BS: Militant atheism has become a religion

Subject: RE: BS: Militant atheism has become a religion
From: Ron Davies
Date: 22 Apr 13 - 10:42 AM

So teaching religion is "brainwashing" kids but not "child abuse".

Thank, you, Mr. Hairsplitter.

We're still waiting for your admission that it is up to the parents---and nobody else --to determine what sort of religious education--if any--a child receives.

As Joe and others have pointed out, there are lots of religious people who are willing to let others live their lives without imposing any religious requirements on them.   You, on the other hand, seem champing at the bit to stop all religious instruction---including of that of children of religious people.

Now who is the intolerant one, presuming to tell others how they should live?

Have you looked in the mirror lately?

Subject: RE: BS: Militant atheism has become a religion
From: Jack the Sailor
Date: 22 Apr 13 - 09:22 AM

"in these discussions."

I said

"in these discussions."

A lack of moral grounding and reading skills

Poor reading skills as well?

Subject: RE: BS: Militant atheism has become a religion
From: Jack the Sailor
Date: 22 Apr 13 - 09:20 AM

Ahhhhh!!!! 500!!

Subject: RE: BS: Militant atheism has become a religion
From: Steve Shaw
Date: 22 Apr 13 - 08:53 AM

My moral grounding is nothing if not consistent, thanks. It would pay you not to question that in an individual you don't know. Otherwise it's your moral grounding that's in question, not mine. Cheers.

Subject: RE: BS: Militant atheism has become a religion
From: Jack the Sailor
Date: 22 Apr 13 - 08:33 AM

Mr. Shaw et al. whine piteously about religious figures who tell others how they ought to live and what to believe.   But they generously share their firm conviction that religious instruction is child abuse and as such should be allowed ?? at least according to Shaw? Why? Because his principles don't extend any further than whining on the Mudcat? If it is not about anything in the real world, other than the chance for Shaw to insult and try to bully, what is the point?

What do the words "child abuse" mean in this situation? Are they just another stone he can smugly throw like "delusion." Is anyone else besides me beginning to see that Mr. Shaw has no moral grounding in these discussions?

Subject: RE: BS: Militant atheism has become a religion
From: Steve Shaw
Date: 22 Apr 13 - 05:40 AM

Mr. Shaw et al. whine piteously about religious figures who tell others how they ought to live and what to believe.   But they generously share their firm conviction that religious instruction is child abuse and as such should not be allowed

I've never said that religious instruction "should not be allowed". I state my opinion on what I think of it. Read what you like into what I type but I do express myself clearly. And I have not said those things. And you have the nerve to accuse me of intolerance. Go into the "very silly" column with Jacko, pete and Guffers.

Subject: RE: BS: Militant atheism has become a religion
From: Steve Shaw
Date: 22 Apr 13 - 05:31 AM

Nope, sorry, I'm sticking to this. I'm talking about lying to your children. Telling them that what is almost certainly untrue is the Big Truth. I'm not telling anyone whether they should be doing it or not. What I am saying is that honest people should see it for what it is. No-one is perfect when they're bringing up children. But there is a big difference between making human mistakes with them and deliberately misleading them. And it is deliberate (it's your choice) and it is misleading (telling them they don't need evidence). And it isn't just your business (those children go out one day into the bigger wider world). What the parents and teachers and religious leaders of the 9-11 killers told them was very much your business. Yep, a terrible example. But still an example. Those killers thought that myth was truth.

Subject: RE: BS: Militant atheism has become a religion
From: GUEST,Spleen Cringe
Date: 22 Apr 13 - 02:43 AM

I do think that calling bringing kids up to identify with a particular variety of the many brands of the one-and-only true religion child abuse is probably a little emotive. But speaking from personal experience it is indoctrination and can it take much time and effort to shake it off - and it could be said that you never completely shake it off: I know plenty of atheists riddled with Catholic guilt, for instance. Having said that, we all indoctrinate our kids one way or another - for instance I'm indoctrinating mine to know right from wrong and to think for himself...

Subject: RE: BS: Militant atheism has become a religion
From: Ron Davies
Date: 21 Apr 13 - 11:56 PM

"wrong to implant faith"


As Jack has pointed out, it is up to the parents to decide whether religious instruction is good for a child or not.    Believe it or not, it is not up to anybody else, not even Mr. Shaw and his fellow atheists, though they of course know what is best for everybody.

Sure is interesting.   Mr. Shaw et al. whine piteously about religious figures who tell others how they ought to live and what to believe.   But they generously share their firm conviction that religious instruction is child abuse and as such should not be allowed.    And they do so in their charming more-rational-than thou manner in a way just as unyielding as any fire-and-brimstone preacher.

If Mr. Shaw is looking for intolerance, he should look in the mirror. Maybe he'd recognize something--perhaps for the first time.

Subject: RE: BS: Militant atheism has become a religion
From: Jack the Sailor
Date: 21 Apr 13 - 07:57 PM

Got this far. might as well go to 500

Subject: RE: BS: Militant atheism has become a religion
From: GUEST,Stim
Date: 21 Apr 13 - 07:41 PM

Is that a good thing, Jack?;-)

Subject: RE: BS: Militant atheism has become a religion
From: Jack the Sailor
Date: 21 Apr 13 - 06:52 PM

Only 9 more to 500

Subject: RE: BS: Militant atheism has become a religion
From: GUEST,Stim
Date: 20 Apr 13 - 09:46 PM

"my faith in my own judgement is perpetually shaky. But that doesn't seem a bad way to be. It's the human way to be." That's it, in a nutshell.

Subject: RE: BS: Militant atheism has become a religion
From: Steve Shaw
Date: 20 Apr 13 - 08:48 PM

Steve; My thought is that relying on one's own conscience and reason reflects faith in one's own judgement.

I sort of like that notion, though my faith in my own judgement is perpetually shaky. But that doesn't seem a bad way to be. It's the human way to be. People who have a bit too much faith in their own judgement, more than is healthy, have got us all into an unholy mess now and again. Best thing is to acknowledge one's imperfections and carry on. Without the crutch of a God works best for me. Your kilometrage may vary.

Subject: RE: BS: Militant atheism has become a religion
From: GUEST,Stim
Date: 20 Apr 13 - 06:05 PM

Steve; My thought is that relying on one's own conscience and reason reflects faith in one's own judgement.   Authoritarian systems, whether they are religious, political, corporate or academic, generally demand that the individual value the groupthink over their own judgement. They tend to assure it by undermining the individual's "faith-in-self".

There are those, perhaps few in number, who define "God" as that little voice inside you that asks "Why?" when everyone and everything else seems to be telling you to sit down and shut up. This is metaphorical, of course. There is probably a genetic sequence that accouns for it...

Subject: RE: BS: Militant atheism has become a religion
From: Steve Shaw
Date: 20 Apr 13 - 04:41 PM

Steve: I liked your 8:07p post a lot. Though it may sound a bit odd, I think that it is a profound act of faith to walk out of the church and close door behind you. And that faith is in your own conscience and your own ability to reason.

Thank you, but I didn't walk out as an act of faith. I walked out because I finally saw the need for evidence (I'm a simple chap, you know). My conscience (which generally serves me well enough, imperfect wretch that I am), is a free-flying affair, unattached to any faith or philosophy. Just the need to be a fine, upstanding chap who loves his friends and family, worries about all sorts of stuff and plays the harmonica to the best of his ability down the boozer of a Friday night. Of course, I usually fail abysmally on all counts, but one has to keep trying. God has yet to intervene.

Subject: RE: BS: Militant atheism has become a religion
From: Steve Shaw
Date: 20 Apr 13 - 04:33 PM

When you say that you do not think that you are especially proud do you not think that others should judge that? There are those on this forum who might take a different view.

When I say I don't think I'm especially proud, I'm hardly saying something about myself with puffed-out chest, am I? As for letting others judge, well I thought the good Lord (in one of his wisest-ever remarks) counselled us to judge not, lest...

Subject: RE: BS: Militant atheism has become a religion
From: GUEST,Stim
Date: 20 Apr 13 - 11:18 AM

Steve: I liked your 8:07p post a lot. Though it may sound a bit odd, I think that it is a profound act of faith to walk out of the church and close door behind you. And that faith is in your own conscience and your own ability to reason.

Subject: RE: BS: Militant atheism has become a religion
From: Jack the Sailor
Date: 20 Apr 13 - 05:38 AM

Musket, Musket, Musket.....

HOLD ON THAR BABA LOUIE!!!!
HOLD ON!!!

"A humanist chaplain is questioned on the basis of oxymoron. Ok. I can see an interesting debate there. But the term atheist seems to have crept in. Presumably on the basis that an assertion such as humanist is the same as a lack of assertion such as atheist on what basis? They both lack superstition?"

You don't have to presume anything Musket. You can read the bloody thread.

Go back to Bobad's latest post and you will read that there is a group of organized Atheists in Boston that includes a Humanist Chaplin. If you want to debate (bicker) with them about their definitions or with the source of the article I am sure you can find them online.

Subject: RE: BS: Militant atheism has become a religion
From: BrendanB
Date: 20 Apr 13 - 05:26 AM

You are putting words into my mouth. I did not say that I needed faith in order to examine my conscience. I implied my faith caused me re-evaluate my life in a way that I had not previously deemed necessary.
When you say that you do not think that you are especially proud do you not think that others should judge that? There are those on this forum who might take a different view.
For a while I was enjoying this exchange but you have returned to your hectoring approach to discourse which I find unappealing, so thank you and goodbye.

Subject: RE: BS: Militant atheism has become a religion
From: GUEST,Musket sans cookie
Date: 20 Apr 13 - 03:47 AM

Hang on..

A humanist chaplain is questioned on the basis of oxymoron. Ok. I can see an interesting debate there. But the term atheist seems to have crept in. Presumably on the basis that an assertion such as humanist is the same as a lack of assertion such as atheist on what basis? They both lack superstition?

The multi faith chaplaincy service at hospitals here in The UK also includes no faith. Someone to speak with, unload and receive comfort transcends belief in any flavour of faith. I've just joined a group set up to oversee certain improvement to local health care and invited someone from the chaplaincy team to join it. I somewhat doubt they feel their knowledge of either Bible or q'ran reflects their usefulness to our work. But their empathy and constant contact with patients in a non subjective or clinical decision making role is gold dust.

Subject: RE: BS: Militant atheism has become a religion
From: Jack the Sailor
Date: 20 Apr 13 - 02:18 AM

My word! You seem to know and care a lot more about it than me. All I knew before was that an evangelical friend catholic of mine when I was an atheist didn't like "secular humanists" but I had no idea that they were that organized.

Subject: RE: BS: Militant atheism has become a religion
From: MGM·Lion
Date: 20 Apr 13 - 02:14 AM

I am perfectly aware of Humanism, Stim. (I attended Peter Bellamy's memorial meeting, held at Conway Hall as it happened [not for humanistic reasons, but it is available for hire for such occasions & Jenny hired it]).

All I am saying is, the Humanists may or may not be regarded as a branch of atheism; but I am not one of them. The term 'Humanism' is in no way fully cognisant with 'atheism', as some appear, like you[?], to think; and I prefer to be an atheist tout simple, if it's all the same to you.

~M~

Nigel Spleencringe, if you are reading this, please regard it as a contradictory reply to your "I prefer Humanism" [i.e. as a designation for the non-belief position] on that other thread.

Subject: RE: BS: Militant atheism has become a religion
From: Steve Shaw
Date: 19 Apr 13 - 08:07 PM

I'm afraid I don't understand why you need faith in order to examine your conscience all the better, or, indeed, to do anything else "moral". Being a decent human being is a tough ask, yet I believe it is entirely possible, and desirable, to achieve it whilst standing on your own two feet (not on your own two knees). To admit that you need God/faith as a crutch in order for you to live a good life is just about the most abject admission of defeat I can think of. You are basically born good (as opposed to what Catholicism teaches you, you miserable, sinful wretch, born as you are already needing a "saviour"). You spring from your mother's womb a perfectly good and innocent person. Your life from then on is your fight to stay good, and it's a fight well fought if you do it on your own without phantom crutches. "I lived a good life and ended up virtuous because of my adherence to a God who never once spoke to me". Well, you have accepted the notion that you are born a wretch and can only be saved from wretchedness by your particular God. Dunno about you, but I'm a bit prouder than that, and I don't think I'm especially proud.

Subject: RE: BS: Militant atheism has become a religion
From: GUEST,Stim
Date: 19 Apr 13 - 06:27 PM

For your consideration, from the Website of the American Humanist Association, I offer: The Humanist Manifesto I am surprised that none of you, especially you, MtheGM, are familiar with the Humanists. I am told that, for a couple hundred years, the foremost British Meeting was in London, and called the South Place Ethical Society, and continue on to this day as the Conway Hall Ethical Society.

The American Humanist Association website offers this general overview of their ideas:

"Humanism is a progressive philosophy of life that, without theism and other supernatural beliefs, affirms our ability and responsibility to lead ethical lives of personal fulfillment that aspire to the greater good of humanity."

Subject: RE: BS: Militant atheism has become a religion
From: Jack the Sailor
Date: 19 Apr 13 - 12:25 PM

Steve,

Why don't you take a breath and consider that not everyone has had experiences as bad as yours.

Religion is not a crutch to most people. It may be be for some.

It is very like whisky that way.

(note that my spell checker calls "whisky" a spelling error. But I left it that way just for you. )

Subject: RE: BS: Militant atheism has become a religion
From: GUEST,BrendanB
Date: 19 Apr 13 - 12:08 PM

No, not unable to but my faith encourages an examination of conscience, the need for which I wasn't so aware of in 'the wilderness years'.

Subject: RE: BS: Militant atheism has become a religion
From: Steve Shaw
Date: 19 Apr 13 - 11:26 AM

My faith does not feel like a crutch but frequently causes me to examine my own inadequacies.

So before you got your faith back you were unable to examine your inadequacies??

Subject: RE: BS: Militant atheism has become a religion
From: Jack the Sailor
Date: 19 Apr 13 - 10:48 AM

Yes, MtheGM, quibble over they titles of your clergy and tell me it is not like a religion. Already a schism! :-) (Joke Steve, It was a joke. )

Subject: RE: BS: Militant atheism has become a religion
From: MGM·Lion
Date: 19 Apr 13 - 10:42 AM

Thanks for that link, Jack. I thought it would turn out to be, in fact, a sort of counsellor. But I can't help finding the designation "Chaplain" a bit misplaced, as there is surely no Chapel involved? However, I suppose it might give some Humanist students the feeling that their advisory needs are regarded as on the same footing as everyone else's, and thus far I can see where they are coming from.

OTOH, not all atheists want to use the get-out title "Humanist" ~~ I don't. I am not a Humanist, I am an atheist. Now, if they were to appoint someone called the "Atheist Chaplain"....?

~M~

Subject: RE: BS: Militant atheism has become a religion
From: BrendanB
Date: 19 Apr 13 - 10:11 AM

'So why did you decide you needed a crutch?'

I didn't and don't. Faith can frequently be onerous and demanding but it is part of what I am - so it goes. My faith does not feel like a crutch but frequently causes me to examine my own inadequacies.

Subject: RE: BS: Militant atheism has become a religion
From: Jack the Sailor
Date: 19 Apr 13 - 09:52 AM

google result

Subject: RE: BS: Militant atheism has become a religion
From: Jack the Sailor
Date: 19 Apr 13 - 09:49 AM

If you have read the thread you know as much as me. Atheists in Boston have a chaplain and the are miffed to be left out of the service.

Subject: RE: BS: Militant atheism has become a religion
From: MGM·Lion
Date: 19 Apr 13 - 09:16 AM

Sorry, Jack, I can find no explanation of the term, or exposition of the duties of, a Humanist Chaplain in Bobad's post. My question stands. We have registrars for weddings and funerals.

~M~

Subject: RE: BS: Militant atheism has become a religion
From: Jack the Sailor
Date: 19 Apr 13 - 09:08 AM

>>
Nobody is 'mocking' anyone, Jack. Why such an emotive [& IMO a bit paranoid] word?<<

Watch Dawkins' TED talk. and watch the mocking.



>>And whatever is a "Humanist chaplain" << Read bobad's post a few before this one. The entirety of my knowledge of "Humanist chaplain" is there. Frankly, I think it seems like a good idea for weddings and funerals at least.

Subject: RE: BS: Militant atheism has become a religion
From: Steve Shaw
Date: 19 Apr 13 - 08:56 AM

So why did you decide that you needed a crutch? And I'm never out to get anybody, believe me.

Subject: RE: BS: Militant atheism has become a religion
From: GUEST,BrendanB
Date: 19 Apr 13 - 08:37 AM

Hohoho!
As I said, I was effectively an atheist for some years. I don't think that I rediscovered my faith, I came upon a more realistic and life-affirming approach to belief which is now an essential element in my life.
Sorry Steve, you ain't gonna get me!

Subject: RE: BS: Militant atheism has become a religion
From: Steve Shaw
Date: 19 Apr 13 - 07:31 AM

That's a good post. Though I would say that you can rationalise if you really want to. Aye, there's the rub. Faith (because of the tactics of organised religions with respect to children) has a habit of becoming very difficult, if not to question, to shake off entirely. A denial of that part of the intellect that really digs deep and really asks the critical questions (and demands evidence) is the upshot. Faith is both a comfort blanket (why would you want to shake it off?) and a strangling rope. It makes you not want to ask questions (the real questions). Well, life is fine out here in the atheistic sunlit uplands. It takes just one little extra jump to get there, that's all. No pressure!

Subject: RE: BS: Militant atheism has become a religion
From: GUEST,BrendanB
Date: 19 Apr 13 - 06:05 AM

'The truth is that most aspects of religion are benign'
I said that in an earlier post and I defend it because in my experience it has proved to be the case. I also pointed out that there are religious extremists, and, by extension, those who seek to use religion for their own obnoxious ends and I abhor that as much as any atheist.
Stringsinger insists that much of religion is toxic. I would argue that it is abuse of religion which is toxic. You have read Joe's posts regarding his faith, no reasonable person could describe his approach to life as toxic. In my experience there are a lot of Joes out there.
A further point is that I cannot rationalise my faith, it just is. Steve might and Stringsinger will argue that that is the result of indoctrination but I would have to counter that in my younger days I rejected my faith for several years and, to all intents and purposes, managed very well. As time went on I found that I was developing a different kind of belief. Not the unquestioning faith of a cradle Catholic but one which has to cope with doubt and uncertainty. One which requires me to engage my intellect and make decisions; one which, I believe, enhances rather than undermines my individuality.
As Steve points out, religion brings other benefits, such as community. As a musician this has been extremely beneficial to me as I play not only in my own local Catholic church but also in local C of E churches where I feel equally part of the community.
(This also gives me the opportunity to slip in the occasional Tex Mex waltz or French mazurka - a different kind of proselytizing!)

Subject: RE: BS: Militant atheism has become a religion
From: MGM·Lion
Date: 19 Apr 13 - 05:13 AM

Nobody is 'mocking' anyone, Jack. Why such an emotive [& IMO a bit paranoid] word?

And whatever is a "Humanist chaplain" when he's at home? And what sort of organisation needs, and appoints, one? I mean, seriously ~~

What are his duties?
What does he do all day?
Who are his congregation, his 'flock'?
Does he wear his collar back-2-front?
Does he hold - what to call them, now? - meetings? services? assemblies?

I find the whole concept of such an individual, and such a post, mind-boggling.

~M~

Subject: RE: BS: Militant atheism has become a religion
From: Jack the Sailor
Date: 18 Apr 13 - 09:42 PM

No one is talking about you unless you have become a "humanist Chaplain" and not told us.

Subject: RE: BS: Militant atheism has become a religion
From: Steve Shaw
Date: 18 Apr 13 - 09:13 PM

Why would I do that?

Subject: RE: BS: Militant atheism has become a religion
From: Jack the Sailor
Date: 18 Apr 13 - 09:08 PM

Perhaps you do not grasp the concept of going to a funeral and mocking 80% of the attendees.

Subject: RE: BS: Militant atheism has become a religion
From: Steve Shaw
Date: 18 Apr 13 - 08:59 PM

I am all for including atheists in such services. As long as the homilies (or the humanist equivalent if you don't like the analogy) and eulogies do not include Dawkinisms or similar confrontational statements.

Ah, the clutcher at straws and control freak personified in two little sentences!

Subject: RE: BS: Militant atheism has become a religion
From: Jack the Sailor
Date: 18 Apr 13 - 08:40 PM

Wow bobad that is very interesting, organized atheists with a chaplain no less asking to be included like any other group in the service.

I thought that Militant atheism may be like a religion, but in Boston it seems that even the non-militant ones have a structure similar to a church.

I am all for including atheists in such services. As long as the homilies (or the humanist equivalent if you don't like the analogy) and eulogies do not include Dawkinisms or similar confrontational statements.

Subject: RE: BS: Militant atheism has become a religion
From: bobad
Date: 18 Apr 13 - 06:43 PM

Harvard atheists shocked at exclusion from Boston bombing memorial service

The Harvard Humanist Community was shocked Thursday when their members were, in the carefully-chosen words of New York Times best-selling author Greg M. Epstein, "blown off" and excluded from an inter-faith memorial ceremony for the victims of the Boston Marathon bombing.

"We have friends and family who are in the hospital in critical condition, who nearly died," he told Raw Story. "It wouldn't have been so difficult for those who organized the vigil today to make some kind of nod to us, and that's all we would have wanted."

The Harvard humanist chaplain and author of "Good Without God" explained that the exclusion of non-religious Bostonians was particularly shocking because someone dear to the Harvard Humanist Community was gravely wounded in the bombings.

Celeste Corcoran, who was caught in the blast with her daughter and subsequently lost both of her legs to amputation, was a volunteer for the Harvard Humanist Community, Epstein said. She was also something of an "aunt" to Sarah Chandonnet, the group's outreach and development manager and "second senior-most member," he added.

President Barack Obama personally addressed attendees at the service, which was held at the Cathedral of the Holy Cross in Boston. He was joined by Massachusetts Gov. Deval Patrick (D) and Boston Mayor Thomas Menino.

"We gave the White House an opportunity to exert a little more influence to help include us, and I'm disappointed that didn't happen," Epstein added. "We spoke to high ranking members of the governor's staff multiple times — people we know for a fact were involved in organizing the vigil — in fact we called them every hour on the hour. And when I say we, I don't mean me: I mean our lobbying office, the Secular Coalition for America."

"The point of today was inclusion," Epstein lamented. "All they had to do was say one word, or allow one official guest, and they didn't. I can't speak to their motivation. I hope that it was a matter of ignorance."

Subject: RE: BS: Militant atheism has become a religion
From: GUEST,BrendanB
Date: 18 Apr 13 - 03:44 PM

That post from GUEST on 16 April was me, Sorry, I did not notice that my cookie had crumbled (again).

Subject: RE: BS: Militant atheism has become a religion
From: Stringsinger
Date: 18 Apr 13 - 03:11 PM

"The truth is that most aspects of religion are benign." Guest, if this were true there would be no controversy regarding it. Many aspects of it are toxic.

Steve apparently did get his back up a little but who on this topic has been totally reasonable and even-handed? It's not a human proclivity when reactions run high.

So Mr. Shaw is not Jesus? Well whaddaya' know. :)

Steve, there is a potential community out there that can hold non-beliefs without being a church. It's a revelation to ex-church going non-believers to find out that they are not necessarily isolated from one another.

Subject: RE: BS: Militant atheism has become a religion
From: Ron Davies
Date: 18 Apr 13 - 02:36 PM

I'm shocked, just shocked, to find out that Mr. Shaw does not in fact seem to be the sweet-tempered reasonable person I always thought him to be (one who, being only interested in truth, is not about to let his ego let him get dragged into petty quarrels and knows when there is no point to continuing a discussion.)   But-- at least 13 posts after I congratulated him on his calm even-handed manner?    Looks like I was wrong.   I'll certainly know better than to do that again.


   Another idol with feet of clay. It's hard to bear.

But somehow we'll struggle through.

And, at least, hats off to him for so neatly proving the thesis of the OP.

Subject: RE: BS: Militant atheism has become a religion
From: Steve Shaw
Date: 17 Apr 13 - 09:53 PM

I'll possibly peruse what I want, thanks. I have something of a life left and I'm not going to keep "perusing" stupid threads started by sillybuggers.