BS: Shooting tragedies and guns

Subject: RE: BS: Shooting tragedies and guns
From: Bill D
Date: 18 Dec 12 - 10:37 PM

"...but you can have a weapon ready about as fast as getting it out of a drawer if one needs that level of security."

Needs? If one actually needs that level of security, where do you keep the safe? One in every room like my ex-neighbor?...beside the TV... by the refrigerator? Tapping in numbers takes time...not to mention the time to evaluate whether you need to open it, Rep. Gohmert of Texas wishes that teacher had a gun... I wonder how long it would take a teacher to go to a safe, tap a few 'easy' numbers and get a hand gun to confront a kid with an AR-15... who has already fired 20-30 rounds.

How many stories can you find of ANYONE who has, with a quickly accessed weapon, successfully protected their home against actual (not 'imagined') danger? I will bet that there are MORE stories of sad mistakes by nervous homeowners.

I'm sorry, Dan... I do understand the IDEA of securing & protecting one's home, but 99% of the time it is just a slogan ABOUT fear & danger, rather than a genuine ongoing need that moves people. And **IF** they can justify having a gun IN the house, ready in the safe, what do they do when they open the door and/or leave the house? Now we are into carry permits and training and similar questions about response time when a possible threat is identified... etc..etc...

Since VERY few people actually have occasion to make defenses at home... or even walking down the street.. they have little to guide them except their imagination about what to do in a real situation. Practical, daily, reality in gun use is for police and SERIOUSLY trained people...YOU might be one, and I might approve YOU if I were in charge, but the issue is the thousands to millions who 'just sorta wish' they felt safer.

Subject: RE: BS: Shooting tragedies and guns
From: Songwronger
Date: 18 Dec 12 - 10:26 PM

Far out. Enlighten us some more with your unique insights into the mind of Gandhi. You are just so freakin awsome. Must be the dope you smoke. You know, the stuff that your boy Eric Holder runs guns into Mexico so the cartels can ship it to you. So what if a few thousand have to die along the border in violent...I mean "forceful" incidents.

Subject: RE: BS: Shooting tragedies and guns
From: Bobert
Date: 18 Dec 12 - 10:17 PM

Gandhi was talking about personal self defense... Every person who has ever spent any time in a dojo understands that concept... BTW, I disagree with Gandhi's thought that in defending yourself that you are practicing violence... Violence is force "above" that needed for self defense... I was taught to use only the minimum force to defend yourself...

Either way, Gandhi wasn't into packin' heat...

B~

Subject: RE: BS: Shooting tragedies and guns
From: Songwronger
Date: 18 Dec 12 - 09:56 PM

Since someone quoted Gandhi earlier, here are some more Gandhi quotes:

"He who cannot protect himself or his nearest and dearest or their honour by non-violently facing death may and ought to do so by violently dealing with the oppressor. He who can do neither of the two is a burden. He has no business to be the head of a family. He must either hide himself, or must rest content to live for ever in helplessness and be prepared to crawl like a worm at the bidding of a bully." – M.K. Gandhi, Between Cowardice and Violence

"I do believe that where there is only a choice between cowardice and violence I would advise violence." – M.K. Gandhi, The Doctrine of the Sword.

"When my eldest son asked me what he should have done, had he been present when I was almost fatally assaulted in 1908, whether he should have run away and seen me killed or whether he should have used his physical force which he could and wanted to use, and defended me, I told him that it was his duty to defend me even by using violence." – M.K. Gandhi, The Doctrine of the Sword.

Subject: RE: BS: Shooting tragedies and guns
From: Bobert
Date: 18 Dec 12 - 09:54 PM

Give up, Ol'ster... Everyone is convinced that you are a responsible capable gun owner...

You ain't the problem... I doubt seriously if you need an AR15 or 30 round clips to defend yourself...

But alot of folks out there think they do... They are the problem... And guess what else they believe??? They believe that the government is coming to kill them and that Obama wasn't born in the US... These are the people buying the shit... And these people aren't, exactly, responsible adults...

These are the folks we are talkin' about here...

B~

Subject: RE: BS: Shooting tragedies and guns
From: olddude
Date: 18 Dec 12 - 09:30 PM

and a really good gun safe is not just a combo, there is a trick to the numbers they are made kid proof but you can have a weapon ready about as fast as getting it out of a drawer if one needs that level of security.

Subject: RE: BS: Shooting tragedies and guns
From: olddude
Date: 18 Dec 12 - 09:20 PM

Bill
responsible gun owners that are concerned about home invasion still have their weapons secure. First thing, have a nervous little dog. Second if you are going to own a weapon for such purpose, get a gun safe. They have a combo key, you type in the numbers and wham there is your firearm. No kid is going to open it if it is a good one

Subject: RE: BS: Shooting tragedies and guns
From: Bobert
Date: 18 Dec 12 - 09:16 PM

Fine... Kill deer and boars... Lot's of them... They are pests and edible... Plus, they are over-populated...

B~

Subject: RE: BS: Shooting tragedies and guns
From: Henry Krinkle
Date: 18 Dec 12 - 09:05 PM

More and more people are going to become hunters.
By necessity.
=(:-( ))

Subject: RE: BS: Shooting tragedies and guns
From: GUEST,999
Date: 18 Dec 12 - 08:52 PM

"Why do Americans want to go out shooting bears??"

Sometimes it's so they can 'bag a trophy'. Other times it's mostly to render the fat. The hide is a bonus, and the meat will feed sled dogs and people if there's not much whitefish or deer-type creatures. Just in case that was a serious question.

In some places, whole communities depend on either rivers--which aren't worth much in day-to-day terms when they're frozen--or barges (need rivers) or planes. Slice it whichever way, and food that isn't hunted and killed is expensive. I lived 'there' for two years, and when tomatoes were selling about four for a dollar down south, they cost a buck a piece up north. Same goes for apples, oranges, bananas, etc. Meat at the Northern Store cost $30-$50 for a small roast, and 2-3 pound chickens were $15-$20 bucks. The inexpensive time which lasted for about three months was when there were winter roads. (That's another story.)

Yes, it's easy to go to the supermarket--and much more pleasant because someone else killed supper for us--but I'll tell you, that costs big time.

Subject: RE: BS: Shooting tragedies and guns
From: Henry Krinkle
Date: 18 Dec 12 - 08:40 PM

Probably buy them from the federal government. The Mexican drug cartels do.
=(:-( ))

Subject: RE: BS: Shooting tragedies and guns
From: Bobert
Date: 18 Dec 12 - 08:38 PM

Back in the holler in Virgina there was this ol' boy who was about 6'10" and rough as a night in jail and he came up and told me that the former owner allowed him to hunt back in the forest so, hey, me being a purdy tough 6 ft. lightweight said, "Okay"...

The guy always gave me the creeps until one day he came outta the woods with a 150 pound bear which really pissed me off so I told him that I didn't appreciate him shootin' bears and that he couldn't come back...

For a several seconds I'll admit that I thought that he was either going to shoot me punch on me... He did neither and never came back to the farm to hunt...

I mean, there are times when ypou might have to shoot a bear but don't go hunting them...

B~

Subject: RE: BS: Shooting tragedies and guns
From: Bill D
Date: 18 Dec 12 - 08:32 PM

Two more thoughts...

Last year, before the elections, Wayne LaPierre of the NRA was quoted (and recorded) as asserting that Obama & his administration were "corrupt" and "Liars" who were 'seeking to take away all guns'... why? He didn't offer specific details, but seemed to simply want to hang that label on Obama because he was a Democrat and hadn't bought the full NRA line of BS.

also.... gun shows. Lots of people, including gun defenders agree the loopholes are too wide, but I was just thinking: These dealers AT gun shows, and those who sell online.... where do THEY get their stocks of weapons? I assume THEY have to licensed and have valid permits to sell the guns TO people at shows. How are those permits allocated and monitored? Even further... how are importers and stateside manufacturers monitored and regulated? There is a complex system going on to allow multi-millions of weapons of many kinds to flow into dangerous paths.... what are the details?

I can do some research, but if anyone has **clear** knowlege, tell me.

Subject: RE: BS: Shooting tragedies and guns
From: Bee-dubya-ell
Date: 18 Dec 12 - 08:26 PM

If an armed civilian (and I'm talking genuine civilian, not off-duty cop or out-of-uniform military) tries to take out a well armed shooter, there are four possible outcomes:

1) He's successful.

2) The shooter specifically targets him because he has a gun and, thus, poses a greater threat to the shooter than anyone else in the room.

3) When police arrive, they see he's armed and shoot him, thinking he's one of the bad guys.

4) He misses the shooter and harms or kills an innocent person.

If I were a betting man and had a choice of putting $1,000 on Mr. Armed Civilian being a hero against a mass murderer and the Chicago Cubs winning the World Series, I'd go with the Cubs.

Subject: RE: BS: Shooting tragedies and guns
From: pdq
Date: 18 Dec 12 - 08:17 PM

"Garbage bears...are the worst because humans have habituated bears to easy sustenance."

My, my. The ursine welfare state.

Subject: RE: BS: Shooting tragedies and guns
From: Henry Krinkle
Date: 18 Dec 12 - 08:09 PM

Everyone knows I voted Green.
=(:-( P)

Subject: RE: BS: Shooting tragedies and guns
From: Ebbie
Date: 18 Dec 12 - 08:05 PM

Here in southeast Alaska I have seen many bears and had close encounters with several. This is bear country; given spawning salmon, ripened berries, forest all around and many freshwater streams running through it, it is up to humans to stay alert. Garbage bears, as Charmion implied, are the worst because humans have habituated bears to easy sustenance.

Juneau passed new ordinances a few years ago to address the problem; it is against the law now to not use bear-resistant containers and dumpsters. Offenders pay stiff fines. We do pretty well now, much better than in previous years. I remember one year when 14 bears were shot by Fish and Wildlife management. These days officials dart them, collar them and haul them out-the-road away from civilisation. If or when they come back, they are shot.

I realize this is way off-subject. Suffice to say that there are many hunters locally- I don't know what their instruments of choice are.

Subject: RE: BS: Shooting tragedies and guns
From: Ron Davies
Date: 18 Dec 12 - 07:57 PM

"I don't have time for silly.."   

That is, no time to actually learn something about one of your favorite topics to drivel on about.    Or, more succinctly:   "Don't bother me with facts--or even ask me to get the facts."

Why are we not surprised?

It's only a shame that your attitude is widespread--and that you and your fellow intellectual giants vote.    (But of course maybe we're lucky enough that you don't vote).

Subject: RE: BS: Shooting tragedies and guns
From: Bobert
Date: 18 Dec 12 - 07:50 PM

If you listen to birther/NRA/tin foil nation that private ownership of guns saves then trillion people every day...

They cannot substantiate any of their numbers de joir other than use each other as, ahhhhh, their sources/references...

These people, some here, must think that people are absolutely syupid to believe the utter their bullshit...

In New York City, for instance, where there is strict gun control the per capital murder ate is way the heck under any large Southern city with nothing in the way of gun control...

I mean, it is beyond futile trying to have a conversation when people won't use truth but lies put out by the NRA which makes lot$ of money on gun$ and gun $ale$...

$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$

B~

Subject: RE: BS: Shooting tragedies and guns
From: pdq
Date: 18 Dec 12 - 07:31 PM

More on the use of guns to prevent crime...

                                                                                                                      here

Subject: RE: BS: Shooting tragedies and guns
From: Bill D
Date: 18 Dec 12 - 07:22 PM

Charles Whitman of the "Texas Tower" shootings, was 'eventually' shot by police & citizens after a long, extended effort to get to him... they 'may' have saved a few, though most people were well-hidden by the time they got to him.

Th 19 year old kid in the Wichita Holiday Inn shooting that I mentioned earlier (very similar to the Texas Tower thing) was also eventually shot & captured after police managed to get to the room beside the room where he was.,,,he 'only' killed 3 and injured 8.

That one, BTW, is missing from this list... which may list only 4 or more deaths)

Subject: RE: BS: Shooting tragedies and guns
From: CET
Date: 18 Dec 12 - 07:07 PM

": RE: BS: Shooting tragedies and guns
From: GUEST,Lighter - PM
Date: 16 Dec 12 - 10:59 AM

How many times in real life has an armed intruder, bent on mass murder, been taken out by an armed civilian (or even a police officer) before he could kill anybody?

I'll rephrase that. How many times does it even *appear* that a hero has prevented a mass killing by drawing down faster than the heat-packin' bad guy?

Or even managed to *cut short* a shooting spree by nailing the gunman when he wasn't looking?

Come on, guys. How many?"

Well, here's a few that come to mind:

The Fort Hood shooting. Maj Nidal was shot and put out of action by a Military Police woman.

The Dawson College shooting in Montreal. The first cops on the scene went in immediately instead of waiting. My recollection is that the shooter killed himself when the police arrived. I don't think he was in the act of killing people when the police burst in but the point is that the police were on the scene, armed and prepared to shoot him.

Newtown, Connecticut. The police response seems to have been very rapid and according to accounts I have read, Lanza killed himself whe he heard the police nearby, and he had enough ammunition to kill every student in the school. Once again, armed intervention by the police saved lives.

Now if the Guest's point is that there is no recorded instance of a pistol-packing civilian preventing a mass murder by killing the bad guy, he might have a point. I would certainly like to hear about any cases where it did happen. However, he didn't limit his comment to civilians. He specifically mentioned "even a police officer", as if armed intervention by trained and determined people can do no good, which is patent nonsense.

Subject: RE: BS: Shooting tragedies and guns
From: kendall
Date: 18 Dec 12 - 07:04 PM

I live in Rural Maine. Have all my life (up to this point)I've never seen a Bear in the wild, and I've never had any desire to kill one.

Subject: RE: BS: Shooting tragedies and guns
From: Charmion
Date: 18 Dec 12 - 05:58 PM

Eliza, bears that hang around human settlements -- knwn here as "garbage bears" because they ransack garbage bins as they hunt for food -- are sufficiently dangerous that they are usually shot when it is establshed that they cannot be successfully relocated.

I agree that hunting bears for sport seems wrong, but even here in Ottawa I have met a fair few people who have had scary experiences with bears.

Subject: RE: BS: Shooting tragedies and guns
From: Henry Krinkle
Date: 18 Dec 12 - 05:41 PM

I don't want to shoot bears, Eliza. I don't want to shoot any living thing.
Unless I have no other choice.
I'd shoot the coyotes if I could get paid for it, though.
=(:-( ))

Subject: RE: BS: Shooting tragedies and guns
From: kendall
Date: 18 Dec 12 - 05:28 PM

I was misunderstood.

Subject: RE: BS: Shooting tragedies and guns
From: Henry Krinkle
Date: 18 Dec 12 - 05:23 PM

I don't have time for silly Amerikan history.
I'd rather research the history of capital punishment.
=(:-( ))

Subject: RE: BS: Shooting tragedies and guns
From: GUEST,Eliza
Date: 18 Dec 12 - 05:22 PM

Why do Americans want to go out shooting bears?? Unless attacked by one and in great danger, it's a wicked and senseless thing to do. Such huge and beautiful wild animals should be observed, photographed and left in peace to live their lives. Killing, killing, so strange and incomprehensible to me.

Subject: RE: BS: Shooting tragedies and guns
From: voyager
Date: 18 Dec 12 - 05:17 PM

A few comments/observations on this latest episode of senseless violence, innocent murder, gun control opinions, etc....

"A nation's greatness is measured by how it treats its weakest members"
   Mahatman Gandhi

Violence is as American as Cherry Pie
   H. Rap Brown/Jamil Abdullah Al-Amin

A Guide to Mass Shootings in America - Mother Jones

First we will cry and then we will act.

voyager

Subject: RE: BS: Shooting tragedies and guns
From: Ron Davies
Date: 18 Dec 12 - 05:02 PM

"keys to the car"    We are to imply from this that Mr. Krinkle thinks gun owners, by keeping all their guns, could have deterred George W. Bush from idiocy, it seems.

And just how do you envision doing this, Mr. Krinkle?

Were you and the rest of the "well-regulated militia" going to kidnap Mr. Bush?

It seems you've been reading too much Robert Ludlum.

Why don't you try reading some history, so you might just possibly have somewhat of a chance of making sense, for a change? And start with some books about the US, 1783 to 1800.

Subject: RE: BS: Shooting tragedies and guns
From: GUEST,999
Date: 18 Dec 12 - 05:02 PM

"Or a jug of bleach and a jug of ammonia to make nerve gas."

That doesn't produce a nerve agent I don't think, Henry. Lung irritant, and it can cause a person to die from asphyxiation. Of course, my memory ain't what it used to be--and likely never was.

Subject: RE: BS: Shooting tragedies and guns
From: John MacKenzie
Date: 18 Dec 12 - 05:00 PM

Most people over estimate their own abilities. while at the same time under estimating the abilities of others.
I wonder how many people's last words were, "I can take him anytime"

Subject: RE: BS: Shooting tragedies and guns
From: Bill D
Date: 18 Dec 12 - 04:42 PM

Because, Dan, many feel certain arguments and claims are either not factually correct or are logically flawed. PDQ, for example, continues to ignore the fact that I and others HAVE agreed that some ownership of guns is BOTH allowed AND defensible. And your own reasoning about sports cars is 'correct', but irrelevant. Sports cars have other purposes than going very fast.... and their uses on highways is much more watched and regulated than guns are. One can have their license to drive revoked for a few speeding tickets.... and 'usually', speeding does not kill anyone, whereas firing a weapon outside a legal range is often/usually done with the purpose of injuring others!

OF COURSE weapons at home can and should be 'secured', but you KNOW how often they aren't! Those who insist they should be allowed firearms for 'self-defense in the home usually feel that a gun is of little use if they have to unlock a case or closet and load it before 'defending' their home.
There is not enough space on the newspaper's front page for the weekly stories of kids who knew where Dad...(or, sadly, Mom) keeps their guns! A few years ago, my ex-neighbor across the street bragged to me that he had a gun 'available' in every room of the house. He had two girls living at home at that time...under 12.

I will repeat this as long as others keep claiming that 'safety and enforcement' are all that are required.
"As long as a wide range of firearms are allowed to be kept in the home by average citizens, there will continue to be tragedies following burglaries and kids getting a hold of them!"
You simply cannot base the rules and logic on what YOUR abilities and practices tells you are reasonable. YOU will take care....too many others will not!

Subject: RE: BS: Shooting tragedies and guns
From: gnu
Date: 18 Dec 12 - 04:41 PM

Back briefly on techical points. Re don : "forensic checks on a slug" (or csasing). Easy to modify the footprint(s) before and after a crime. Casing are a little harder and require more than simple hand tools. Don't ask - I ain't tellin.

Second point. Yes, semi-autos are easily modified to fire on full auto, as stated many times herein. But, if there is no law restricting mags ("clips" do not include all mags) to five rounds, outlawing gas powered repeaters is useless. I can (could when I did) fire a repeater lever action and pump action AND a bolt action if it's sloppy like a Mauser (got one and it's FAST!)accurately at 3 second intervals, at distance and on fast moving four legged animals. This discussion is not about distance and not about fast moving four legged animals which run MUCH differently than two legged animals. I can (could) knock down what I was shooting at every three seconds without a semi which STILL takes three seconds on accounta that is what takes to aim! Mabey some can do it in less time but that ain't yer average shotter.

Sorry if that is kinda graphic under the "circumstances" but I find compelled to explain the details to ensure people who advocate gun laws understand these technical points because, as I HOPE I have explained, these technical points make a BIG difference when enacting GOOD gun laws. Common sense, informed decisions HAVE to be part of it.

BTW, 9, one of the largest bears ever taken was taken with a 22. But it's easy to be accurate if you can touch it with the barrel.

Subject: RE: BS: Shooting tragedies and guns
From: Bobert
Date: 18 Dec 12 - 04:14 PM

Who is picking on them, Ol'ster... We are disagreeing with their assertion that gun control = banning all guns...

And 400...

B~

Subject: RE: BS: Shooting tragedies and guns
From: pdq
Date: 18 Dec 12 - 04:07 PM

Thanks, Dan.

I am simply asking people to acknowledge the right to own a guns as a prerequisite to their discussing the "reasonable restrictions."

Subject: RE: BS: Shooting tragedies and guns
From: olddude
Date: 18 Dec 12 - 04:01 PM

Why is everyone picking on Bearded Bruce, Henry, Kendall , PDQ .. they have strong opposite opinions like everyone else here has strong opinions. We all agree the gun loopholes need plugged. Enforce the 27,000 laws we have. Do what is right to keep the unstable and criminal from getting a hold of them.

I know guys that have custom sports cars, go over 200 miles an hour on the race track. Don't mean they are going go 200 miles an hour on the highway. It is all about stability and rational people vs unstable people. If someone owns a weapon and likes to shoot, ok but secure the weapon so you kid can't take it and do this terrible stuff. If you own something that is dangerous, a firearm, a car that can rocket 200 miles an hour .. secure the keys .. likewise the weapon. Plug the loopholes. Make sure the people purchasing are background checked even with private purchases, get a federal carry law, get rid of the gun show law. We all be a hell of a lot safer

Subject: RE: BS: Shooting tragedies and guns
From: kendall
Date: 18 Dec 12 - 04:01 PM

When I was on the job I got to fire a Thompson sub machine gun. I was not impressed.
Back when I was a hunter, I used to hunt with a .45 caliber flintlock. Your first shot is your best. After that you are just throwing lead at a moving target.

Subject: RE: BS: Shooting tragedies and guns
From: Megan L
Date: 18 Dec 12 - 04:01 PM

Given the average age on mudcat I put this thread down to senile dementia

Subject: RE: BS: Shooting tragedies and guns
From: Henry Krinkle
Date: 18 Dec 12 - 03:57 PM

When you give people like George Bush the keys to the car, we have plenty to fear.
=(:-( D)

Subject: RE: BS: Shooting tragedies and guns
From: Bobert
Date: 18 Dec 12 - 03:54 PM

They won't talk about that, Ron... It doesn't fit their narrative...

B~

Subject: RE: BS: Shooting tragedies and guns
From: Ron Davies
Date: 18 Dec 12 - 03:50 PM

"Bill of Rights simply enshrined..." right to own guns.

Wrong. It did a lot more than that.

For the reasons I recently stated, it made it plain the right to bear arms was put there for a reason---to defend the US through a "well-regulated" citizen army and thereby avoid the necessity of a standing army, since at the time many feared a standing army.

Now just why are gun owners still afraid of our own army, navy or air force?

Subject: RE: BS: Shooting tragedies and guns
From: Bill D
Date: 18 Dec 12 - 03:12 PM

When the average gun-grabber says
"the 2nd Amendment doesn't say you have the right to own guns",
   they really saying "you have no right to own guns".

Both wrong...you persist in arguing points no one has claimed (at least no one here)

A speculation about the 'real' mind-set of someone who never even said what you claim is the wildest form of "straw man" fallacy.

Subject: RE: BS: Shooting tragedies and guns
From: Henry Krinkle
Date: 18 Dec 12 - 03:08 PM

Or a jug of bleach and a jug of ammonia to make nerve gas.
=(:-( ))

Subject: RE: BS: Shooting tragedies and guns
From: Bobert
Date: 18 Dec 12 - 03:07 PM

As per usual, pdq jimps all over the NRA BS talking point that those of us favoring common sense gun controls want to take everyone's guns away...

That is beyond being a silly statement... Its also an outright lie...

B~

Subject: RE: BS: Shooting tragedies and guns
From: GUEST,999
Date: 18 Dec 12 - 03:01 PM

Or to live up to the plural "bear arms" part, a single-shot .22 short rifle and a rock. There ya go.

Subject: RE: BS: Shooting tragedies and guns
From: GUEST,999
Date: 18 Dec 12 - 02:59 PM

"Nothing left to talk about."

There is much left to talk about. This is not about the second amendment. It is about auto and semi-auto weapons, both pistol and rifle. The requirement of the second amendment can be met by restricting everyone to a single-shot .22, short rifle.

Subject: RE: BS: Shooting tragedies and guns
From: olddude
Date: 18 Dec 12 - 02:58 PM

Anyone that can qualify to own a class III Federal firearms license to shoot a fully auto weapon I have no issue with. They are very well checked out and stable collectors. Not a threat. I own many semi auto handguns and rifles. Other than my semi auto shotgun, they are not very good for hunting. Target shooting yes.   The AR and AK biggest problem is that in gun shows, unstable folks and criminals can get them with no check. Add a 100 round drum magazine and it gets sketchy for sure. So fix the loophole.

I have had lots of fun firing fully auto weapons ... and they belonged to the sheriff's office. I know lots of people who like to shoot and don't hurt anyone

Subject: RE: BS: Shooting tragedies and guns
From: pdq
Date: 18 Dec 12 - 02:51 PM

When the average gun-grabber says

                   "the 2nd Amendment doesn't say you have the right to own guns",

they really saying

                   "you have no right to own guns".

If they start talking about how many rounds a clip should be allowed to hold or how long a waiting period should be, they are talking crap.

They have already said you have no right to that gun at all.

Nothing left to talk about.

Subject: RE: BS: Shooting tragedies and guns
From: Bobert
Date: 18 Dec 12 - 02:46 PM

Yes, raising more responsible and less whacked-out adults-to-be is a noble objective... Until we do, let's just keep them from WMDs, thank you...

B~