Irish? Sez who? and why?

Subject: Buy·broom. Irish? Sez who? and why?
From: MGM·Lion
Date: 03 Sep 13 - 09:52 AM

Googling the song "Lish Young Buy-a-Broom", I came across it on this website --

Irish Song Lyrics: Lish Young Buyabroom -- Irish Music - Song and Ballad Lyrics (http://www.traditionalmusic.co.uk/irish-songs-ballads-lyrics/lish_young_buyabroom.htm)

As the song is set in the North of England -- Cumbria, between Kirkby Stephen and Kendal -- I can't help wondering what sort of Irish Imperialism was in play to post it there.

Anyone any idea what goes on here?

~Michael~

Subject: RE: Irish? Sez who? and why?
From: GUEST
Date: 03 Sep 13 - 10:08 AM

"Everybody knows" that there is no English folk music or song apart from a few comic songs from the West Country. Everything else by definition must be Scots or Irish

Subject: RE: Irish? Sez who? and why?
From: Elmore
Date: 03 Sep 13 - 10:29 AM

Perhaps the fact that Clannad recorded the song had something to do with it. Several web sites refer to it as traditional, arranged by Geoff Wood. As you know, Michael,this sort of thing happens all the time in the folk music world.

Subject: RE: Irish? Sez who? and why?
From: Elmore
Date: 03 Sep 13 - 10:31 AM

Sorry, meant collected by Geoff Wood. (see above)

Subject: RE: Irish? Sez who? and why?
From: GUEST,leeneia
Date: 03 Sep 13 - 10:51 AM

Well, M (may I call you M? I feel I know you well by now.) The tune begins thus:

"As I went a-walking in the North Country,
Down by Kirby Steven I happened for to be,
As I was a-walking up and down the street,
A pretty little buy-a-broom I chanced for to meet.

Chorus:
For she was right, I was tight, everybody has their way,
It was the lish young buy-a-broom that led me astray."

The action is set in the north of England, but nothing says our wandering narrator comes from there.   He could have come from Ireland.

However, we have a clue, the word "lish." My dictionary says it means "active, agile, quick" and comes from Scotland and the north of England. So if we assume that he's speaking his own dialect (and why wouldn't he?), it's safe to assume that lyrics are from Cumbria, where the action is set.

The phrase "buy-a-broom," meaning "broom seller" isn't in my dictionary. I like it.

Subject: RE: Irish? Sez who? and why?
From: GUEST,Derrick
Date: 03 Sep 13 - 10:58 AM

It seems to me that the Irish regard anything they sing or play in a pub as Irish trad even if they know who wrote it and that he was not even Irish.
Perhaps they believe only they, the Irish, know what folk music is.
Perhaps they are right,ie music sung and played by ordinary people for
its own sake is folk music, reguardless of commercial ideas of classification.

Subject: RE: Irish? Sez who? and why?
From: dick greenhaus
Date: 03 Sep 13 - 11:04 AM

THe current definition of an Irish Traditional ong is "anything ever sung by an Irish performer"

Subject: RE: Irish? Sez who? and why?
From: GUEST,leeneia
Date: 03 Sep 13 - 12:12 PM

Always with the ethnic slurs! Aren't ya even gonna thank me for telling you what lish means?

Subject: RE: Irish? Sez who? and why?
From: MartinRyan
Date: 03 Sep 13 - 12:22 PM

Dick

Shouldn't that be "ever ung by an Irish performer."? ;>)>

Regards

Subject: RE: Irish? Sez who? and why?
From: G-Force
Date: 03 Sep 13 - 12:43 PM

I recently heard 'Fiddlers Green' introduced as an Irish sea shanty.

Subject: RE: Irish? Sez who? and why?
From: Dave the Gnome
Date: 03 Sep 13 - 01:07 PM

Well, of course. Everyone knows that ALL folk music is Irish no matter where it is from :-)

DtG

Subject: RE: Irish? Sez who? and why?
From: Elmore
Date: 03 Sep 13 - 01:08 PM

Yeah, "Fiddler's Green" is a prime example of a song performed by well known Irish groups, thereby "transforming" it into an Irish traditional song. John Conolly may say he's honored by this, but I bet he'd rather have the money that's due him.

Subject: RE: Irish? Sez who? and why?
From: sapper82
Date: 03 Sep 13 - 03:11 PM

The reason why the English are reckoned not to have much in the way of folk music is that all the decent stuff has been pinched by the Irish!

Subject: RE: Irish? Sez who? and why?
From: MGM·Lion
Date: 03 Sep 13 - 05:32 PM

Dearest leeneia: Only too gratified you should wish to address me in such delightfully familiar terms. Please do, indeed!.

Thank you for support re 'lish'. I wonder if it is derived in any way from 'delicious'?

Indeed, not only recorded by Irish singers anyhow. I recall it on one of Tim Hart & Maddy Prior's early 'Folk Songs of Old England' vinyls. Just went & found it on the shelf ~~ the sleeve note reads:

    'This Cumberland song is an amalgamation of three versions collected by Geoff Woods of Leeds between 1945-1967. It is believed to have been written by William Graham, "the Cumberland poacher".'

So, however much all folk music is Irish... LoL!

~M~

Subject: RE: Irish? Sez who? and why?
From: John P
Date: 03 Sep 13 - 06:05 PM

I think maybe the Irish shouldn't be blamed for appropriating a song in this instance. The website listed at the top of this thread that called it an Irish song is in England, apparently operated by an Englishman. Are the English giving away songs these days?

It is true that lots of folks, including an ex-bandmate of mine, think any music from anywhere in the British Isles is Irish. A few folks also see Scotland as a distinct source of music, but often as a subset of Irish music. Irish music became very popular several years ago, and most non-experts aren't very good at details. Also, to the misty-eyed multitude, "Celtic" is romantic and English is not. Go figure.

To be fair, I've never heard an actual person from Ireland claiming non-Irish songs. Americans, on the other hand . . .

Subject: RE: Irish? Sez who? and why?
From: Betsy
Date: 03 Sep 13 - 06:16 PM

Sometime in the early 70's ( could have been late 60's) I had the pleasure to be taken for a pint the night after I'd sang at the Adelphi Folk Club in Leeds. With me was Helen and Bob Spray and Jill and Jules Pidd. They introduced me to "the Professor". The Professor (Geoff Woods) was affectionately named, because he knew more about traditional Folk music than any of the rest of us.
He was a lovely entertaining and informative bloke - and he gave me the words to the "Lish Young Buy-a-Broom " which he said he had collected around 1947, all of which "pans-out" with MtheGM's Posting above.
The only contention I have, is, I would have thought that the song is from Westmorland and not from Cumberland, as, the place names Kirby Stephen and Kendal are clearly originally Westmorland although I fully understand the originator was from Cumberland.
Talk about splitting hairs !!!. I'll get me coat
Anyway back to the Subject Matter - One of the greatest Irishmen singers / performers Luke Kelly was a great Anglophile in his music choices especially Ewan McColl and later John Connolly / Bill Meek and it's possible that the less knowledgeable have formed their views listening to Dubliners CD's etc.
A Dutch couple in the North of Holland a had a pub called Fiddlers Green. They wouldn't believe it wasn't an Irish-written song, and, let's say, I wish I hadn't brought it to their attention. Some things are best left unsaid !!!!

Subject: RE: Irish? Sez who? and why?
From: GUEST,Allan Conn
Date: 03 Sep 13 - 06:36 PM

I've seen youtube clips where the Irish performers, be it Luke or whoever, will say this is a Ewan MacColl song or whatever and the comments on the videos will still insist it is Irish. Taking no note of what the singers themselves have said in their intro.

We have a pub session on a Friday night which does have a lot of the crowd pleasers played. I had an English guy the other week ask why we only played Irish songs? We'd done "Dirty Old Town" "Shoals of Herring" and "Leezie Lindsey" :-)

Subject: RE: Irish? Sez who? and why?
From: Noreen
Date: 03 Sep 13 - 06:43 PM

Anyone any idea what goes on here?

Seems pretty obvious to me- an English chap from East Sussex set up a website, for his own interest, containing all sorts of stuff, and made it available to anyone who's interested.

Unfortunately for those of us who do care, he doesn't seem particularly bothered about accuracy in his classification of the songs he's included.
Not only the Lish Young Buy-a-Broom, but also from a quick perusal, he thinks that Lord of the Dance, the Band Played Waltzing Matilda and I Wish I was back in Liverpool are also Irish.

He might be interested in amending his lists or he may not- but that's up to him. We can take advantage of the site he's put together (which also has the Child Ballads, and lots of instrumental tutors) or we can ignore it.

What there is absolutely NO BASIS for, is the trotting out of the same old boring lines about 'The Irish' claiming that all folk songs are Irish, or Derrick sharing his anti-Irish prejudices.

Please, give it a rest- it gets REALLY boring.

Thanks to leenia and anyone else who has tried to add something new to this thread.

Subject: RE: Irish? Sez who? and why?
From: GUEST,Ebor_Fiddler
Date: 03 Sep 13 - 06:57 PM

From memory I seem to think that Geoff collected "Lish Young Buy A Broom" while the singer bawled it out of one of the stalls in the pub gents! The term "Buy a broom", by the way, was a (North Country?) term for a gypsy, because at one time this was how some of them earned a living. The "music" was a melodeon (a term still used in East Anglia).
Geoff is still (at 90+) very much alive and kicking in the Leeds area, or so I was told recently. A lovely man.

Subject: RE: Irish? Sez who? and why?
From: Noreen
Date: 03 Sep 13 - 07:03 PM

Looking further, it seems the site originator isn't likely to be too interested in our input:

THIS collection consists of more than 1000 songs commonly associated with, or considered to have some connection with Irish music. This connection may simply be that they are often performed by "Irish" bands or in Irish pub sessions. However, as the main purpose is to provide the songs that site visitors are looking for, I have opted to also include many songs in the "associated" category, I hope this does not offend too many or cause you to grind your teeth when you look through the list of included songs below.

Irish Songs and Ballads - Lyrics - index page


Exit Noreen, grinding teeth....

Subject: RE: Irish? Sez who? and why?
From: Jim McLean
Date: 04 Sep 13 - 04:12 AM

I think Noreen has given the explanation MtheGM was looking for. I only looked under one letter of the alphabet and discovered a song written by me but performed by the Dubliners. I find these sites very valuable when looking for lyrics but most comments have to be taken with a pinch of salt. The site includes The Skye Boat Song which underlines the ignorance of the site originator.

Subject: RE: Irish? Sez who? and why?
From: MGM·Lion
Date: 04 Sep 13 - 04:33 AM

Indeed ~~ and many thanks for the information. I will just say that I think it was probably a misguided approach, as being clearly liable to produce more confusion than enlightenment; but do not feel moved to comment further, now that my two questions in the thread title have been so satisfactorily answered.

Again: Thanks to contributors and informants.

~Michael~

Subject: RE: Irish? Sez who? and why?
From: GUEST,eDerrick
Date: 04 Sep 13 - 04:55 AM

Noreen,I do not have anti Irish prejudices,I have Irish ancestors and am proud of it.
Perhaps I should have said "many of" instead of "the" Irish in the first sentence.
The remainder of my post consists of suggestions as to why so many people, Irish and otherwise, have the belief that so many songs and tunes
are of Irish origen when they are not.
Your second post supports those who suggest the idea that, if it is sung by an Irish singer the implication it is Irish or has Irish connections, leads to so many people of all nationalities believing it actually is Irish.
The answer to the original question "sez who", many ill informed people.
"and why" they can't be bothered to find the real answer.

Subject: RE: Irish? Sez who? and why?
From: Phil Edwards
Date: 04 Sep 13 - 04:55 AM

Incidentally, "lish" is an old Cumbrian dialect word meaning "nimble, agile, fit". Nobody seems to know where it comes from. One nineteenth-century lexicographer linked it speculatively with another local word of Nordic origin, "lysk" meaning "the groin". "Lis" is contemporary Norwegian for "light" or "fair"; it's not quite the same meaning, but it seems closer.

Subject: RE: Irish? Sez who? and why?
From: IanC
Date: 04 Sep 13 - 06:03 AM

Probaby a nearer word to lish, and one which remains in common English usage, is lissome which means most of the things above including active/agile.

:-)

Subject: RE: Irish? Sez who? and why?
From: GUEST,Allan Conn
Date: 04 Sep 13 - 06:26 AM

It isn't mentioned in the newer Concise Scots Dictionary but the Chambers Scots Dictionary published in 1911 gives the defintion of LISH as being "lithe, supple, agile" agreeing with Phil's definition

Subject: RE: Irish? Sez who? and why?
From: Phil Edwards
Date: 04 Sep 13 - 07:58 AM

I think 'lissom' is a false friend - it's a variant of 'lithe' (it's a contraction of 'lithesome'), & I can't see 'lithe' mutating into 'lish'.

Subject: RE: Irish? Sez who? and why?
From: Mr Happy
Date: 04 Sep 13 - 08:03 AM

...also labelled 'Celtic' music

Subject: RE: Irish? Sez who? and why?
From: GUEST,Gordon T
Date: 04 Sep 13 - 08:20 AM

Geoff Wood is still around (he collected the Lish Young By A Broom) and ,in fact, still performing most weeks at his regular club the Grove in Leeds on a friday. He seems to have taken to reciting poems by people like W.B Yeats - but does them from memory, which is quite impressive.I'll ask him when I see him in a week or two - but I always assumed "lish" was simply a condensation of "delicious".
... and for your delectation and delight here are two more songs almost always attributed wrongly as irish - The Black Velvet Band (from Harry Cox) and The Wild Rover (from loads of english singers)

Subject: RE: Irish? Sez who? and why?
From: Keith A of Hertford
Date: 04 Sep 13 - 08:30 AM

In a neat little town called Barking,

Subject: RE: Irish? Sez who? and why?
From: Phil Edwards
Date: 04 Sep 13 - 09:17 AM

Gordon (and MtheGM) - if we can be sure of anything, we can be sure that 'lish' hasn't got anything to do with 'delicious'. Here's the fruit of a few minutes' googling:

Lish adj Fit, agile Musta bin a gae lish coo er a lauw yat. It must have been a very agile cow or a low gate. It is popularly believed that this is the correct reply to the question, 'can a cuddy lowp a yat?' Lore has it that it is used to identify Cumbrians exiled in foreign parts, in a similar manner to the way that Masons identify each other through use of esoteric phrases.

[This is a bit odd, as 'cuddy' means 'donkey', not 'cow'.]

Lish, c., s.w., Leesh, N. supple, active.
Lishlike, G. well-made.

[I think "c." etc are short for "central", "North" and "southwest", i.e. regions of Cumbria; not sure about "G.", though]

Instances of misapprehension of the meanings of unaccustomed words and phrases are often quoted in the district. One of the best of them was told of a wealthy yeoman, well known in West Cumberland, who was sent when a youth to Green Row to finish a not very complete education, and being asked in class what is a verb active, replied, "a lish an."

[Pauses while gales of laughter subside]

Subject: RE: Irish? Sez who? and why?
From: GUEST,leeneia
Date: 04 Sep 13 - 10:18 AM

Lish, lithe and lissome might all be related. We've seen long i's and short i's do the do-si-do before. (my dictionary says that 'lisssome' comes from 'lithesome.')

Blithe and bliss
Lithe and lish

Wind and wind, as in

........................oh wind,
if winter comes, can spring be far behind?
===========
I just saw that 'lissome' means agile, but a 'lissom' is one of these three nouns:

1. a cleft in a rock
2. a platform or broad stratum of rock
3. a length of rope or braided straw

Who'd a thunk it?

Nice talking about language with you, M, Phil and Allan.

Subject: RE: Irish? Sez who? and why?
From: meself
Date: 04 Sep 13 - 10:28 AM

Maybe because the Irish "make it their own" ... ?

Along with, of course, the tendency of many people to become with each beer consumed more adamant about things they know nothing about.

Subject: RE: Irish? Sez who? and why?
From: Dave the Gnome
Date: 04 Sep 13 - 05:31 PM

lish looks very much like Irish without the 'r'. Goes to prove it IS Irish after all. Or lish...

:D tG

Subject: RE: Irish? Sez who? and why?
From: Jim Carroll
Date: 04 Sep 13 - 08:17 PM

English songs sung in Ireland become "Irish" just as Scots songs sung anywhere become known as being from wherever they are sung.
There is a huge Anglo-Irish repertoire; fifty-plus Child ballads were recovered in Ireland between the late 1960s and the mid-90s, many of them having disappeared elsewhere from the tradition, some of them a century or so before - making them 'Irish', though very few, if any originated here.
Apropos of nothing, in rural Ireland 'liss' refers to a fort or forth, an Iron age settlement believed in tradition to be the home of fairies - the "little" or "good" people.
They have been protected by superstition through the centuries, never built on or worked out of respect for their believed origins and are now widely recognised as major saviours of Irish archaeology.   
Jim Carroll

Subject: RE: Irish? Sez who? and why?
From: gnu
Date: 04 Sep 13 - 08:46 PM

Oh dear. Trash trad talk? Irritable Irish idlers and scurrilous Scots stealing songs from the English invaders? And what of the Welsh? Surely these contributing Celts must also pay for the education of the Germanic Tribes that invaded Britannia some thousand years ago?

Now, that Morris dancing stuff? Welllll... hells bells eh?

Subject: RE: Irish? Sez who? and why?
From: Rob Naylor
Date: 04 Sep 13 - 09:33 PM

Allan Conn: I've seen youtube clips where the Irish performers, be it Luke or whoever, will say this is a Ewan MacColl song or whatever and the comments on the videos will still insist it is Irish. Taking no note of what the singers themselves have said in their intro.

Happens a lot on YouTube. I've added comments to a German "Celtic" band's rendition of "Fiddler's Green", to a song by Steve Tilston about Tom Paine performed by Pig's Ear described as: "Wow Celtic music and Tom Paine!! I'm in heaven." by an American, and corrected another American who waxed lyrical about the "lovely celtic lyrics and Irish accent" of Kate Rusby performing Sandy Denny's "Who Knows where The Time Goes"!

I correct them where I see them, but the "drip drip" of corrections is as nothing to the flood of mis-apprehension!

Subject: RE: Irish? Sez who? and why?
From: GUEST,CS
Date: 05 Sep 13 - 03:52 AM

I wonder if it's a misplaced as well as displaced feeling of 'loving everything Irish' that principally originates from the States?

You get the same sort of thing happening on St. Patrick's day when all kinds of folk songs, traditional foods and so-on that hail from anywhere approximately in or around around Eire and the British Isles, are fondly claimed and celebrated as being "Irish"

Subject: RE: Irish? Sez who? and why?
From: Tattie Bogle
Date: 05 Sep 13 - 03:58 AM

I got summarily booted off 2 Facebook pages for "stirring it" - Scottish Folk Music" and "Scottish Songwriters and Friends ( friends....really??) ......for daring to supply the correct composer for one of the songs on YouTube that someone had posted and incorrectly attributed to another author! Of course, I wrote a song about it.

The Irish songs thing is possibly also perpetuated by the collection of 4 books that you can buy over here entitled "Songs and Ballads sung in the pubs of Ireland", which do contain quite a few Scottish and English ones too. The book title is, I suppose, accurate, but have heard friends refer to the books as "my Irish songbooks"

Subject: RE: Irish? Sez who? and why?
From: Phil Edwards
Date: 05 Sep 13 - 04:16 AM

the "lovely celtic lyrics and Irish accent" of Kate Rusby performing Sandy Denny's "Who Knows where The Time Goes"!

OK, beat that! (Personally I'm very partial to the lovely celtic lyrics and Irish accent of Chas and Dave singing 'Gertcha'...)

Subject: RE: Irish? Sez who? and why?
From: MartinRyan
Date: 05 Sep 13 - 04:40 AM

...around Eire and the British Isles..

Now, if we're talking about geographical confusion.... ;>)>

Regards

Subject: RE: Irish? Sez who? and why?
From: Dave Hunt
Date: 05 Sep 13 - 05:00 AM

We play in a lot of pub sessions - pretty well ALL English tunes, and the number of people who think they are Irish is amazing - and when we explain , they have no idea that there are ANY traditional English dance tunes!
DAVE

Subject: RE: Irish? Sez who? and why?
From: Reinhard
Date: 05 Sep 13 - 05:03 AM

Yesterday I got a newsletter from a well-known German folk mailorder shop. They list "The Liberty to Choose: Songs from the New Penguin Book of English Folk Songs" in the section "Scotland"...

Subject: RE: Irish? Sez who? and why?
From: Mr Happy
Date: 05 Sep 13 - 05:12 AM

'the number of people who think they are Irish is amazing - and when we explain , they have no idea that there are ANY traditional English dance tunes!'

Sadly, unlike most other countries & esp the 'home countries' of Gt. Britain, English folk song, dances & tunes are not included in mainstream school education, so it's really unsurprising that most everyday people are ignorant of their existence

Subject: RE: Irish? Sez who? and why?
From: SteveMansfield
Date: 05 Sep 13 - 05:52 AM

the "lovely celtic lyrics and Irish accent" of Kate Rusby
performing Sandy Denny's "Who Knows where The Time Goes"!

OK, beat that! (Personally I'm very partial to the lovely celtic lyrics and Irish accent of Chas and Dave singing 'Gertcha'...)

Back in the glorious days of the monthly Preston Eurojam, there were about ten of us sat around playing one Sunday lunchtime with a hurdy-gurdy and a set of Swayne bagpipes and, IIRC, a nyckelharpa, amongst the more usual flute, concertina, clarinet, violins etc. We played French bourrees and mazurkas, we played Swedish polskas and hambos, Italian munieras, and anything else that crossed our collective mind.

And at the end of this particular session one of the pub regulars said to me (you guessed) "you know, that was great, I really love all that Irish music ... "

Subject: RE: Irish? Sez who? and why?
From: MartinRyan
Date: 05 Sep 13 - 06:24 AM

Nice one, Steve!

The Nickelharpa that once through Tara's Halls, the soul of music spread.. - doesn't have quite the same ring to it, does it? ;>)>

Regards

Subject: RE: Irish? Sez who? and why?
From: Jim Carroll
Date: 05 Sep 13 - 08:37 AM

Interesting to see the ant-hill stirring after listening to Georgie Best being described as an 'English' footballer for so long - not that I give a toss for football, mind you
Jim Carroll

Subject: RE: Irish? Sez who? and why?
From: Jack Campin
Date: 05 Sep 13 - 09:02 AM

The phenomenon of YouTube fandom having its own ideas of who "owns" music regardless of what the performers say is common enough with Irish music buffs, but gets MUCH MUCH nastier in south-east Europe or the Caucasus. If you look at the comments to just about any song poular enough to have crossed a few national borders, you can learn how to say "your mother wears army boots" in Greek, Turkish, Albanian, Armenian, Azeri, Kurdish, Hungarian, Arabic and half a dozen Slavic languages.

There is a fabulous documentary about one instance of the process:

Whose Is This Song?

That film maker has guts.

Subject: RE: Irish? Sez who? and why?
From: Steve Gardham
Date: 05 Sep 13 - 09:31 AM

Now let's have one for the lovely old English song 'The Streams of Lovely Nancy'.

Subject: RE: Irish? Sez who? and why?
From: GUEST,Musket musing
Date: 05 Sep 13 - 09:44 AM

Mind you, arguing in a pub in Dublin the other year with a friend who happens to be of the emerald and pig under your arm persuasion;

It got a bit heated when he was trying to convince me that The Band Played Waltzing Matilda was written by Shane McGowan. I told him, being rather pissed and mischievous, that nobody from London could have written such a decent song and it must have been a Scottish bloke with a working knowledge of Australia.

Then we got onto Dirty Od Town.





Then the landlord asked us to stop feckin' shouting at each other.