Lyr ADD: The Big Ship Sails

Subject: RE: Lyr Req: The Big Ship Sails
From: Joybell
Date: 27 Oct 03 - 07:31 AM

Oh Martin what a disapointment. How boring. Thanks though it's as well to know before we start a silly rumour. I've wondered for about 40 years about them.

McGrath, Haven't you watched "Harvey"? I love Harvey! He is a giant rabbit and he calls himself a Pooka. He's not what my Fairies book calls a Pooka, but how can you not believe Jimmy Stewart. My Faerie book says a Phooka/Phouka is a nastier being than a Boogle or Boogie, but it doesn't mention rabbits at all. It is an Irish form of Puck, aparently, and a sort of shaggy ponyish or bovinesque animal.
My Dear one says that in Irish the "h" would not be there and it should be Pooka. Take a look at "Harvey" anyway it's a wonderful film.
                                                    Regards Joy

Subject: RE: Lyr Req: The Big Ship Sails
From: McGrath of Harlow
Date: 27 Oct 03 - 07:12 AM

What about "too flat" and too sharp" as well?

Subject: RE: Lyr Req: The Big Ship Sails
From: Hamish
Date: 27 Oct 03 - 07:10 AM

I have been known to steal songs from the Scottish children's act The Singing Kettle. (Don't tell the adults I use 'em on: I don't think they suspect a thing!) and they do a version which includes:

"The big ship sails too high..." (sung falsetto)
"...too low..." (sung basso)
"...too fast..." (um, allegretto)
"...too slow..." (um, slowly)

which is kinda fun with the right sort of attitudes all round

Subject: RE: Lyr Req: The Big Ship Sails
From: McGrath of Harlow
Date: 27 Oct 03 - 06:48 AM

Aren't "pooka" and "bogey" cognate anyway?

Subject: RE: Lyr Req: The Big Ship Sails
From: MartinRyan
Date: 27 Oct 03 - 06:42 AM

OK. Nothing to do with spirits at all!
"Seilide búrca" (various spellings but pronounced roughly: shell-id-eh boork-ah)is an Irish (Gaelic)word for a snail. Because it was used in a children's game at one stage, it still turns up among children bilingually, so to speak.

Regards

Subject: RE: Lyr Req: The Big Ship Sails
From: GUEST,Martin Ryan
Date: 26 Oct 03 - 02:02 PM

Joybell

I don't know how to spell it either - but could say it clearly to you!The second word probably relates to the "pooka" (anglicised spelling) rather than "boogey", a mischievous spirit. I'l see if I can check the origin.

Regards

Subject: RE: Lyr Req: The Big Ship Sails
From: Joybell
Date: 25 Oct 03 - 05:58 PM

Salford was the location for "Taste of Honey" alright.

Subject: RE: Lyr Req: The Big Ship Sails
From: GUEST,Alec in Donegal
Date: 25 Oct 03 - 05:27 PM

Ringo Starr obviously knew it, scouse-wise, it came out as 'We all live in a Yellow Submarine...'

Subject: RE: Lyr Req: The Big Ship Sails
From: McGrath of Harlow
Date: 24 Oct 03 - 10:07 PM

"Who will be my partner?" - in the Dusty Bluebells. My wife reacalls it as "Who will be my leader?". That's from London, probably a slightly different game.

Subject: RE: Lyr Req: The Big Ship Sails
From: Brakn
Date: 24 Oct 03 - 09:30 PM

"A Taste of Honey."

Wasn't that set in Salford?

Subject: RE: Lyr Req: The Big Ship Sails
From: Joybell
Date: 24 Oct 03 - 09:10 PM

Lizabee, I spent many years as leader of a girls' group. I taught them lots of Play-party dance-games and the great thing is - You don't need musicians - you do the singing and handclapping yourselves and the moves are easy. (American Play-party games evolved partly because of a parental ban on dances and on musicians - whose influence was percieved as being corrupting). The kids pick them right up and teach you if necessary. Once I even taught them to several deaf children who translated the words into signs and taught the rest of the group how to sign. A very quiet night we had with lots of fun.
I am currently teaching them to elderly people because being self-paced these dances are perfect for people with limited mobility. We do versions of the Virginia reel as well as the more simple dances - all to our own accompanyment.
Be brave you can all learn together.

Subject: RE: Lyr Req: The Big Ship Sails
From: Charley Noble
Date: 24 Oct 03 - 08:03 PM

"A Taste of Honey." Yes, more bitter than sweet.

Cheerily,
Charley Noble

Subject: RE: Lyr Req: The Big Ship Sails
From: Joybell
Date: 24 Oct 03 - 07:53 PM

The movie which has this song at the begining and end is: "A Taste of Honey" (and a very brief taste it is too!)

Subject: RE: Lyr Req: The Big Ship Sails
From: Joybell
Date: 24 Oct 03 - 07:19 PM

I understood the Clancy's word for snails as "shell-a-kie (?spelling)Boogies" I wondered if this name related to the type of mischievous, sometimes dangerous, supernatural beings called variously bogies, boogles, bug-a-boos, bogeys. - snails being a shelled variety - but I've never been able to confirm this. My Irish frieds just said they called them snails.

Subject: RE: Lyr Req: The Big Ship Sails
From: GUEST,tommy liverpool
Date: 24 Oct 03 - 06:52 PM

In Liverpool this song is regarded as being of Liverpool origin. This may or may not be true. The manchester Shp canal starts from the Mersey, but alley was always viewed as being the alleys down to the mersey.

The 50's film was a taste of honey featuring Rita Tushingham. The song was sung by Liverpool School Children

Subject: RE: Lyr Req: The Big Ship Sails
From: Joe in the'pool
Date: 13 Aug 02 - 08:15 AM

Hi there, My thoughts on the 'alley O' was that ships where built 'at the bottom of the streets near the docks' and when you looked down the street it resembled an alley! areas in the UK that spring to mind are. Liverpool, Sunderland, Newcastle, Glasgow, etc. etc. So 'the big ships sailed down the alley alley O' was probably made by kids somewhere in these regions? Just a slightly educated guess but as valid as any I think!

Peace and Love Joe.

Subject: RE: Lyr Req: The Big Ship Sails
From: EBarnacle1
Date: 12 Aug 02 - 02:35 PM

There was a movie back in the 1950's (I believe) that had children singing this as the main musical theme. That's all I remember of it.

Subject: RE: Lyr Req: The Big Ship Sails
From: Nigel Parsons
Date: 11 Aug 02 - 09:04 PM

Don't I remember this being sung in the background of a hit song (not Lowry's cats and dogs, but something similar) ?

Nigel

Subject: RE: Lyr Req: The Big Ship Sails
From: Jim Dixon
Date: 11 Aug 02 - 06:29 PM

"A Big Ship Sailing," performed by the Clancy Children, appears on "So Early in the Morning: Irish Children's Songs, Rhymes & Games," Tradition CD #1053, 1997 (originally issued 1962). Click here for a description of the album at AMG.

Subject: RE: Lyr Req: The Big Ship Sails
From: running.hare
Date: 29 Nov 01 - 05:46 PM

My Guides had a great time doing both bigship, & bluebells tonight, & even whent on to oranges and lemons. Thx guys for the insperation :)

Now I just need to find a local caller / mucians who whouldn't mind volentearing their time for 1 evening ;)

Subject: RE: Lyr Req: The Big Ship Sails
From: GUEST
Date: 29 Nov 01 - 01:28 PM

And for what it`s worth, in the North of Ireland 60 years ago, we also sailed through the Aily illy o, and Dusty Bluebells was around as well. Strange how these childrens games transferred across to Ireland. Can any Dublin or Cork catters confirm. Game boy

Subject: Lyr Add: IN AND OUT THE DUSTY BLUE BELLS
From: running.hare
Date: 28 Nov 01 - 06:44 PM

IN AND OUT THE DUSTY BLUE BELLS

(children form a circle, hold hands & raise arms to form arches.. except for 1 child who 'skips' in & out of the arches)

"In and out the dusty blue bells,
In and out the dusty blue bells,
In and out the dusty blue bells,
who will be my partner?

(child stops behind nearest person in the circle)

pitter patter pitter patter on her (/his) shoulders
pitter patter pitter patter on her (/his) shoulders
pitter patter pitter patter on her (/his) shoulders
You shall be my partner."

(the child who has been patted on shoulders lets go from the circle, & joins 1st child weaving in & out. song starts again & so it goes on.

Subject: RE: Lyr Req: The Big Ship Sails
From: GUEST,MAG at work
Date: 28 Nov 01 - 02:16 PM

Hmmm, I learned this as:

O the big ship sails along the alley alley o, etc.

I use the leaf version for the Maypole at Spring Fling (Earth Day + Arbor Day + May 1.) I love teaching kids these play-party games which are their heritage but they never heard of. They love 'em.

Subject: RE: Lyr Req: The Big Ship Sails
From: roopoo
Date: 09 Nov 99 - 01:33 PM

Could be it. I was looking in "The Lore and Language of Schoolchildren" originally published 1959. I have the really up to date 1973 reprint!

mouldy

Subject: RE: Lyr Req: The Big Ship Sails
From: Roger the skiffler
Date: 09 Nov 99 - 10:39 AM

For what it's worth, AndyG's version is what I remember from about 50 years ago in Birmingham (UK).The falling down at the end seemed to be the whole point!

Subject: RE: Lyr Req: The Big Ship Sails
From: Peter T.
Date: 09 Nov 99 - 10:27 AM

the Opies have different books -- this one is called "The Singing Game". yours, Peter T.

Subject: RE: Lyr Req: The Big Ship Sails
From: alison
Date: 09 Nov 99 - 07:51 AM

Yep... like a cross between Bobby Shaftoe and London Bridge is falling down .. (I think the last line of each verse was "My fair lady")...

the one with the crossed arms.... you're not thinking of "Red Rover, Red Rover we call....... over"? then someone had to charge and try to break through the arms?... I'm sure we had a thread on this before.... can't remember the name..

slainte

alison

Subject: RE: Lyr Req: The Big Ship Sails
From: roopoo
Date: 09 Nov 99 - 03:36 AM

Ps - didn't the "dusty Bluebells" go to the tune of Bobby Shafto? I have just dug out an ancient copy of the Opie book which someone gave me years ago. Interesting. It was first published in the year I can first remember doing these rhymes. I can't find the Big Ship in it. Where do I look? I have found some variations of a skipping game we had to "Manchester Guardian,Evening News; Our back door goes Flip-Flap-Flooze". And on Flooze, the skipper bobs down and stays down while the twiners carry on at head height. The rhyme is repeated, and on Flooze the rope is swung down and the (stationary and crouching) skipper has to bob up and carry on. Going now before I get carried away.

mouldy

Subject: RE: Lyr Req: The Big Ship Sails
From: roopoo
Date: 09 Nov 99 - 02:56 AM

Do you know, Alison, I couldn't get "In and out the Dusty Bluebells" out of my mind with this.Thanks for the mental jog. I think we used to do a similar sort of thing as before, but not by a wall. I think it was done at a half-run in the middle of the playground. What happened when we all had our arms crossed completely escapes me!

mouldy

Subject: RE: Lyr Req: The Big Ship Sails
From: roopoo
Date: 09 Nov 99 - 02:52 AM

By the way, I wasn't being sarcastic, Peter T, it does somewhat describe me! We definitely didn't fall over in our version of the game. Not on purpose, anyway. I'm desperately trying to relive my playground days now. Must be a sign of encroaching senility.

mouldy

Subject: RE: Lyr Req: The Big Ship Sails
From: alison
Date: 09 Nov 99 - 02:51 AM

we used to sing and play this one too... it was very similar to "In and out go the dusty bluebells"..., but in the bluebells one the line stopped behind someone standing in the circle and did a "tipper-ripper-rapper on her shoulder" verse... then that person joined the line and they went under the arches of everyones arms...

slainte

alison

Subject: RE: Lyr Req: The Big Ship Sails
From: roopoo
Date: 09 Nov 99 - 02:30 AM

Thanks for the compliment! Blaster Bates defines an expert thus: "ex" is something that has been... "spert" is a drip under pressure.

mouldy

Subject: RE: Lyr Req: The Big Ship Sails
From: Peter T.
Date: 08 Nov 99 - 04:23 PM

Margaret, I am now thinking of trying it with adults. There is a fine debauched Rubens painting of the scene, which is part of a discussion of what villagers did in the days before television. I think they get all crossed up with each other, and have lots of soft things to fall down on. yours, Peter T.

Subject: RE: Lyr Req: The Big Ship Sails
From: Margaret\W
Date: 08 Nov 99 - 04:11 PM

Peter T

The instructions you quote are exactly what I would have sent you. Have fun trying the game with children, but give them a soft surface to fall onto!

Margaret W

Subject: RE: Lyr Req: The Big Ship Sails
From: Peter T.
Date: 08 Nov 99 - 02:24 PM

Oops, should have said that mouldy's version is the one cited by the Opie's (up against the wall variant)! Nice to hear from a trained expert!!!!!!!yours, Peter T.

Subject: RE: Lyr Req: The Big Ship Sails ^^
From: Peter T.
Date: 08 Nov 99 - 02:20 PM

Yes, the Opies on the trail..... In "The Singing Game" (Iona and Peter Opie, OUP, 1985) they call it the only survivor of the ancient "Thread The Needle" game, of which visual record goes back to the Lorenzetti frescos in Siena in 1350! Variations are found in Appalachian dance ("Killiecrankie, Winding Up the Maple Leaf, etc.) and in England under "Dan, Dan, Thread the Needle."
They note that the problem with the Manchester Ship Canal origin is that there is an 1870 recollection from New Zealand; and that it has some obscure connection to the Christmas ships sailing, and various "through and throught the salley go" threading the needle songs. They give an extensive description of how to play the game, as well as a picture, which I am puzzling out. Boy, I can hardly wait to try this one out.....

One version:
1) Long line of people holding hands.
2) The two people at one end, hold up their hands to form an arch.
3) The player at the other end of the line, everyone still holding hands, runs through the arch, pulling everyone along through as well. (Thus twisting the original arch makers)
4) The new two leading people form an arch, and the last person in the line (one of those who had formed the original arch) goes through, and the process continues until everyone is twisted around.
5) They then form a circle of their twisted arms, and fall down at the end!!!!!

Up against the wall version:

1) Long line with last person making an arch with her hand high up on a wall.
2) Person at other end leads whole line through the arch, and last person's arms are thus crossed over
3) The orginal line leader now moves the line through the arch (alley) between the player at the wall and her nearest neighbour, who is likewise "stitched". The line then goes through the arch between the second and the third player.
4) And so on. After the last stich is made, all players go into a circle. Dancing in a circle, or falling down ensuues!!!!
yours, Peter T. ^^

Subject: RE: Lyr Req: The Big Ship Sails
From: Penny. S
Date: 08 Nov 99 - 07:17 AM

Can anyone try the Opies?

Penny

Subject: RE: Lyr Req: The Big Ship Sails
From: AndyG
Date: 08 Nov 99 - 06:16 AM

Just to add my bit to this, being born in, and spending the first 30-something years of my life in the Manchester/Stockport area I too remember this rhyme.

I've not previously heard of a connection between the Ship Canal and the song, and sadly I find that the Canal was officially opened on 21 May 1894.

The rhyme I remember accompanied a dance-game as described above, usually a girls game. I remember a chorus as well, though after all this time it could just be my mind playing tricks :)

The big ship sails through the alley-alley-o
The alley-alley-o, the alley-alley-o;
The big ship sails through the alley-alley-o
On the last day of September.

Ch:
Alley-alley-o, alley-alley-o;
The big ship sails away
OH!
The big ship sails through the alley-alley-o
On the last day of September.

AndyG

Subject: RE: Lyr Req: The Big Ship Sails ^^
From: roopoo
Date: 08 Nov 99 - 02:28 AM

I can remember as a small child at school in Buxton, we all held hands in a line. The person on the end of the line put their right arm on the wall and then the others went under, the kid by the wall letting their left arm follow through to cross the arms. The line the went under the arch made by the first kid's left arm and the next kid's right and so on, until all had their arms crossed in front. They then made a circle, still with arms crossed, and sort of twisted left and right as they chanted the follow-on rhyme so that their arms (in front of their bodies at waist height) sort of slid up and down each other. I think the Big Ship song was finished off before the follow-on chant started:

Ip dip dip, my blue ship, Sailing on the water like a cup and saucer ip dip dip, my blue ship, O-U-T spells out!

At this point the memory is getting a bit unreliable (it was nearly 40 years ago) but at some point I think the arms were "bounced" up and down, maybe on the O-U-T spells out. Although it is a bit like a selection chant, I think it was merely the next down the line who started off again.

mouldy^^

Subject: RE: Lyr Req: The Big Ship Sails
From: Penny S.
Date: 07 Nov 99 - 02:51 PM

In Folkestone, we made a line with the end person having their hand against a wall. The line threaded the needle through that arch. Then the bully ran through, breaking up the line (not part of the game). This was repeated several times, I was blamed and that's why I know no more. I think that the needle threading happened with the between child arches. And we sang "alley-alley-ooo"

Penny

Subject: RE: Lyr Req: The Big Ship Sails
From: Peter T.
Date: 07 Nov 99 - 02:03 PM

Margaret, just exactly how do they move through the arch, and how do the arms get crossed? I would like to teach this to some small North American kids of my acquaintance.....yours, Peter T.

Subject: add: The Big Ship Sails ^^
From: Margaret\W
Date: 07 Nov 99 - 01:09 PM

Paul

The version I learned as a child (and which children in my school still use) goes as follows:

The big ship sails through the alley-alley-o
The alley-alley-o, the alley-alley-o;
The big ship sails through the alley-alley-o
On the last day of September.

Mother, father, may I go
May I go, may I go?
Oh mother, father, may I go
On the last day of September?

The captain says that'll never never do
Never never do, never never do.
The captain says that'll never never do
On the last day of September.

The big ship sank to the bottom of the sea
The bottom of the sea, the bottom of the sea;
The big ship sank to the bottom of the sea
On the last day of September.

Children thread through an arch for the first three verses so they all end up joined in a line with crossed arms, then make a circle for the last verse and fall to the floor at the end! It's good to see that this is one playground game which is still the same in North Northumberland as it was when I played it thirty years ago

Margaret^^

Subject: RE: Lyr Req: The Big Ship Sails
From: Liam's Brother
Date: 07 Nov 99 - 12:43 PM

Very interesting, wildlone. Thanks.

All the best,
Dan

Subject: RE: Lyr Req: The Big Ship Sails
From: wildlone
Date: 07 Nov 99 - 11:46 AM

I have asked Mother about this song,
The "Alley" is the Manchester ship Canal.
The date used was the day the canal was opened.

The big ship sails on the Alley Alley Oh,Alley Alley Oh,Alley Alley Oh, Rpt.
On the last day of September.

The Captain said this will never never do.ect

The big ship sinks in the Alley Alley Oh.----

We all drown in the Alley Alley Oh.----

We all jump up in the Alley Alley Oh.----
This is what she can remember of the Chester version of this song.

Subject: RE: Lyr Req: The Big Ship Sails
From: Stewie
Date: 07 Nov 99 - 11:45 AM

The Clancy Brothers sang a version that went like this:

There's a big ship sailin' on the illy ally o, the illy ally o, the illy ally o
There's a big ship sailin' on the illy ally o
Hi ho the illy ally o

There's a big ship sailin' rockin' on the sea, rockin' on the sea, rockin' on the sea
There's a big ship sailin, rockin' on the sea
Hi ho rockin' on the sea

There's a big ship sailin' back again, back again, back again
There's a big ship sailin' back again
Hi ho back again
Hi ho back again

They suggest 'illy ally o' was simply the children's nonsense expression for the sea in the way that they called the snails 'shellacky shellacky bookies' (if that's how you spell it).

Cheers, Stewie.

Subject: RE: Lyr Req: The Big Ship Sails
From: Peter T.
Date: 07 Nov 99 - 11:21 AM

Anyone know the origins of this song? I have sung this song since I was a kid and knew nothing about it -- me mam was from Newcastle. What is the Alley-Alley-all? yours, Peter T.

Subject: RE: Lyr Req: The Big Ship Sails
From: Liam's Brother
Date: 07 Nov 99 - 10:57 AM

Well, there are 3 "ooley-ooley-ulls" in the first line and I didn't close the quote at the end of the second verse but that's just about it as I recall. Remember, this is a folk song, so this is not an Official Version.

All the best,
Dan

Subject: Lyr Add: THERE'S A BIG SHIP SAILING^^
From: Liam's Brother
Date: 07 Nov 99 - 10:54 AM

THERE'S A BIG SHIP SAILING

There's a big ship sailing on the ooley-ooley-ull, the ooley-ooley-ull.
There's a big ship sailing on the ooley-ooley-ull, on the last day of November.

The Captain says, "It'll never-never-do, never-never-never-do, never-never-do."
The Captain says, "It'll never-never-do on the last day of November.

So we all stuck our heads in the deep blue sea, the deep blue sea, the deep blue sea.
We all stuck our heads in the deep blue sea on the last day of November.

All the best,
Dan Milner ^^

Subject: RE: Lyr Req: The Big Ship Sails
From: poet
Date: 07 Nov 99 - 08:52 AM

Poet's mate Phil, yet again!

I think that the song comes from Liverpool. I know that my mother and my grandmother used to sing it and that it was a song that went with playground games, although, without calling my mother to find out, I don't know which ones. I've also heard Cilla Black sing it on the telly!!!

Oh well, you can't win them all. Phil

Subject: RE: Lyr Req: The Big Ship Sails
From: Penny S.
Date: 07 Nov 99 - 08:46 AM

...on the last day of September.

The captain said she would never, never die...

Sorry, no more, I was kicked out of the game before they taught me the rest.