BS: Dead babies and Tuam Bon Secours nuns

Subject: RE: BS: Dead babies and Tuam Bon Secours nuns
From: GUEST,#
Date: 10 Jun 14 - 04:30 PM

We Didn't Know
Words and Music by Tom Paxton

We Didn't Know

We didn't know said the Burgomeister,
About the camps on the edge of town.
It was Hitler and his crew,
That tore the German nation down.
We saw the cattle cars it's true,
And maybe they carried a Jew or two.
They woke us up as they rattled through,
But what did you expect me to do?

[Cho:]
We didn't know at all,
We didn't see a thing.
You can't hold us to blame,
What could we do?
It was a terrible shame,
But we can't bear the blame.
Oh no, not us, we didn't know.

We didn't know said the congregation,
Singing a hymn in a church of white.
The Press was full of lies about us,
Preacher told us we were right.
The outside agitators came.
They burned some churches and put the blame,
On decent southern people's names,
To set our colored folk aflame.
And maybe some of our boys got hot,
And a couple of niggers and reds got shot,
They should have stayed where they belong,
The preacher would've told us if we'd done wrong.

[Cho:]

We didn't know said the puzzled voter,
Watching the President on TV.
I guess we've got to drop those bombs,
If we're gonna keep South Asia free.
The President's such a peaceful man,
I guess he's got some kind of plan.
They say we're torturing prisoners of war,
But I don't believe that stuff no more.
Torturing prisoners is a communist game,
And You can bet they're doing the same.
I wish this war was over and through,
But what do you expect me to do?

[Cho:]

From

http://www.mydfz.com/Paxton/lyrics/wdk.htm

Subject: RE: BS: Dead babies and Tuam Bon Secours nuns
From: Joe Offer
Date: 10 Jun 14 - 05:29 PM

Jim Carroll, I just don't understand what you are saying. Over and over again, you accuse me of having "resorted to dishonest evasion to defend the indefensible" - yet you refuse to cite any specific examples of my having done this. You simply repeat over and over again, your accusations that I deny the wrongdoing that has taken place in Ireland, and that I defend those who have done wrong.

I do deny the story about the 800 baby bodies in a septic tank in Tuam. The story is patently false, and serves only to distract from the truth of the systematic mistreatment of children in institutions in Ireland during the first half of the twentieth century.

I do not deny or defend what happened in the scandals of clerical child abuse, the Magdalene Laundries, the industrial schools, or the care homes. I do believe these matters must be studied truthfully, rationally, and without hysteria. Your distorted accusations against me show you have lost regard for the truth, and you are becoming increasingly irrational and hysterical. You've lost it, man.

---

Peter Laban, Church history is a sordid and fascinating tale, a very complex matter with no straight lines. Look back to the 16th century and ask yourself who had the most power in the Church in England. Was it Rome, or was it the King? What about in pre-revolution France? Remember that the popes were in Avignon 1309 to 1377. And toward the end of the Avignon Papacy, there were two or three popes at the same time for several years, and each pope answered to a different national power. And then we hear of the Spanish Inquisition of the late 15th century - note that a succession of Spanish Borgias sat on the throne in Rome at the time. For centuries, the papacy was usually held by whichever was the most powerful family in Europe at the time. No wonder there was a Reformation.

But it's more complicated that that. National churches paid better attention to Rome (or Avignon) when the Pope was "one of their own," and the pope usually answered to some more powerful party in his home country. There were also rich and powerful and fiercely independent monasteries scattered all over Europe, and they also weren't too good about answering to the Pope.

The Church cleaned up its act a bit after the Reformation, instituting reforms during the Council of Trent (1545-63). Trent is like Mecca for many current ultra-right Catholics who interpret its proclamations very rigidly, but it actually came out with a lot of very reasonable reforms. The Church in Rome became less and less important as a political entity. The Pope had held the Papal States in central Italy since the 700s, but lost control of all territory with the unification of Italy in 1870. A very interesting character was Pope Pius IX, the longest-reigning elected pope in the history of the Catholic Church (1846-78 - 32 years). While Pius IX lost control as a political ruler, he was quite effective in establishing control over religious matters. His First Vatican Council (1869-1870) decreed the much-misunderstood doctrine of Infallibility. While often referred to as "papal infallibility," the doctrine applies only to teachings - and only those that are at the highest level and are considered to be dogma.

Pius IX and the loss of the Papal States brought about what is sometimes referred to as the Cult of the Papacy - the belief in the Pope as the center of the faith of the Roman Catholic Church. Pius X (ruled 1903-1914) ranted against what he referred to as the heresy of Modernism, which a theology professor told us was a "list of things Pius X didn't like." From 1910 until 1967, Priests and certain others had to take an Oath Against Modernism, which did a lot to force at least some uniformity upon the Church.

Now, interestingly, the ones who now most loudly profess their loyalty to Rome, are the ultra-conservatives. Their loyalty is more to what they think Rome should be saying, rather than actual proclamations to the Vatican. The most powerful seat of ultra-conservative power is Opus Dei, which has its roots in Spain and has some interesting (and embarrassing) ties to the Franco Regime. Another is the Society of Saint Pius X, founded by Archbishop Marcel Lefebvre, who was excommunicated in 1988. Another is the Legionaries of Christ, founded in Mexico in 1941 by Marcial Maciel, a favorite of Pope John Paul II. Maciel was guilty of a long list of sexual and other improprieties, and was suspended from the priesthood in 2006.

The Catholics who are probably the ones most loyal to the Vatican are the Sedevacantists ("empty seat"). Despite their absolute belief in the authority of the Pope, they believe there has been no legitimate pope since the death of Pius XII in 1958.

So, Peter, my point in all this is that Rome doesn't have as firm a grip on the Catholic Church as one might think it has. The "local ordinary" (chief bishop) is the highest authority in a diocese, and it is near impossible to remove a sitting bishop. About the best the Vatican can do is ask an offending bishop to resign. The bishop has a right to refuse, and then the process of removal may go on until the bishop reaches mandatory retirement age. The national organizations of bishops are very strong in a few countries, and not so strong in some. The British were in power in Ireland until the early 1920s, but yet the Irish people were all Catholic. The best and brightest and most powerful sons and daughters of Ireland went into service of the Church. My theory is that this gave an inordinate amount of power to the bishops of Ireland, since for centuries the Irish had no government of their own to counter the power of the Church. And the Church remained powerful and independent after Irish independence. I don't know as much about the history of the Catholic Church in Ireland as I'd like to, but I do know that it is not a pretty story. But it is clear to me that the power of the Catholic Church in Ireland has always been held by Irish sons of Irish mothers, not by the Vatican.

-Joe Offer-

Subject: RE: BS: Dead babies and Tuam Bon Secours nuns
From: GUEST,mg
Date: 10 Jun 14 - 05:57 PM

When one can unentangle the relationship between the Irish sons who go on to become priests ad Irish mothers, one will understand the church in Ireland, and pretty much in America. It often seems way to be unhealthily entertwined...emotionally unhealthy, son fulfilling some of the aspects that should be the father..mother pushing father away for fear of another pregnancy, father turning to drink sometimes...mother son thing is very wierd sometimes and this has been heard from the pulpit..this totally unrealistic almost worship of the mother that no one else seems to have. What comes first, the chicken or the egg? I do not know. But it is part of what needs to be looked at. IF one puts one's mother on a pedestal, gives her retroactive virtues of chastity untained by marriage etc..how can one have a healthy view of marriage, mating in general etc.

Subject: RE: BS: Dead babies and Tuam Bon Secours nuns
From: Joe Offer
Date: 10 Jun 14 - 06:14 PM

MG, it sounds like you're telling the life story of my troubled Irish pastor, who seems to sincerely believe that all priests are alcoholics. He has a lot of good qualities, but a lot of anger issues - and a lot of that anger has been directed at me over the last nine years. And yes, his father was a drinker. I think he's afraid of me because I have an annoying tendency to speak the truth. He's done everything in his power to push me out of the things I've done in the church for years, and has been known to refer to a class I teach as "Joe's fucking bible study."

Subject: RE: BS: Dead babies and Tuam Bon Secours nuns
From: Greg F.
Date: 10 Jun 14 - 06:42 PM

Sounds like a real prince Joe - and a great advertisement for Catholicism.

Subject: RE: BS: Dead babies and Tuam Bon Secours nuns
From: Joe Offer
Date: 10 Jun 14 - 07:07 PM

He's certainly a difficult case, Greg - but despite that, he can be very effective. I suppose it would be nice to have only perfect humans serve as priests - but perfect humans have an annoying habit of being very shallow. Does the Catholic Church need advertising, or is it better off dealing with reality? My relationship with this guy, despite profound difficulties, is actually quite productive.

-Joe-

Subject: RE: BS: Dead babies and Tuam Bon Secours nuns
From: Greg F.
Date: 10 Jun 14 - 09:03 PM

OK, then read "example" for "advertisement". And nobody- least of all me- expects "perfect" humans; I've never met one, Joe - have you?

Subject: RE: BS: Dead babies and Tuam Bon Secours nuns
From: Jim Carroll
Date: 11 Jun 14 - 02:26 AM

"Jim Carroll, I just don't understand what you are saying."
You have described criticism of the Catholic church, here and elsewhere, as 'propaganda', you have never, as far as I can see, accepted the role that the church AS AN ORGANISATION has had in all these cases, and you have attacked those of us who have pointed them out, as prejudiced bigots.
What seems obvious to me is that all of these affairs are a case of a Church with too much power and influence and the abuse of that power.
Many of my family are Catholics; virtually all of my friends and neighbours here are Catholics
I respect their beliefs, while not sharing them.
The vast majority of them I have spoken with feel that they have been betrayed - not by a "few rotten apples", but by the church itself.
I share that view is the extent of my 'bigotry' and 'prejudice'
Jim Carroll

Subject: RE: BS: Dead babies and Tuam Bon Secours nuns
From: GUEST,Musket
Date: 11 Jun 14 - 03:41 AM

Another way of removing a bishop is under arrest. Covering up and moving criminals on rather than informing the police of the alleged crime by his employees. That's how civilised society deals with crime so removing isn't quite as difficult as you think Joe.

Even now, even with the spotlight on the fitness of the church, the whisking off of Cardinal O 'Brien out of the reach of the Scottish police investigation of his abuse of boys questions this myth over the innocence of The Vatican. (Not forgetting his threats to excommunicate any catholic MSP who voted for gay marriage a few weeks before his hypocritical lifestyle was exposed.)

Subject: RE: BS: Dead babies and Tuam Bon Secours nuns
From: Joe Offer
Date: 11 Jun 14 - 03:43 AM

You, Mr. Carroll, are putting words in my mouth. You say, "you have never, as far as I can see, accepted the role that the church AS AN ORGANISATION has had in all these cases." I have always acknowledged The misdeeds were committed by Irish priests, nuns, and others involved in the operation of the institutions. Irish bishops and Irish Catholic religious orders were responsible for oversight of the work done in these institutions. And one would think that there must be Irish government officials who shared responsibility for oversight.

These things were not done under orders from the Vatican.

There is no doubt that what was done in these institutions was wrong, but people have used this tragedy and an excuse for a broad attack against the entire Catholic Church.

And this Tuam story was the most sensational, with people all over the world outraged that Catholic nuns had dumped 800 bodies into a septic tank. To many of them, the fact that it didn't happen, is immaterial.

-Joe Offer-

Subject: RE: BS: Dead babies and Tuam Bon Secours nuns
From: GUEST
Date: 11 Jun 14 - 04:26 AM

Joe, I'm just not buying that. Child abuse is endemic in this Church, in the case I was involved in in Belgium 800 cases were covered up by the circle immediately surrounding the Cardinal, a Papal instruction to cooperate with the team I formed has been ignored, this goes right to the top. I have firm evidence of it starting with Pope Leo XIII, and it continues. The tale is too big to write here, but my team includes a Belgian Supreme Court judge, technically in retirement, and Belgium's top corporate ethicist.

Your leaders have failed, and will bring you down too. I'm a Protestant and was very clearly jonahed into it, some intervention instantly forced my hand when I decided I wanted nothing of it. 'Im Upstairs (or wherever) still backed that Church then, but not now, I think. Not exery part is tainted, but because good men like you are doing nothing real to sort out the mess, you're allowing real evil to flourish in your midst.

Leo XIII's chief theological adviser was Cardinal Henri de Bonnechose. His confessor was Bishop Felix Billard, and Bishop Billard was clearly deeply involved in FUDOSI, the French satanic group who put the "naughty" into "nineties". This was the circle behind the Rennes le Chateau nonsense, blackmailing the Pope over his mistress and alchemical interests - interests, in passing, which may lie behind numerous child murders, from Ian Huntley at Soham to Gilles de Rais, the original Bluebeard.

I don't think matters have improved since.

Subject: RE: BS: Dead babies and Tuam Bon Secours nuns
From: Musket
Date: 11 Jun 14 - 04:51 AM

Joe Offer said we should wait for the full facts to come out. He then said it didn't happen.

A wee bit of consistency please Joe. To date, I read your posts because you give a perspective that may be less than objective, but is at least genuine. Believe me, on some threads around here, that alone is a welcome relief.

Whether it were 800 or just one, the evidence to date does seem to suggest that babies and young children were, for the crime of being born out of religious wedlock, starved to death and not given a burial in line with the religion that was complicit in their murder.

There is no sensationalism in that statement above. If one baby was tossed in a cesspit or septic tank, it was done by people whose superstition meant that you had to be buried in line with their rules in order to enjoy the jam tomorrow they promise their members. Callous isn't quite strong enough is it?

If we need to bandy around the numbers to ease collective conscience, I can live with that, but with no prejudice whatsoever as to the heinous crime itself. Stalin once said that a single death is a tragedy and a million deaths a statistic. Don't go all Stalinist on us eh? (He trained as a priest if my history books haven't been revised just yet...)

Folk singers wanting to wait for the official history to be written? Since when?

Subject: RE: BS: Dead babies and Tuam Bon Secours nuns
From: Joe Offer
Date: 11 Jun 14 - 05:39 AM

The 800-body story is just too sensational to let go of, huh, Musket?

I'm still convinced that a rational, balanced study is going to produce the most useful response. But go ahead and hold onto your hysteria. Must be hard to sustain such excitement about a 60-year-old event, so you guys must be using Viagra or something....

-Joe Offer-

Subject: RE: BS: Dead babies and Tuam Bon Secours nuns
From: MGM·Lion
Date: 11 Jun 14 - 05:53 AM

Joe: In all honesty & sobriety:-

can you really call it "hysteria" to be distressed by such things having occurred within living memory? 60 whole years ago, eh! My goodness; waywayway-back ~~ when I was an ancient in my 20s. Really longlonglongago history! Absolutely antediluvian!; so let's just fuggedaboutit, huh!

Surprised at you, Joe! Genuinely...

~M~

Subject: RE: BS: Dead babies and Tuam Bon Secours nuns
From: Ed T
Date: 11 Jun 14 - 06:43 AM

I came across this account with a Google search. It may add some historic perspective?

Catherine Corles  

Subject: RE: BS: Dead babies and Tuam Bon Secours nuns
From: Ed T
Date: 11 Jun 14 - 07:04 AM

"June 9, 2014 ,LONDON — The Roman Catholic archbishop of Dublin, regarded as among the most influential church leaders in England and Ireland, has added his voice to those calling for an urgent inquiry into the discovery of nearly 800 babies and children buried in a septic tank at Tuam, a home for unwed mothers in western Ireland."
Read more here: http://www.thestate.com/2014/06/09/3497456/irish-archbishop-adds-voice-to.html?sp=/99/132/#storylink=cpy




Irish archbishop adds voice to those calling for investigation 

Subject: RE: BS: Dead babies and Tuam Bon Secours nuns
From: Musket
Date: 11 Jun 14 - 08:17 AM

I think you'll find it's priests who have most requirement for Viagra when addressing ecclesiastical issues Joe...

Subject: RE: BS: Dead babies and Tuam Bon Secours nuns
From: Greg F.
Date: 11 Jun 14 - 08:36 AM

Must be hard to sustain such excitement about a 60-year-old event

Hmmmm - 60 year old event - like the Holocaust, ya mean, Joe?

Subject: RE: BS: Dead babies and Tuam Bon Secours nuns
From: akenaton
Date: 11 Jun 14 - 09:03 AM

On Ian's allegations of the "Catholic church starving children to death", I feel these remarks are simply conjecture.
In the 1920s and 30s in Ireland, starvation was everywhere, and how do we know the physical condition of every teenage mother who was admitted to these homes.
I am sure in those days, stillbirths and premature births must have been commonplace and had the undernourished babies survived into infancy, the treatment regimes and availability of effective drug therapy would have been nothing like we have at the present day.

Nothing is as simple as some would like us to believe.

On the abuse of boys, the Catholic Church and its celibacy rule has historically been a safe haven for male homosexuals, it is estimated that at least 30% of the priesthood are homosexual. The abuse was almost exclusively perpetrated by adult men on teenage boys, which would point to a sexual orientation factor coming into play.

Cardinal O'Brien's alleged crimes were not against boys, but young adult priests, which makes Cardinal Obrien a predatory male homosexual(if these allegations are proved)and a hypocrite, but not a paedophile.

Abuse can be stopped or reduced at a stroke by opening the priesthood to married men preferably with children......I hold the
Church to account for this rule which has caused untold damage.

Subject: RE: BS: Dead babies and Tuam Bon Secours nuns
From: Keith A of Hertford
Date: 11 Jun 14 - 09:24 AM

Not forgetting his threats to excommunicate any catholic MSP who voted for gay marriage a few weeks before his hypocritical lifestyle was exposed

Not remembering this at all Musket.

Subject: RE: BS: Dead babies and Tuam Bon Secours nuns
From: Musket
Date: 11 Jun 14 - 10:02 AM

"Safe haven for male homosexuals."

Fucking amazing. I truly am speechless.

Subject: RE: BS: Dead babies and Tuam Bon Secours nuns
From: akenaton
Date: 11 Jun 14 - 12:44 PM

Amazed Ian, did you not know that homosexuality used to be a crime?

The word "historically" is the clue.

Subject: RE: BS: Dead babies and Tuam Bon Secours nuns
From: Q (Frank Staplin)
Date: 11 Jun 14 - 01:02 PM

BBC News, 10 June, 2014- "deaths of almost 800 children..." Headline- "Babies born out of wedlock treated as inferior subspecies..."

Belfast Telegraph, 05 June 2014- "Archbishop of Tuam Michael Neary has told Bon Secours nuns that they have a moral obligation to engage with an examination of how 796 children died and were buried in a mass grave."
The Archbishop spoke of women "witnessing the death" of their babies.

Belfast Telegraph.co.uk/news, Wednesday, 11 June 2014

The ordered review "may include other homes around Ireland..."

I was going to leave this thread since it seems to be degenerating into condemnation of the Catholic Church and faith. I may be atheist, but singling out one Faith or government for what was widespread mistreatment of disadvantaged children by government as well as church-run institutions is wrong.

The story about 800 bodies seems to be accurate, not denied by the Archbishop or the government.

Subject: RE: BS: Dead babies and Tuam Bon Secours nuns
From: GUEST,#
Date: 11 Jun 14 - 01:25 PM

"The commonalities are church, state and populace: they all three deserve the blame in equal amounts. Silence on the part of any is a crime."

Second time lucky?

Subject: RE: BS: Dead babies and Tuam Bon Secours nuns
From: Greg F.
Date: 11 Jun 14 - 02:26 PM

I do deny the story about the 800 baby bodies in a septic tank in Tuam. The story is patently false

Looks like you were right, Joe - it wasn't 800 children. It was only 796. The relative numbers of those in the septic tank vs. those in unmarked graves don't mean squat overall.

See 5th parahraph here:
http://www.bbc.com/news/world-europe-27775763

Subject: RE: BS: Dead babies and Tuam Bon Secours nuns
From: Joe Offer
Date: 11 Jun 14 - 03:11 PM

Thanks for that link, Greg F. The BBC story is the most balanced, rational presentation of the Tuam home story that I've seen.

And it doesn't mention the term "septic tank" a single time. Not once.

There's no doubt in my mind that the problems of the mother-and-baby homes were numerous and widespread - and that the people responsible for these problems were almost all Catholic, probably mostly nuns and priests. I wonder if people in 1961 knew about these problems. Do you think that possibly that could be the reason why they closed the Tuam home in 1961?

To my mind, that problem has been resolved. There are no more mother-and-baby homes, or industrial schools, or Magdalene Laundries. The truth remains that these things happened and that the Catholic Church of Ireland was the major party responsible. That shame will live on forever.

I wonder, though, about the passion and vehemence of the response to these stories of what happened fifty years ago. Do these same people expend as much passion and energy on current injustices?

-Joe Offer-

Subject: RE: BS: Dead babies and Tuam Bon Secours nuns
From: MGM·Lion
Date: 11 Jun 14 - 03:26 PM

The story has only recently surfaced, Joe, for heavens sake. Of course it is found stressful. I am afraid you are reminding me irresistibly of the old joke, that I have never found all that hilarious at that, about the Jew and the Irishmen who had been friends for years, until one day Patrick punched Moishe on the nose. "What was that for?" demanded the astonished Mo. "The Jews killed Jesus," Paddy replied. "But that was over 2000 years ago," Mo protested. "Maybe," sez Pat, "but I've only just heard about it!"

We've all only just heard about it, Joe; why is how long ago it happened supposed to condition our horrified response?

~M~

Subject: RE: BS: Dead babies and Tuam Bon Secours nuns
From: Ed T
Date: 11 Jun 14 - 03:47 PM

"it is estimated that at least 30% of the priesthood are homosexual"

As a courtesy, it would be nice to see a source, when such dark figures are put forward on an organization to which some mudcat folks are associated. Without it, "an estimate" could be as sketchy as a couple of tipsy guys throwing around blind guesses at a pub (hardly worth repeating). If it is valid research, why not share the information, for people to consider for themselves?

Subject: RE: BS: Dead babies and Tuam Bon Secours nuns
From: GUEST,mg
Date: 11 Jun 14 - 04:33 PM

50 years ago in Irish time is like two seconds...grudges go back for centuries...mg

Subject: RE: BS: Dead babies and Tuam Bon Secours nuns
From: GUEST
Date: 11 Jun 14 - 10:52 PM

My experience is current, Joe, in Belgium, true. I first learned they wanted to abuse the local kids, including my daughter, ten years back, and the battle over their plans continues to this day. Tuam was but one of many sites and your denials ring false, sadly.

Subject: RE: BS: Dead babies and Tuam Bon Secours nuns
From: GUEST,mg
Date: 11 Jun 14 - 11:37 PM

Guest in belgium...are these abuse messes linked together...if so, wbat can you tell us.

Subject: RE: BS: Dead babies and Tuam Bon Secours nuns
From: Thompson
Date: 12 Jun 14 - 01:56 AM

A couple of good letters in today's Irish Times; both point out that while people are outraged at the Tuam atrocities, the comments in the paper on stories about current homelessness and the treatment of immigrants show that the same attitudes are alive and well.

Subject: RE: BS: Dead babies and Tuam Bon Secours nuns
From: Jack Campin
Date: 12 Jun 14 - 02:32 AM

I wonder, though, about the passion and vehemence of the response to these stories of what happened fifty years ago. Do these same people expend as much passion and energy on current injustices?

In most cases those dead children will have close relatives still alive and in some way suffering consequences from what the nuns did. Killing a child 50 years ago usually does mean a current injustice.

If you'd had a brother taken away in infancy and dropped down an anonymous hole somewhere after being refused baptism, wouldn't you want some sort of individual response that gave him a name and a story?

Subject: RE: BS: Dead babies and Tuam Bon Secours nuns
From: Musket
Date: 12 Jun 14 - 03:34 AM

Funnily enough, I agree with Akenaton that priests should be allowed to marry. I somehow think however that his thoughts are slightly more exclusive than that of normal people on this subject.

Out of interest, does anybody know what, if any, the statute of limitation is for murder in Ireland?

Subject: RE: BS: Dead babies and Tuam Bon Secours nuns
From: MGM·Lion
Date: 12 Jun 14 - 04:04 AM

Simples, Ian: what you think wikipedia for. Here you are --

"Statute of Limitations in Ireland

Limitation periods
Criminal cases

    Summary offences: normally 6 months but the period can vary
    Indictable offences: no limit,[2] judges have discretion regarding excessively long delays"

Murder obviously an indictable offence. So no limit.

OK?

~M~

Subject: RE: BS: Dead babies and Tuam Bon Secours nuns
From: Thompson
Date: 12 Jun 14 - 05:55 AM

@mg, that "grudges go back for centuries" trope is a typical piece of prejudice. (And I'll know *your* face again.)

Subject: RE: BS: Dead babies and Tuam Bon Secours nuns
From: Thompson
Date: 12 Jun 14 - 05:56 AM

(Just realised I might have chilled mg a bit. That second part was, of course, a joke.)

Subject: RE: BS: Dead babies and Tuam Bon Secours nuns
From: Musket
Date: 12 Jun 14 - 09:10 AM

Ah. Wikipedia as the arbiter. That answers so many questions Michael....

Anyway.. Having written a song about it and sang it last night in a folk club, I can say that it is 800 and no lower figure, as 800 has the required three syllables for my verse, and anything subsequent won't last the passage of time in the same way a song does. A Martian Cecil Sharpe will collect my song in the future. He won't be unearthing an old copy of The Irish Times.

I still can't believe I heard a folk singer want to see what the nitty gritty facts are. So out of character.

Subject: RE: BS: Dead babies and Tuam Bon Secours nuns
From: Big Al Whittle
Date: 12 Jun 14 - 10:47 AM

sounds great Musket!

hush little baby now you're dead!
We'll keep your body in the shed!

Subject: RE: BS: Dead babies and Tuam Bon Secours nuns
From: GUEST
Date: 12 Jun 14 - 12:09 PM

Anyway, to make MG feel better, a reply to his 11 Jun 14 - 11:37 PM

The Belgian situation has seen around 1000 dossiers into general abuse suppressed by the Malines archdiocese - research Wim de Troy.

The last of the suppressors is a child shrink named Peter Adriaenssens. He's in cahoots with the leaders of the La Ramée/Fond'Roy psychiatric institution, Belgium's top psychiatric hospital, in an organisation named Action for Teens.

These other shrinks are behind a campaign looting the last large greenfield site in Brussels, a convent opposite my former home, aiming at establishing an open outcentre for incurable psychiatric patients who have not responded to treatment in five years - Belgium's equivalent of Care in the Community. The Law on the subject only permits one such centre in each Council area, and one already exists there, making this a ghetto for the mentally abnormal - the main school for the mentally handicapped is also on the block.

The transfer of the property was structured for a notional amount, in fraudulent breach of Belgian fiscal law and in blatant contravention of a direct instruction from the Mother Superior General's immediate line superior the Pope (this being a Prima Primaria Order, reporting directly and uniquely to him). Their intention expressed in Crown Court was that half a dozen local kids should be able to reintegrate the mentally ill into society despite the failure of the best efforts of the profession over five years previously. Exposing the local kids (my own daughter foremost among them) to the tender care of 120 incurable madmen without the least consultation with, let alone approval from, their parents isn't child abuse, I don't know what is. In this, I worked with Belgium's top Supreme Court Judge in the domain, so it's not my subjective opinion, but that of the topmost authority.

The Order in question is supposed to be the ArchiAssociation of the Eucharist, "perpetually and universally" charged with the leadership of the lay Eucharistic Associations of the Roman Church, according to its Papal mandate of the 1890s. It has repeatedly refused to respect a Papal instruction to cooperate with the local Neighbourhood Association in the transfer of its functions, and so has completely dropped the ball where its responsibility for a fundamental tenet of the Christian creed, the Eucharist, is concerned. They have returned to the attack no less than five times now.

If Rome no longer gives a toss for its basic tenets of faith, let alone for children, then I can no longer consider it has any claim to spiritual authority. It has had its chance to correct itself, and seem determined to wallow in turpitude. True, it's not child murders on a Tuam scale, but the scale of abuse covered up and evidently still intended is on an equivalent level in terms of numbers. The victims have had no justice 4 years after the Adrieanssens Report, and matters continue as ever, unrepentant.

Roma delenda est

Subject: RE: BS: Dead babies and Tuam Bon Secours nuns
From: Musket
Date: 12 Jun 14 - 12:17 PM

Aye, Al. At the end of every verse, I shout "Come on everybody!" Just like The Spinners did; Let's sing of a mining disaster! Everybody!!

I must admit, I prefer the dirge lamenting and noting the story I wrote to your upbeat pop song there. Mine was inspired by the one mg put earlier in the thread. What was yours, Dave Allen?

Subject: RE: BS: Dead babies and Tuam Bon Secours nuns
From: GUEST,pete from seven stars link
Date: 12 Jun 14 - 01:35 PM

you should not be surprised, musket. when folk singers wanted me to post lyrics to one of my songs they were very particular about the details !

Subject: RE: BS: Dead babies and Tuam Bon Secours nuns
From: Rog Peek
Date: 12 Jun 14 - 01:38 PM

Jack is absolutely right. If Joe you had heard some of the harrowing stories that people have been telling on RTE radio recently, of their personal experiences you would realise just how right he is.

Rog

Subject: RE: BS: Dead babies and Tuam Bon Secours nuns
From: GUEST,mg
Date: 12 Jun 14 - 01:40 PM

Can you post thelyrics

Subject: RE: BS: Dead babies and Tuam Bon Secours nuns
From: Musket
Date: 12 Jun 14 - 03:08 PM

Aye well pete, you write your lyrics from your perspective and I from mine eh?

That said, nobody here, unless they were in a certain folk club in North !Lincolnshire last night know the song I wrote....

I am playing over the weekend down in Surrey so the song gets another airing. Mind you, I daren't get down as far as Dorset. Al might picket the pub door...

Ireland and superstition interfering in reality and making lives a misery. Not exactly a new song subject is it?

Subject: RE: BS: Dead babies and Tuam Bon Secours nuns
From: Jim Carroll
Date: 12 Jun 14 - 03:14 PM

"These things were not done under orders from the Vatican."
In the case of Bessborough, the Vatican intervened directly when the appointed medical officer demanded that the medically inexperined be removed from caring for the children and that sick and infected children be quarantined - a papal representative complained to deValera directly.
Throughout thechild abuse scandal, the hierarchy of the church facilitated further abuse by passing the abusers on to other parishes, and eventually other countries and continue their abusing.
The Vatican still refuses to release documents to surviving abuse victims - see Mea Maxima Culpa.
As I said - not "a few rotten apples" - but a whole blighted tree.
Ireland in the first half of the 20th century was what it was directly due to the influence of the Church
Jim Carroll

Subject: RE: BS: Dead babies and Tuam Bon Secours nuns
From: GUEST
Date: 12 Jun 14 - 05:25 PM

And if you doubt it, ask yourself why it is now 15 months after Francis was elected and narry a doctrinal instruction given. Someone probably whispered John Paul I in his ear.

Subject: RE: BS: Dead babies and Tuam Bon Secours nuns
From: Big Al Whittle
Date: 12 Jun 14 - 11:29 PM

Be a Catholic! Don't be a sceptic!
We can dump our babies in a tank that's septic
We can dance at the crossroads! that will be a highlight
Before we kill the kids, in the Celtic Twilight!

Subject: RE: BS: Dead babies and Tuam Bon Secours nuns
From: GUEST,Musket
Date: 13 Jun 14 - 01:12 AM

Never heard anyone call your songs rap before Al.

There again, my ears need syringing.

Subject: RE: BS: Dead babies and Tuam Bon Secours nuns
From: Big Al Whittle
Date: 13 Jun 14 - 10:12 AM

well catholic priest pervs - its a bit of an open goal.

bit like all these songs - isn't it a pity all the heroes died in the first world war....yeh that's revolutionary talk all right...man the barricades!

it gets to the point where someone like that muslim woman denounces IDS as a thieving greedy bastard - and everyone is shocked. just imagine that...having something to say about whats happening this week!