BS: Militant atheism has become a religion

Subject: RE: BS: Militant atheism has become a religion
From: GUEST,Guest from Sanity
Date: 05 Apr 13 - 01:31 AM

Joe Offer: "And the pro-gun people make the same accusations, as do the anti-immigration people and......"

..and vise verse!!

GfS

Subject: RE: BS: Militant atheism has become a religion
From: Joe Offer
Date: 05 Apr 13 - 01:27 AM

Steve Shaw, you're just too ideological for me. You seem to thing the world is one big brainwashing machine, controlled by demagogues - so you want to ensure that the demagogues impose your way of thinking on the earth.

There's no doubt that the birth rate in Africa is high. My contention is that this is a cultural thing that has gone on for centuries, not a function of a 1968 declaration by the Pope in Rome. And yes, I would guess that you are right that that high birth rate may well be the doing of men. In general, it seems to me that impoverished rural societies tend to have higher birth rates. As societies become urban and gain a higher standard of education and living, the birth rate tends to go down. Rome has little or nothing to do with it.

If you can find me data to prove that it's Rome that's causing the birth rate in Africa, I might believe you. But to me, that sounds preposterous.

And your condemnation of Mother Teresa, heartfelt though it may be, sounds just as preposterous.

Both of your conspiracy theories seem to be based on an inflated view of the power of ideology, like you think Rome and Mother Teresa are brainwashing entire nations, or something. We get accusations like that all the time in the right-wing county where I live. My friend the former Jesuit put on a panel discussion of capital punishment at the local community college. He was accused of "brainwashing" college students because he didn't invite supporters of capital punishment to speak. And the pro-gun people make the same accusations, as do the anti-immigration people and those who think Social Security is Communism.

-Joe Offer-

Subject: RE: BS: Militant atheism has become a religion
From: GUEST,Guest from Sanity
Date: 04 Apr 13 - 10:12 PM

300 whoop-ti-doos!

GfS

Subject: RE: BS: Militant atheism has become a religion
From: GUEST,Guest from Sanity
Date: 04 Apr 13 - 09:56 PM

Ya' gotta forgive Steve...he's still bitter about his Catholic upbringing....so much, he's hung up on the God thing...even more so than those proselytizing Catholicism.

GfS

Subject: RE: BS: Militant atheism has become a religion
From: Steve Shaw
Date: 04 Apr 13 - 09:53 PM

I sent that once. Typed it, checked it, corrected it, copied in case it went awol - then hit send. Once. So it's here three times.

Subject: RE: BS: Militant atheism has become a religion
From: Steve Shaw
Date: 04 Apr 13 - 09:50 PM

Steve, I don't think you give those "poor African savages" the credit due them. It's not one's instruction that makes one able to think for oneself instead of blindly following a leader - it's who one is as a person. I'm quite sure that there are many nonideological people spread throughout the world, even in "darkest Africa."

I'm appalled at your characterisation, which you appear to be attaching to me here, of African women as savages. Time and time again I've stood up here for women in Africa and Latin America. I've attacked with vehemence the teachings of so-called Christians like Mother Teresa who strove to keep women in ignorance and poverty. There is nothing in the make-up of African women, any more than any women, that condemns them to their large families, constant pregnancies and high rates of sexually-transmitted disease. It is men who keep them that way. Their own traditions, their own menfolk and those men in Rome who decree that they will stay just as they are. If Africa is dark then it's us who keep it dark. If the women look like savages it's because men condemn them to look that way. And some of those men you appear to be rather quick to defend.

Subject: RE: BS: Militant atheism has become a religion
From: Steve Shaw
Date: 04 Apr 13 - 09:50 PM

Steve, I don't think you give those "poor African savages" the credit due them. It's not one's instruction that makes one able to think for oneself instead of blindly following a leader - it's who one is as a person. I'm quite sure that there are many nonideological people spread throughout the world, even in "darkest Africa."

I'm appalled at your characterisation, which you appear to be attaching to me here, of African women as savages. Time and time again I've stood up here for women in Africa and Latin America. I've attacked with vehemence the teachings of so-called Christians like Mother Teresa who strove to keep women in ignorance and poverty. There is nothing in the make-up of African women, any more than any women, that condemns them to their large families, constant pregnancies and high rates of sexually-transmitted disease. It is men who keep them that way. Their own traditions, their own menfolk and those men in Rome who decree that they will stay just as they are. If Africa is dark then it's us who keep it dark. If the women look like savages it's because men condemn them to look that way. And some of those men you appear to be rather quick to defend.

Subject: RE: BS: Militant atheism has become a religion
From: Steve Shaw
Date: 04 Apr 13 - 09:50 PM

Steve, I don't think you give those "poor African savages" the credit due them. It's not one's instruction that makes one able to think for oneself instead of blindly following a leader - it's who one is as a person. I'm quite sure that there are many nonideological people spread throughout the world, even in "darkest Africa."

I'm appalled at your characterisation, which you appear to be attaching to me here, of African women as savages. Time and time again I've stood up here for women in Africa and Latin America. I've attacked with vehemence the teachings of so-called Christians like Mother Teresa who strove to keep women in ignorance and poverty. There is nothing in the make-up of African women, any more than any women, that condemns them to their large families, constant pregnancies and high rates of sexually-transmitted disease. It is men who keep them that way. Their own traditions, their own menfolk and those men in Rome who decree that they will stay just as they are. If Africa is dark then it's us who keep it dark. If the women look like savages it's because men condemn them to look that way. And some of those men you appear to be rather quick to defend.

Subject: RE: BS: Militant atheism has become a religion
From: Ed T
Date: 04 Apr 13 - 09:44 PM

""Well, you see, Santa and the Tooth Fairy are yarns that we actively release our kids from when they get to a certain age."'

Well, possibly I was in a fortunate minority? When I look back, I fell that I was just as "released" to make my own decisions on religion, as with all the the fabled characters mentioned. Some I retain, and even passed (the experience) on to my children (Santa an the like) as they enlightened my youthful life. With religion, I ensured my children had exposure, and were free to make their own choices, which they did (my son is an athiest, my daughter a non-practicing but believing christian).

But, I look back at all these youth experiences (including religious awareness) with a smile, as I see that they did no harm to my childhood, but did add perspective and, yes, a sparkle of joy in my youthful eye:)

BTW, my intent is in not intended as "somewhat mischievous comparisons" I see them as meaningful comparisons, that have no mischevious intent at all - but could have a purpose in the discussion.

Subject: RE: BS: Militant atheism has become a religion
From: Jack the Sailor
Date: 04 Apr 13 - 09:27 PM

Yes and that is such a good point because you know so better than their parents what those kids need.

Subject: RE: BS: Militant atheism has become a religion
From: Joe Offer
Date: 04 Apr 13 - 09:25 PM

Steve, I don't think you give those "poor African savages" the credit due them. It's not one's instruction that makes one able to think for oneself instead of blindly following a leader - it's who one is as a person. I'm quite sure that there are many nonideological people spread throughout the world, even in "darkest Africa."

As for the others, even if they ARE ideological, they get to choose their ideology.

-Joe-

Subject: RE: BS: Militant atheism has become a religion
From: Steve Shaw
Date: 04 Apr 13 - 09:08 PM

Make!!!!! them?!!!

They are enrolling in Catholic schools Mr Shaw!! THEY ARE SIGNING UP FOR ALL OF THAT!!!

Well, Jack, let me make the somewhat elementary point you appear to have overlooked that the people who are doing the signing-up are the parents. The ten-year-olds (or younger) who are being enrolled are not, generally, engaged in a serious, grown-up conversation about what mummy and daddy are letting them in for. I'm so glad I could clear that up for you.

Subject: RE: BS: Militant atheism has become a religion
From: Steve Shaw
Date: 04 Apr 13 - 09:00 PM

Well, you see, Santa and the Tooth Fairy are yarns that we actively release our kids from when they get to a certain age. Let's dispel the somewhat mischievous comparison of those benign fellows with what children are told about God and Jesus. Yes, we have baby Jesus and angels and shepherds and all that lot. Along with them, parenthetically, we have the hymns and the the carols and the Gentle Jesus prayers. Are you released from these images as you grow up, as with Santa and the tooth Fairy? Why no, you are not! The very opposite,in fact! You are soon introduced to the darker concepts of sin, heaven and hell, the prayers get more assertive (and more riddled with certainties) and the whole thing suddenly becomes very grown-up. Unfortunately, the children to whom this stuff is peddled are not grown up. You can't afford to wait until then, of course, as you'll lose them if you're not careful. There's all that indoctrination by prayer, hymn, services and instruction, and those crucifixes to remind you every minute of the club you're in. Now there are enlightened fellows like Joe who debate issues with their kids and let them know they have a penalty-free choice. That is very nice. In Africa and Latin America, millions of Catholic women are suffering from having too many kids, from HIV/Aids, from poverty, from knitting-needle abortions and from gross inequality, and all because they never had a Joe Offer to let them know they had the choice to argue back and escape the shackles of the Church, penalty-free, if they wanted to. Even if they had, the iron grip of the Church would still have stayed their liberation. The real world out there might just not be that of middle-class America after all.

Subject: RE: BS: Militant atheism has become a religion
From: GUEST,Guest from Sanity
Date: 04 Apr 13 - 08:38 PM

i had to fix a couple of typos...you can remove the other one....


Guest(whoever you are because you don't sign in with a name, and you should)..I'm aware of Constantine, and the battle at Istanbul, in which he claimed to see a cross etc etc...and about his mother pushing for all the other stuff too...and i was going to put that history into my post, and you are correct...but I cut and pasted from another site, being short on time....regardless, the Roman Empire co-opted the newly spreading Christian faith..(much like the Democratic Party co-opted the 'Peace Movement' in the 60's)..Christianity had nothing to do with forming the 'First Reich'..and for that matter not really much to do with the formation of the Catholic Church, either.

That being said...which brings us to the second point, Catholic schools spit in the milk of public schools academically....NO Comparison!! If a parent wanted their kids to get a decent education and are willing to pay the tuition, let them...matter of fact, all the more power to them!
.....and that being said.....Spirituality is a gift..it does not come from how many crucifixes are on the wall, or how many chants you repeat....it doesn't come from liturgical attendances...music, as well is a gift...it doesn't come from what 'artists' you like..or what everyone around you is listening to...or what is 'hip' and the trend d'jour....it IS a gift....and truth to tell, it comes from the same place spirituality comes from...not because you picked up an instrument in your pubescent years just to get noticed or laid....and the people who excel at music are people who have a PASSION for it...people who get spiritually closer are people who have a PASSION for it...and that doesn't particularity mean making a pest of yourself about it or trying to shove it down other people's throats...it's way too personal, as is music and how it forms within.
...and of course, that being said......
'Religion', the word, just means 'way of life'...for those who miss out on being spiritual there's always a Religion(as in an organized church) that they can subscribe to. That doesn't mean that a parishioner isn't or can't be spiritual, but it also doesn't mean that their spirituality comes from being a good parishioner or 'church member'....
....that being said(again), your 'way of life'(religion) has to do more with your behavior patterns, more than what you THINK you 'Believe' or say you profess.......
..and that being said (once again) atheism is NOT a religion, or way of life...but it can be an excuse for bad behavior and resenting authority...but atheism is NOT a striven for attainment of anything...if so, what?...and if they 'battle God' or the widespread belief in God, then it would be safe to say that they are more obsessed about God, than many a church going parishioner!!!

Now instead of re-acting, just THINK about it, first...CALMLY...and you will probably come to the same conclusion....unless you're still grinding you own personal axes...that nobody sees, or even cares about.
(Must feel about the same as a 'religious' fanatic!!).

Waving.........
GfS

Subject: RE: BS: Militant atheism has become a religion
From: Ed T
Date: 04 Apr 13 - 08:32 PM

""In addition, religions talk to children about God as if he's an absolute certainty. That automatically makes religions liars.""

To put it into another perspective - for analysis purposes only- parents tell their children a number of imaginary characters are real such as Santa, the Easter Bunny, the Tooth Fairy and a multitude of other fabled characters, and talking animals in stories and cartoons. In some cases kids can even sit on their knee, to prove they are real.

I hardly expect that this scars kids for a lifetime? I expect, (and their is likely evidence to back it up), as they reach the "age of reason" these young adults realize (through sound reasoning, on their own) that these characters are not real? They then "move on" to freely make their own informed choices in life to move forward with or without these imaginary, and harmless childhood chararcters in their lives. Is it not so? If so, is there not a degree of parallel in parents choice to expose their children to religion, and related positive messages?

Subject: RE: BS: Militant atheism has become a religion
From: Joe Offer
Date: 04 Apr 13 - 07:45 PM

Steve, many Catholic schools pride themselves in teaching what they call "critical thinking" - the Jesuits take special pride in this, and have taught in this method for centuries. I think this could also be called "nonideological thinking."

I was taught from early on, by both my parents and my Catholic school teachers, to take everything with a grain of salt. I was taught that Bible stories should be studied for their meaning, for the lessons they teach - not for historical facts. Never once was I told to doubt evolution, although I was generally told that God acted and is acting through the process of evolution.

In general, I think it's safe to say that reality is, what it is. We see the same natural processes. If I see God acting through those processes and you see the same process without seeing an action of God, it's still the same process - we just have different perspectives.

I just got a call from our parish religious education director, asking me to teach this Sunday's session for the class for kids who are going to receive the Sacrament of Reconciliation (i.e., penance, confession). I asked her what I should cover, and she just said, "Do your thing, Joe." She knows I'd do "my thing" anyhow, and I think she likes to have me teach the kids because she knows I present things in a nonideological manner. So, we're going to talk about what it means to be sorry, to apologize, and to forgive. I will do my best to try to bring them to an understanding of these things as it means to them in their hearts, not in some dogma.

Now, I have to say that when I use my nonideological methods on people who are more comfortable with ideology, things don't always work out well. I've detailed in other threads how often people with a grammar school religious education have accused me of heresy, and I have a pastor who is scared to death of what I might say to people. But I think I stick pretty close to Catholic teaching - I'm just nonideological about it. I try to ensure that the people I teach have an understanding of myth, the meaning of ritual, and the thinking that should go behind making a moral decision. Some of this stuff sounds like heresy to ideological Christians, but what I teach has always been taught by nonideological Christians, back to the time of Christ and the Apostles.

So, usually at the end of every class, I'll do a review and find out what people have learned. Sometimes, it makes me want to scream. If people have an ideological mindset, they just don't get it - and then they can come up with some really weird ideas. But I keep trying.

-Joe-

Subject: RE: BS: Militant atheism has become a religion
From: Jack the Sailor
Date: 04 Apr 13 - 06:31 PM

"So are you telling me that Catholic schools don't tell children that Catholicism is the only way, the truth and the light? That there are classrooms without crucifixes? That they don't herd children off to services on holy days at the drop of a hat? Make them sing Christmas carols? Make them bow their heads in prayer? Is that what you're telling me? "

Make them?

Make! them?


Make!!!!! them?!!!

They are enrolling in Catholic schools Mr Shaw!! THEY ARE SIGNING UP FOR ALL OF THAT!!!   

What are you saying???? Are you saying that Atheist parents should lie to get their kids into a Catholic school then complain because the school is Catholic?

Subject: RE: BS: Militant atheism has become a religion
From: Joe Offer
Date: 04 Apr 13 - 06:26 PM

Well, Steve, three of my four kids went to Catholic schools, and one to a Waldorf/Steiner school. They were all exposed to Catholic teachings as children, along with indoctrination in my beliefs in tolerance and left-wing politics and a number of other things.

When they grew up, they chose their own paths. Not one of them is practicing a religious faith. I suppose I might have liked it if at least one of them were still Catholic, but that didn't happen and it's not my right to push them in any direction.

Still, I don't think they were hurt by seeing crucifixes in their classrooms. But I don't think the Catholic religion was taught to them (or to me) as rigidly as you might expect.

But hey, if I'm Catholic and I'm raising kids, why is it wrong for me to bring them up in my religious tradition? I made it clear to them that when they were of age, the choice would be up to them. They all grew up to be good, nonideological people who have been exposed to a wide spectrum of schools of thought.

-Joe-

Subject: RE: BS: Militant atheism has become a religion
From: Steve Shaw
Date: 04 Apr 13 - 06:11 PM

Steve, regarding atheists telling me what to believe - I would have been more accurate if I had said atheists telling me what NOT to believe. Can you honestly say that nowhere in any of your posts is there a form of words that could be construed as meaning one should not believe in religion?

Well I don't think anyone's talking about "believing in religion". I expect there are many people who believe in God who also hate religion. I don't care what you believe in. I've said that so many times I feel like a parrot. What I do care about is that you do not force those beliefs on children. My reason for thinking that is that it is entirely inappropriate to expect children to understand what you are telling them. In addition, religions talk to children about God as if he's an absolute certainty. That automatically makes religions liars. It's no good trying to tell me that the modern way is to "get them to think and talk about it". That is not good enough. All your hymns and prayers contain explicit certainty and you make children chant them off by heart. The Lord's Prayer is full of rock-solid certainties. Every Christian child can chant it from memory. Well, that's how they brainwashed people in those horrid communist regimes we are all so glad are now consigned to history, remember?

I also feel that your description of Catholic schools in the UK is a distortion of today's reality.

So are you telling me that Catholic schools don't tell children that Catholicism is the only way, the truth and the light? That there are classrooms without crucifixes? That they don't herd children off to services on holy days at the drop of a hat? Make them sing Christmas carols? Make them bow their heads in prayer? Is that what you're telling me?

Subject: RE: BS: Militant atheism has become a religion
From: BrendanB
Date: 04 Apr 13 - 06:05 PM

Rest easy Jack, I don't take offence very often and nothing you have said could possibly offend me.

Subject: RE: BS: Militant atheism has become a religion
From: Keith A of Hertford
Date: 04 Apr 13 - 05:57 PM

Musket, I do not remember if you ever posted about trombones.
I remembered that post because it shocked me a little.
An atheist stating that lying is OK because there is no God, so it is OK to lie to deprive a Christian child of a place at a Christian faith school and get your own kid in.

Subject: RE: BS: Militant atheism has become a religion
From: Jack the Sailor
Date: 04 Apr 13 - 05:48 PM

BTW Brendan, I think you realize that I was not defending you. Just pointing that what had been done to me was being done to you.

I am truly sorry if you took that as any hint that I thought that you could not or would not defend yourself if you thought it was necessary.

You handled it better than me. Stupid me, kept engaging him AFTER I had pointed out that he was not consistent post to post. Which you pointed out in your last post.

And obviously the doughnut comment was not my interest. I mentioned it jokingly. It was the Mudcat pedantic nitpicking which sidetracks so many conversations here that I wanted to addres. Lately I have been asking myself "does it serve the conversation?" and have refused to nitpick over little, unintentional things.

I apologize to you Don that I singled you you out. I was irritable at the time and singling you out was wrong.

Subject: RE: BS: Militant atheism has become a religion
From: Keith A of Hertford
Date: 04 Apr 13 - 05:22 PM


One problem with lying to get your kid into a faith school is that you are severely disadvantaging your kid

So why do they do it?
Answer, because the faith schools get the best results.

That is why atheists lie about being Christians.
To get their kids a place they are not entitled to, with no moral compunction about depriving Christian families of a place.

Subject: RE: BS: Militant atheism has become a religion
From: bobad
Date: 04 Apr 13 - 04:38 PM

"The best mind altering drug is truth".

Subject: RE: BS: Militant atheism has become a religion
From: Ed T
Date: 04 Apr 13 - 04:17 PM

""I usually lump organized religion, organized labor, and organized crime together. The Mafia gets points for having the best restaurants"". Dave Beard

Subject: RE: BS: Militant atheism has become a religion
From: BrendanB
Date: 04 Apr 13 - 04:07 PM

Steve, regarding atheists telling me what to believe - I would have been more accurate if I had said atheists telling me what NOT to believe. Can you honestly say that nowhere in any of your posts is there a form of words that could be construed as meaning one should not believe in religion? I also feel that your description of Catholic schools in the UK is a distortion of today's reality.
Don, I can cope with being called a doughnut, you should hear what my friends sometimes call me!
pfss .....'your pick and choose beliefs'(!). .....'nuff said!

Subject: RE: BS: Militant atheism has become a religion
From: Jack the Sailor
Date: 04 Apr 13 - 03:07 PM

Dan (olddude) says that you are a good guy so I am going to try to get to know you. I am not going to ignore you as if you were like some of the others.

Lets start with this.

>>I have the right to criticize atheism or any other kind of "ism" if it becomes dogmatic and intrudes upon my right not to believe it."<<

The der Waal excerpt I linked to at the beginning of this thread makes the point that the neo-atheists have become as dogmatic at some of the believers they condemn.

>>I disagree with the notion of Militant or New Atheists since I think this is a canard.
Atheists haven't changed at all except now they (whoever and however different they are) are more vocal.<<

"neo" means "new" Der Wall complains about neo-atheists in that article and identifies Hitchens and Dawkins as neo-atheists and points to them directly as being too dogmatic.

You seem to be both praising der Waal for his insights and directly contradicting those insights. It confuses me. Would you please clear that up?

Subject: RE: BS: Militant atheism has become a religion
From: GUEST
Date: 04 Apr 13 - 02:39 PM

The "Holy Roman Empire" came about by the Roman Empire co-opting Christianity, which had made serious inroads, and threatened the Roman Empire, which was wrought with wars, hedonism, a poly theistic religion, decadence etc etc. In the co-opting of Christianity, who, at first they persecuted fiercely, the merged the two together, while retaining the trappings of their earlier 'pagan' religion.
Hence, they created a Theocracy...where the Pope replaced Caesar as the sitting head.

You appear to be confused between the adoption of Christianity by Constantine, and its establishment as state religion by later emperors (around 360-450CE) and the (originally Frankish, later mostly Germanic) Holy Roman Empire started nominally by Charlemagne about 400 years later. Of which it has been said, was neither holy nor Roman, and scarcely an empire. The Pope was never head, even in title, of either the Roman Empire or the Holy Roman Empire.

Subject: RE: BS: Militant atheism has become a religion
From: Steve Shaw
Date: 04 Apr 13 - 02:09 PM

One problem with lying to get your kid into a faith school is that you are severely disadvantaging your kid by sending them to a school which will teach them myth as truth and which will make them bow their heads to a deity they must not question. So a very large chunk of their time will be spent in enduring anti-educational "lessons", chanting "prayers" and going to services. If it's a Catholic school they will spend every lesson under the sightless gaze of a sparsely-dressed brutalised dead man hanging on a cross on the wall in front of them. Another problem is that you will depriving a perfectly good state school and its pupils of your child's talents. When enough people do that, and they do, the system is thrown into imbalance. I'm scratching my head here wondering whether anyone who approves of this kind of discrimination can really be called "Christian".

Subject: RE: BS: Militant atheism has become a religion
From: Lighter
Date: 04 Apr 13 - 12:52 PM

Long ago I posted my favorite bumper sticker, from around 2007:

"Don't Believe Everything You Think."

Subject: RE: BS: Militant atheism has become a religion
From: GUEST,Musket sans cookie
Date: 04 Apr 13 - 12:07 PM

Keith. Have I ever spouted a view on trombones?

Just wondered.

Subject: RE: BS: Militant atheism has become a religion
From: Stringsinger
Date: 04 Apr 13 - 11:53 AM

We have to ask the question, why has militant Christianity, Judaism, Islam, or any other
militant religion become a religion and then maybe some answers that are valuable might emerge.

I have the right to criticize atheism or any other kind of "ism" if it becomes dogmatic and intrudes upon my right not to believe it.

I am beginning to think that these discussions are proving fruitless because of all the name calling and vituperation they cause. Still, it's a worthy subject and new insights into it
might ameliorate the emotional outbursts here.

I disagree with the notion of Militant or New Atheists since I think this is a canard.
Atheists haven't changed at all except now they (whoever and however different they are) are more vocal.

Of course religionists have done their share of vocalizing and proselytising disproportionately to non-believers. When they claim victimhood, while being the loudest in the majority, it's a great big joke.

I think we need a new set of bumper stickers. "Believe what you want but don't spill it on me", or "You have the inalienable right to be stupid" or "I have faith that faith doesn't exist" or "Jesus who?" or "Islamophobia, homophobia or atheophopia? What's the difference?"

I am tending more toward Frans de Waal's "Apathysist" to climb from under all the brickbats being thrown.

Subject: RE: BS: Militant atheism has become a religion
From: Keith A of Hertford
Date: 04 Apr 13 - 10:15 AM

Sorry, that should have been in quotes.
It was what Musket posted about his friend and himself.

"Either the word faith is an active word or religious belief has bugger all to do with it. A friend of mine who isn't superstitious had to pretend to be a believer in Christian superstition in order to get his kids into the local performing school. No matter I suppose, and I would do the same. Yeah yeah, course I'm a God botherer and I believe in all that stuff. Now educate my children please.

I'd lie, same as he did. It doesn't matter because there is no hell they can send you to, and lying to delusion pedlars isn't a crime, it's playing their absurd game with them. "

Subject: RE: BS: Militant atheism has become a religion
From: Keith A of Hertford
Date: 04 Apr 13 - 10:13 AM

Steve.
The people who are so desperate to get their kids into "faith schools" are exactly the people who were indoctrinated that way themselves. Those, and, of course, the people who see faith schools as somehow giving their kids a social advantage.

Like Musket's friend. (11th April 2012)

Either the word faith is an active word or religious belief has bugger all to do with it. A friend of mine who isn't superstitious had to pretend to be a believer in Christian superstition in order to get his kids into the local performing school. No matter I suppose, and I would do the same. Yeah yeah, course I'm a God botherer and I believe in all that stuff. Now educate my children please.

I'd lie, same as he did. It doesn't matter because there is no hell they can send you to, and lying to delusion pedlars isn't a crime, it's playing their absurd game with them.

Subject: RE: BS: Militant atheism has become a religion
From: Stu
Date: 04 Apr 13 - 10:02 AM

"Yet in UK, Christian faith schools are massively over-subscribed and people lie about their beliefs (or lack of) to get their kids the benefit."

That's not because there's some drift towards religion by the child-bearing populace, but because faith schools are considered superior to state schools. They may be so, but that's got sod all to do with divine influence and more to do with the fact faith schools discriminate against poorer or less able pupils (see data here).

Faith schools are divisive and retrogressive; they don't encourage integration, tolerance or allow their pupils to mix with people whose views might not be their own. This is not good for the pupils or greater society.

Subject: RE: BS: Militant atheism has become a religion
From: GUEST,pete from seven stars link
Date: 04 Apr 13 - 09:06 AM

brendan- please be assured that i was not,and am not now irritated by your pick and choose beliefs.i trust that my believing the bible does not irritate you either.

Subject: RE: BS: Militant atheism has become a religion
From: GUEST,Guest from Sanity
Date: 04 Apr 13 - 02:03 AM

John in Kansas: "It differed in only ONE condition considered "significant" (largely in retrospect) in that it did not prohibit a "State Religion."
The first international treaty made by the new Government ca. 1938 was a treaty with Rome, and declaration of ROMAN CATHOLICISM as the official state religion."

Take a bow, John, you hit a BIG bingo!!

Three major German Reichs (empires) that have existed. These were, respectively:

1. The Holy Roman Empire of the German Nation, which lasted from the coronation of Otto I as a Holy Roman Emperor in 962 to 1806, when it was dissolved during the Napoleonic Wars;

2. The German Empire, which lasted from the unification of Germany in 1871 to its collapse after World War I, during the German Revolution of 1918–1919;

3. The National Socialist state commonly known as the Third Reich or Nazi Germany, which lasted from the Machtergreifung in 1933 to the End of World War II in Europe in 1945.


The "Holy Roman Empire" came about by the Roman Empire co-opting Christianity, which had made serious inroads, and threatened the Roman Empire, which was wrought with wars, hedonism, a poly theistic religion, decadence etc etc. In the co-opting of Christianity, who, at first they persecuted fiercely, the merged the two together, while retaining the trappings of their earlier 'pagan' religion.
Hence, they created a Theocracy...where the Pope replaced Caesar as the sitting head.
By the way, as this pushed eastward the 'king' of Russia was referred to as 'Czar'....an adaptation of 'Caesar'.

For what it's worth.

GfS

Subject: RE: BS: Militant atheism has become a religion
From: JohnInKansas
Date: 03 Apr 13 - 07:29 PM

When WWI ended, a multiplicity of other nations wrote a new Constitution for Germany, commonly called the "Weimar Constitution."

For some time, Germany followed the Weimar Constitution, which was considered "a very good Constitution."

It was, in fact, so good that most constitutional scholars considered it almost identical in effect, to the US Constitution.

It differed in only ONE condition considered "significant" (largely in retrospect) in that it did not prohibit a "State Religion."

The first international treaty made by the new Government ca. 1938 was a treaty with Rome, and declaration of ROMAN CATHOLICISM as the official state religion.

Despite the good intentions of some persons of good intent, religious or others, some rather unfortunate results followed soon after, since no religion imposed by government can avoid the appearance of "permission to hate" anyone who deviates from the official line.

Several other actions by the new government followed, that are generally considered to have contributed to the "German difficulties" although some disagree that they were all bad ideas. The Bush II administration appears to have attempted to followed several of the German concepts in nearly their same form (and in almost identical order) like rigging the highest courts, propagandising hatred of "undesirablees," promotion of religiosities, and the like; but here the results thus far came out a little better than for the Germans.

Since most religions, along with the non-religious, here recognize that a government dictated belief system is undesirable, atheists have no reason to be excluded from resisting imposition of religious law just as must be done by the majority of religious believers when fanatic radicals attempt to impose their own religion on everyone else, and there is no reason to call atheists "militant" if they object along with those persons of faith with whom they're willing to take a stand.

BUT:

First Amendment doesn't apply here: N.C. lawmakers push bill for state religion

There's always another nutcase who can get a few votes by pandering to the fanatics who ARE MILITANT.

John

Subject: RE: BS: Militant atheism has become a religion
From: Steve Shaw
Date: 03 Apr 13 - 07:25 PM

Well, Jacko, we can either respond sensibly to posts or we can shut up. In no way was my post an attack on the poster. The fellow made a ludicrous assertion by any measure and I put him right. That is not an attack. That is what discussion forums are supposed to be about. Now I've noticed of late this new tendency of yours to leap to the defence of people who (a) haven't even had a chance to defend themselves yet, or (b) might not want your help. I could conclude that there's a little touch of paranoia there. Hold back and let people respond. Or don't listen unto me and continue your unstoppable crusade to make a complete arse of yourself. You have a choice.

Subject: RE: BS: Militant atheism has become a religion
From: Steve Shaw
Date: 03 Apr 13 - 07:15 PM

So much so that organised religion does not believe in education.

Yet in UK, Christian faith schools are massively over-subscribed

Thanks for making my point. The people who are so desperate to get their kids into "faith schools" are exactly the people who were indoctrinated that way themselves. Those, and, of course, the people who see faith schools as somehow giving their kids a social advantage. It is, of course, well known that the latter faction can easily buy faith schools off. And don't even think of contradicting me. I worked in faith schools in the East End for years and I saw all the tricks and all the quiet acquiescence. And I was a Catholic at the time!

Subject: RE: BS: Militant atheism has become a religion
From: Jack the Sailor
Date: 03 Apr 13 - 06:21 PM

"Several things. Atheists do not tell people "what to believe". Believing is a trait that is not within the pantheon of atheism (we do continually try to tell you this, you know). As for seeking to tell people, well now there's a pot calling a kettle black if ever I heard one. 'Tis organised religion that is the expert in telling people what to believe. So much so that organised religion does not believe in education."

Don T, I think I may have found the source of your accusation that I was dissing all atheists.

Brendan spoke for himself and about his own experiences with "atheists and "theists" he has encountered. Mr. Shaw attacks him and all of religion for attacking all of atheism. I think that Brendan will be wise enough not to rise to the bait where I was not. It looked like I was attacking all atheists when I was merely trying to counter a baseless argument.

Subject: RE: BS: Militant atheism has become a religion
From: Keith A of Hertford
Date: 03 Apr 13 - 05:35 PM

. So much so that organised religion does not believe in education.

Yet in UK, Christian faith schools are massively over-subscribed and people lie about their beliefs (or lack of) to get their kids the benefit.

Subject: RE: BS: Militant atheism has become a religion
From: Jack the Sailor
Date: 03 Apr 13 - 04:19 PM

Don(Wyziwyg)T
"Where did that come from Brendan, you doughnut."

Don,

You have just criticized a calm, reasoned intelligent post by Brendan by nitpicking over a definition and called him a name.

The semantic nitpicking is an old Mudcat tradition. I've done it myself many times. Does it serve the conversation?

Subject: RE: BS: Militant atheism has become a religion
From: Jack the Sailor
Date: 03 Apr 13 - 04:09 PM

>>>"I forgive you Jim."
A convenient - is somewhat arrogant back-door for you and your buddies away from dealing with the real issues which you have studiously avoided.
You may have meant it as a joke, but it's an attitude I've encountered throughout my life.<<<

It was my impression that you had talked condescendingly to me and attacked my beliefs. I am sorry if I was mistaken about that. Jesus told us to ask the Lord to forgive us our sins as we forgive those who sin against us. (I am paraphrasing). I don't want to bicker with you. I forgave you for my benefit. To let go my anger and defuse the situation from my side. I am sorry if it offend you. Hopefully it did not give offense as responding in kind would have.

Subject: RE: BS: Militant atheism has become a religion
From: Steve Shaw
Date: 03 Apr 13 - 03:54 PM

I, in my turn, despise the mindset of atheists and theists who seek to tell others what to believe.

Several things. Atheists do not tell people "what to believe". Believing is a trait that is not within the pantheon of atheism (we do continually try to tell you this, you know). As for seeking to tell people, well now there's a pot calling a kettle black if ever I heard one. 'Tis organised religion that is the expert in telling people what to believe. So much so that organised religion does not believe in education. That would be far too dangerous. Questioning and critical appraisal of evidence, the mainstays of real education, is to be severely discouraged. Organised religion starts telling you, right from the cradle, right through your developing years (when you can't be expected to understand), what you must believe, under pain of excommunication/ostracism/fatwa/honour killing/hellfire. All atheists do, apart from quietly getting on with their lives, is to declare that they require evidence for anything they are told by authority. And that, as far as the alleged existence of God is concerned, that evidence is severely wanting. End of!

Subject: RE: BS: Militant atheism has become a religion
From: Ed T
Date: 03 Apr 13 - 03:34 PM

That was odd, LH.
You may be paying too much attention to verses from the "Chongo Chronicles."


:)

Subject: RE: BS: Militant atheism has become a religion
From: Don(Wyziwyg)T
Date: 03 Apr 13 - 02:54 PM

Lighten up LH! Not every poster takes himself that seriously.

Don T.

Subject: RE: BS: Militant atheism has become a religion
From: Don(Wyziwyg)T
Date: 03 Apr 13 - 02:51 PM

As for church and state, I could not agree more!

God has no place in politics, even though (maybe even because) he is incorruptible.

And please don't be offended by that "Doughnut". It was most fondly used.

Don T.

Subject: RE: BS: Militant atheism has become a religion
From: Little Hawk
Date: 03 Apr 13 - 02:20 PM

Everyone has their own personal religion. Just watch them. You can eventually determine the nature of their religion by the following:

1. What do they habitually attack?

2. What do they habitually defend?

3. And how do they behave toward other people?

Their religion always has a God too....but quite often that God is nothing other than themselves. Their God of Self speaks every time they open their mouths, and they see Him/Her whenever they look in the mirror. Their loyalty to this one God of Self is absolute (although they can get angry or depressed when He or She messes up)! They will have NO other Gods before Him or Her! Specially not the Gods of organized religions. Almost everything in commercial society encourages the development of this One Personal God...and all the fear that goes with it...because that helps sell product! $$$$

Be nice to your Personal God today. Go buy some more stuff at the mall and "pamper" yourself. You deserve it, because you are Number One.

Subject: RE: BS: Militant atheism has become a religion
From: Don(Wyziwyg)T
Date: 03 Apr 13 - 02:06 PM

""I am aware that there are those, atheists and theists, who despise people like me for electing to believe without requiring evidence""

Where did that come from Brendan, you doughnut.

Theists too believe without evidence, just not in men with black frocks, dog collars, or turbans.

But we certainly don't want, expect, or ask anyone to join our ranks. We're far too busy fending off Evangelists, Jehovah Witnesses, Children of Mary and the Salvation Army, all busy trying to convert us.

Ninety percent of the atheists I know are similarly indifferent to your choices.

Get this firmly fixed in your skull! You only impinge on our consciousness when you try to push your ideas on us.

Leave us alone and we won't even know you exist.

Don T.