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Lord Bateman - new version

DigiTrad:
LORD BATEMAN
LORD BEICHAN (2)
LORD BEICHAN AND SUSIE PYE
LORD BEICHAN AND SUSIE PYE (2)
LORD THOMAS AND FAIR ELLENDER (3)
THE TURKISH LADY


Related threads:
Nimrod Workman Video - Lord Bateman (15)
Lyr Req: Lord Bateman (23)
Tune Req: joseph taylor's lord bateman (Child #53) (5)
(origins) Lyr Add: Lord Beichan and Susie Pye (12)
Lyr Req: Roby Monroe Hicks' Young Beeham (#53) (1)
Lyr Add: Lord Beichan (2) Child No. 53 (13)
LORD BATEMAN query (16)


Phil Edwards 14 Jan 13 - 01:20 PM
Phil Cooper 14 Jan 13 - 04:21 PM
pavane 14 Jan 13 - 07:26 PM
pavane 14 Jan 13 - 07:32 PM
Phil Edwards 15 Jan 13 - 03:52 AM
pavane 15 Jan 13 - 07:38 AM
GUEST,JHW(cookie on old computer) 15 Jan 13 - 06:26 PM
pavane 16 Jan 13 - 02:48 PM
The Sandman 16 Jan 13 - 03:29 PM
Phil Edwards 17 Jan 13 - 10:06 AM
Jim Carroll 17 Jan 13 - 11:05 AM
Phil Edwards 17 Jan 13 - 11:24 AM
Jim Carroll 17 Jan 13 - 01:15 PM
GUEST,Richie 17 Jan 13 - 01:31 PM
Phil Edwards 17 Jan 13 - 02:22 PM
The Sandman 17 Jan 13 - 05:01 PM
Phil Edwards 19 Jan 13 - 12:24 PM
pavane 20 Jan 13 - 04:49 AM
pavane 20 Jan 13 - 04:51 AM
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Subject: Lord Bateman - new version
From: Phil Edwards
Date: 14 Jan 13 - 01:20 PM

I've just recorded & uploaded a new version of Lord Bateman (Child 53, a.k.a. Young Beichan).

Lord Bateman, as sung by Nic Jones & Jim Moray among others, takes its title and most of its words from version 53L. For this new recording I took a look at the other versions (there are 14 in all), and expanded the text by using verses from versions E and H, plus one from the fragmentary version I.

I ended up with 35 verses. That sounds like a lot - well, OK, it is a lot - but it's shorter than five of the 14 versions in Child; version M ("Young Bonwell") runs to 54 verses.

See what you think! (You might want to get a cup of tea first.)

Lord Bateman


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Subject: RE: Lord Bateman - new version
From: Phil Cooper
Date: 14 Jan 13 - 04:21 PM

Well done.


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Subject: RE: Lord Bateman - new version
From: pavane
Date: 14 Jan 13 - 07:26 PM

I never COULD work out the irregular bar structure used by Nic in his version. Seems to throw in extra beats all over the place.


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Subject: RE: Lord Bateman - new version
From: pavane
Date: 14 Jan 13 - 07:32 PM

Just one niggle - the words posted are not the same as the ones sung.


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Subject: RE: Lord Bateman - new version
From: Phil Edwards
Date: 15 Jan 13 - 03:52 AM

That's true, but I think the differences are pretty trivial ("slice of bread"/"piece of bread") and they are the right verses in the right order! I'll go in and clean them up some time.

Interesting you mention Nic Jones's version - it drove me bats as well. A couple of years ago I listened to it four or five times in a row, counting beats as I went - it's actually less irregular than it sounds. The version I've just recorded is more irregular than I'd like - singing it over, I've since arrived at a version in a much steadier 6/6/8/6 rhythm. I'll have to record it now...

More generally, thanks for listening, even those people who didn't make it all the way through (Bandcamp tells me these things - I wish it didn't!). 35 verses is quite a lot to ask!


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Subject: RE: Lord Bateman - new version
From: pavane
Date: 15 Jan 13 - 07:38 AM

I think it is the irregularity that makes Nic's version so good. Adds to the complexity.


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Subject: RE: Lord Bateman - new version
From: GUEST,JHW(cookie on old computer)
Date: 15 Jan 13 - 06:26 PM

I like the irregularity there too and sing substantially Nic's version though I dropped using guitar and maybe vary the timing all the more around the text.
(Have yet to listen to new offering - its late)


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Subject: RE: Lord Bateman - new version
From: pavane
Date: 16 Jan 13 - 02:48 PM

Shame it is Bulmerised and not available.


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Subject: RE: Lord Bateman - new version
From: The Sandman
Date: 16 Jan 13 - 03:29 PM

pete castle recorded a great version


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Subject: RE: Lord Bateman - new version
From: Phil Edwards
Date: 17 Jan 13 - 10:06 AM

I bet he didn't sing 35 verses!


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Subject: RE: Lord Bateman - new version
From: Jim Carroll
Date: 17 Jan 13 - 11:05 AM

This ballad was extremely popular among source singer in this part of West Clare up to about 25 years ago. Tom Munnelly recorded a beautiful version from an old farmer, Joe Kennealey of North Clare and it was later used by Philip Donellan in his film on emigration 'Passage West'
Joe is still singing magnificently at 95.
Two years ago a couple of Travelling women (sister of Wexford Traveller Bill Cassidy, who we recorded in London in the 70s) were guests at a local singing weekend here. During a singing session the sisters were heard muttering together under their breaths at the back of the room - they were trying to put together their father's version of the ballad so one of them could sing it.
They didn't quite get it all but one of them sang what they could remember later that weekend
Jim Carroll


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Subject: RE: Lord Bateman - new version
From: Phil Edwards
Date: 17 Jan 13 - 11:24 AM

Fascinating. I'd love to know how a contemporary version compares with my 200-year-old text[s].

It's a surprisingly 'branchy' ballad, despite the seemingly straightforward story. For instance, in one of the Child versions the wedding has been going on for a month, because Lord Bateman has already had second thoughts and is refusing to take his bride to bed - presumably Lord B's Mum and Dad (and the young bride's mother) are hoping to talk him round before word gets out. It's a great little elaboration, but there's a verse right at the end with the line "Lord Bateman's wed twice in one day", and I couldn't use that and have the wedding go on for that long ("Lord Bateman's wed twice in one month"?) I can quite imagine people having trouble piecing together a version.


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Subject: RE: Lord Bateman - new version
From: Jim Carroll
Date: 17 Jan 13 - 01:15 PM

Will transcribe Joe Conneely's version when I get time.
Forgot to mention that Tom Munnelly also recorded a version from Traveller John Reilly; I think it was issued on the Topic album 'Bonny Green Tree'
Nobody has mentioned the 'Thomas a-Becket' connection; the ballad is said to be based on a legend concerning the travels of Becket's father Gilbert (below, from Child's note)
Jim Carroll

This story of Beichan, or Bekie., agrees in the general outline, and also in some details, with a Well known legend about Gilbert Beket, father of St Thomas. The earlier and more authentic biographies lack this particular bit of romance, but the legend nevertheless goes back to a date not much later than a century after the death of the saint, being found in a poetical narrative preserved in a manuscript of about 1300.
We learn from this legend that Gilbert Beket, in his youth, assumed the cross and went to the Holy Land, accompanied only by one Richard, his servant. They "did their pilgrimage" in holy places, and at last, With other Christians, were made captive by the Saracens and put in strong prison. They suffered great hardship and ignominy in the service of the Saracen prince Admiraud. But Gilbert found more grace than the rest; he was promoted to serve the prince at meat (in his chains), and the prince often would ask him about England and the English faith. Admiraud's only daughter fell in love with Gilbert, and when she saw her time, in turn asked him the like questions. Gilbert told her that he was born in London; told her of the belief of Christians, and of the endless bliss that should be their meed. The maid asked him if he was ready to die for his Lord's love, and Gilbert declared that he would, joyfully. When the maid saw that he was so steadfast, she stood long in thought, and then said, I will quit all for love of thee, and become Christian, if thou wilt marry me. Gilbert feared that this might be a wile; he replied that he was at her disposition, but he must bethink himself. Shewent on loving him, the longer the more.
After this Gilbert and the rest broke prison and made their way to the Christians. The prince's daughter, reduced to desperation by love and grief, left her heritage and her kin, sparing for no sorrow, peril, or contempt that might come to her, not knowing whither to go or whether he would marry her when found, and Went in quest of Gilbert. She asked the way to England, and when she had come there had no word but London to assist her further.
She roamed through the streets, followed by a noisy and jeering crowd of wild boys and what not, until one day by chance she stopped by the house in which Gilbert lived. The man Richard, hearing a tumult, came out to see what was the matter, recognized the princess, and ran to tell his master Gilbert bade Richard take the lady to the house of a respectable Woinau near by, and presently went to see her. She swooned when she saw him.
Gilbert was nothing if not discreet: he "held him still," as if he had nothing in mind. But there was a conference of six bishops just then at St. Paul's, and he went and told them his story and asked advice. One of the six prophetically saw a divine indication that the two were meant to be married, and all finally recommended this if the lady would become Christian. Brought before the bishops she said, Most gladly, if he will espouse me; else I had not left my kin. She was baptized with great ceremony, and the marriage followed.
The very day after the Wedding Gilbert was seized with such an overmastering desire to go back to the Holy Land that he wist not what to do. But his Wife was thoroughly converted, and after a struggle with herself she consented, on condition that Beket should leave with her the man Richard, who knew her language. Gilbert was gone three years and a half, and when he came back Thomas was a fine boy.
That our ballad has been affected by the legend of Gilbert Beket is altogether likely.
The name Bekie is very close to Beket, and several versions, A, D, H, I, N, set out rather formally with the announcement that Bekie was London born, like the Latin biographies and the versified one of Garnier de Pont Sainte Maxence. Our ballad, also, in some versions, has the Moor's daughter baptized, a point which of course could not fail in the legend.
More important still is it that the hero of the English ballad goes home and forgets the woman he has left in a foreign land, instead of going away from home and forgetting the love he has left there. But the ballad, for all that, is not derived from the legend. Stories and ballads of the general cast of 'Young Beichan ' are extremely frequent.


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Subject: RE: Lord Bateman - new version
From: GUEST,Richie
Date: 17 Jan 13 - 01:31 PM

I've put a few of the versions on my site- here's the illustrated version from 1839:

http://bluegrassmessengers.com/the-loving-ballad-of-lord-bateman--1839-child-l.aspx

Richie


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Subject: RE: Lord Bateman - new version
From: Phil Edwards
Date: 17 Jan 13 - 02:22 PM

Blimey, Richie - that's quite a site you've got there. Bookmarked!


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Subject: RE: Lord Bateman - new version
From: The Sandman
Date: 17 Jan 13 - 05:01 PM

i believe sharp collected a version from a devon singer which has as m part of the first verse, until he came to proud torquay.


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Subject: RE: Lord Bateman - new version
From: Phil Edwards
Date: 19 Jan 13 - 12:24 PM

You don't want to mess with those Torqs.

Small update: I've re-recorded it; same tune, same verses, but pitched up a bit. I've also got the rhythm off a bit better (particularly between verses), with the result that I've shaved 46 seconds off the total running time.

Lord Bateman


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Subject: RE: Lord Bateman - new version
From: pavane
Date: 20 Jan 13 - 04:49 AM

Thomas Becket though, the a' was spurious later addition:

"The name "Thomas à Becket" is not contemporary, and appears to be a post-Reformation creation, possibly in imitation of Thomas à Kempis."


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Subject: RE: Lord Bateman - new version
From: pavane
Date: 20 Jan 13 - 04:51 AM

Also found in a search:
There is a story that Thomas's mother was a Saracen princess who met and fell in love with his English father while he was on Crusade or pilgrimage in the Holy Land, followed him home, was baptised and married him. This story has no truth to it, being a fabrication from three centuries after the saint's martyrdom and inserted as a forgery into Edward Grim's contemporary (12th century) Life of St Thomas.

You pays your money etc


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