BS: Thatcher fibbed about coal mines!

Subject: RE: BS: Thatcher fibbed about coal mines!
From: The Sandman
Date: 06 Jan 14 - 11:50 AM

Fred, my late father County Councillor George Miles put up about a dozen kent miners in his house during the strike, I remember clearly the talk that a lot of the policemen did not have identification numbers, my father verified this,sorry cant help with the name of the book.

Subject: RE: BS: Thatcher fibbed about coal mines!
From: GUEST,Fred McCormick
Date: 06 Jan 14 - 12:08 PM

Ok. I've got it. The book is by Seumas Milne and is called The Enemy Within: Thatcher's Secret War Against the Miners, and it seems to be a pretty damning critique of the roles played by MI5, the Special Branch etc. Moreover, SM is a highly respected journalist which means that his conclusions are probably well substantiated.

Unfortunately, my local library doesn't keep a copy (shock, horror. Well I never!) and I don't feel I can justify buying any more books at the moment, especially having withstood the tides of Christmas. But if anybody can tell me what it says in relation to the allegation about soldiers in police uniforms, I'd be glad to know.

BTW., my local library may not carry SM's book, but they do carry a surprisingly large selection of books on or about or by her, including her autobiography.

They also stock a nice bit of entertaining late night reading by some Austrian or other called Adolf Hitler. let me see now. Ah yes, that was the name of it, Mein Kampf. Something about kampfing I think.

Subject: RE: BS: Thatcher fibbed about coal mines!
From: MGM·Lion
Date: 06 Jan 14 - 12:11 PM

McCormick's a liar
He knows he's a liar
Oh how dire
His pants are on fire.

Hope he doesn't burn his bollox too severely.

Peekaboo, Freddie poppet!

☠☺☠☺☠☺☠☺☠☺☠☺☠☺☠☺☠

Subject: RE: BS: Thatcher fibbed about coal mines!
From: Jim Carroll
Date: 06 Jan 14 - 12:15 PM

Oh dear!!!
Jim Carroll

Subject: RE: BS: Thatcher fibbed about coal mines!
From: GUEST,Fred McCormick
Date: 06 Jan 14 - 12:17 PM

GSS. Our British police are notorious for removing their ID under such circumstances. I don't know why because they can't possibly have anything to hide can they? After all, nobody at headquarters seems to mind, and it's dead handy when it comes to killing the odd innocent newspaper seller. So the fact that some of these geezers had no ID badges doesn't mean they were soldiers. It just unfortunately means they had no ID badges.

Subject: RE: BS: Thatcher fibbed about coal mines!
From: GUEST,Fred McCormick
Date: 06 Jan 14 - 12:20 PM

Like I said. an urgent candidate for the straightjacket. Just ignore the pillock.

Subject: RE: BS: Thatcher fibbed about coal mines!
From: MGM·Lion
Date: 06 Jan 14 - 12:42 PM

Ah diddums, Fweddie dear. Getting twoss, are we? Aaaaahhhhh!

Subject: RE: BS: Thatcher fibbed about coal mines!
From: MGM·Lion
Date: 06 Jan 14 - 12:49 PM

... & learn to spell, ignoramus. Told you once --

'strait', as in narrow bit of sea &c, means narrow or restricted; as in 'straitened circumstances', meaning a lack of money.

So a restraining jacket is a 'strait' one; it isn't 'straight' in any sense, you pigheaded booby.

Just think, for once. And learn something without being so self-satisfied obstinate in your ignorance. Even the great McCormick doesn't know it all, you know.

Subject: RE: BS: Thatcher fibbed about coal mines!
From: The Sandman
Date: 06 Jan 14 - 12:52 PM

MI5were involved in the 1973 miners strike as well Gormley was reporting back to them on union meetings.

Subject: RE: BS: Thatcher fibbed about coal mines!
From: MGM·Lion
Date: 06 Jan 14 - 12:58 PM

And have you noticed that F McC seems to have a bondage kink, as well as a tendency to violence?

Just saying...

Subject: RE: BS: Thatcher fibbed about coal mines!
From: selby
Date: 06 Jan 14 - 12:58 PM

I worked in a Power Station and we had a picket on the gate when the local bobbies where on duty they looked after each other. The met arrived, took over our mess room and treat us, the power station workers like plebs I have no repeat for the met what so ever.
Keith

Subject: RE: BS: Thatcher fibbed about coal mines!
From: GUEST,LynnH
Date: 06 Jan 14 - 01:24 PM

@MtheGM.......isn't it about time you grew up and stopped throwing little temper tantrums?

Subject: RE: BS: Thatcher fibbed about coal mines!
From: GUEST,Eliza
Date: 06 Jan 14 - 01:25 PM

There is an excellent and very readable book by Catherine Paton Black called 'At The Coalface'. It's her autobiography of the Miners' Strike years, and an account of her husband's struggles to find work in Lanarkshire as a miner. He moved to Nottinghamshire and got a job underground at Bevercotes mine. When the whole pit went on strike (apart from a few 'scabs') she turned the pit canteen into a huge soup kitchen, and stridently supported the strikers facing police brutality.
The Strike divided families and caused terrible hardship and suffering. From my viewpoint, the life of a miner was terrible anyway. She gives some graphic and illuminating accounts of the conditions underground, dreadful accidents and grievous health problems of the men. Her whole life, and that of her husband, was one of backbreaking work, poverty, danger and despair. I was quite relieved when he found work above ground eventually, but his health was shot to pieces. If one reads this book, one has an insight into the political situation during those terrible times, and some inside views of Thatcher, the Police and the miners.

'At The Coalface' by Catherine Paton Black (publisher Headline)
ISBN -10 0755363256
ISBN-13 978-0755363254

Subject: RE: BS: Thatcher fibbed about coal mines!
From: Peter K (Fionn)
Date: 06 Jan 14 - 01:27 PM

As far as MtheGM is concerned, could we please just accept that it's a difficult situation? Constantly goading him is not going to help. But he would lend his pedantry a bit more credibility by recognising that the English language is constantly evolving and there is no universal standard or authority governing English spelling. Shakespeare (AKA Shakspear, etc) and those who helped bring his work to the printed page sometimes spelt a word in different ways within a single play. GBS did not demean his writing one iota, nor cause any confusion of meanings, with his frequent departures from some widely recognised norms.

Straightjacket.

Subject: RE: BS: Thatcher fibbed about coal mines!
From: MGM·Lion
Date: 06 Jan 14 - 02:12 PM

A reminder, LynnH:

My first contribution to this thread was a perfectly valid point about Thatcher's having received more support than Scargill: to which the charming Mr McCormick saw fit, with no further provocation, to respond

"You can of course ignore the vapid rantings of MTHEGM"

I take it you know the French proverb about the "animal très méchant..."?

    Cet animal est tres méchant;
    Quand on l'attaque il se défend.
       (This animal is very malicious; when attacked it defends itself.)
      

However, I have done with responding to McC, having reached the point, so well summarised by the incomparable Jane Austen, of regarding him as too stupid to "deserve the compliment of rational opposition".

Thank you for your comment nevertheless: it is as well to be warned when one might jut be going a bit OTT.

Regards

~Michael~

Subject: RE: BS: Thatcher fibbed about coal mines!
From: The Sandman
Date: 06 Jan 14 - 02:17 PM

well that has straightened that one out, e were getting into dire straits there we could have been expecting why worry next
Baby I see this world has made you sad
Some people can be bad
The things they do, the thing they say
But baby I'll wipe away those bitter tears
I'll chase away those restless jears
That turn your blue skies into grey

Why worry, there should be laughter after pain
There should be sunshine after rain
There things has always been the some
So why worry now

Baby when I'm down I turn to you
And you make sense of what I do
I know it isn't hard to say
Bat baby just when this world seems mean
Our love comes shining red and gold and cold
And all the rest is by the way

Why worry, there should be laughter after pain
There should be sunshine after rain
There things has always been the some
So why worry now

Subject: RE: BS: Thatcher fibbed about coal mines!
From: GUEST,Fred McCormick
Date: 06 Jan 14 - 02:22 PM

Lynn and Peter K. Like I said, ignore him, just as you would an attention seeking brat. He's bound to go away eventually.

Subject: RE: BS: Thatcher fibbed about coal mines!
From: GUEST,Libra
Date: 06 Jan 14 - 02:47 PM

He has already. Look back 3. Seems to be you who wont let go now

Subject: RE: BS: Thatcher fibbed about coal mines!
From: The Sandman
Date: 06 Jan 14 - 03:45 PM

michael grosvenor myer saidMy first contribution to this thread was a perfectly valid point about Thatcher's having received more support than Scargill. please provide proof or stats to back up this statement.

Subject: RE: BS: Thatcher fibbed about coal mines!
From: Stilly River Sage
Date: 06 Jan 14 - 04:04 PM

Seumas Milne - The Enemy Within: Thatcher's Secret War Against the Miners

A Google Book search - you can order it any number of ways as an out of print book or find in a library. Bookfinder.com

SRS

Subject: RE: BS: Thatcher fibbed about coal mines!
From: The Sandman
Date: 06 Jan 14 - 04:58 PM

MTHEGM, to paraphrase Gradgrind, Now what i want is facts, so please stop giving opinion, without backing up your statement with proof.

Subject: RE: BS: Thatcher fibbed about coal mines!
From: The Sandman
Date: 06 Jan 14 - 05:02 PM

as you appear to be unable to do so I will quote to you hard times again'You are extremely deficient in your facts. Your acquaintance with figures is very limited. You are altogether backward, and below the mark

Subject: RE: BS: Thatcher fibbed about coal mines!
From: Jim McLean
Date: 06 Jan 14 - 05:04 PM

MtheGM, we've had wee spats int the past but these recent exchanges with Fred McCormick look as if you've really lost the plot. Alcohol, pills, medication? Just lie down in a darkened room and take deep breaths.
Address the real issues of Thatcher's lies.

Subject: RE: BS: Thatcher fibbed about coal mines!
From: Big Al Whittle
Date: 06 Jan 14 - 08:28 PM

God I love mudcat!

Subject: RE: BS: Thatcher fibbed about coal mines!
From: MGM·Lion
Date: 07 Jan 14 - 02:21 AM

Next morning.

Yes, perhaps, looking back by the clear light of day, I did allow myself to get a bit hyperbolically annoyed. No, Jim, it wasn't drink or medication ~~ I have drunk no alcohol whatever for 12 years and take no pills or medicines. It was just that Mr McCormick & I are allergic to one another. Years ago, I objected to his having OPd a thread on the royal wedding with the statement that the very thought of it made him want to vomit; he took exception to my expressing the view that he was deficient in manners for saying so; and we have been unable to abide one another since. Whatever I post, however vanilla, he comes back with IMO an over-truculent overreaction (see eg his response to my first post above); I like a fool rise to the provocation; and Way O and away we go...

I hereby undertake to bring this sequence to a complete standstill by making a belated new year resolution to read no post with his name atop. I have no prescriptive rights over him, of course; but would just suggest he might be well advised to adopt a similar policy with regard to mine.

New Year Greetings to all

~Michael~

Subject: RE: BS: Thatcher fibbed about coal mines!
From: GUEST,Allan Conn
Date: 07 Jan 14 - 03:10 AM

"I could not find any mention of this in the English press/media and wonder if their silence was for the same reason."

What got me was that the then Scottish secretary (was it George Younger?) went along with the idea of hiding cuts from the Scottish people only objecting to how much was involved. Not because he objected to more being cut from the budget but because he gave a maximum figure which he felt could be cut without the other parties or the electorate detecting it. It then went to an argument because the gvt decided the amount should be much more than he recommended could be hidden. Talk about being underhanded and working against your own country!

Subject: RE: BS: Thatcher fibbed about coal mines!
From: Jim McLean
Date: 07 Jan 14 - 04:21 AM

Thank you, MtheGM .
Allan, yes it was George Younger, proving that Scottish Secretaries, than and now, are Westminster's men in Scotland, not Scotland's men in Westminster.

Subject: RE: BS: Thatcher fibbed about coal mines!
From: Richard Bridge
Date: 07 Jan 14 - 05:32 AM

The bitch Thatcher lied and lied again. Her right wing cronies in the press repeated the lies. They, somewhat like another regime a little before in another land, fooled the public. One at least of her cronies (now on the run from reparation, in another land, lying to the courts) was involved in a calculated gerrymander for electoral advantage.

Maybe now that some of the truth is coming out, some of the forces of oppression who conspired at Orgreave to cause the innocent to be convicted will also get their belated desserts.

It is also interesting to see that the slur that we have been fed for so many years, namely that Scargill's battle was hopeless, was also a lie and that the bitches pussies in the cabinet were indeed very close to having to impose a 3 day week - like the one that eventually brought down Heath.

Subject: RE: BS: Thatcher fibbed about coal mines!
From: GUEST,Fred McCormick
Date: 07 Jan 14 - 05:46 AM

Stilly River Sage. Thanks for the link. I shall order a copy directly I've posted this.

A though crossed my mind last night, and it should have crossed long before. Namely that if Thatcher and co lied to the country about the extent of proposed closures, they must also have lied to Parliament. As everyone who lives in this country knows, lying to Parliament is a very serious business. Serious enough to have shaken the entire government out of office.

Subject: RE: BS: Thatcher fibbed about coal mines!
From: Nigel Parsons
Date: 07 Jan 14 - 08:25 AM

lying to Parliament is a very serious business. Serious enough to have shaken the entire government out of office.
That doesn't seem to have worked for Blair, who told parliament that he had convincing proof of weapons of mass destruction!

Subject: RE: BS: Thatcher fibbed about coal mines!
From: Big Al Whittle
Date: 07 Jan 14 - 08:51 AM

What I never understood about Blair was his conversion to Catholicism. How could someone who apparently believed his immortal soul and judgement day tell such a bloodstained horrible lie. All my friends said I was a fool to believe him. I guess I was one of the ones with half a brain.

some of the reason I did believe him though was the vile dishonesty of the Thatcher years. It wasn't just the mines and manufacturing industry - it was education, the beggars on the street, the hard drugs industry taking a hold, the national curriculum, the inflammatory rhetoric on Northern Ireland, fund holding GP's and all the other right wing bullshit she festooned around our country - all the time with this phoney patriotism droning on in the background.

I couldn't see an alternative to Blair.

Subject: RE: BS: Thatcher fibbed about coal mines!
From: The Sandman
Date: 07 Jan 14 - 08:53 AM

m gm FACTS PLEASE.

Subject: RE: BS: Thatcher fibbed about coal mines!
From: MGM·Lion
Date: 07 Jan 14 - 09:00 AM

Facts about what, Dick? Sorry, but the only fact I have for you is that I have not the remotest idea what you are on about.

Hppy New Year

~Michael~

Subject: RE: BS: Thatcher fibbed about coal mines!
From: MGM·Lion
Date: 07 Jan 14 - 09:02 AM

ie Happy -- not Hippy: tho that too if you like...

Subject: RE: BS: Thatcher fibbed about coal mines!
From: GUEST,Fred McCormick
Date: 07 Jan 14 - 10:11 AM

Nigel. I'm not making any excuses for Blair, but I recall that he told Parliament that Intelligence had led him to believe there were WMDs in Iraq. Hence he could claim that he had not knowingly misled anyone. Yes, I know, the buck stops here.........

But what defence could Thatcher have pulled out of the hat over the mines? "Nobody told me the real figure was 75 pits. I thought we were only going to close 20." Eh come on. Are you in charge of this country or what?

Subject: RE: BS: Thatcher fibbed about coal mines!
From: The Sandman
Date: 07 Jan 14 - 03:06 PM

MGM,are you a bigger booby than you are a bounder, I am refrring to Facts to illustrate that thatcher was more popular than scargill, with whom?, please be more specific, obviously Margaret was more popular with her family than Scargill was.

Subject: RE: BS: Thatcher fibbed about coal mines!
From: MGM·Lion
Date: 07 Jan 14 - 05:06 PM

Why, the nation elected her twice more after she had got the better of him, as I have already remarked in that particular exchange with Mr You-Know-Who (6 Jan 0926 am).

What on earth are you doing, raking up that particular exchange at this time of day, Dick? We seem to me to have progressed far beyond that. Being a bit dozy [& a bit obsessive] aren't you? What's rocking your boat then, for crying out loud -- or, to mix the metaphor a bit, getting your knickers in such a twist? 'Booby'? 'Bounder'? Not like you to turn abusive & immoderate when you have been misunderstood for not expressing yourself clearly. Honestly, Dick: take a look at yourself. Cool it for crying out loud, before you do yourself an injury, or say something you'll regret.

Best

~M~

Subject: RE: BS: Thatcher fibbed about coal mines!
From: The Sandman
Date: 07 Jan 14 - 07:21 PM

but Michael How many people voted for her party in each election after as you put it "she got the better of him", and how many voted for the other 2 parties, was her election due to her overall popularity, or was it the nature of the electoral system, example in the 1983 election, Popular vote conservatives         13,012,316 labour        8,456,934 sdp alliance liberals        7,780,949 more people voted for the other two main parties than the conservatives.
same thing in 1987 election here
conservatives
13,760,935         – 0.2
        Labour         633         229         26         6         + 20         35.2         10,029,270         + 3.2
        SDP–Liberal Alliance         633         22         5         6         –           7,341,65
one can conclude from that that more people voted for the other 2 parties than her party,that is how the electoral system divides and rules, it shows that more people did not want her as prime minister that actually wanted her.

Subject: RE: BS: Thatcher fibbed about coal mines!
From: MGM·Lion
Date: 08 Jan 14 - 12:43 AM

Oh, come on, Dick. We have had innumerable discussions over the years on these threads about how our constituency-based electoral system never produces a statistical majority government ~~ but literally never: I don't think a single instance was ever produced in argument, the nearest being the post WWii Labour lot which that fool Cripps ruined and brought down in short order at the next-but-one election, which had a nearly 50% showing in overall election votes cast nationwide. That just happens to be how our electoral system works, and any referendum, or other sort of attempt to replace it with PR or whatever, has failed every time. I could produce statistics similar to yours above to prove that "one can conclude from that that more people voted for the other 2 parties than [his] party,that is how the electoral system divides and rules, it shows that more people did not want [insert name of any British PM] as prime minister than actually wanted [him]".

I know this. You know this, for all your saying. You asked for facts. I gave you facts. I appreciate they were facts uncongenial to those on your side of the political spectrum; but facts they are nevertheless. So just accept them as such, please; and stop being so silly. You are making a fool of yourself in your endeavours to prove the unprovable. The main FACT, little as you may like it, is that, until she cocked up over the Council Tax, Margaret Thatcher was probably the most popular PM overall in British history, and her election record demonstrates it. Sorry if this meets with the disapproval of the great and distinguished Richard Miles. But such, as any unbiased observer must observe, are the FACTS.

BTW, re ollaimh's post above - Those like Richard who use 'bitch' of her, which assonates so well with 'Thatcher', always seem to me to adopt a tone of "hur-hur slurp" as they do so that always gives me the impression that they are typing it one-handed: it really does seem to do it for them in the oddest fashion!

Now please be quiet, Dick, before you make yourself look even sillier.

Best wishes

~M~

Subject: RE: BS: Thatcher fibbed about coal mines!
From: MGM·Lion
Date: 08 Jan 14 - 12:54 AM

I should, of course, have written Poll Tax rather than Council Tax.

Subject: RE: BS: Thatcher fibbed about coal mines!
From: MGM·Lion
Date: 08 Jan 14 - 01:42 AM

Though I should, I suppose, add for fairness that, as well as being IMO the most popular PM in my recollection, she was also simultaneously the most hated by other sections of the populace. Has any ever polarised opinion quite so sharply, I wonder? -- as demonstrated by the ∞-ty of threads about her, on this and pretty well every other forum, which, as we see right here, are still ongoing well over 20 years after she left office. Her impact, however one might view her personality, deeds, & achievements, is surely undeniable.

~M~

Subject: RE: BS: Thatcher fibbed about coal mines!
From: GUEST,Allan Conn
Date: 08 Jan 14 - 02:32 AM

Didn't Blair at one point have approval ratings higher than any other post war PM had? In the end his ratings dropped to one of the most unpopular PMs ever but still not as low as Thatcher's ratings dropped to.

Subject: RE: BS: Thatcher fibbed about coal mines!
From: GUEST,Allan Conn
Date: 08 Jan 14 - 02:42 AM

Funnily enough In Scotland for General Elections there has only ever been one party manage to obtain over 50% of the vote - and that was the Conservatives in the 1950s. Kind of dispels the myth that little more than a generation or so later Scotland was somehow programmed to be anti-Conservative. It maybe is kind of that way now but that is because of the policies of the Thatcher-Major gvts. They weren't so unpopular because they were Tories it was more the Tories became so unpopular because of them.

Subject: RE: BS: Thatcher fibbed about coal mines!
From: Jim McLean
Date: 08 Jan 14 - 04:44 AM

Even then, Allan, the Scottish vote didn't change the finally elected Westminster government. In 1950, Labour had a majority of 5 and without the Scottish vote there would still have been a Labour government with a majority of 2: in 1951, Conservative majority of 17, without Scotland majority of 16: 1955, Coservative majority 60, without Scotland majority 61: 1959, Coservative majority 100, without Scotland it would have been 109 so in effect since 1945, actually, Scottish MPs have never turned what would have been a Conservative government into a Labour one or vice versa.
In 1964 and in 1974 Scottish MPs have given Labour a majority they wouldn't have had from England/Wales/NI alone but it wouldn't have changed the elected government as Labour was the largest party and it would have gone to a hung parliament.
In the 2010 election Scotland sent 41 Labour MPs, out of 59, but we still got a Conservative led government, so to sum up, the Scottish vote, whether overwhelmingly Conservative or Labour makes no difference to the government in Westminster.

Subject: RE: BS: Thatcher fibbed about coal mines!
From: The Sandman
Date: 08 Jan 14 - 04:56 AM

m the g m,how can she be popular when more people voted against her than for her, yes and that goes for every other post war prime minister, regardless of party, there is nothing silly about that.

Subject: RE: BS: Thatcher fibbed about coal mines!
From: MGM·Lion
Date: 08 Jan 14 - 05:24 AM

I wasn't going by ratings solely, Allan,

[nor by numbers, Dick -- do you really think then that there is nothing to choose between the popularity/unpopularity of any PMs, based purely on the consideration that none has ever enjoyed a numerical majority of the electorate as a whole? if so, then you are still being silly, I fear -- if you can't see where or why or how, then I just leave you to it]

but by my recollection of people's reactions in every day intercourse. People like decorators who came to paint the house, people one would get into chat with on trains ... so many such: wish I had a pound for everyone I met at the time who said, "Don't care what anyone says, I think she's great." There was an atmosphere of cheerfulness and patriotic pride around which I do not recall having sensed quite like that before or since. The Falklands had much to do with it; she stood her ground, committed us, and won; and before anyone starts going on about the bloody Belgrano, just remember the proverb about what he who fights & runs away does. I appreciate that things will have been different in other parts of the country; but even that didn't prevent her repeated re-election, and her having served the longest continuous time in office since I can't recall when: certainly not in the lifetime of anyone I knew; did it? Hubris overcame her eventually; everyone can get over-confident & make a misjudgment -- in her case, as I say, over the Poll Tax. But, until then...

~M~

Subject: RE: BS: Thatcher fibbed about coal mines!
From: GUEST,Fred McCormick
Date: 08 Jan 14 - 06:02 AM

MtheGM. I have no desire to be dragged into yet another round of stupid insults from you. However, the Belgrano was outside the British imposed 200 mile exclusion zone, and sailing away from said zone when she was fired on by the British with a loss of over 300 lives. If that doesn't constitute an international war crime, I don't know what does.

If you choose to respond to this missive, could you please do so without the usual farrago of insults and idiotic baby talk?

Subject: RE: BS: Thatcher fibbed about coal mines!
From: Nigel Parsons
Date: 08 Jan 14 - 06:33 AM

how can she be popular when more people voted against her than for her, yes and that goes for every other post war prime minister, regardless of party, there is nothing silly about that.
Yes, more voted agaist her than for her,
But more voted for her than voted for any other person. (or, at least, voted for their local Conservative candidate)

Subject: RE: BS: Thatcher fibbed about coal mines!
From: Nigel Parsons
Date: 08 Jan 14 - 06:42 AM

100

Subject: RE: BS: Thatcher fibbed about coal mines!
From: GUEST,Allan Conn
Date: 08 Jan 14 - 07:00 AM

"But more voted for her than voted for any other person. (or, at least, voted for their local Conservative candidate)"

I think that says it all really. People also vote based on party or local candidate and not necessarily only on who is the party leader. Plus of course for at least part of her tenure she didn't have much opposition as Labour was in disarray. I seem to remember Blair was pretty unpopular by the time of his last election victory yet the party still won.