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Lyr Req: Punjabi Girl (Vin Garbutt)

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GUEST,marmdad 22 Oct 13 - 03:18 PM
maeve 22 Oct 13 - 03:36 PM
GUEST,marmdad 22 Oct 13 - 04:25 PM
GUEST,marmdad 22 Oct 13 - 10:30 PM
maeve 22 Oct 13 - 10:42 PM
GUEST 23 Oct 13 - 04:23 AM
GUEST,marmdad 23 Oct 13 - 08:06 AM
GUEST 23 Oct 13 - 08:31 AM
GUEST,marmdad 23 Oct 13 - 01:13 PM
GUEST,marmdad 23 Oct 13 - 02:44 PM
maeve 23 Oct 13 - 03:02 PM
GUEST,marmdad 23 Oct 13 - 05:47 PM
maeve 23 Oct 13 - 07:41 PM
Q (Frank Staplin) 23 Oct 13 - 07:59 PM
Joe Offer 23 Oct 13 - 09:28 PM
Gibb Sahib 24 Oct 13 - 01:48 AM
Q (Frank Staplin) 24 Oct 13 - 01:59 PM
Gibb Sahib 24 Oct 13 - 02:21 PM
maeve 24 Oct 13 - 02:36 PM
Q (Frank Staplin) 24 Oct 13 - 02:50 PM
Gibb Sahib 24 Oct 13 - 03:09 PM
Q (Frank Staplin) 24 Oct 13 - 04:14 PM
Gibb Sahib 24 Oct 13 - 10:17 PM
GUEST,marmdad 25 Oct 13 - 04:27 PM
Q (Frank Staplin) 25 Oct 13 - 04:40 PM
Tootler 25 Oct 13 - 06:29 PM
McGrath of Harlow 26 Oct 13 - 08:47 AM
GUEST,marmdad 27 Oct 13 - 07:51 PM
GUEST,matt milton 28 Oct 13 - 06:44 AM
selby 28 Oct 13 - 07:22 AM
GUEST,Spleen Cringe 28 Oct 13 - 07:33 AM
GUEST 28 Oct 13 - 12:14 PM
GUEST 28 Oct 13 - 12:56 PM
GUEST,IreneM 30 Oct 13 - 02:13 AM
Betsy 30 Oct 13 - 07:26 PM
GUEST,marmdad 02 Nov 13 - 07:47 PM
McGrath of Harlow 02 Nov 13 - 08:16 PM
Gibb Sahib 03 Nov 13 - 03:33 AM
McGrath of Harlow 03 Nov 13 - 04:58 AM
Richard Mellish 03 Nov 13 - 05:19 AM
GUEST,marmdad 03 Nov 13 - 09:04 PM
McGrath of Harlow 03 Nov 13 - 10:14 PM
GUEST,marmdad 03 Nov 13 - 11:04 PM
Q (Frank Staplin) 04 Nov 13 - 04:25 PM
McGrath of Harlow 04 Nov 13 - 05:10 PM
GUEST,Jack Foley 18 May 16 - 06:17 AM
Peter the Squeezer 18 May 16 - 02:39 PM
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Subject: Lyr Req: Derby Girl
From: GUEST,marmdad
Date: 22 Oct 13 - 03:18 PM

Writer and lyrics of this song, please.


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Subject: RE: Lyr Req: Derby Girl
From: maeve
Date: 22 Oct 13 - 03:36 PM

Do you have any more information, Guest marmdad?


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Subject: RE: Lyr Req: Derby Girl
From: GUEST,marmdad
Date: 22 Oct 13 - 04:25 PM

Vin Garbutt sang it recently at the Derby Folk Festival.


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Subject: RE: Lyr Req: Derby Girl
From: GUEST,marmdad
Date: 22 Oct 13 - 10:30 PM

Refresh


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Subject: RE: Lyr Req: Derby Girl
From: maeve
Date: 22 Oct 13 - 10:42 PM

Good. Then since none of us has come up with the song, I suggest you ask him about it. http://www.vingarbutt.com/contact/

I kept finding a song about roller derby girls. Let us know what you find out, please. Good luck!


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Subject: RE: Lyr Req: Derby Girl
From: GUEST
Date: 23 Oct 13 - 04:23 AM

That is the same thing I kept coming up with.


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Subject: RE: Lyr Req: Derby Girl
From: GUEST,marmdad
Date: 23 Oct 13 - 08:06 AM

Maybe it is Derby Gal?


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Subject: RE: Lyr Req: Derby Girl
From: GUEST
Date: 23 Oct 13 - 08:31 AM

you are not thinking of Beeswing by chance? a song by Richard Thompson.


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Subject: RE: Lyr Req: Derby Girl
From: GUEST,marmdad
Date: 23 Oct 13 - 01:13 PM

Not sure of the actual title.


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Subject: RE: Lyr Req: Derby Girl
From: GUEST,marmdad
Date: 23 Oct 13 - 02:44 PM

punjabi girl,now I need the lyrics please


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Subject: RE: Lyr Req: Derby Girl
From: maeve
Date: 23 Oct 13 - 03:02 PM

The correct title is a help. You can either contact Vin Garbutt as suggested earlier or transcribe them from this YouTube file. http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=KqGflN2s1Rk


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Subject: RE: Lyr Req: Derby Girl
From: GUEST,marmdad
Date: 23 Oct 13 - 05:47 PM

Ta maeve,don't don't know how I got Derby girl out of that, now will try and find the lyrics, old ears, getting the earplugs tuned tomorrow.


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Subject: RE: Lyr Req: Derby Girl
From: maeve
Date: 23 Oct 13 - 07:41 PM

That's ok. I haven't had time to transcribe it for you. Sorry about that. If you have trouble with the lyrics, write what you have understood here and I'll lend an ear!

I did listen to the song and liked it.


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Subject: RE: Lyr Req: Derby Girl
From: Q (Frank Staplin)
Date: 23 Oct 13 - 07:59 PM

"Punjabi Girl" seems to have a fair number of verses.
The accent defeats me.


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Subject: RE: Lyr Req: Derby Girl/Punjabi Girl (Vin Garbutt)
From: Joe Offer
Date: 23 Oct 13 - 09:28 PM

Here's the chorus, at least:

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Subject: RE: Lyr Req: Derby Girl/Punjabi Girl (Vin Garbutt)
From: Gibb Sahib
Date: 24 Oct 13 - 01:48 AM

I can hear/ comprehend the lyrics. I find them mildly offensive - mind you, I know they are not *intended* to give offense, so I don't "take offense"...but still, not my cup of chaah. Suffice to say, I doubt there were any Punjabi women in the audience! Even if his wife were Punjabi, it's an awkward portrayal in my opinion.

Anyway, I am assuming, Guest, marmdad, that now a recording has been located (thanks, maeve!), you can go at getting the lyrics. However, if there is something hard to hear, I'm happy to offer what I hear.

N.B. Garbutt references "the war of '47". There was no "war" in 1947. That was the year when the British empire left India, and one of their men drew up the border that would divide the now-independent nations of Pakistan and India. Punjabis/Indians/Pakistanis know the event as "the Partition." This dis[placed millions, but generally it was the exchange of population across the new border, to either the Indian or the Pakistani side of the Punjab region. When he says the father (of the girl) left Punjab at the age of 2, that is confusing. More likely, the father went from one side of Punjab to the other. Later he says the family came to UK (Acklam, in the northeast, I presume) in 1969.


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Subject: RE: Lyr Req: Derby Girl/Punjabi Girl (Vin Garbutt)
From: Q (Frank Staplin)
Date: 24 Oct 13 - 01:59 PM

The Partition in 1947 was accompanied by horrific massacres, and thousands dying as they relocated.
Genocidal massacres were common.

There war a war- between India and Pakistan- also known as the First Kashmir War. There was a UN-guided settlement in 1949, giving Pakistan about 2/5 of Kashmir; India retaining the more fertile regions. The boundary is still being contested, with occasional border raids.

The Wikipedia has an article describing the campaigns during the War:
Indo-Pakistani War of 1947.


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Subject: RE: Lyr Req: Derby Girl/Punjabi Girl (Vin Garbutt)
From: Gibb Sahib
Date: 24 Oct 13 - 02:21 PM

Q -

Did you look that up just for the sake of argument (to split hairs - "there was a war"), or do you really think it has some bearing on this?

Just because I don't write every detail, it doesn't mean I am not aware of them.

The details being as they are, it doesn't make sense to refer to "the war of '47" (nobody says that), nor would the father character in the song have likely left "the Poonjab" (Punjab) then; he would have relocated to the "other side". (to Eastern Punjab if he was Sikh or Hindu; to western Punjab if he was Muslim). The lyric in the song makes it as though Partition was a war, and that it forced people out of that whole part of the world. (People involved in the Partition's uprootment don't say they "left Punjab"; they say we came to this side or that.) Further lyrics make it sound as if the father's family had some faith-driven reason for needing to strike out in new parts of the word, whereas the only "religious" reason had nothing to do with belief, but rather the religious community (however nominally) to which you belonged - the fact that Pakistan would be an Islamic state.
In short, the author has taken a vague knowledge of the events and reimagined the details and the motivations, probably according to other models (e.g. emigration of Vietnamese to U.S. after Vietnamese conflict).


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Subject: RE: Lyr Req: Derby Girl/Punjabi Girl (Vin Garbutt)
From: maeve
Date: 24 Oct 13 - 02:36 PM

I guess one would have to talk with Mr. Garbutt for more insight into the writing of the song.


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Subject: RE: Lyr Req: Derby Girl/Punjabi Girl (Vin Garbutt)
From: Q (Frank Staplin)
Date: 24 Oct 13 - 02:50 PM

"nobody says that"- Those involved in the Kashmiri conflict (war) of 1947-1949 might differ.


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Subject: RE: Lyr Req: Punjabi Girl (Vin Garbutt)
From: Gibb Sahib
Date: 24 Oct 13 - 03:09 PM

>might differ

But they don't.

It's reasonably clear, as it is that if it's raining I'll get wet when I go outside, that Partition is being referred to. More or less "all" Punjabis were affected by the Partition experience in some way; millions relocated. It is THE formative event in modern Punjabi history and identity. Sometimes they just refer to it as "1947" (or 'santaali" = '47). Sometimes as "vanD" or "baTvaara" ( = "partition").

The detail, in the song, that the girl's dad was uprooted during the Partition, when he was 2 years old, is rather unremarkable in perspective. Family then goes to England in 1969 - most likely just to try out their hand and a different/better life - by choice. They would not have been desperate refugees.

However, the author appears to be trying to paint some overall picture of this "dark" and exotic culture, emphasizing all these exaggerated woes and cultural differences, that simply misses the mark because it happens to lack adequate insight. It happens sometimes, not a biggie.


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Subject: RE: Lyr Req: Derby Girl/Punjabi Girl (Vin Garbutt)
From: Q (Frank Staplin)
Date: 24 Oct 13 - 04:14 PM

Seems to be some confusion between the Partition and the Kashmiri war which developed in the same year.
Salman Rushdie wrote an intriguing novel about a Kashmiri terrorist whose development was a result of the Kashmiri conflict.
The instrument signed by Mountbatten ceded Jammu-Kashmir to India; conflict developed almost immediately with Pakistani insurgents moving into the area. Thousands have died in the conflict. The dispute is ongoing and a large number of inhabitants want independence, having had little in common with either of the contenders.

Not understanding the lyrics because of the accent, I cannot comment on the burden of the Garbutt song.
I doubt that Garbutt had in mind much about the conflict when he wrote the song, so this is pretty much digression.


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Subject: Lyr Add: PUNJABI GIRL (Vin Garbutt)
From: Gibb Sahib
Date: 24 Oct 13 - 10:17 PM

Hi,

Here are the lyrics I could hear. Questionable/unknown parts are in brackets.


PUNJABI GIRL
(Vin Garbutt)

1. Her father left the Punjab in the war of '47,
A boy of two whose parents knew too well why they were leavin'
A nation and a land divided, many families grievin'
For those who have to lose so much for what they do believe in.

CHORUS: I never thought I'd fall for someone from another world
'Til I met and fell in love with a dark Punjabi girl.

2. Her parents moved to Acklam back in 1969.
Very soon a 'Boro moon shined on this love of mine.
I met her in the Linthorpe Road, her hair a raven shade.
So sweet and shy, she caught my eye; the likes I'd never seen.

3. Her eyes were bright and black as night, like jet on Whitby shore.
Her cheek possessed a patina no tulip ever bore.
Her loveliness and Eastern dress placed others in the shade,
But never yet did I regret the choice of this dark maid.

4. When we did declare our love to parents unsuspecting,
Her father said she'd see him dead if she was disrespecting
The ways of old, that crock of gold, that was her own tradition.
He'd bade her to treat Western ways with ultimate suspicion.

5. Likewise when my mother found a brown girl I had chosen,
With great distress she stressed that there were white girls by the dozen
To hold me and to care for me, but I could not be shaken.
The heart I'd lost in Linthorpe Road had been forever taken.

6. So now we live in Stockton town, our future long decided,
Just one great sadness from the past, our families divided.
My parents they can not forgive and hers try to forget her,
Though we have children of our own who'll make the future better.
There is a part of each of us permanently grievin'
For those who have to lose so much for what they do believe in.


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Subject: RE: Lyr Req: Derby Girl/Punjabi Girl (Vin Garbutt)
From: GUEST,marmdad
Date: 25 Oct 13 - 04:27 PM

Mr. Garbutt has not responded as of yet.
The accent fails me also.


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Subject: RE: Lyr Req: Derby Girl/Punjabi Girl (Vin Garbutt)
From: Q (Frank Staplin)
Date: 25 Oct 13 - 04:40 PM

Gibb Sahib, thanks for the lyrics.
"Partition" would be more correct, but too many syllables.

Interesting song.


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Subject: RE: Lyr Req: Derby Girl/Punjabi Girl (Vin Garbutt)
From: Tootler
Date: 25 Oct 13 - 06:29 PM

Accent no problem for me. Vin Garbutt is from Middlesbrough which is where I live.

Filling in some gaps

v.2 - Very soon a Boro' moon... - Boro' is how the locals refer to Middlesbrough.

v.3 Her loveliness and Eastern dress placed others in the shade.

The other words in square brackets are as you thought.

Other bits of info.

Acklam is a district of Middlesbrough
Linthorpe road runs due south from Middlesbrough centre. I used to drive up to work every day before I retired.

The last verse, fairly obvious they have moved away from both of their families but not very far. Stockton is on the North Bank of the river Tees, Middlesbrough is on the south bank.


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Subject: RE: Lyr Req: Derby Girl/Punjabi Girl (Vin Garbutt)
From: McGrath of Harlow
Date: 26 Oct 13 - 08:47 AM

When there's fighting and killing on a big enough scale, what else do you call it but a war? "Troubles" is a good word to avoid silly arguments like this, but "war" is perfectly accurate.

After all neither the Korean War nor the Vietnam War nor the Iraq nor Afghanistan Wars involved any declarations of war, so it can be argued they should be called something else.

"Mildly offensive" seems strange to me. As if the very Mention the existence of prejudice or skin colour must be offensive.

Like many of Vin's songs this doesn't look great on paper, but when he sings it it's magic. Even if you can't understand the words half the time.


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Subject: RE: Lyr Req: Punjabi Girl (Vin Garbutt)
From: GUEST,marmdad
Date: 27 Oct 13 - 07:51 PM

refresh


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Subject: RE: Lyr Req: Punjabi Girl (Vin Garbutt)
From: GUEST,matt milton
Date: 28 Oct 13 - 06:44 AM

"Mildly offensive" seems strange to me. As if the very Mention the existence of prejudice or skin colour must be offensive."

"Mildly offensive" doesn't seem at all strange to me in this context. These lyrics made me cringe:

"Her loveliness and Eastern dress placed others in the shade
But never yet did I regret the choice of this dark maid"

and the chorus too.

I imagine it was written a long time ago. I can understand how a songwriter who enjoyed writing in the folk idiom - using tropes and models and stock phrases of English folk like "fair young maid" etc – would write lyrics like that. I can imagine that, back in say the 1970s, a song singing of love across a very real divide of racial prejudice would go down well to an audience of white liberals, and might have even riled some of the more conservative audience members. It might even have been welcomed by a Punjabi listener in an era when the black and white minstrel show was still being screened. You can see that it's well meaning.

But the song itself objectifies and fetishizes the "otherness" of this girl in a way that's inexcusable in the much more racially integrated 21st century. It's pretty creepy, frankly. It's racist in the sense that it is objectifying the face and appearance of the beloved, but not as an individual - the way classic love poetry has ever since Petrarch or Shakespeare's sonnets – but as a racial type.

Like Gibb Sahib, I wouldn't use the word "offensive". I think that's a bit of a red herring most of the time it's used. Can't remember the last time I felt actually personally offended by something like this. (And I imagine even if I were a punjabi girl, I'd probably find this rather more embarassing than offensive, a relic of a bygone age) No, the charitable word for this song would be "clumsy".

This song reminds me a little of Frank Zappa's "Jewish Princess", only Frank Zappa was massively taking the piss out of this sort of objectification (and still failing somewhat: "Jewish Princess" still ends up being pretty racist). This song seems to be entirely earnest.

We don't talk about 'dusky beauties' anymore.


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Subject: RE: Lyr Req: Punjabi Girl (Vin Garbutt)
From: selby
Date: 28 Oct 13 - 07:22 AM

Its a song,not a political manifesto, and at least the song has people discussing it although in my opinion for the wrong reasons, if you can do better on the subject write one yourself,
Keith


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Subject: RE: Lyr Req: Punjabi Girl (Vin Garbutt)
From: GUEST,Spleen Cringe
Date: 28 Oct 13 - 07:33 AM

More cringeworthy than offensive. Must have been written in the seventies...


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Subject: RE: Lyr Req: Punjabi Girl (Vin Garbutt)
From: GUEST
Date: 28 Oct 13 - 12:14 PM

Wasn't it just a contemporary (whenever it was) twist on an old theme ? Falling in love across a cultural/social/religious/you-name-it divide that an older generation had trouble accepting.


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Subject: RE: Lyr Req: Punjabi Girl (Vin Garbutt)
From: GUEST
Date: 28 Oct 13 - 12:56 PM

To continue, having re-read matt milton's post above.

I first heard Vin Garbutt sing it shortly after going the to the funeral of an old lady I had know for several decades. Until the priest spoke about her I had not known that she had been thrown out of her family (in the 1930s) for marrying across what is still, in some areas, a troublesome denominational divide. The priest said he was glad that in that parish it was thing of the past but was sad to see analogous situations within the local community as it now was. He was meaning just the sort of story recounted in the song.

I think he could empathize with the families involved. I think Vin Garbut does too.


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Subject: RE: Lyr Req: Punjabi Girl (Vin Garbutt)
From: GUEST,IreneM
Date: 30 Oct 13 - 02:13 AM

Refresh


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Subject: RE: Lyr Req: Punjabi Girl (Vin Garbutt)
From: Betsy
Date: 30 Oct 13 - 07:26 PM

I think sometimes one has to allow for poetic licence - as we truly don't know what situation(s) drove the writer to compose the song.
Also if my memory serves me right, for example the Falklands "War" as it is often referred , was in fact a "conflict" as I understand that "War" was never formally declared .
Some things written when the Muse visits may look completely different 20 or so years after they're written ,so whilst it might be a good topic of discussion ,especially of widely different points of view - he song stands , and will be sang as often as the writer feels comfortable.
Everyone is entitled to write his own version of the events discussed herein, and I wish you good luck in doing so.
Another example Roger Whittaker made a lot of money singing about Durham Town (it's a City) being on the banks of the river Tyne (it actually sits on the river Wear) but we don't beat ourselves up over technicalities and mistakes.
We're grown-ups,we understand such things and we move on.


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Subject: RE: Lyr Req: Punjabi Girl (Vin Garbutt)
From: GUEST,marmdad
Date: 02 Nov 13 - 07:47 PM

refresh


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Subject: RE: Lyr Req: Punjabi Girl (Vin Garbutt)
From: McGrath of Harlow
Date: 02 Nov 13 - 08:16 PM

The practice of declaring war has gone by the wayside. These days they just start without a formal declaration. And normally they are given some other label, such as conflict or emergency. But of course everybody outside government, including the people doing the fighting call them by their proper name, a war.

....................
I find bizarre that recognising the existence of racial prejudice and the like is seen by some as offensive or inappropriate or something. I rather suspect that that can be one factor in helping it survive.


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Subject: RE: Lyr Req: Punjabi Girl (Vin Garbutt)
From: Gibb Sahib
Date: 03 Nov 13 - 03:33 AM

Jesus Christ.

@GUEST,marmdad - Why do you keep on refreshing this? What are you looking for that has not been given already?

@McGrath (Betsy, etc) - Can you please take your head out of your ass on this topic, and stop your pointless arguing that, because *you* feel you can label the events "war," that they should be. I have already explained that the 1947 Partition was not a war. And nobody calls it a war either. And to do so carries connotations that are way off the mark. Please accept that while you are presuming that it was a war (i.e. without bothering to ask people what they call it or informing yourself on the details), the simplest explanation here is that the song's author, rather innocently, did the same. Yet, in doing so - and when I brought it up I said "Incidentally..." as in "This is no huge deal to worry about, but something to note" - the author has IMO missed the mark in (this as in other places of) the song.

I have already offered some of the many ways that Punjabis, whose ancestors were involved in this event, refer to it - in English and Punjabi.

How do I know these?

One way is because I speak Punjabi. I taught the language in uni for several years. In fact, I co-authored a textbook on learning Punjabi. And I developed that textbook while an associate at something called the Center for Punjab Studies. At this Center, over the years, we continually invited people from Punjab and scholars on Punjab. 'Partition,' as you might imagine, was a recurring topic. (As I've mentioned, it might be THE formative event of modern Punjabi identity.)

I have translated (and it has been published) the poetry of Punjabi poets, on this topic. My work on Punjabi culture has been published several times in the _Journal of Punjab Studies_ and elsewhere.

I have attended innumerable conferences, in North America, India, and recently in Europe, that are about the Punjabi and especially the Punjabi Diaspora (emigration out of the region).

I have worked for the US govt. on a program related to Punjabi language in Pakistan. Again, this stuff comes up all the time.

Most of all, I have done extensive ethnographic field-work in Punjab. I have traveled to all of the administrative districts, interviewing people in both English and the local language. More than 50% of every conversation I'd have, I estimate, mentioned Partition at some point. This was especially because, not only was I documenting the history of families' migrations, but also documenting changes in music - which was greatly affected by this event.

I am disciple to a (late) musical "guru" whose family, like so many, migrated at the time of Partition. His entire ethnic community migrated, in fact. You would be amazed to hear some of the stories of what they went through and how lifestyles changed.

A large number of my friends are Punjabi, and I am constantly hearing them talk about the topic of Partition. And, in fact, I dated a "girl" of Punjabi extraction, not from the Northeast UK, but from the Midlands (as well as more than a few talks about "cross-cultural" dating with other Punjabi women). So in addition to having an intimate understanding of how people discourse about Partition, both in the realm of professional scholarship and in conversation, and of its emotional resonances, I also know something about how people would react to the portrayal in this song - "barf!"

Britain fucked up Punjab when they got their guy to come in, a guy with no clue about the geography and culture of the area, to come in and chop it up. It was the presumption that they knew best, and could just look at some numbers and say this is how "we" think it should be. What is truly OFFENSIVE is this presumptuousness. Such presumptuousness is being echoed in your persistence in asserting your supposed superior logic of what defines war or what should be called "war." The song, too, to an extent, silences the perspective of Others, in two ways. First, by not giving them a voice at all. Second, by overwriting the facts with a clumsy English voice. The poor taste that I allege many would find in the song is not because it recognizes "the existence of racial prejudice and the like." matt milton explained quite well some of the off-putting features, and yet you simply repeat the "red herring" (as matt put it) of "offensive" and put out the straw argument of how strange people are "these days"...those strangely oversensitive people who are just so offended by everything...

By the way, all that fieldwork I did over years in Punjab? It was about caste and ethnicity - about the (racial) prejudice against certain groups. And as a teacher of ethnomusicology, I am constantly engaging students as such topics, for example blackface minstrel music or Chicano music in the USA. And my research on chanties is practically ALL about recognizing issues of race/ethnicity. So why in hell would you come to such a simplistic conclusion that I or any other reasonably intelligent person is offended by talk about race? If you find it bizarre, that's probably because ... you've understood it wrong (i.e. nobody is offended by that).


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Subject: RE: Lyr Req: Punjabi Girl (Vin Garbutt)
From: McGrath of Harlow
Date: 03 Nov 13 - 04:58 AM

When there is fighting between two sides, whether it's gangs in the city, insurgents, or armies in the field, that's perfectly properly referred to as a war (among other terms) regardless of the legal situation, That's how language works, But it really isn't a matter worth getting excited about.

"Mildly offensive" was your term, Gibb. If I misinterpreted precisely what it connoted in this context I apologise.


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Subject: RE: Lyr Req: Punjabi Girl (Vin Garbutt)
From: Richard Mellish
Date: 03 Nov 13 - 05:19 AM

GUEST,matt milton said
'These lyrics made me cringe:
"Her loveliness and Eastern dress placed others in the shade
But never yet did I regret the choice of this dark maid"
--snip--
... the song itself objectifies and fetishizes the "otherness" of this girl in a way that's inexcusable in the much more racially integrated 21st century.'

The young man is attracted by the girl's beauty (including her dark complexion) and dress. There's nothing wrong with that and with the song's mentioning it. Many other songs comment similarly on girls' dresses and appearance. Clearly the couple have much more besides appearance to bring them and keep them together. The song highlights the contrast between that and both families' horror at what many would even now still label as a "mixed marriage", whether the mixture be of "race" (which is superficial) or culture (which can be deeper).

Cross-cultural marriages CAN be problematic. I recently read somewhere (I forget where) of men from the middle east who live for a while in the west, adopt western customs and marry western women, then take them back to their native countries and change their behaviour drastically, to the detriment of the wives.

Richard


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Subject: RE: Lyr Req: Punjabi Girl (Vin Garbutt)
From: GUEST,marmdad
Date: 03 Nov 13 - 09:04 PM

I did not refresh this thread, but does seem to continually generate discussion, and who are you to dictate want can and cannot be refreshed.


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Subject: RE: Lyr Req: Punjabi Girl (Vin Garbutt)
From: McGrath of Harlow
Date: 03 Nov 13 - 10:14 PM

Sometimes an Original Poster gets a sense of ownership (mistakenly), and might even want to close a thread down. And sometimes a thread turns toxic, and anyone might suggest it's time to end the nastiness. But for a later poster to object to a non-toxic thread being refreshed, especially addressing that objection to the OP, is a novelty to me.

Why not stick around and sign in as a member, marmdad? It's mostly friendly enough, and you learn lots of stuff.


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Subject: RE: Lyr Req: Punjabi Girl (Vin Garbutt)
From: GUEST,marmdad
Date: 03 Nov 13 - 11:04 PM

I am a member, do not understand why it has recently showed as a guest.
Do not understand why someone would object to refreshing a thread that doesn't really concern them, was just collecting info concerning a song. Besides, I didn't do the last refresh.


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Subject: RE: Lyr Req: Punjabi Girl (Vin Garbutt)
From: Q (Frank Staplin)
Date: 04 Nov 13 - 04:25 PM

War, Merriam Webster
2b.: A struggle or competition between opposing forces or for a particular end. ~against disease

war: 13 c. To be in active or vigorous conflict.

The OED has a section of the definition devoted to conflicts with immaterial weapons.

A war of words frequently develops below the belt at mudcat.

Non-military conflicts were certainly a part of the Partition. War, within the broad range of meaning of the term. Some 500,000 were killed as a result of the 1947 Partition.


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Subject: RE: Lyr Req: Punjabi Girl (Vin Garbutt)
From: McGrath of Harlow
Date: 04 Nov 13 - 05:10 PM

The war broke out at the break of dawn it emptied out the streets
Joey and his brothers suffered terrible defeats
Till they ventured out behind the lines and took five prisoners
They stashed them away in a basement called them amateurs.


From Bob Dylan's Joey, about a New York gangster. Just one example at random about how the word is used.


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Subject: RE: Lyr Req: Punjabi Girl (Vin Garbutt)
From: GUEST,Jack Foley
Date: 18 May 16 - 06:17 AM

Oh, gie's a break, you lot!

If the line bothers you so much, just sing:

Her father left the Punjab in the YEAR of '47

The rest of the verse refers to the partition business and may stop you having your sleepless nights.


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Subject: RE: Lyr Req: Punjabi Girl (Vin Garbutt)
From: Peter the Squeezer
Date: 18 May 16 - 02:39 PM

Try this

Punjabi Girl


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