A boring place

Subject: RE: A boring place
From: GUEST
Date: 15 Apr 14 - 09:45 AM

Facts are stubborn things, but statistics are more pliable.

Mark Twain

Subject: RE: A boring place
From: MGM·Lion
Date: 15 Apr 14 - 09:43 AM

To clarify my comment as to the 'relativism' of your position, Jim: at 0326am you wrote of "individuals who are prepared to spend time and effort advocating for their own particular brand of persecution. In the past, the target for their hate campaigns have been Muslims and gays": as if there were some sort of equivalence between these two groups. My point is that objection to any sort of personally chosen sexual practice which differs from that of the objector is IMO [as well as in yours] irrational and regrettable. "Muslims" otoh, as I remark above, present, and represent, an entirely different kind of case. I do not think their acknowledged aims are such as can be pursued without entirely unacceptable degrees of friction and mutual hostility within the traditional parameters of our community, and it is injudicious to pretend otherwise and to try and accommodate co-existence of the two systems within one society. This seems to me an entirely rational statement of fact, not of prejudice, at least worthy of consideration and rational response, and not simply to be denounced as "racism", or as any sort of "persecution".

~M~

Subject: RE: A boring place
From: Big Mick
Date: 15 Apr 14 - 09:32 AM

Your honor, the prosecution rests its case.

Subject: RE: A boring place
From: Jim Carroll
Date: 15 Apr 14 - 09:28 AM

Sorry Mike - thought I had apologised before and explained, Islam is not a race - "All male Pakistanis" is - if you got hit by my buckshot - again, I apologise - not intended for you in that respect.
When push comes to shove, there isn't a great deal of difference between Islamophobia (or any attack on any religion) and racism when it comes to the effect it has on the recipient - but surely not the place to discuss it here.
Personally I find the mixture of religion and political influence (again, whatever religion) fairly threatening - but it is the influence I find disturbing, not any particular religion.
I am struck by the similarity of the present attempts of Muslim attempts to infiltrate Birmingham schools, and similar attempts by The B.N.P., the National Front, and other extremist groups to influence children via leafleting outside schools and by having members of these organisations holding school positions.
I am also struck by the level of reaction to both.
What I would have thought we all wish to avoid is the actions of extremist groups reflecting on entire communities.
Jim Carroll

Subject: RE: A boring place
From: MGM·Lion
Date: 15 Apr 14 - 08:52 AM

Jim: I didn't take your comments as aimed at me this time, but they have sometimes been so in the past. In particular, I posted two comments on my view of the possibly baleful influence of Islamism on the 'Unarmed Soldier' thread in June 2013, which IIRC you called 'racist' at the time; although, as I pointed out then and do so again now, Islam is not 'a race' in any meaningful sense, but rather a faith-based philosophy which enjoins certain responsibilities, which many find incompatible with the traditional values of our own society, on its adherents, who are of a variety of entirely discrete races. My position has not shifted since then; so I fail to understand your 'nonplus' as to my position.

~M~

Subject: RE: A boring place
From: Ed T
Date: 15 Apr 14 - 08:02 AM

It's more like a Manx cat chasing its tale

Subject: RE: A boring place
From: Keith A of Hertford
Date: 15 Apr 14 - 07:54 AM

Musket, I would never defend a bigot or any bigotry.
Jim, no-one has ever told you to refrain from discussing any country's politics, and for the record all your usual accusations are groundless.

Subject: RE: A boring place
From: Dave the Gnome
Date: 15 Apr 14 - 07:52 AM

You have restored my faith in 'catters. Thanks Martin :-)

DtG

Subject: RE: A boring place
From: MartinRyan
Date: 15 Apr 14 - 07:31 AM

'Cat chasing its tale again?

I really do hope that pun was intended :-)

DtG
-----------------------------------

It was...

Regards

Subject: RE: A boring place
From: Musket
Date: 15 Apr 14 - 07:19 AM

I'm going to go at bigots and try to ridicule them. I am going to go at homophobes and try to give them nowhere to go in order to save face.

Carry on defending them Keith and I will carry on tarring you with their brush.

You have no right whatsoever over and above a first time poster for anything whatsoever.

Live with that fucker whilst you are at it. You horrible little man.

Subject: RE: A boring place
From: Jim Carroll
Date: 15 Apr 14 - 06:49 AM

"I wonder if some of you can't post without going after another individual."
I have made a point of not doing that her Jeri - I fully understand the damage it can do, largely because of my own stupidity in doing exactly what you describe.
That is why I am trying to confine my remarks to specific issues and not who raised them
Mike
None of my comments have been deliberately aimed at you - quite honestly, my estimation of your own position in all this leaves me somewhat nonplussed
Jim Carroll

Subject: RE: A boring place
From: MGM·Lion
Date: 15 Apr 14 - 06:36 AM

Not all that much at odds, Jim, on this occasion. I don't disagree with much of what you say. My point was simply that suspicion of some sections of the community's motivations may not always be racist; but it tends, in my observation, to be your reaction that it is likely to be so: eg the 'their', last word on line 8 of your post above of 0326 am, has occasionally included me when I have simply been referring to no more than such as that Times/last·night's·tv·news report.

~M~

Subject: RE: A boring place
From: Jeri
Date: 15 Apr 14 - 06:33 AM

I wonder if some of you can't post without going after another individual.

This is a US based site, and some things are different. What you call "incitement to hatred" is often what we call "stating an unpopular opinion". Our definition of "race" is basted on genetics and not country of origin. The "English", for example, are not considered a race because some are white, some are Black, Asian... etc.

Subject: RE: A boring place
From: Jim Carroll
Date: 15 Apr 14 - 06:23 AM

This really is a matter of opinion Mike
We are all prone to prejudices, but when it comes as long as often and as all-encompassing as it has over the last few years it becomes more than an occasional lack of concentration; rather a conscious campaign.
As I have said, some of the statements would breach the laws of incitement to racial hatred.
The fact that they now effect contributors of this form have really done it for me.
I was aware of contents the reported Times article last night when it appeared on the news.
It still does not excuse accusations of "cultural implants" made against over one million British citizens, as has been made by a member of this forum - that is the stuff the B.N.P. peddles.
And none of this has anything to do with being told you can't comment on British politics unless you are a resident, or you have no right to express an opinion if you haven't passes some sort of probationary period.
I genuinely am sorry to find myself at odds with you again.
Jim Carroll

Subject: RE: A boring place
From: MGM·Lion
Date: 15 Apr 14 - 05:53 AM

Jim: You mean well, but you are such a relativist that you regard any negative comment about any cultural tradition as ipso facto racist. As Ira Gershwin observed, it ain't necessarily so. There are in existence proselytising cultures who freely acknowledge that their object is to convert the rest of the world to their way of thinking. It is not racist to point out that this is the case, and to draw attention to the possible undesirability of affording them too ready a platform for their activities. We have disagreed on this matter before and will doubtless do so again. But I am sure you will appreciate where I am coming from, and which of the catalogue of victims of aggression you have instanced in your recent posts I have in mind. Note, in this connection, the enquiry just formed, reported in this morning's press, to look into certain influences alleged to be infiltrating certain schools in certain areas. You will find it prominently reported on p6 of this morning's Times, for instance.

~M~

Subject: RE: A boring place
From: Jim Carroll
Date: 15 Apr 14 - 05:30 AM

"we will inform you when your probationary period has been served satisfactorily young Jim."
Please do Al
As somebody who has told I am not eligible to comment on British politics because I have chosen to live in Ireland, I am beginning to wonder how longer and how far this behaviour is going to be tolerated.
I have made sure my passport is up-to-date, now I'm thinking I should get a copy of my birth certificate
Jim Carroll

Subject: RE: A boring place
From: Big Al Whittle
Date: 15 Apr 14 - 05:13 AM

we will inform you when your probationary period has been served satisfactorily young Jim.

Subject: RE: A boring place
From: Jim Carroll
Date: 15 Apr 14 - 04:58 AM

"Who asked you to ride in here and denounce people who have been here for years?"
I hadn't realised that there was a probationary period for expressing views on Mudcat - live and learn
Jim Carroll

Subject: RE: A boring place
From: Big Al Whittle
Date: 15 Apr 14 - 04:48 AM

Derek Brimstone used to have this schtick before doing his banjo spot....this was written by cousin the great Ezra |Maddox junior . he was a hillbilly....the least prejudiced man I ever knew....Jews, Catholics, Black people, students, politicians, limeys....he hated them all equally.

Subject: RE: A boring place
From: Joe Offer
Date: 15 Apr 14 - 04:39 AM

"Challenging" and "attacking" are two different words (and two different tactics), Musket. I prefer the former.

-Joe-

Subject: RE: A boring place
From: Keith A of Hertford
Date: 15 Apr 14 - 04:33 AM

You see bigotry where there is none.
Who asked you to ride in here and denounce people who have been here for years?
We liked things as they were thank you.
Go and save someone else please.

Subject: RE: A boring place
From: Musket
Date: 15 Apr 14 - 04:25 AM

Respect is a very very subjective word Joe. You occasionally snap, I snap much sooner. You and I agree on some things and not others. Some are open to debate, some are deep rooted and not liable to review on the basis of a bloke on the internet.

However, respect for a post by someone on the basis of expectation of respecting a member's right to express a view is somewhat complicated. If that view is demeaning to people, regardless of whether they are on Mudcat or not, will be challenged. By me, by you, by anyone who doesn't share their view.

That Mudcat has enough members to have a wide spectrum of views is wonderful. Those who see others as inferior or worse still, don't see their bigotry as insulting are part of that spectrum. And so are those who would challenge it.

The folk movement is founded on propagating awareness of knowing what is wrong, challenging it and dreaming of a utopia where society has moved on from fear, distrust, bigotry and hate.

Rather ironic that so many here say "let them have their say." I say fuck 'em but that's just me. I'm sure the same people will wish me to have my say too.......

Subject: RE: A boring place
From: Joe Offer
Date: 15 Apr 14 - 04:15 AM

I think it's a matter of respect. If there isn't respect in an interchange of ideas, fruitful discussion is impossible. I know that on a number of subjects, I will be vehemently attacked if I express what I think. And often I'm attacked for what people think I think, before I'm even allowed to express myself. I can't just throw out an idea for discussion, because so many people here are in "attack mode." They cannot seem to be able to disagree in a nonaggressive manner - and that makes it well-nigh impossible for those of us with gentler natures. They are able to see discussion only as combat, never as a peaceful exchange.

-Joe-

Subject: RE: A boring place
From: akenaton
Date: 15 Apr 14 - 03:35 AM

Most people like the posts of people they AGREE with.
I dont agree with everything Stringsinger says, but always compliment him when he says something reasonable, even when it runs contrary to my own general point of view.
On the ranters, cursers, stalkers,ideologists,.....I laugh at their insults, they illustrate the paucity of their ability to reason. I'm sure GfS and Keith feel the same.

I'm happy for their nonsense to be left in place, but I do fear for the forum if every thread is to be filled with abusive childishness, or dated Goon Show humour.

Subject: RE: A boring place
From: Joe Offer
Date: 15 Apr 14 - 03:33 AM

I can't imagine what "legitimate axe" Shambles had to grind, Bert - I just put a limit on his posting multiple copies of the same post, and never deleted anything of his unless it was an exact copy of something he had previously posted. Whatever the case, he left "forever" on his own accord, and then came back as a guest and posted regularly without interference until he just drifted away.

-Joe-

Subject: RE: A boring place
From: Jim Carroll
Date: 15 Apr 14 - 03:26 AM

I had every intention of staying away from this thread, and that remains my intention, but I am posting this, which is a statement I have just posted on the "Different way to speak about persecution" thread.
I was prompted to do s there because the OP has expressed qualms about what hass happened to his thread, and is suggesting that he should never have opened it, which, I believe is a shame.
Jim Carroll

"I shouldn't have started the thread, that is clear enough"
I really can't see why Mac - if you are right, any discussion on persecution is a no-go area because it will stir up a hornet's nest.
I believe that this Forum has been targeted by a tiny number of individuals who are prepared to spend time and effort advocating for their own particular brand of persecution.
In the past, the target for their hate campaigns have been Muslims and gays, now it has spilled over to include the Irish.
Some of the statements made, recently and in the past, would be illegal under Britain's incitement race and sectarian hate laws and would be liable to prosecution, had they not been made within the safety of the social network.
This is essentially a music site which should be capable of attracting contributors from all cultures - if I were a Muslim, I doubt if I would come anywhere near Mudcat following some of the comments on that culture that are continually being made.
My roots are Irish; I have recently been provoked into a fury by comments made against Irish and Irish American people.
These are a form of persecution in themselves and they have now been directed against members of this forum.   
The statement in your opening posting was an extremely moving and apposite one, but like many others, it has become bogged down in squabbles involving individuals rather than issues.
If postings like yours cannot be made, then all such views become taboo, and this handful of extremists will have won - I'm not prepared to see that happen without voicing my misgivings about what I believe to be happening.
Jim Carroll

Subject: RE: A boring place
From: The Sandman
Date: 15 Apr 14 - 02:24 AM

I miss Diane Easby, aka Borchester Echo, I miss Jean Richie.I always enjoy stringsingers posts.

Subject: RE: A boring place
From: frogprince
Date: 14 Apr 14 - 10:06 PM

"I have already given you a list of folks that quit coming because of people with your attitude, quite frankly. I could easily list many more." Big Mick

"you will hear me challenge you to prove that your assertion is true. I don't think you can, because it just isn't."

I personally know people who have stated that reason for bailing out here. I can assure you that that is true for others here too. But we are all wrong, because it is impossible for Steve Shaw to be wrong about anything.

Subject: RE: A boring place
From: Bert
Date: 14 Apr 14 - 09:36 PM

Sometimes I wonder how we got rid of poor old Shambles, who had a legitimate axe to grind, but kept several other obnoxious folk around.

Subject: RE: A boring place
From: Big Mick
Date: 14 Apr 14 - 09:22 PM

Actually, Steve, I shut it down because the only thing happening was the BBOP's were getting redundant in their worn out justifications for being obnoxious, arrogant asses. As to your pathetic challenge, it isn't necessary to prove what is apparent. You seek to challenge me, but I am not the issue. You have heard from any number of people who remember when this was a place people liked to visit. I have already given you a list of folks that quit coming because of people with your attitude, quite frankly. I could easily list many more.

Please ... Keep justifying yourself. You make the case so well.

Subject: RE: A boring place
From: Steve Shaw
Date: 14 Apr 14 - 08:17 PM

By the way, this...

Or, if a gentle person tries to explain why he believes in creation

...must be the most naive remark I've ever read here. If the poster actually believes what he typed, of course.

Subject: RE: A boring place
From: Steve Shaw
Date: 14 Apr 14 - 07:27 PM

they have created an atmosphere that drives thoughtful, funny, creative people to other places. Now, having said that in support of others that remember better times, let's just set back and watch them howl.

Hmm. Well you won't hear me howl, but you will hear me challenge you to prove that your assertion is true. I don't think you can, because it just isn't. People leave forums for all manner of reasons. Boredom would be a numero uno candidate, or drifting interests, or just their life moving on. You are inventing a stick to beat your would-be howlers that is a complete illusion, and a pretty disingenuous one at that. And, while I'm addressing you, I note how you diminished yourself by having a snide last word then immediately shutting down your own rather embarrassing thread. Bet you and your golden-age mates didn't do that sort of thing in the good ol' days! Cop yerself on, Big Bro!

Subject: RE: A boring place
From: pdq
Date: 14 Apr 14 - 03:41 PM

"I would also point that some of the worst offenders are people whose issue I agree with. ~ an assistant to the Moderator


That is precisely why these turds are allowed to post here with impunity.

They say what the staff want said but allow them not to get the shit splattered on themselves.

Subject: RE: A boring place
From: Big Al Whittle
Date: 14 Apr 14 - 02:21 PM

Musket, old bean, you just called Keith a fool.

of course there are racists and homophobes on mudcat and everywhere else. keith takes them too seriously. nothing he writes on mudcat is likely to convert them into nice people. plus -some racists and homophobes and serial murderers are nice people. jus they have this tendency to indulge in homphobic racist and homicidal behaviour.

i remember one time a guy called Divis, from northern Ireland claimed some sort of connection with people who had shot and murdered English soldiers in NI. and of course some yanks , who would have frothed at the mouth if you used the word nigger, thought shooting brits ...well bad form, but entirely understandable. racism is a funny thing.

Anyway Keith was going crazy at this guy for months - and finally he pissed off. and I kind of missed him. I remember Oliver who went under the name Ard Mcha reckoned Divis was a fantasist - and because of my rather scatty sense of humour that I was a bit anti irish.

so what I say is this - don't make a fuss if someone says something that repels you. you joined the internet to meet other people. have they all got to be mr.normal with 2,3 kids and a job and a wife and car. treasure the diversity of the people you meet on mudcat.

Subject: RE: A boring place
From: Big Mick
Date: 14 Apr 14 - 02:18 PM

I would also point that some of the worst offenders are people whose issue I agree with. But they are so obsessed with the person taking the other side that they just rant on, in some cases, for years. As was said above, I get it already. No need to post these incredibly long rants. At some point just agree to disagree and move on.

Subject: RE: A boring place
From: Keith A of Hertford
Date: 14 Apr 14 - 01:14 PM

Musket, there are no real homophobes or racists here.
No bigots either.
You are just attacking harmless windmills and pretending you are facing evil giants.

Subject: RE: A boring place
From: Dave the Gnome
Date: 14 Apr 14 - 11:51 AM

Out of interest, take a peek at the tail end of the 'HIV' thread to see how it has developed. Skip the 950 earlier posts. Just look at the last bit. Maybe if we could only argue by linking musical versions of our ideas the world may not become a better place but it would be more entertaining :-)

DtG

Subject: RE: A boring place
From: Ebbie
Date: 14 Apr 14 - 11:25 AM

Hast Sie lost her mind? lol

Subject: RE: A boring place
From: GUEST,leeneia
Date: 14 Apr 14 - 11:19 AM

Bitte, wenn sie die Worter finden, fangen Sie ein neues Thread an mit "Lyric Add' usw.

(Meanwhile, Spellcheck is losing its mind.)

Subject: RE: A boring place
From: GUEST,leeneia
Date: 14 Apr 14 - 11:13 AM

Man hort 'Ellacombe' hier:

http://www.hymntime.com/tch/htm/a/r/i/arisetki.htm

Danke sehr.

Subject: RE: A boring place
From: Dave the Gnome
Date: 14 Apr 14 - 11:11 AM

'Cat chasing its tale again?

I really do hope that pun was intended :-)

The other thing I will add is that in the 'good old days' there were at least 2 people that I know of, possibly more, who were banned from the forum. Now, it may be false logic and I am more than happy to be enlightened, but that seems to indicate one of the following things

1. There were nastier people in the past or
2. The place is not really as bad as some people are making out.

I believe it is the later as I cannot accept that people have changed that much.

The only other option I can think of is that Mudcat moderation is now much more tolerant but, as at least one of the moderators is making the same complaint I cannot really figure out what is going on there :-(

Sorry, just my 2p worth.

Cheers

DtG

Subject: RE: A boring place
From: GUEST,leeneia
Date: 14 Apr 14 - 11:10 AM

Guten Tag, Leadbelly.

Vielleicht hiflen Sie mir with einem Lied. Hier in America gibt es ein berumptes Kirchenlied,"Ellacombe". Es stimmt aus dem Buch von X.L. Hartig welches "Melodien zum Mainzer Gesangbuche" heisst (gedruckt 1833.)

Bitte, finden Sie mir die deutsche Worter bei "Ellacombe."

In einer Moment gebe ich Ihr ein Link.

Subject: RE: A boring place
From: Musket
Date: 14 Apr 14 - 10:54 AM

I can't work out whether those who use Mudcat as an outlet for their bigotry or those who stand up to them are responsible for property prices in the city centre here?

Were there no people dismissing whole sections of society in their funny creative thoughtful way, or were there no people stopping them?

Some of the people you mention who have drifted are on record for being rather outspoken against intolerance and hate inspired philosophy.

Yes, I am sure Mudcat can be fun. It is! Plenty of threads both sides of the line are fun. Many are thoughtful. Sure, the odd bar fight spills over into the street where people are congregating, but wallowing in nostalgia isn't the way to address it. Moderation is, but whatever the rights and wrongs, there have been far too many examples of odious crap remaining whilst people who challenge it get their challenges removed.

I mean, one fool has just stated that he knows of no homophobia or racism on these threads yet consistently supports the bigots spewing it and feeds them erroneous information to spur them on! Notwithstanding his own links to a UK based far right group that opposes gay marriage and multiculturalism.

Subject: RE: A boring place
From: Ebbie
Date: 14 Apr 14 - 10:52 AM

The aspects I tire of are the dead horse-beating kind. On the one hand I agree with those who feel that egregious nastiness should not go unchallenged. On the other, having once challenged it, most of us are not going to change our minds nor are we changing anyone else's.   If the first round of challenges doesn't convince us of an error in our thinking - and that does happen- it has happened to me - the second, fifth, or eighteenth round won't either. We are all adults here and we all cherish our beliefs rightly or wrongly.

Subject: RE: A boring place
From: GUEST,Ed T
Date: 14 Apr 14 - 10:41 AM

My past favorite post was a sure-fire cure for Athletes Foot - soak it in human urine. Now, who would have "thunk" of that? A challenge, can anyone guess who suggested it?:)

Subject: RE: A boring place
From: Big Mick
Date: 14 Apr 14 - 10:34 AM

That is the point I was making with the BBOP thread. I have no problem with intense debate of issues, that is the stuff that inspires folklore. I don't care one whit that certain envious people make the gratuitous assertion that there never was a golden age. Call it what you want, but there was a time when this place drew fascinating people, had creative threads that were insightful, educational, uproariously funny, and friendly. People like Jean Ritchie, Frank Hamilton, Arlo Gutherie, Rick Fielding, Art Thieme, Paul Mills, Grit Laskin, Ed Trickett, Gordon Bok, Sandy and Caroline Paton, Dan Milner came here and talked about the place as "the village I always wanted to live in" . It created a cross Atlantic, indeed a world wide, community of friends, even inspiring gatherings in several countries of guests from many places like Iceland, Great Britain, Ireland and Australia. On a personal note, I owe many of the most fascinating friendships and opportunities with artists great and small entirely to this place, and the friendships created in "the good old days". Suggestions that this group was somehow "exclusive" or "elite" are a load of crap. The only requirement for entry was to walk in and start posting. If anyone felt excluded, I am sorry for that, but would suggest it was more in your mind than anyone here. What made Mudcat the site it became was that it was welcoming, and a treasure grove of collective musical knowledge. It wasn't just music either. Recipes, jokes, hell you name the subject we probably covered it.

Today, as one poster noted, it suffers from entropy. The storefronts have for sale or let signs in the windows, and folks have moved to the suburbs, driven out by a small group of arrogant and nasty posters. This surly crew has not destroyed the place, they aren't that good, but they have created an atmosphere that drives thoughtful, funny, creative people to other places. Now, having said that in support of others that remember better times, let's just set back and watch them howl. We will all probably be accused of stalking because we expressed these opinions

Subject: RE: A boring place
From: Musket
Date: 14 Apr 14 - 10:14 AM

My memory seems to be going too.

I could have sworn Keith just said he wasn't aware of any racists or homophobes on Mudcat.

"The pack" being people who are dismayed at unchallenged bigotry masquerading as views.

zzzzzzzzzz

Subject: RE: A boring place
From: Megan L
Date: 14 Apr 14 - 10:08 AM

Jings Jacqui it just shows my memory must be going :) I could have sworn you were here when I joined in 2000.

Subject: RE: A boring place
From: jacqui.c
Date: 14 Apr 14 - 10:01 AM

I agree with Amos and Keith. What I find boring is the constant bickering that seems to take over so many threads, involving the same old crew every time. There WAS a time here that discussions did not always end up with name calling and nastiness and the few that actually did behave in that way were outweighed by those who enjoyed discussion and maybe learned from reading other points of view.

Over ten years ago Kendall and I connected on one such thread. I'm not sure, today, that either of us would have hung around long enough in such a thread, or, for that matter, have contributed to it. BS seems to have become a place where small minded people stalk each other and spew unpleasantness over what could be interesting discussions. This group seem to have no interest in learning anything and there seems to be no chance of their entrenched positions changing, so why bother keeping on? There must be some very unhappy souls out there, finding pleasure in the hostility that rears its head so often. I feel sorry for you guys, but I wish that you would take your crap somewhere else.

Jacqui Morse - member since around 2002.

Subject: RE: A boring place
From: Keith A of Hertford
Date: 14 Apr 14 - 09:16 AM

We have always had that kind of person, butI do not remember a pack of them before.

I am not aware of any racists or homophobes here, but the pack sees them.
They can just tell and, as Musket and Steve just told us, they think that makes it OK to go after them.

Or, if a gentle person tries to explain why he believes in creation.

Or if the most reasonable longstanding Mudcat member I can think of tries to discuss religious persecution, a week later he has to ask that his thread be closed.

There is a changed environment here now.