5yr old shoots 2yr old

Subject: RE: 5yr old shoots 2yr old
From: Peter K (Fionn)
Date: 03 May 13 - 06:30 PM

Why such a fuss, in a country where people shooting each other is a normal part of life and death?

Take this response: "And I want to shoot the fuckwit Coroner in the balls with a .357 Colt Python. I used to have one and it was a big revolver for a big boy and I was used to shooting the big gun. That would be just another of those crazy accidents too."

Admirably macho, Catspaw.

I'm with Greg. The victim had his parents' genes, so better for the species that her genes were taken out of the pool. Shoot away, folks, with my blessing, but try to keep it in the family.

Subject: RE: 5yr old shoots 2yr old
From: catspaw49
Date: 03 May 13 - 07:14 PM

Missed the point Fionn......First, I no longer own any guns although in my 20's I did enjoy shooting sports. Second, that was a simple play off the words of the Coroner....."little boy liked to shoot the little gun........crazy accident."

Don't read anything else into it 'cause it ain't there.........


Spaw

Subject: RE: 5yr old shoots 2yr old
From: GUEST,Futwick
Date: 03 May 13 - 10:54 PM

Right. Let's smirk at the victim--a 2-yo girl--that's what she gets for being born of two idiots.

I think we can see why Mudcat is in the shitter where it fucking belongs. What a fucking shithole of forum.

Subject: RE: 5yr old shoots 2yr old
From: Joe Offer
Date: 03 May 13 - 10:57 PM

Nobody smirks at the victim, Futwick. That's ridiculous.


I think that in general, you cannot effectively criminalize something that is supported by a sizable minority. To attempt to do so, is to invite chaos. I think that the United States can enact some gun controls that will be supported by the vast majority of citizens, but this must be done carefully because the NRA opposition is powerful and dangerous.

Sure, I'd like a total ban on firearms - but I don't think that this is something that would work in the U.S. The reaction would be the same as the reaction to Prohibition, and maybe far worse than that.

-Joe-

Subject: RE: 5yr old shoots 2yr old
From: GUEST
Date: 04 May 13 - 11:45 AM

"Nobody smirks at the victim, Futwick. That's ridiculous."

Is that right? I would call the verbatim statements below smirking or pretty damn close to it.

"Look on the bright side - this is natural selection in operation. Perhaps it will improve the species."

"I'm with Greg. The victim had his parents' genes, so better for the species that her genes were taken out of the pool. Shoot away, folks, with my blessing, but try to keep it in the family."

Subject: RE: 5yr old shoots 2yr old
From: Jim Carroll
Date: 04 May 13 - 01:24 PM

"Think carefully here - everything you just said can also apply to a hammer (or a pair of sharp pointed sewing scissors."
Utter nonsense - the purpose of a gun is to kill something or someone - nothing else.
For us who have no god-given or whatever right to own a gun it is just further confirmation that the US is one extremely sick and naused-up society.
Jim Carroll

Subject: RE: 5yr old shoots 2yr old
From: GUEST,Eliza
Date: 04 May 13 - 05:01 PM

Young children up to the age of eight or so have to be protected from any sort of risk/danger around the home. Sensible parents make sure that sharp tools, dangerous chemicals such as bleach etc, even window- blind cords in a loop, garden ponds and pools, plastic bags, open fires are inaccessible and safely locked away or guarded. Most parents assess their home automatically for dangers and keep their children safe. What they don't do ( well, not here in UK anyway) is hand over to a small child a working firearm, explain how to use it and leave it lying around charged with ammunition. It's preposterous and almost incredible that any parent would even consider such a lunatic thing. I'm so sorry the little girl was shot and killed, but really, they were just asking for a terrible tragedy to happen. I only hope they can forgive themselves in time, and come to terms with the loss of a little innocent tot. Very, very sad.

Subject: RE: 5yr old shoots 2yr old
From: dick greenhaus
Date: 04 May 13 - 05:46 PM

It's very hard for the irrensponsible to teach responsibility.

Subject: RE: 5yr old shoots 2yr old
From: GUEST,Killer Gene
Date: 04 May 13 - 06:03 PM

Maybe the reason Americans are so intent on murdering each other is that a high percentage of them are either Irish, who, historically, seem prone to kill each other, or English, who, historically, seem prone to kill everyone

Subject: RE: 5yr old shoots 2yr old
From: Peter K (Fionn)
Date: 04 May 13 - 06:35 PM

Well ok, Spaw, but I wasn't alluding to anything that wasn't there. I guess what seems so extraordinary, not only here in the UK but also in various other countries I have travelled around in, is the detailed - almost obsessive - knowledge that perfectly normal people in the US have from a young age about firearms, and love to parade.

There cannot be a civilised country in the world that comes close to the US in this respect. But I take Joe's point: there's no answer.

Subject: RE: 5yr old shoots 2yr old
From: Don(Wyziwyg)T
Date: 04 May 13 - 07:41 PM

""Maybe the reason Americans are so intent on murdering each other is that a high percentage of them are either Irish, who, historically, seem prone to kill each other, or English, who, historically, seem prone to kill everyone""

Oh very helpful, considering that the whole nineteenth century in the USA was punctuated by the sound of private citizens filling each other with lead.

Come to think of it, maybe the quantity of lead in the air during that time has some bearing on the mental state of those who value guns above their children and their fellow man.

Don T.

Subject: RE: 5yr old shoots 2yr old
From: Joe Offer
Date: 04 May 13 - 07:52 PM

I think it might be easy for Europeans and others to get the feeling that guns are everywhere in the U.S. They really aren't. I think I may see a civilian with a gun once every couple of years, maybe less often. I do hear gunshots out here in the country every week or two, and I imagine it's a neighbor doing target practice. There is one neighbor whose target range lines up with a trail we hike frequently, and that's a cause for concern. If we hear gunshots when we're there, we yell really loud - that's happened three or four times in the ten years I've been here. But I never saw the people, and never saw the guns - I just heard 'em.

But here in a county that has a very strong pro-gun culture, I rarely see guns.

-Joe-

Subject: RE: 5yr old shoots 2yr old
From: catspaw49
Date: 04 May 13 - 09:17 PM

While gun sales are up, fewer new people are entering the gun market and the actual number of gun owners is 34% (legal ages). Where there used to be a gun addict with 8 or 10 guns, they now have sometimes doubled or tripled there number owned.


Spaw

Subject: RE: 5yr old shoots 2yr old
From: GUEST,Stim
Date: 05 May 13 - 12:14 AM

With due respect, most of the Irish Immigration to the US took place in the 19th Century, given that, most of the shooting that was done during the 19th century was related to military actions of one sort or another--the Civil War, and a rather nasty British Invasion being two noteworthy examples.

Subject: RE: 5yr old shoots 2yr old
From: GUEST,Eliza
Date: 05 May 13 - 03:08 AM

Well no doubt during the Stone Age we ALL went around bashing people over the head with clubs and transfixing them with spears etc. The point is not what has happened in history but the state of affairs now. And 34 per cent of a population owning a gun is astonishing, not reassuring. If it pertained here, it would mean that one in every three of my neighbours in my village would be a gun owner. Unimaginable!

Subject: RE: 5yr old shoots 2yr old
From: Richard Bridge
Date: 05 May 13 - 04:06 AM

British invasion my arse. Attempt to reduce an illegal revolution.

Subject: RE: 5yr old shoots 2yr old
From: Jim Carroll
Date: 05 May 13 - 04:14 AM

" USA was punctuated by the sound of private citizens filling each other with lead."
Not to mention slaughtering the indigenous population
Jim Carroll

Subject: RE: 5yr old shoots 2yr old
From: Greg F.
Date: 05 May 13 - 09:40 AM

I think I may see a civilian with a gun once every couple of years, maybe less often.

Guess you're not in Texas, Idaho, or Alabama, eh Joe?

Subject: RE: 5yr old shoots 2yr old
From: Jim Carroll
Date: 05 May 13 - 10:48 AM

"Attempt to reduce an illegal revolution."
Aren't all revolutions, by their very nature "illegal" Richard?
Jim Carroll

Subject: RE: 5yr old shoots 2yr old
From: dick greenhaus
Date: 05 May 13 - 01:37 PM

Maybe if the parents were charged with manslaughter? Or even criminal neglect?

Subject: RE: 5yr old shoots 2yr old
From: Greg F.
Date: 05 May 13 - 04:29 PM

Dick, its way past time that stupidity was criminalized.

Subject: RE: 5yr old shoots 2yr old
From: Don(Wyziwyg)T
Date: 05 May 13 - 05:32 PM

""Pistols, Rifles and Shotguns and Miscellaneous Firearms (whatever that means).

6,541,886 manufactured in 2011
3,250,000 bought in from abroad
9,791,886 TOTAL (in addition to those already in existence)

All told, the firearms industry contributes more than $33 billion to the U.S. economy and supports about 220,000 jobs, according to the National Shooting Sports Foundation. That's more than double the North American payrolls of General Motors.""

There are 88.8 guns per 100 people, and they are still making more.

I realise that this doesn't mean that 89 out of every 100 USAians have a gun.

Obviously some have multiple guns and others constitute small pockets of sanity (much too small and many too few).

Don T.

Subject: RE: 5yr old shoots 2yr old
From: GUEST,Stim
Date: 05 May 13 - 09:39 PM

The War of 1812, Richard.

Subject: RE: 5yr old shoots 2yr old
From: GUEST,Futwick
Date: 05 May 13 - 10:04 PM

In 2010, over 8.5 million new guns were put on the streets. So, in 2010 and 2011 combined, we're talking over 18 million new guns were put on the streets of America.

But somehow, Obama is taking everyone's guns away and trashing the 2nd Amendment in spite of Congress trashing his gun control agenda. What an amazing man!

Subject: RE: 5yr old shoots 2yr old
From: Suzy Sock Puppet
Date: 06 May 13 - 03:18 PM

"Now we'll have the NRA saying that if the two year old had a gun she'd be alive today."

I think you nailed it there Don. Wayne LaPierre needs to go. His spiel is doing more harm than good to gun owners and non-gun owners alike.

Guns would have aided in that situation in Boston? Really? I'm sorry Wayne, but that's crazy talk.

I am not a gun owner. They never interested me. Never held one. Just the same, I am inclined to respect both camps. But I would make a bold distinction between responsible and irresponsible gun ownership.

If I were the DA, I would have charged the parents with endangering the welfare of a child. In a jury of their peers, they might be acquitted, just the same, I'd make them as uncomfortable as possible. I would put parents on notice that I expect them to be responsible for what happens with firearms in the hands of their children when they are the ones providing access.

And you're right Jim. Revolutions are, by their very nature "illegal." Revolutionaries are terrorists, insurgents, radicals, criminals and every other damned thing- unless they win.

Subject: RE: 5yr old shoots 2yr old
From: GUEST,Eliza
Date: 06 May 13 - 06:09 PM

I do feel that the Coroner's assessment of the tragedy being 'just one of those crazy accidents' was startlingly dismissive and inappropriate. You'd think the little boy had merely broken a window rather than shot his small sister dead. The parents were undeniably negligent and irresponsible. I imagine their punishment will be to have to live with the memory of the little girl's death for the rest of their lives. But marketing guns especially for children, with attractive designs meant to appeal to the very young, is weird and indefensible. There should immediately be passed a law preventing this. Guns are not a good idea for civilian adults. They are definitely NOT for the hands of children.

Subject: RE: 5yr old shoots 2yr old
From: Greg F.
Date: 06 May 13 - 06:41 PM

the Coroner's assessment of the tragedy... was startlingly dismissive and inappropriate

More evidence of the need to criminalize stupidity.

Subject: RE: 5yr old shoots 2yr old
From: GUEST,SPB at work
Date: 07 May 13 - 09:15 AM

Well those are the liberties you hold dear as a nation, so wouldn't a few kids getting their brains blown out be a price worth paying?? it definitely would NOT be here.

"Guns would have aided in that situation in Boston? " - well it might have saved three lives if every student who carries a backpack is taken out - just in case. Why stop there, do you really know what a pensioner has in her shopping trolley?

Subject: RE: 5yr old shoots 2yr old
From: Bettynh
Date: 07 May 13 - 11:23 AM

For the record and then I'm done with this thread:

"Why such a fuss, in a country where people shooting each other is a normal part of life and death?" People don't normally shoot each other here. Guns are most often used as tools for hunting or target sports. I believe people who carry guns for "self-protection" or stockpile them for the coming Armageddon are a minority of gun owners (although they may own the majority of guns).

I do not believe "that the whole nineteenth century in the USA was punctuated by the sound of private citizens filling each other with lead."

I do not believe "during the Stone Age we ALL went around bashing people over the head with clubs and transfixing them with spears etc."

"Americans are so intent on murdering each other..." Nope, don't believe that.

"Well those are the liberties you hold dear as a nation, so wouldn't a few kids getting their brains blown out be a price worth paying??" Nobody said that.

And I don't believe, "Young children up to the age of eight or so have to be protected from any sort of risk/danger around the home." If I had waited until they were eight, my boys would have been in real danger. They needed to be engaged in modifying their own behavior waaaay before that.

As for, "Guns would have aided in that situation in Boston?" There were plenty of guns there - they didn't help at all.

I don't believe that I live in "a country where people shooting each other is a normal part of life and death"

It saddens me no end that so many people have such a warped view of American life and are so smug and gleeful in expressing their disdain.

Subject: RE: 5yr old shoots 2yr old
From: Richard Bridge
Date: 07 May 13 - 12:49 PM

1812 - UK attempts to reduce illegal invasions of British territory, and illegal slaughter of indigenous populations by an illegal revolutionary government (now called the USA).

1922 Jim - an illegal revolution by people lawfully ruled by England since the early 1600s.


They ceased to be illegal when England in both cases surrendered - but not until.

Subject: RE: 5yr old shoots 2yr old
From: Richard Bridge
Date: 07 May 13 - 12:55 PM

But to return to the topic - this death is as much due to the unbelievable laxity of the US legal system as to stupidity.

If there had been no gun (as would have been the case in England) there would have been no death. If, as would have been the case in the very rare cases in the UK where rifles are lawfully kept in the home, they would have been in a locked gun cabinet securely fixed to the structure of the dwelling.

Has anyone got real US statistics for the proportion of food that is procured by hunting compared to that which is not (and that which is wasted)? I am in little doubt that there is no rational case to defend hunting for food. Hunting for sport is morally repugnant, like all other deliberate infliction of suffering.

We know where the "right to bear arms" for "self defence" and to "stand one's ground" leads. Trayvon. There is no rational case for the US love of hot lead.

Subject: RE: 5yr old shoots 2yr old
From: Backwoodsman
Date: 07 May 13 - 01:45 PM

Bloody hell! I'm in total agreement with everything Richard said!
Now I'm worried! :-)

Subject: RE: 5yr old shoots 2yr old
From: GUEST,Futwick
Date: 07 May 13 - 05:02 PM

Whether anyone finds hunting morally repugnant is frankly laughable. So what? There MUST be deer-hunting in Michigan--period. Is deer meat consumed by deer hunters? You bet it is. I get several pounds of venison every year from friends and coworkers who hunt. There are places that process deer meat--take your kill to them and they will turn it into steak, sausage and you name it. And it's good! Bothers you? Tough shit. From a Government of Michigan website:

In the late 1980s, the Department of Natural Resources reaffirmed its goal of 1.3 million deer in the fall herd (which was biologically the same as the 1971 goal of 1 million deer in the spring herd) and continues to work toward that goal. Unfortunately, the large deer herd has begun to have a significant impact on their own habitat and the habitats of other animals. In some areas, they have nearly eliminated certain plants, which may provide food and or shelter for other wildlife.

The build-up of deer in urban and suburban areas has also become a challenge. Other than fencing, nonlethal control methods have usually been unsuccessful or impractical, and lethal controls have eventually been applied. Management of deer in urban and suburban settings will provide many future opportunities for public education and involvement.

Subject: RE: 5yr old shoots 2yr old
From: Don(Wyziwyg)T
Date: 07 May 13 - 06:34 PM

""I do not believe "that the whole nineteenth century in the USA was punctuated by the sound of private citizens filling each other with lead.""

Which would seem to clash with the stories of range wars, the guerilla activities of Quantrell and "Bloody Bill" Anderson and the need for town tamers such as Hickock, the Earps, Bat Masterson etc. etc, not to mention the "Indian Wars" and the Civil War.

Even allowing that their stories were somewhat exaggerated, the Colt .45 calibre that most of them used was actually named "Peacemaker", which suggests that Boot Hill may have been the most, and in some cases the only, peaceful place in the nineteenth century USA.

It gives me no pleasure at all to point out to people I would classify as friends that the path they are on leads to more, not less, killing of innocents, and I am very far from feeling smug and gleeful when I do so.

I look at their situation from a place which once had the same problems, but where I can now walk the streets at night in safety and often do, and I feel a deep and abiding sadness that they cannot (apparently) see beyond the outdated and outmoded comments of men who could not have foreseen the changes to come, nor the effect of what they chose to enshrine in a document, upon a totally different society 237 years later.

Genuine heartfelt sadness for the innocent victims and the families condemned to mourn their lost ones till the day they die.

Don T.

Subject: RE: 5yr old shoots 2yr old
From: Richard Bridge
Date: 07 May 13 - 07:00 PM

Futwick - letting a bunch of idiots loose with lethal weapons is not a clever answer to deer overpopulation. An ORGANISED cull might be. On the other hand I suppose a mirror argument could be made about dangerous bipeds.

Subject: RE: 5yr old shoots 2yr old
From: GUEST,Futwick
Date: 07 May 13 - 08:03 PM

Richard, deer-hunting season IS an organized cull. The DNR counts the deer and decide how many can be harvested in a season and a meticulous count is kept. Usually, only bucks of a certain age may be taken although I think there may be an occasional doe season but it's certainly not normally allowed. There's also a bow season during which guns are absolutely prohibited. Bow hunters generally don't take many deer, though. You have to have a gun season to cull the population. Deer hunters are overwhelmingly cooperative in what they take. Killing a doe or fawn or taking deer out of season is strongly prohibited and those who get caught doing it never do it again. Other hunters will turn you in if they see you doing it. Deer hunters are generally not a bunch of idiots as they come from all walks of life--factory-workers, office-workers, lawyers, bankers, craftsmen, even housewives. White-tailed deer is BY FAR the biggest game animal in Michigan and populations are found in ALL counties in Michigan and I mean literally ALL.

If deer-hunting was banned, the DNR would have to kill thousands of deer from helicopters and leave the carcasses to rot. It just isn't practical. Deer-hunting is very well organized and is the ONLY effective measure of holding the deer population to a sustainable level. It is a passion here and it is a necessity.

Subject: RE: 5yr old shoots 2yr old
From: SPB-Cooperator
Date: 08 May 13 - 03:10 AM

Not smugness and glee, but total disgust.

Disgust with a nation that has laws that allow young children to own an object for which the sole purpose of its design is to kill.

Disgust with a nation that in spite of shooting tragedies being a regular occurence still insists in voting for politicians who block any attempt to control access to firearms.

Disgust with a nation that proactively promotes firearm ownership and is not able to make the connection that the easier it is to buy firearms, the easier it is for murderers to buy firearms.

Disgust with a nation that remains collectively defensive every time there is a new tragedy instead of hanging its head in shame.

Subject: RE: 5yr old shoots 2yr old
From: Backwoodsman
Date: 08 May 13 - 04:07 AM

Amen.

Subject: RE: 5yr old shoots 2yr old
From: GUEST,Eliza
Date: 08 May 13 - 04:15 AM

Deer-culling IS practised here in UK, and is more than ever necessary as the deer population has increased enough to be causing problems. But the culling is done by licensed people, who have to register like anyone else an Application to own a firearm, and be approved after a Police check. There are restrictions on when and how they cull, and they take specifically-chosen animals. We don't just allow the general public to whizz off into the countryside bristling with massive automatic weapons and let fly at anything that moves, hitching the carcasses to their bumpers. Private shoots ( for game of many sorts) are organised on a person's land, again under strict control. There are also gun clubs and firing ranges for sport, all tightly controlled. So we aren't paranoid about guns, we're just sensible and careful, with the Police involved in approval, verifying and inspecting arms and their storage. There really is NO need for the whole population to be armed to the teeth with every sort of weapon, at any age, brandishing lethal purchases from any old gunshop and killing anything which moves including people. Total madness.

Subject: RE: 5yr old shoots 2yr old
From: Richard Bridge
Date: 08 May 13 - 05:11 AM

Oh shit. Now I agree with Eliza.   This is getting very worrying - I have agreed with (or been agreed with by) Don Thompson, Mither, Primitive Tribesman, the other one who changed his name, and now her.   Who AM I turning into?   Mind you I agree with Steve Shaw a lot too.

Subject: RE: 5yr old shoots 2yr old
From: Don(Wyziwyg)T
Date: 08 May 13 - 05:51 AM

""This is getting very worrying - I have agreed with (or been agreed with by) Don Thompson, Mither, Primitive Tribesman, the other one who changed his name, and now her.   Who AM I turning into?   Mind you I agree with Steve Shaw a lot too.""

Just goes to show that once we get you off the subject of UK Politics, you are quite a sensible fellow.

Don T.

Subject: RE: 5yr old shoots 2yr old
From: Richard Bridge
Date: 08 May 13 - 07:37 AM

Pot, kettle?

Subject: RE: 5yr old shoots 2yr old
From: Don(Wyziwyg)T
Date: 09 May 13 - 05:53 AM

INDUBITABLY!

Don T.

Subject: RE: 5yr old shoots 2yr old
From: Richard Bridge
Date: 09 May 13 - 06:08 AM

See you on the 18th, then, and you can bring your ouija board and see which of us Jacqui agrees with...

Subject: RE: 5yr old shoots 2yr old
From: Don(Wyziwyg)T
Date: 09 May 13 - 01:21 PM

You know she rarely agreed with you in public.

Don T.

Subject: RE: 5yr old shoots 2yr old
From: GUEST,Chris B (Born Again Scouser)
Date: 17 May 13 - 10:18 AM

Guns don't kill kids. Kids kill kids. (nod to Garry Trudeau).

Subject: RE: 5yr old shoots 2yr old
From: GUEST,Futwick
Date: 17 May 13 - 10:43 AM

"There really is NO need for the whole population to be armed to the teeth with every sort of weapon, at any age, brandishing lethal purchases from any old gunshop and killing anything which moves including people. Total madness."

Thanks for that info. I wasn't aware that I was advocating that.

Subject: RE: 5yr old shoots 2yr old
From: GUEST,Futwick
Date: 17 May 13 - 11:29 AM

The crazy thing is, there was recently another case of an 8yo shooting his 5yo brother in the head with a .22 rifle and then the VERY NEXT DAY I read about a 4yo shooting a 6yo neighbor in the head with a .22 rifle. And all this came on the heels of a 3yo shooting a deputy's wife to death because the idiots left a handgun where a kid could pick it up and obviously weren't watching.

You would think after the boy shot his sister that people would think twice about leaving weapons unattended around children and they obviously don't. What does it take? These people think that these other people were stupid and that won't happen with his kid because his kid is smart and knows gun safety. How can you get through to people that damned dense? That's why we can't get any meaningful gun control laws passed, these are the kinds of fucking idiots we're dealing with--the face of the NRA

Then all these cases, the only time charges were filed against anyone was the case of the 4yo shooting the 6yo--his father is being charged. Why aren't they being charged across the board?? Because they've suffered enough?? I don't give a shit! It shows how lax we are as a nation about stupid behavior and firearms. And it's obvious this will keep happening because we are determined not to learn from the stupidity of others.

Subject: RE: 5yr old shoots 2yr old
From: McGrath of Harlow
Date: 17 May 13 - 12:47 PM

Any problem of there being too many deer only arises where the natural predators have been wiped out. Wolves do the job better, and might well be less likely to kill people than unregulated hunters with overpowered weapons.

Subject: RE: 5yr old shoots 2yr old
From: GUEST,Futwick
Date: 17 May 13 - 01:23 PM

It doesn't matter. If there are too many deer then there are too many deer.