BS: It's global warming, stupid!

Subject: RE: BS: It's global warming, stupid!
From: Ed T
Date: 17 Jan 13 - 02:39 PM

Interesting Qs and As from the European Project on Ocean Acidification:



Science Qs and As on ocean acidification

Subject: RE: BS: It's global warming, stupid!
From: GUEST,sciencegeek
Date: 17 Jan 13 - 02:16 PM

makes you wonder what's up with the calcium & magnesium in oceanic water that would be binding with the bicarbonate.

the burning of fossil fuels releases carbon that has been out of circulation for 400 million years or so... talk about too much of a good thing.

Subject: RE: BS: It's global warming, stupid!
From: Ed T
Date: 17 Jan 13 - 12:33 PM

Some deeper, and broader science on ocean acidification, for those who like it:)
Ocean acidification

Subject: RE: BS: It's global warming, stupid!
From: GUEST,sciencegeek
Date: 17 Jan 13 - 12:18 PM

about bovine flatulance... if you look more closely at the so called studies you might notice that it is skewed to come up with the conclusion that the problem disappears if humans go vegan.... duh.

As if domestic animals are the only source... how about ruminants in general... and how do you explain India? Cattle are a critical part of the agrarian culture while only a minor source of protein for rhis largely vegetarian nation.

This biggest producers of methane from digestion/fermantation were dinosaurs - pardon the pun. And they did quite nicely for hundreds of millions of years.

Subject: RE: BS: It's global warming, stupid!
From: Ed T
Date: 17 Jan 13 - 12:15 PM

Some science on ocean acidification:
Ocean acidification

The National Research Council's Ocean Studies Board

Subject: RE: BS: It's global warming, stupid!
From: GUEST,sciencegeek
Date: 17 Jan 13 - 12:07 PM

weird... no clue what happened to my previous post.

Acid rain is caused by emissions of sulfur dioxide and nitrogen oxide, which react with the water molecules in the atmosphere to produce acidic precipitation... this comes from natural sources like volcanic gases, not just human activity.

Carbon dioxide dissolves in water... the colder the more gas is dissolved... which is taken up by organisms, many of which use it to make shells of carbonate material, not just those that are photosynthetic. Carbonic acid quickly reacts to form compounds like carbonates.

Carbonates buffer acidity... pour some vinegar on limestone or marble to see the reaction in action... lol.

You CAN NOT just look at one little piece and think you see the whole picture anymore that the ten blind guys could "picture" an elephant by touching a single part of the critter.

If were easy we wouldn't be having this "discussion".

Subject: RE: BS: It's global warming, stupid!
From: GUEST,sciencegeek
Date: 17 Jan 13 - 11:50 AM

Subject: RE: BS: It's global warming, stupid!
From: Don(Wyziwyg)T
Date: 17 Jan 13 - 11:48 AM

Methane is another greenhouse gas which isn't apparent in any of the above comment.

Surprising since its effects are far greater than carbon dioxide.

There are claims that food production (domestic cattle) is a major source, but according to Stephen Fry's QI program, which is usually reliable, the largest producers of methane on the planet are termites.

Good luck trying to stop those little buggers.

The point is that even warming caused directly by non human sources may still have indirect links with, or be the result of, human activity.

We do seem to be standing there with a smoking gun in our collective hands, and to deny that is hiding our heads in the sand.

Unless we give up denial and start to take sensible action, that tipping point Sciencegeek was talking about will be reached.

I'm sure the Neanderthals thought they would go on forever and where are they now? We are no more immune from the effects of climate change than they, or the Mammoth, or the Sabretooth Cat.

Don T.

Subject: RE: BS: It's global warming, stupid!
From: Ed T
Date: 17 Jan 13 - 10:48 AM

""the biggest absorber of carbon is the ocean...""

Yes and look at how the increased carbon absorbtion in the ocean is now increasing ocean acidity, potentially threating ocean life (and I suspect the phytoplankton that takes up much of the carbon from the atmosphere).

A simple experiment shows that "when you push on one area of a balloon, it merely pops out elsewhere".

Subject: RE: BS: It's global warming, stupid!
From: Keith A of Hertford
Date: 17 Jan 13 - 10:32 AM

Big Oil and Coal.
There is no green ecofriendly alternative ready to replace them.
Our Western lifestyle is just unsustainable.
Sorry.

Subject: RE: BS: It's global warming, stupid!
From: GUEST,sciencegeek
Date: 17 Jan 13 - 09:51 AM

thanks, gnu

a major problem we humans have is social inertia ... getting off our collective asses and challenging the same old way of doing things.

we push green technology .. and ignore the simple cheap & easy ways...

you know work WITH nature kinds of things. why keep installing pavement that increases runoff and flooding issues when you can use a combination of geogrids or other methods that are then interplanted with carbon dioxide, water absorbing vegetation?

the biggest absorber of carbon is the ocean... both the water & the phytoplankton... with terrestrial vegetation a distant second. Planting more trees will not only absorb carbon, but it will lock it in the wood, not to be released until it either decays or is burned.

Small steps, but well worth taking... plants not only absorb carbon, but air pollutants as well.... besides respiring O2 and tempering the immediate temperatures.

Think globally and act locally is paramount... because waiting for others to do it... well go reread Aesop's Fables and you'll figure it out.

Subject: RE: BS: It's global warming, stupid!
From: gnu
Date: 17 Jan 13 - 08:39 AM

Good job, sciencegeek. Short and sweet. Much better than I could have said it.

Subject: RE: BS: It's global warming, stupid!
From: sciencegeek
Date: 17 Jan 13 - 07:05 AM

there are ways to determine previous climates, atmospheric compositions and other information without having been there with scientific monitoring equipment. And that is information that has been gathered by scientists for quite some time and used to support the global warming hypothesis.

Atmospheric gases are trapped in snow & ice.... deep bores taken from polar ice packs is tested to determine atmospheric gas composition for a long geologic period. Different isotopes of carbon and oxygen in ancient ice cores is used to determine temperatures.

Trees growth is related to temperature and long lived trees can show the growth rings that resulted from temperatures over their lifetime. Fossilized trees can provide similar information.

Ancient environments left behind sediments that can be studied for evidence of what type of climate existed during its formation.

Scientists from many different disciplines have collected data that is available for all to study and view from the many points of view. When evidence from multiple sources is put together it should become harder to refute... at least in a rational fashion.

So, the thread title reveals the exasperation of those who have to put up with the willing blindness of people who ignore anything that disturbs their worldview. Who seek to discredit rather than actually investigate the evidence.

Subject: RE: BS: It's global warming, stupid!
From: gnu
Date: 17 Jan 13 - 07:01 AM

It's a cycle.

Subject: RE: BS: It's global warming, stupid!
From: VirginiaTam
Date: 17 Jan 13 - 07:01 AM

"Now there are some things in the world we can't change – gravity, entropy, the speed of light, the first and second Laws of Thermodynamics, and our biological nature that requires clean air, clean water, clean soil, clean energy and biodiversity for our health and well being. Protecting the biosphere should be our highest priority or else we sicken and die. Other things, like capitalism, free enterprise, the economy, currency, the market, are not forces of nature, we invented them. They are not immutable and we can change them. It makes no sense to elevate economics above the biosphere, for example." David Suzuki

Subject: RE: BS: It's global warming, stupid!
From: gnu
Date: 17 Jan 13 - 06:57 AM

I think arguements in favour of reducing the human footprint are valid.

I think arguements which attempt to instill panic by saying humans are THE cause of global warming are invalid.

Rumncoke... my apologies. Perhaps a better phrasing would be : are you aware of any studies which examine climate (eg annual precipitaion) other atmosmosperic/ice/soil compositions by region and other factors which would impact the cool/warm cycle?

Subject: RE: BS: It's global warming, stupid!
From: Ed T
Date: 17 Jan 13 - 06:08 AM

""If there is climate change, some of it may be due to our actions""

To take a reasonable approach, maybe so? But, would it not be just as reasonable to consider very much could be due to our actions, as none of it is due to human actions?

I agree that to engourage reasoned discussion, thread posters should select non-provoking titles. I suspect some chosen are tit-for-tat reasons,   stimulated by similar ones in the past.

Subject: RE: BS: It's global warming, stupid!
From: Nigel Parsons
Date: 17 Jan 13 - 05:44 AM

Anybody who starts a discussion with a heading such as:
"It's global warming, stupid!"
is immediately, and unconditionally, refusing to accept that any contra arguments may have any merit. As such, to attempt to put any reasonable arguments (unless they support the original posting) is pointless.

This seems to be a common strategy of those who believe that 'Global Warming' has been proved to be caused by human actions.

Such people will always trot out comments about scientists with opposed views being funded by the fossil fuels industry etc., but will ignore the suggestion that anyone who claims to be a 'Climate Scientist' will only continue to find paid employment while there is a belief that there is something wrong with the climate.

I agree that we seem to be seeing some more severe weather systems.
Ice coverage of some parts of the globe seem to be decreasing (compared to some previous measures)
Climate may be changing (although I was taught in school that 'Climate' is a consideration of general conditions over a 30 year period)
If there is climate change, some of it may be due to our actions.

Due to the viewpoint (noted above) of the original poster it seems pointless to get into a debate about these matters.

Subject: RE: BS: It's global warming, stupid!
From: GUEST,Shimrod
Date: 17 Jan 13 - 04:41 AM

Fossil fuels - coal, oil, gas etc. accumulated over millions of years. The human race has dug up a very large percentage of these materials, such that easily accessible reserves of oil, at least, are now much scarcer, and burned them in just a few human lifetimes. It's probable that a major part of this burning has taken place in my lifetime - I'm 65 this year. Surely, we must expect some adverse consequences from such a monstrous enterprise? As I understand it, the second?, third? Law of Thermodynamics says that if you pump more energy into a system it becomes more disordered. Although it's probably too early to tell absolutely, the climate seems to be becoming more disordered.

Subject: RE: BS: It's global warming, stupid!
From: Bobert
Date: 16 Jan 13 - 07:38 PM

************************POP QUIZ************************

Who doesn't want Earth friendly energy sources to be developed???

A. Big Oil & Coal

B. Big Oil & Coal

C. Big Oil & Coal

Pick one...

B~

Subject: RE: BS: It's global warming, stupid!
From: pdq
Date: 16 Jan 13 - 07:33 PM

We don't even have accurate temperature data before about 1800.

Anyone who thinks we had CO₂ sensors before modern times is deluded or on drugs.

Subject: RE: BS: It's global warming, stupid!
From: gnu
Date: 16 Jan 13 - 07:28 PM

"However, levels of carbon dioxide in the atmosphere are far higher than a few thousand years ago."

Prove it.

I am not saying you cannot. I just want you to support your arguement. Fair request?

Subject: RE: BS: It's global warming, stupid!
From: Rumncoke
Date: 16 Jan 13 - 06:58 PM

Nitrous oxide - laughing gas - is a much more heating gas than carbon dioxide and where carbon dioxide is happily absorbed by plants I don't know of anything that actively absorbs nitrous oxide.

However, levels of carbon dioxide in the atmosphere are far higher than a few thousand years ago. Even if the life of a molecule of it is not all that long, the number of molecules has been is increased.

I'd think that we really should be covering every square foot of soil with things that grow. When the permafrost melts and the dead plants and animals it contains start to decompose then the level of carbon dioxide is really going to rise.

Subject: RE: BS: It's global warming, stupid!
From: Ed T
Date: 16 Jan 13 - 03:51 PM

""What the science says...
Individual carbon dioxide molecules have a short life time of around 5 years in the atmosphere. However, when they leave the atmosphere, they're simply swapping places with carbon dioxide in the ocean. The final amount of extra CO2 that remains in the atmosphere stays there on a time scale of centuries.""....."" It is true that an individual molecule of CO2 has a short residence time in the atmosphere. However, in most cases when a molecule of CO2 leaves the atmosphere it is simply swapping places with one in the ocean. Thus, the warming potential of CO2 has very little to do with the residence time of CO2.""



From: Skeptical Science

Subject: RE: BS: It's global warming, stupid!
From: GUEST,TIA
Date: 16 Jan 13 - 03:36 PM

"Last time I checked the facts, about 1/3 of all atmospheric carbon is removed each year"

This is kind of silly as a stand-alone statement. If this were the truth and the whole truth, atmospheric co2 concentrations should be falling, not rising steadily (as they clearly are).

Are we perhaps talking about residence time or turnover time?

A co2 molecule does have an average residence time in the atmosphere of about 5 years, but when it leaves, it typically swaps places with one in the geosphere or hydrosphere (e.g. if a co2 molecule is sequestered in a tree, another tree dies and decays, releasing co2). This turnover has been pretty stable over geologic time (it has clearly changed, but the change has been very very slow).

Massive burning of fossil fuels quickly puts lots of co2 molecules in the atmosphere, that may only stay there for about 5 years, but their return and sequestration (in trees or carbonate sediments or whatever) is slower than the rate at which additional co2 molecules are pumped into the atmosphere. So the residence time is ultimately irrelevant.

Subject: RE: BS: It's global warming, stupid!
From: Ed T
Date: 16 Jan 13 - 02:31 PM

""Last time I checked the facts, about 1/3 of all atmospheric carbon is removed each year""

Can you provide a source, or, better yet a link, to the "fact" you refer to in the above statement? I rarely accept anything anyone says is a fact (versus opinion, or bias), unless I see the source and the route that was used to get to such a conclusion.

Subject: RE: BS: It's global warming, stupid!
From: GUEST,999
Date: 16 Jan 13 - 10:51 AM

There are three places we can put garbage, and that's a part of the problem. We can put it in the air, on the land or in the water. Th-th-th-th-that's all folks.

Subject: RE: BS: It's global warming, stupid!
From: GUEST,sciencegeek
Date: 16 Jan 13 - 10:32 AM

removal of carbon (in the form of carbon dioxide)from the atmosphere is part of the Carbon Cycle... which you should have learned about in grade school science class.

Since all life known on this planet is carbon based, carbon is the primary ingredient of biomass. The more carbon bond into biomass, the less that is available to float in the atmosphere and be dissolved in the hydrosphere. Removal of carbon from the cycle is called sequestration. Bind it into biomass like tree trunks or bury biomass in the ground or mud - the processes that resulted in oil & coal.

But since carbon dioxide in the atmosphere is only one factor in global warming - via what is known as the Greenhouse Effect- we have other things to keep track of.

Solar energy (heat) is either absorbed or reflected ( albedo effect).. or in greenhouse effect gets down to the surface but is then trapped in the atmosphere. It is all the trapped solar energy that powers our weather activity. The more energy the wilder the weather. Surprise surprise.

Subject: RE: BS: It's global warming, stupid!
From: pdq
Date: 15 Jan 13 - 03:31 PM

"I suspect that is because the investment has already made in the atmosphere (the stuff is already up there) - that will impact us for the next 100 years (even if we put nothing else up)."

Last time I checked the facts, about 1/3 of all atmospheric carbon is removed each year.

With none coming in to replace it, the level would be less the 1% of present level in about 10 years time.

The claim that polution from the begining of the Industrial Revolution is still there shows how warped and unsuppoterd most of the GW promoters claims are.

Subject: RE: BS: It's global warming, stupid!
From: Ed T
Date: 15 Jan 13 - 03:13 PM

""If we did everything we could to reduce these emissions we could buy ourselves up to half a degree less warming""

I suspect that is because the investment has already made in the atmosphere (the stuff is already up there) - that will impact us for the next 100 years (even if we put nothing else up).

Subject: RE: BS: It's global warming, stupid!
From: gnu
Date: 15 Jan 13 - 03:09 PM

sciencegeek & GUEST... let's not bring logic into this discussion! Think about the panicists. They NEED to ignore historical and scientific facts in order to have something to panic about.

Go ahead panicists... shit on my day... by degrees. >;-)

Just TRY to get some true perspective based on good science, okay?

Subject: RE: BS: It's global warming, stupid!
From: GUEST
Date: 15 Jan 13 - 02:56 PM

http://www.bbc.co.uk/news/science-environment-21033078

    If we did everything we could to reduce these emissions we could buy ourselves up to half a degree less warming"

Prof Piers Forster University of Leeds"

Subject: RE: BS: It's global warming, stupid!
From: GUEST,sciencegeek
Date: 15 Jan 13 - 02:45 PM

The joy of living in an interglacial period is much akin to living in "interesting times".

Ultimately it is the amount of energy coming from our sun that keeps the planet habitable - for now at least, cosmically speaking. But we have:
1 an atmosphere that moderates solar radiation,
2 a tilt & wobble of the planitary axis that causes irregular heating of the surface that reflects or absorbs radiation/heat differently based on surface material,
3 a sun that does NOT produce solar radiation at a uniform, never changing rate,
4 volcanic activity and now human activity that changes the makeup of said atmosphere,
5 whatever I left off but can still be a factor :).

Try balancing that all out ... you make models based on observations and best guesses on current trends... cross your fingers and then keep refining your work. And put up with the second guessing and denial of those who just do not want their comfortable ideas or vested interests to be disturbed.

Where is the "tipping point"? Hopefully we aren't there yet or likely to be soon, because we are having a hard enough time supporting the current population - which is still increasing- and major climatic change may screw our ability to raise adequate food for those hungry mouths.

The geek likes to try and stay optimistic... but sometimes it's just hard.

Subject: RE: BS: It's global warming, stupid!
From: Q (Frank Staplin)
Date: 15 Jan 13 - 02:33 PM

pdq- your predictions for Feb. will be watched.

Albuquerque extremes for February are 76 and -5 (F); January 69 and -17. 28 is well within normal range.
http://www.wrcc.dri.edu/cgi-bin/clilcd.pl?nm23050

Flagstaff- Jan. extremes 66 and -22; 16 and -9 are well within normal range.

Temperatures for other cities are also well within normal range.

What is your point? Short term data are useless.

Subject: RE: BS: It's global warming, stupid!
From: gnu
Date: 15 Jan 13 - 02:08 PM

Ed... excellent link! Good find.

Looking at the graphs, I was immediately intrigued by their similarity in regression analysis trend slope values (visually). Only one linear regression seems marked different from the others and it is in the northmost zone of the analyses which, empirically, makes sense to me.

I would be interested in finding out if the same types of analyses have been carried out for other ice regions, north and south, thereby allowing a comparison of slope values. Of course, I don't think any Canuck polar bears could be arsed to bother researching such a thing as I think the data and it's analyses is conclusive in the overall and my ponderance of any similarities would only be furthered if they were similar. And, I suppose, the opposite would be true but my lethargy in such regard is mostly due to the fact that I have a gut feeling the whole planet is on the same (slippery) slope.

Subject: RE: BS: It's global warming, stupid!
From: pdq
Date: 15 Jan 13 - 02:07 PM

14 FEB 2013

ALBUQUERQUE          28   10

AMARILLO                     29   17

COLORADO SPGS       15    -4

SALT LAKE CITY          15   11

RENO                              29    17   

FLAGSTAFF                  16    -9   

LAS VEGAS                  38 24

Subject: RE: BS: It's global warming, stupid!
From: ollaimh
Date: 15 Jan 13 - 02:06 PM

Q isn\t attacking climate change science. have we entered bizzaro world. this is the guy who uses every thread he can to fling mud at natives, even if it is fifteen thoiusand year old mud. fox news only went back 14 years to get a gotcha quote against obama, q had to look back fifteen thousand years to find a now debunked theory why the enviornmental crisis was of course started by natives.

kooks reveal their bigotry when they speak openly. most just talk to the converted so it takes them a while to learn that there is a real world out there

Subject: RE: BS: It's global warming, stupid!
From: Bonzo3legs
Date: 15 Jan 13 - 01:58 PM

Looking forward to our next flight!!!

Subject: RE: BS: It's global warming, stupid!
From: GUEST
Date: 15 Jan 13 - 01:46 PM

Mind you i am not saying it is the Sun,our Sun is prob being influenced too for all we know.Plus how much of the spectrum do we see;can measure.
Pity we don't have Tesla cosmic phone number.
http://www.pbs.org/tesla/ll/pv_gossip_pop.html

Subject: RE: BS: It's global warming, stupid!
From: GUEST
Date: 15 Jan 13 - 01:39 PM

Been a while since i went through all this but,plenty of research out there and it is a pretty controversial subject as i am sure you know.8)
   http://www.dakotavoice.com/2009/06/nasa-study-shows-sun-responsible-for-planet-warming/ ....here is a pretty balanced viewish.Could flood you with more then flood you with the contrary so a bit meh.
    I'm still not sure myself but i think anyone who says they know for sure are ..well wrong heh. Too many leaps of faith on "our behalf" the EU option covers all aspects of our existence and clears up a lot of jumbled mess;unites everything.Imho way way too much evidence for the EU now.Anyhow all old hat really, if only we could give Tesla the greatest mind/scientist that ever drew breath the credit he deserved we would be in better shape.Opinion of course.8)

Subject: RE: BS: It's global warming, stupid!
From: Ed T
Date: 15 Jan 13 - 11:58 AM

... ""we aren't poisoning the other planets that exp the same phenomena".

Curious: How so, "the same phenomena" in the other planets?
Explain.

Subject: RE: BS: It's global climate penulum, stupid!
From: John on the Sunset Coast
Date: 15 Jan 13 - 11:45 AM

'Nuff said.

Subject: RE: BS: It's global warming, stupid!
From: GUEST
Date: 15 Jan 13 - 03:08 AM

http://science.nasa.gov/heliophysics/focus-areas/magnetosphere-ionosphere/

You can't discuss climate change without understanding the Sun-Earth relationship.Yes we are poisoning the planet but we aren't poisoning the other planets that exp the same phenomena.We are not the center of the universe,old Sol is not the center either is it.Another puzzler Sols temp does not seem to be the cause.Perhaps we have to start thinking bigger to understand.School doesn't teach you about the electric uni so most don't even take this into consideration.Stupid such a iffy word like intelligence.Stuuupid is as...8)Seriously the subject has been destroyed by selfish interests both financial and intellectual.Very hard to find research not infected by the Me/Mine its personal disease.

Subject: RE: BS: It's global warming, stupid!
From: Keef
Date: 15 Jan 13 - 12:03 AM

It's not "Big Oil" you need to fear.
It's BIG APATHY and BIG SELF INTEREST

Turn off, tune out, give up!

Subject: RE: BS: It's global warming, stupid!
From: Bobert
Date: 14 Jan 13 - 10:34 PM

************************For the record**************************

The real climatologists have predicted that weather would get real
weird before it settled in to a warmer cycle...

Yup, that has occurred... San Diego is freezing right now and here in Charotte, NC, it's 65 degrees... We should be 30 degrees under that...

"Weird weather"???

So what happens when a section of the polar ice caps the size of the continental United States melts in just one year??? Well, what happens in that cold ice brings down the temperatures of the Pacific Ocean off the the US's northwest coast...

Hmmmmmm???

"Weird weather"???

I mean, let's get real here... We won't turn back the damage that we have done... That damage is done and that accounts for our...

..."weird weather"...

At best, we can perhaps slow down the complete destruction of the planet but...

... that ain't gonna happen either because Big Oil won't let it...

B~

Subject: RE: BS: It's global warming, stupid!
From: Rumncoke
Date: 14 Jan 13 - 10:16 PM

Here in the South of England it has been raining all Summer after a drought in Spring.

Food prices have gone up, some things have been scarce, and my apple trees are in a poor way - two years ago they were drooping under the weight of fruit, last year there were a few dozen cracked apples which fell off before they ripened.

Many people imagine that global warming means more sun - but warm air holds more moisture, so more clouds, and so more rain, snow or other precipitation.

Subject: RE: BS: It's global warming, stupid!
From: Keef
Date: 14 Jan 13 - 08:57 PM

(in Oz)
It aint alf ot mum!

Subject: RE: BS: It's global warming, stupid!
From: Q (Frank Staplin)
Date: 14 Jan 13 - 08:37 PM

Natural variation in climate can be severe, exacerbated by man's activities, which is the stupid part of the equation.

The lead-in time to climate neutral industry and living habits is 50 years or more, and as time goes on, the gap is not being reduced.
The expense will be tremendous and increased taxes and costs are a no-no not only to politicians but to all of us (what, me worry?).

Big media or little media, they all lead us to believe that the inevitable can always be put off. But the media only echo what we want to believe.

Subject: RE: BS: It's global warming, stupid!
From: Bobert
Date: 14 Jan 13 - 07:53 PM

The problem we have is with Big Media... 99 climatologists can agree that man's activities are responsible for climate change and 1 wacko disagree and guess what... The wacko gets ***equal*** time???

WTF???

B~

Subject: RE: BS: It's global warming, stupid!
From: Ed T
Date: 14 Jan 13 - 07:52 PM

No comment just information:

Northern Canada Sea-Ice trends, 2011