family too of course. Both his parents are dead, and it sounds as though there may be yet more related tragedy to be counted in. We need to talk about Kevin.

Subject: RE: Another school rampage shooting [Newtown, CT]
From: GUEST,Stim
Date: 14 Dec 12 - 05:58 PM

I have no words for this.

Subject: RE: Another school rampage shooting [Newtown, CT]
From: Steve Shaw
Date: 14 Dec 12 - 06:32 PM

http://www.theonion.com/articles/fuck-everything-nation-reports,30743/

Subject: RE: Another school rampage shooting [Newtown, CT]
From: Peter K (Fionn)
Date: 14 Dec 12 - 07:01 PM

Worth a blicky Steve:

Just fuck it

Subject: RE: Another school rampage shooting [Newtown, CT]
From: Janie
Date: 14 Dec 12 - 07:12 PM

Heartbreaking....

Subject: RE: Another school rampage shooting [Newtown, CT]
From: GUEST
Date: 14 Dec 12 - 07:18 PM

"There will be endless rounds of never ending arguments about gun control, finger pointing at political parties etc"

And why not? America and guns is like drivers and booze. I remember the outrage when it was suggested that laws should be passed oulawing drunk drivers. I can take my drink, it's those other wackheads... but the legislation wnt through, and in a remarkably short time drunk driving became socially unacceptable.

You could do the same with guns.. the mental cripples will whinge, but before too long society will shun them. They'll shoot off all their ammunition preparing for Armageddon, and by then even WalMart won't stock the stuff.

As for political parties, are there any in the US that embrace disarming psychopaths?

Subject: RE: Another school rampage shooting [Newtown, CT]
From: GUEST,mg
Date: 14 Dec 12 - 07:39 PM

This is why we are making the lullaby CD. We will rush to get at least one copy to each class..sometime early new year. They will be able to copy it as much as they want. They will cost $2 each if anyone wants to preorder a stack of them and the duplication place will send them. CD will not be complete...but should have around 12-14 songs on it.

Subject: RE: Another school rampage shooting [Newtown, CT]
From: ChanteyLass
Date: 14 Dec 12 - 08:34 PM

I learned about these shootings at about 1 PM. I have spent most of the rest of the day moving from fighting back tears to feeling numb. I wish I could see my 4 grands, ages 3-12, and hug them.

The school is a little more than two hours from my home. It is about a half-hour from where my daughter-in-law and her two sons (my middle grands) lived before she and my son bought a house in RI. I think this is the closest mass shooting to my home. I have always realized that something like that could happen "here." I spent more than 30 years teaching in elementary schools. Some of that time was spent in "open loft" schools where there were no classrooms, just a huge space broken up by dividers similar to those used to form office cubicles. Inside a school like that, there are few classroom doors to lock--just to a few isolated rooms like the office, faculty room, art room, music room, and gym. We did have emergency plans and drills twice a year. If the school was attacked, several classes were to move into each of these rooms. But until they got there, they would be targets for anyone with a gun. We also had evacuation drills--not just fire drills where we left the building and waited at a safe distance, but a drill where we walked through a wooded area behind the school to another street where (in theory) buses would pick us up.

Eliza, the guns used are often used by detectives in the mystery books I read. I'm sure you can find out more by googling them. Apparently they belonged to the mother (and victim) of the suspected shooter.

Subject: RE: Another school rampage shooting [Newtown, CT]
From: open mike
Date: 15 Dec 12 - 04:16 AM

Yes the weapons were registered to the mother. He shot her at home and took her car to the school. His older brother was taken in for questioning. Apparently he had his brother's I.D. with him, so the brother was at first presumed to be the killer.. (what did the earlier post mean when it said both his parents are dead?)

There may be a question as to whether the mother worked at the school or not...

my heart goes out to all those who have been affected by this tragedy.
Thankfully many of the children returned safe to their parents.

The principal of the school was one of the victims. She was an energetic and inspiring leader, and will be greatly missed, as will all of those who lost their lives today. Sandy Hook school or Newtown, CT, will never be the same!

Subject: RE: Another school rampage shooting [Newtown, CT]
From: SPB-Cooperator
Date: 15 Dec 12 - 04:40 AM

Dear NRA

Are all proud and celebrating you latest wonderful achievement???

WELL??????????????

Subject: RE: Another school rampage shooting [Newtown, CT]
From: Jim Carroll
Date: 15 Dec 12 - 06:00 AM

"Saul, I bet it was surprising to the kids and teachers."
It seems not - the schools in this 'idyllic' area are fitted with devices are that lock everybody inside when lessons commence
What kind of society needs that?
Jim Carroll

Subject: RE: Another school rampage shooting [Newtown, CT]
From: GUEST,Eliza
Date: 15 Dec 12 - 06:10 AM

After the Dunblane massacre in Scotland, here in UK all schools now have a security system in place where one has to identify oneself via an intercom before the door is unlocked for admittance. I retired before this became the norm. It's a terrible climate in which to educate youngsters. I feel it was intense and uncontrollable anger which drove this young man to commit these atrocities. Many posters have said we need to identify and help such people before the anger beomes dangerous. Not so easy.

Subject: RE: Another school rampage shooting [Newtown, CT]
From: Jim Carroll
Date: 15 Dec 12 - 06:19 AM

"Not so easy"
These disturbed people will always be with us - the answer lies in reducing the ready access to guns, not to wait until the next tragedy, or the one after that, or the one after that.....
Here in the west of Ireland we are 'blessed' by the presence of an American journalist, Mary Ellen Synon, who following the beating and execution of a Traveller by a farmer (who was acquitted on all counts), told us that it was not just the right, but the duty of all rural dwellers to own a gun.
Mary Ellen had made her name a few years earlier by losing her column on a national daily newspaper for describing the Para-Olympics as being "grotesque".
Jim Carroll

Subject: RE: Another school rampage shooting [Newtown, CT]
From: kendall
Date: 15 Dec 12 - 06:26 AM

There is no easy answer.
John, we have a 2nd amendment because of the way England treated the American colonists. Now, it takes 2/3rds majority of congress to amend the constitution, and that means 2/3rds of the politicians have to agree.The gun lobby has the gun owners scared shitless that they are going to lose their right to keep and pack heat and the politicians don't dare commit political suicide by voting against them. Their number one duty is to get elected and re elected. Whats good for the country is second on their list, if it appears there at all.

What we need is people control, attitude adjustment.

Subject: RE: Another school rampage shooting [Newtown, CT]
From: Midchuck
Date: 15 Dec 12 - 07:05 AM

If I were a total cynic, and heavily into stock trading, I'd put everything into firearms company shares immediately.

The new calls for more gun restrictions will cause a lot of Americans to go out and buy more guns right away - even though most of the ones who will do so have quite a few already - just in case some restrictions on gun sales do get enacted. Firearms company profits will soar. Their stock will go up. Watch.

P.

Subject: RE: Another school rampage shooting [Newtown, CT]
From: GUEST,999
Date: 15 Dec 12 - 07:29 AM

Now is the time to take the 'battle' back to the NRA. Now is the time to have Representatives in the House who oppose gun control stand and be recognized for the last time because they will not be reelected. Now is the time to take away the NRA's power as lobbyists and as an organization with political clout. After today, they have NO credibility anymore IF you kick them and keep kicking them. Street fighting 101.

America thought President Obama would not win because some big money took out advertisements saying he wouldn't win. America proved itself wrong--or more precisely, proved that money can't buy the whole country. Do NOT let up on this. Your president has said he's willing to lead. For krissake, support him. If you belong to the NRA, withdraw your membership. Tell them--TELL THEM--no more bullshit, no more lies. Stop the American love affair with YouTube crap that glorifies some idiot in camouflage gear and a scope-mounted rifle. TELL your kids that "No, you cannot have the latest video game that teaches you twelve ways to shoot some poor bastard. And if I find it on your computer, you won't HAVE a computer!" Start taking back your country. Start with your kids and your Congress, and don't take NO for an answer.

Subject: RE: Another school rampage shooting [Newtown, CT]
From: Peter K (Fionn)
Date: 15 Dec 12 - 07:37 AM

Good points Kendall, on top of which a politician can't do anything anyway if he's not electable.

Eliza, not "all schools" in the UK. At the Nottinghamshire school where I am a governor the public have rights of way across the campus, there is a public library within the main building (shared by the students, and much better than any state school would otherwise warrant), a centre for adults with mental/learning difficulties, an elderly day centre an FE college for adult learners and a public leisure centre. In other words it is an integral part of the community, and there is NO locked entry system.

Come and visit us: you would be following in the footsteps of a secretary of state, a prime minister and a royal prince among others, all of whom say what a shining example we are, but do nothing to make such an approach possible without the constant battling against the system that keeps our school the way it is.

Subject: RE: Another school rampage shooting [Newtown, CT]
From: Richard Bridge
Date: 15 Dec 12 - 07:59 AM

I would submit that it is a day like today that is the right time for the USA to start to reject the idea that justice and righteousness come from the barrel of a gun.

How many people would the murderer have been able to kill without a gun?

Every journey starts with the first step.

Subject: RE: Another school rampage shooting [Newtown, CT]
From: GUEST,Fred McCormick
Date: 15 Dec 12 - 08:05 AM

God almighty. Another 27 innocent lives wasted. If ever there was a time to bring America's gun laws under control this is it. Will it happen? Not a chance.

Too many people would rather see blood billowing down the streets than give up their precious right to bear arms.

BTW., I remember one of Alastair Cook's Letters From America saying that the Constitutional right to bear arms only applies in times of war or internal strife. Does Afghanistan count or somthing?

Subject: RE: Another school rampage shooting [Newtown, CT]
From: Pete Jennings
Date: 15 Dec 12 - 08:19 AM

Just numbing.

Subject: RE: Another school rampage shooting [Newtown, CT]
From: GUEST,Eliza
Date: 15 Dec 12 - 11:22 AM

Peter K Your post was heartening. The schools where I taught were in Edinburgh, Glasgow and Norwich. In those days everyone had access, and one could walk in at any time without hindrance. But times have changed. I admire your school's stance in being the hub of the community and open to all. My husband thinks that video games of unimaginable violence played by youngsters for hours on end have a lot to answer for. I don't know if any valid research has shown this to be true, but I tend to agree with him.

Subject: RE: Another school rampage shooting [Newtown, CT]
From: ChanteyLass
Date: 15 Dec 12 - 12:39 PM

I am learning more. My daughter-in-law's first husband lives in Newtown with his wife, her son, and their daughter. My two middle grands go there often to be with their dad. And the superintendent of schools (another Janet which is also my first name) is the ex-husband's mother. I saw her interview on the Today Show this morning. It does not seem to be posted on Today's website. I do not know if my middle grands are spending this weekend in Newtown. If I were there dad, I'd want to see them. If I were there mom, I wouldn't want them to go! I know they will be there for much of Christmas vacation so they might be staying in RI this weekend.

Subject: RE: Another school rampage shooting [Newtown, CT]
From: GUEST,Patsy
Date: 15 Dec 12 - 04:52 PM

Heartbreaking especially when it involves children so young, their parents must be going through hell, my heart goes out to them.

Subject: RE: Another school rampage shooting [Newtown, CT]
From: Peter K (Fionn)
Date: 15 Dec 12 - 06:44 PM

And on the other hand Eliza, how disheartening to hear that kids at elementary school in the States get training in "lockdown." (It doesn't seem to do them much good when some disturbed guy is on the loose with a semi-automatic rifle.)

Subject: RE: Another school rampage shooting [Newtown, CT]
From: Peter K (Fionn)
Date: 15 Dec 12 - 06:45 PM

Shouldn't this thread be "BS," by the way?

Subject: RE: Another school rampage shooting [Newtown, CT]
From: GUEST
Date: 15 Dec 12 - 07:30 PM

Glad I live in AUSTRALIA

Subject: RE: Another school rampage shooting [Newtown, CT]
From: kendall
Date: 15 Dec 12 - 09:54 PM

We are saddled with a 200 year old habit, and there is no rehab for this one.

Subject: RE: Another school rampage shooting [Newtown, CT]
From: Lizzie Cornish 1
Date: 16 Dec 12 - 05:15 AM

The 'habit' is Apathy, kendall...
The 'habit' is the Continuous Turning Away
The 'habit' is Looking Totally in The Wrong Direction


Harry knew so very much about the Human Mind. Long before others did, Harry knew. He saw inside. He felt the pain. He understood entirely.

"It is an early Monday morning.
The sun is becoming bright on the land.
No one is watching as he comes a-walking.
Two bulky suitcases hang from his hands.

He heads towards the tower that stands in the campus.
He goes through the door, he starts up the stairs.
The sound of his footsteps, the sound of his breathing,
The sound of the silence when no one was there.

I didn't really know him.
He was kind of strange.
Always sort of sat there.
He never seemed to change.

He reached the catwalk. He put down his burden.
The four sided clock began to chime.
Seven AM, the day is beginning.
So much to do and so little time.

He looks at the city where no one had known him.
He looks at the sky where no one looks down.
He looks at his life and what it has shown him.
He looks for his shadow it cannot be found.

He was such a moody child, very hard to touch.
Even as a baby he never smiled too much. No, no. No, no.

You bug me, she said.
You're ugly, she said.
Please hug me, I said.
But she just sat there
With the same flat stare
That she saves for me alone
When I'm home.
When I'm home.
Take me home.

He laid out the rifles, he loaded the shotgun,
He stacked up the cartridges along the wall.
He knew he would need them for his conversation.
If it went as he planned, then he might use them all.

He said Listen you people I've got a question
You won't pay attention but I'll ask anyhow.
I found a way that will get me an answer.
Been waiting to ask you 'til now.
Right now!

Am I?
I am a lover who's never been kissed.
Am I?
I am a fighter who's not made a fist.
Am I?
If I'm alive then there's so much I've missed.
How do I know I exist?
Are you listening to me?
Are you listening to me?
Am I?

The first words he spoke took the town by surprise.
One got Mrs. Gibbons above her right eye.
It blew her through the window wedged her against the door.
Reality poured from her face, staining the floor.

He was kind of creepy,
Sort of a dunce.
I met him at the corner bar.
I only dated the poor boy once,
That's all. Just once, that was all.

Bill Whedon was questioned as he stepped from his car.
Tom Scott ran across the street but he never got that far.
The police were there in minutes, they set up barricades.
He spoke right on over them in a half-mile circle.
In a dumb struck city his pointed questions were sprayed.

He knocked over Danny Tyson as he ran towards the noise.
Just about then the answers started coming. Sweet, sweet joy.
Thudding in the clock face, whining off the walls,
Reaching up to where he sat, their answering calls.

Thirty-seven people got his message so far.
Yes, he was reaching them right were they are.

They set up an assault team. They asked for volunteers.
They had to go and get him, that much was clear.
And the word spread about him on the radios and TV's.
In appropriately sober tone they asked "Who can it be?"

He was a very dull boy, very taciturn.
Not much of a joiner, he did not want to learn.
No, no. No, no.

They're coming to get me, they don't want to let me
Stay in the bright light too long.
It's getting on noon now, it's going to be soon now.
But oh, what a wonderful sound!

Mama, won't you nurse me?
Rain me down the sweet milk of your kindness.
Mama, it's getting worse for me.
Won't you please make me warm and mindless?

Mama, yes you have cursed me.
I never will forgive you for your blindness.
I hate you!

The wires are all humming for me.
And I can hear them coming for me.
Soon they'll be here, but there's nothing to fear.
Not any more though they've blasted the door.

As the copter dropped the gas he shouted "Who cares?".
They could hear him laughing as they started up the stairs.
As they stormed out on the catwalk, blinking at the sun,
With their final fusillade his answer had come.

Am I?
There is no way that you can hide me.
Am I?
Though you have put your fire inside me.
Am I?
You've given me my answer can't you see?
I was!
I am!
and now I will be,
I will be,
I will be,
I will be,
I will be,
I WILL BE!"

Harry Chapin - Sniper - Youtube

Subject: RE: Another school rampage shooting [Newtown, CT]
From: kendall
Date: 16 Dec 12 - 05:17 AM

Another know it all.

Subject: RE: Another school rampage shooting [Newtown, CT]
From: Lizzie Cornish 1
Date: 16 Dec 12 - 06:19 AM

No, kendall...I'm not....but I tell you this, I feel we are looking very much in the wrong direction at the moment..

Yes, of course guns are a major problem, as is this feckingly violent society that we have ALL *allowed* to be created for centuries. But it is now being reported from 'official' sources, allegedly, that Adam had Aspergers. It's what went through my mind immediately I heard the news...

1 in 80 people now being diagnosed with Autism..
Every 20 minutes a child is diagnosed...

Yet governments are NOT taking notice, NOT giving help to those families who desperately need it, and not showing any concern over the growing numbers, which continue to just keep growing.....

And right now, I'm sitting here listening to Dan's beautiful song 'Flowers On The Moon'...and my heart is aching for so many children, so many families.

Recently I came to know a woman who had two children with Aspergers. Her son had far more problems than his sister, who was able to cope far better. She asked me to come and talk with him. I knew some of his background, for she'd told me. Before he was diagnosed he was in a terrible state, used to try attack his mother with a carving knife or anything sharp he could find..She was in a terrible state, on medication, but the medics wouldn't help, for there was very little help there and also they thought she was making a lot of it up, as she's a very nervous lass.....

She struggled on until one day one of those doctors actually witnessed her son having a meltdown. And suddenly, they BELIEVED HER! Suddenly he DID get help. And so did she. He ended up going to a special school for children with autism. He was around 10 by then..and he got one to one teaching wherever possible and very small classes, taught by people who fully understood the best way to help him. It turned his life around.

Well, when I spoke to him, I asked him how he'd felt about school, before he was diagnosed. He told me he was terrified, absolutely shit-scared terrified. He spent his entire day feeling like that, every day. And the person he blamed for this hell was his mother, for she took him there every day, insisted he went. He felt his mother, of all people, was the one who should have loved him, but in doing what she did, taking him to school, he felt she hated him..and so he started to hate her.

He told me, very sadly, that he'd been very bad to his Mum, and now that he understood about Aspergers and about school, he realized that she'd actually loved him all the time and felt, at the time, that she was doing the best she could for him.

Sadly, his Mum's nerves were, understandably, shredded and she remains on medication to this day.

Her son finished school though, in the school where he was deeply cared for and helped. He now has a job, full time, where he helps to care for young adults with learning difficulties. He *adores* his job for he understands how those in his care so often feel, having been there himself for so many years.

When I met him he was very kind, very polite and aware now that his Mum loves very deeply, which makes him very happy.

There can be such different endings if the right help is given where it is most needed.

The father of one of the little children killed, Emilie, has extended his sympathy and love out to Adam's family, saying he cannot being to imagine how difficult this time must be for them. An extraordinary act of Love, from an Extraordinary man.

If Obama stopped ALL U.S.Invasions and started pouring money from The War Machine into TMS Research then so much GOOD would come from that that it would almost light the world up! But sadly, I doubt he, or any other President will do so, for War is BIG BUSINESS...

And so others like Adam will continue to implode. explode, meltdown...whilst the Corporate Medical Bastards get ever richer doling out putrid chemicals to millions of children and adults.

ONE in EIGHTY
Do the Math
Do the Future Forecast
Do the Future Heartache

And then know that it doesn't HAVE to be this way,for TMS can change it ALL around, but The World isn't interested, other than in making mega-media-bucks from the fallout of the pain of everyone who becomes traumatized.

Our World
Our Choices

John Elder Robison (who has Aspergers) talking about TMS Research

Subject: RE: Another school rampage shooting [Newtown, CT]
From: GUEST,Eliza
Date: 16 Dec 12 - 06:30 AM

Aspergers children display a range of behaviours of very different severity. Some are not far from 'normal' (hate that word, but it seems appropriate here), others are extremely difficult to manage without medication. Fully autistic people need 24hr care and supervision. My niece is mildly Aspergers, and not in the least dangerous or threatening. She merely finds human interaction hard to understand at an emotional level, and her discourse can seem a bit bizarre at times. She gets depressed but is on medication for that. She's just landed a job in a Bank. I wouldn't want people to think that anyone with Aspergers is a dangerous threat. If the young man responsible for this dreadful massacre was Aspergers, I hope it won't distort people's understanding of the term and its wide-ranging spectrum.

Subject: RE: Another school rampage shooting [Newtown, CT]
From: kendall
Date: 16 Dec 12 - 08:19 AM

I have to wonder how many of these patients actually have a mental problem and how many are victims of greedy pill pushers.

Subject: RE: Another school rampage shooting [Newtown, CT]
From: Lizzie Cornish 1
Date: 16 Dec 12 - 08:40 AM

I agree, Eliza. The lady of whom I spoke, above, had two children with Aspergers, one at the severe end, (at the time, due to great stress) and one with far less severe symptoms.

We are medicating so many children that it beggars belief! Many, I believe, do NOT need that medication at all. Ken Robinson has even given a TED talk on this, so desperately concerned is he about how many children are now being drugged for 'allegedly' having ADHD...and who knows what the long-term effects of these drugs might be..or how they may effect very sensitive children?

Ken Robinson - Changing Education Paradigms

Subject: RE: Another school rampage shooting [Newtown, CT]
From: Greg F.
Date: 16 Dec 12 - 10:32 AM

I just KNEW IT!!!

Yet another subject that Saint Liz Of Blather knows absolutely everything there is to know about and has deigned to school us lesser mortals in!

Subject: RE: Another school rampage shooting [Newtown, CT]
From: GUEST,Eliza
Date: 16 Dec 12 - 10:52 AM

Greg, whether by 'Saint Liz of Blather' you are alluding to myself (Eliza) or Lizzie Cornish, we both have the perfect right to express our opinions and give any information we feel might be appropriate to the discussion. If you see yourself as a lesser mortal requiring to be schooled, then read, learn and inwardly digest.

Subject: RE: Another school rampage shooting [Newtown, CT]
From: Elmore
Date: 16 Dec 12 - 11:35 AM

Our 6 year old granddaughter came to visit this weekend, so we were spared 24/7 tv coverage of this unspeakable tragedy. We did see NYC Mayor Bloomberg, on Meet The Press, and share his views on gun control.

Subject: RE: Another school rampage shooting [Newtown, CT]
From: Greg F.
Date: 16 Dec 12 - 11:39 AM

'Tain't you, Eliza, relax.

And by the way, Eliza I have the perfect right to express my opinions and give any FACTUAL information I feel might be appropriate to the discussion.

The BS I should keep to myself - as should you and Liz.

Ta -

Greg

Subject: RE: Another school rampage shooting [Newtown, CT]
From: Peter K (Fionn)
Date: 16 Dec 12 - 11:57 AM

Kendall is right; Lizzie is wrong. It IS addiction; it is NOT apathy.

Gun control is fiercely debated from both sides, and apathy doesn't come into it. The wide availability of semi-automatic weapons in the States continues because it is vociferously defended by a rich and well organised lobby that has to be heeded because it represents the views of many millions of Americans, for whom it is ingrained in their culture.

An American commentator hit it on the nail yesterday when she said there would be no point Obama risking political capital on the issue if he thinks he can achieve nothing. My hope is that the indicators and his own conviction will persuade him to give it a go, because if not now, when?

Subject: RE: Another school rampage shooting [Newtown, CT]
From: GUEST,999
Date: 16 Dec 12 - 12:28 PM

"My hope is that the indicators and his own conviction will persuade him to give it a go, because if not now, when?"

Peter, Bobad just posted to a thread and a California legislator has said she will introduce a bill on the first day Congress gets back to business that will then give President Obama something to work with.

As Bobad said, it's a start.

Subject: RE: Another school rampage shooting [Newtown, CT]
From: kendall
Date: 16 Dec 12 - 12:48 PM

If he does he had better double his Secret service.

Subject: RE: Another school rampage shooting [Newtown, CT]
From: bobad
Date: 16 Dec 12 - 12:57 PM

The next step, IMO, should be a total ban on handguns except for law enforcement officials, with mandatory minimum prison sentences for possession.

Subject: RE: Another school rampage shooting [Newtown, CT]
From: kendall
Date: 16 Dec 12 - 01:08 PM

And retired law men who qualify. We could have thousands of under cover cops on our streets.
Bush signed HR 218 to do just that but it never went anywhere.

Subject: RE: Another school rampage shooting [Newtown, CT]
From: GUEST,DDT
Date: 16 Dec 12 - 01:16 PM

The NRA/gun lobby--the true destroyers of the family. It is their desire to arm everyone against everyone else peddling paranoia and fear for no other reason than to maximize the already bloated profits of the gun industry that is responsible for every member of someone's family shot dead or grievously wounded by some fruitcake with a firearm and an axe to grind.

In the US in 2007, there were 12,632 gun homicides but that is only part of the picture. That same year 17,352 other gun-related deaths were ruled suicides bringing the total to 31,224 gun-related deaths in the US during a single year. Of those suicides, how many were accidental, how many were by people who might have rethought their position using a slower method of death, how many were murders that were simply ruled as homicides? How many are shot to death whose bodies are never found or whose cause of death cannot be determined? The FBI reports that between 2006 and 2010, there 47,856 gun homicides in the United States. That's more than twice the amount of the people killed by any other means in that same period. NOW--think how many families are destroyed in this country by guns.

The NRA/gun lobby is this society's true destroyer of morals, truth, safety and family. Not socialism, not Islam, not liberalism, not gay marriage, not abortion, not illegal immigration, not legalized marijuana--none of these have done a thing to destroy the family, national security or social fabric of this country. The culprit is the NRA/gun lobby. And it's all in the name of profit.

The people of America are full participants with the NRA/gun lobby so they too must accept their own role in destroying the family. All the gun manufacturers have to do is announce a certain weapon is "an endangered species" and there will be huge run on purchasing that weapon--99% of those purchases by people with no legitimate use for that weapon.

Despite bans of various assault pistols as the TEC9 and its variants, they are still available and can be purchased off the internet. Once a weapon is manufactured and sent out to a distributor, there is no way to keep it out of any American community whether it is banned there or not. A single weapon can make its way across the country and back again in a matter of days thanks to gun shows and the 130,000-150,000 licensed dealers who furnish the weapons sold at those shows. There is no way to keep them out of the hands of criminals, no way to keep them out of the hands of fruitcakes. Background checks are largely pointless. If a would-be mass murderer can't get the weapons at a gun store, he'll get them at a gun show or buy one from a private citizen.

The huge run on guns that occurred at both the election and reelection of Obama have put millions more of these weapons on the market where one of them may eventually kill you or a loved one--no matter how safe you think your community is. If you live in the US, you are not safe because the NRA/gun lobby is a self-fulfilling prophecy. "Buy more guns because this country isn't safe!" And the reason the country isn't safe is because of all the guns flowing into every nook and cranny of this country.

We have made guns sacred in the US. Any attempt to curb their sale or availability is met with shrieks that your god-given right to bear arms is being taken from you and next you will herded into concentration camps for the New World Order. Only our guns, they tell us, keep that from happening. And even if that was true--at what price?

Whenever, we attempt to legislate control in the sale of firearms, it precipitates a run on the purchase of these weapons thwarting the very reason for the legislation. The Washington Post insists that gun ownership is in decline and that may be but what difference does that make when CNN reports that in 2009 there were 310 million non-military guns in circulation in the US and ABC News reports that 2012 was "a record-setting year for gun sales"?

According to the ATF, 5.4 million new guns were manufactured in the US in 2010 of which 95% were intended only for the US market. Another 3.2 million firearms were imported to the US that same year (the TEC9, the handgun of choice among American criminals and gangs in the 90s was actually manufactured in Sweden). So in 2010 alone, we had some 8.5 million NEW firearms put on the streets of America.

In 2011, of the 16,454,951 background checks conducted by NICS on gun sales in the US, only 78,211 were denied (that's less than half a percent). With a prison population in the millions, we are supposed to believe that only 78,211 of them tried to buy guns last year. Even so, the background checks conducted in the US in 2012 already surpass the total amount last year by 350,000 and the FBI reckons that by the end of December (the busiest year for gun sales--it's Christmas season after all), the total amount will top last year by 2 million!

There 51,438 retail gun stores in the US. Compare that to 36,569 grocery stores and 14,098 McDonalds restaurants. The later two combined don't equal the number of gun retail stores and that's not counting gun shows and pawn shops (7,356)! Only gas stations outnumber gun stores (143,839).

Who do we thank for this incredible number of guns floating around this society? We thank the NRA/gun lobby. And every time one of these weapons is used to kill someone's father, mother, son, daughter, sibling, cousin, neighbor, coworker, store clerk, cashier, cop or somebodywho just happened to walk in on a robbery in progress--who do we blame? We should blame the NRA/gun lobby--the destroyer of families.

Subject: RE: Another school rampage shooting [Newtown, CT]
From: Lizzie Cornish 1
Date: 16 Dec 12 - 01:41 PM

"Kendall is right; Lizzie is wrong. It IS addiction; it is NOT apathy."

The Apathy was addressed to the world, basically, for so many no longer care about the very things they should do.

If you want me to narrow it down to America, then I'll say there is an American Apathy to The Addiction of American Gun Culture.

Hopefully though, with the news above, this may now start to change...

---

I'm closing this thread, as it has become pretty much the same gun/anti-gun debate that's going on here: www.mudcat.org/thread.cfm?threadid=148617. --Mod