BS: Dead babies and Tuam Bon Secours nuns

Subject: RE: BS: irelands shame
From: GUEST,#
Date: 05 Jun 14 - 01:17 PM

This is thread number two on the same topic.

Subject: RE: BS: Dead babies and Tuam Bon Secours nuns
From: Musket
Date: 05 Jun 14 - 02:56 PM

If it takes thread one million, so be it.

Any reason for saying what you just did guest# ?

Subject: RE: BS: Dead babies and Tuam Bon Secours nuns
From: Joe Offer
Date: 05 Jun 14 - 03:02 PM

Note to MG: When Italy became a nation in the 1870s, the whole central part of the "boot" was absorbed into that new nation. That part of Italy had been the Papal States. In the Lateran Concordat of 1929, Italy compensated the Vatican for the loss of the Papal States. That money became the endowment that has supported the Vatican to this day - and yes, there has been corruption in the management of that money at times, but the money is still there. So, the Vatican is in the enviable position of being healthily endowed and largely self-supporting.
The Vatican does have worldwide collections like the Peter's Pence collection (now used for philanthropy, but once used to support the Vatican), but most of those are for international relief.

---

This mass grave in Ireland is a challenging situation to respond to. I don't imagine I'll prevail in this discussion, since I've lost out in so many others. And for that matter, I really don't know what is the appropriate response. All I seek to do is to examine the response to such atrocities and try to learn what is appropriate and effective.

It seems to me, that every nation has its "original sin," something that the nation as a whole must take responsibility for - for all time. America has two such "original sins" - racism, and the European conquest of Native American land. Everyone in America who is white, has reaped some sort of undeserved reward from these two sins, and all with black or Native American blood are still suffering the cost of these sins. Now, I suppose if my great grandfather hadn't left Germany in the 1870s to become a furrier in Detroit, the Offer branch of my family would have died in a concentration camp in Europe. And the McQuade branch of my family might have died of starvation in Ireland in the 1840s. Still the next generation prospered, as did those after that.

Now, despite the fact that my great-grandparents were immigrants and refugees themselves, my grandparents were horribly racist - as were all in their generation. I remember hearing them say things in the 1960s that were embarrassingly racist. Oh, and the things they said about homosexuals were even worse.

And now I live in a nice place in California, which once was part of Mexico - but Mexican people who come to work here are considered "illegal" and are deported by the hundreds of thousands. I suppose I should feel horrible that I live in this nice place - but instead of condemning myself, I save my condemnation for people who live in really opulent places.

I'm working on the issue of mass incarceration in the United States, and one of the first things I learned was the amazing percentage of nonwhites in U.S. prisons. Isn't that a direct effect of the racism of my grandparents?

I hear an outcry from many about the priest who said on RTE saying that times were different then. He didn't deny what happened, and he didn't try to downplay the significance of what happened (although we don't really know the details of what happened yet). All he said that that times were different then. And that's true. The times of our grandparents were cruel times, in many, many ways. In Ireland, the power of oppression was embodied in the Church. In England, it was the ruling classes. In Germany, it was the nobles and then the industrialists and then the Nazi Party. In the United States, it was the slave owners. But wherever the center of power was, the truth of the matter is that the times of our grandparents were very cruel times.

So, now we're half a century later, and we're still trying to assess the blame and exact a price from whomever we can blame. In Ireland and most of Europe, everybody's after the Church - but the Church is no longer what it was, and yet so many of you act like the Inquisition were still going on. The Church is a very good scapegoat, because it's still there despite the fact that so many people no longer belong to it. And so all those former members can feel righteous and clean, and can deny all responsibility to the misdeeds of their ancestors.

But you know, if you have any sort of comfortable lifestyle, you most probably have benefitted from the suffering of all those people who suffered during the times of your grandparents. You're eating food that should have been eaten by the children and grandchildren of those 796 babies that didn't live, and you're living in houses where they should have lived.

Somebody above said that this mass grave must be investigated so that such a thing will never happen again. That is absolutely true. However, whenever something like this happens, there is a natural human urge to find somebody to blame, somebody other than ourselves. If we don't learn in our investigations that we are all responsible for the sins of our ancestors, then we have not learned the lesson that we need to learn from all this. Yes, the times of our grandparents were cruel times - but there is infinite cruelty and injustice in our current society.

We can waste our energy trying to assess blame for the past cruelty of our society, or we can open our eyes and see the cruelty that exists in our current time and spend our lives working to fix it.

I prefer the latter approach.

-Joe-

Subject: RE: BS: Dead babies and Tuam Bon Secours nuns
From: Greg F.
Date: 05 Jun 14 - 03:24 PM

We can waste our energy trying to assess blame for the past cruelty of our society

Sorry again, Joe - this wasn't the fault of "society" - it was the fault of those particular individuals who, with premeditation, starved the children to death.

And they, be they still alive, should be brought to book.

Subject: RE: BS: Dead babies and Tuam Bon Secours nuns
From: GUEST,#
Date: 05 Jun 14 - 03:32 PM

Musket, the following three posts were on a newly started thread by GSS, and I thought he'd missed the thread we are on now.

GUEST,#         05 Jun 14 - 01:17 PM
Richard Bridge         05 Jun 14 - 01:05 PM
Good Soldier Schweik         05 Jun 14 - 12:52 PM



I agree the issue requires exposure. In fact I posted a link to the story on another thread yesterday. I think it's important. However, the general rule is one thread to one subject or else things get confused. That's why I said what I did.

Subject: RE: BS: Dead babies and Tuam Bon Secours nuns
From: GUEST,#
Date: 05 Jun 14 - 03:35 PM

The following is the thread I posted to on June 5, making it two days back, not one as I stated in the last post.

"Subject: RE: BS: The right not to be offended
From: GUEST,#
Date: 03 Jun 14 - 11:08 PM

Indeed. The right not to be offended."

Subject: RE: BS: Dead babies and Tuam Bon Secours nuns
From: Jeri
Date: 05 Jun 14 - 03:42 PM

The two threads were combined.

Subject: RE: BS: Dead babies and Tuam Bon Secours nuns
From: GUEST,Musket
Date: 05 Jun 14 - 04:00 PM

Mmmm.. Interesting

Joe. Stop saying society. Society contains decent people as well as organised religions seeking to hold control over people.

Society didn't do this heinous crime against humanity. People did. After Nuremberg, the National Socialist Party (Nazi) was made an illegal organisation. Why ? Because you can't just blame the historic perpetrators, you question the philosophy that allows such crime to be normalised.

Sorry but your disassociation with the organisation that did this whilst remaining supportive of it takes a level of reconciling I am not capable of understanding.

Nor am I minded to be educated.

Subject: RE: BS: Dead babies and Tuam Bon Secours nuns
From: Joe Offer
Date: 05 Jun 14 - 04:20 PM

Greg F says: Sorry again, Joe - this wasn't the fault of "society" - it was the fault of those particular individuals who, with premeditation, starved the children to death

Yes, Greg, that's true - but most of those people who committed those crimes fifty years ago are dead. We really don't know yet what those crimes may have been, or who committed them. But still, it was Irish society that established and condoned such institutions.

And for that, all of Ireland is to blame - not only those who are currently Catholic.

Musket, you make the mistake of expecting uniformity from the billion-member Catholic Church. Of course, all those bad elements that you despise, do exist in the Catholic Church. Of course, people acting with the authority of the Catholic Church committed crimes. But organizations of the Catholic Church have also operated excellent schools and hospitals and social programs where problems were few and services were of high quality. Rather than condemning the entire Catholic Church or insisting the Catholics no longer be allowed to educate their children, you have to do the work to sort out what's good and what's bad. Blanket accusations do not apply.

-Joe-

Subject: RE: BS: Dead babies and Tuam Bon Secours nuns
From: Joe Offer
Date: 05 Jun 14 - 04:43 PM

And yes, yes, yes it's true that individuals committed these crimes. I suppose the threat of prosecution at any age does serve as some sort of deterrent. But from another point of view, it just doesn't do much good to put an eighty-year-old woman in prison. What is constructive and necessary, is to examine what happened within a societal context, and then fix whatever it is in society that causes such things to happen.

Yes, individuals committed the crimes - but these are crimes that happened on a widespread scale within an institutional context that was established by both Church and State. And it wasn't the English who did this - it was the newly independent Irish nation. And it wasn't Rome that did this - all the institutions were thoroughly Irish. That fact that many of those Irish are no longer Catholic, does not excuse them.

Weren't you people alive when society used to shun unwed mothers? It wasn't a religious thing - it was something that most people did, and it was cruel. And unwed mothers were quietly sent away to some institution, often condemned to a life of poverty and not to be heard from again in polite company. Some of those unwed mothers were actually treated well and given a good education in their institutions - but most of society continued to shun them.

-Joe-

Subject: RE: BS: Dead babies and Tuam Bon Secours nuns
From: Richard Bridge
Date: 05 Jun 14 - 05:09 PM

There are three sets of the guilty - the rabid nuns who personally committed the vile acts, the rabid religions that gave birth to the satanic beliefs of the nuns, and the state that existed in symbiosis with the rabid religions.

Subject: RE: BS: Dead babies and Tuam Bon Secours nuns
From: Penny S.
Date: 05 Jun 14 - 05:12 PM

There were Magdalene Laundries east of the Irish Sea as well. And the Protestant Barnado's homes sending children overseas, lying to their parents, lying to the children, to God knows what lives. And rehoming babies was going on in Spain and South America as well, the RCC again, and lies being told to mothers about their babies being born dead. It's not just the Irish.
It's when those in power think of those "beneath" them as somehow not quite as human as they are, and to be played with like toys.

Subject: RE: BS: Dead babies and Tuam Bon Secours nuns
From: Big Al Whittle
Date: 05 Jun 14 - 05:21 PM

I dunno - you turn the water into wine, give the sermon on the mount, cure the lame....

then someone finds some dead babies in your back garden, and then they all keep going on as though its your fault.

I mean....just cool it...

Subject: RE: BS: Dead babies and Tuam Bon Secours nuns
From: GUEST
Date: 05 Jun 14 - 05:26 PM

To show you how thumbs weigh on the semantic balance, the site is termed a graveyard - yet it's unconsecrated. The Archbishop accepts they'll have to rebury them in consecrated ground...not that it makes much difference to them or their mothers, I suspect. That ground is consecrated by their suffering, by the testimony they bear against their murderers, holy mothers or not.

And it's not just Ireland, Joe, I had to intervene to protect my daughter in Belgium. For that I was denounced as a heretic Protestant from the pulpit, as an irresponsible single father - my wife had died of cancer. It may be worse in Ireland, but the sense of immunity in the priesthood is everywhere, in Scotland we had a prime case, in the US, in France. This is endemic and must stop. As it isn't being stopped there can only be one solution, and that is to call a spade a spade and end this so-called Church. My reason for it is that in almost any organisation, a new boss has a year to clean and shape it to his mould. It's now well over a year since Pope Francis took over and not a blind thing has changed. This is a typical example. If he had a proper grip there's no way the priest who made those sweep-it-under-the-carpet-again would or could have done it.

It's not hatred of the Church or its fellows, but utter and complete disbelief that it's capable of changing. And if it cannot change itself, then it has become a dead weight in the faith however you conceive it. How long will anyone believe the statements of intent when the reality is something different?

Subject: RE: BS: Dead babies and Tuam Bon Secours nuns
From: Penny S.
Date: 05 Jun 14 - 05:26 PM

I remember, while watching films about the laundries, wondering how much choice the nuns had had about their lives, and if the bitterness was because they were victims, too. Nowadays, one can be sure about the real choice that nuns have made, but then? Not an excuse, but an undertanding.

Subject: RE: BS: Dead babies and Tuam Bon Secours nuns
From: GUEST,Musket
Date: 05 Jun 14 - 05:29 PM

The timeline you use coincides with the hold religion had on society.

To say that at one time society put up with things it doesn't do now fits perfectly with when people began dismissing religion in large numbers.

Yes, you can't look at the Catholics next door and ask them why they support throwing dead babies in cesspits. No more than you can look at the Muslim next door but one and ask him to apologise for marketplace bombs. Of course you can't.

But you can ask a hierarchical organisation how their constitution helps prevent such things from happening now. You can ask them how they assure themselves and others it is impossible for them to knowingly keep quiet when their staff carry out crimes against humanity in the name of their employer.

Subject: RE: BS: Dead babies and Tuam Bon Secours nuns
From: Greg F.
Date: 05 Jun 14 - 06:05 PM

is to examine what happened within a societal context,

Well, Joe - now for a musical interlude:

Frank and Jesse James were products of their environment. They were sent out into the woods by their parents to forage for berries, truffles, rutabagas, and roots of all sorts. Put yourself in their place...you'da been mean too!
Kinston Trio Intro to "Jesse James"

Subject: RE: BS: Dead babies and Tuam Bon Secours nuns
From: Joe Offer
Date: 05 Jun 14 - 06:18 PM

To say that at one time society put up with things it doesn't do now fits perfectly with when people began dismissing religion in large numbers.

And the change also marks the time when religion became a voluntary thing, instead of something that was required by societal pressure. I think that to a large degree, a religion embodies the standards of its members, rather than the members marching to the tune played by the religious group. Throughout history, religion has served to institutionalize and reinforce societal taboos - but the taboos flowed from society, and did not appear by church decree. Now, of course there is some back-and-forth on this, but I think it's clear that religious morality mirrors societal norms. Now that religion is voluntary, there is a vast change. Richard Bridge's rabid nuns and rabid religions and satanic beliefs no longer exist. Well, the Satanists exist, but they're a much nicer earth-based religion now.

Now, Musket, you couldn't possibly understand the reality of this because your preconceptions will not allow you to actually read some Catholic Church proclamations on moral issues, to see how such things actually work. They are now published in the form of "attempts to persuade," and that's been the general format since mean old Pius IX died in 1878.

And I repeat again that the last of these mass-grave deaths happened in 1961, 53 years ago. That's not to dismiss the seriousness of the offense - it's to remind you of the reality that this isn't happening now, and it hasn't happened in a long, long time. The Catholic Church of today, isn't anything like it was 53 years ago - despite lingering stodginess in a number of areas. I visited a number of Sisters of Mercy convents when I was in Ireland a couple of years ago. The scary nuns are all good, and all you see in Irish convents now are nice old ladies who are obsessed with making tea - and it's darn good tea, too.

I suppose that one very detrimental aspect of the Church, was its cosiness with government in much of Western Europe, and most particularly in Ireland. In the U.S., government inspectors monitor religious schools and hospitals and institutions - and since Church and State aren't in bed together, one institution serves as a check on the other. For the most part, Church and State seem to be moving apart in Europe, and I think that's healthy.

-Joe-

Subject: RE: BS: Dead babies and Tuam Bon Secours nuns
From: Richard Bridge
Date: 05 Jun 14 - 06:21 PM

No, Mither. You have to ask the hierarchies why they imposed those things then. Why they imposed vows of obedience. Why they condemned sexuality.   They were the fount of evil.

Subject: RE: BS: Dead babies and Tuam Bon Secours nuns
From: Joe Offer
Date: 05 Jun 14 - 06:34 PM

Yes, Richard - but for the most part it wasn't nearly as dramatic as you describe it. You've been watching too many old nun movies...

Subject: RE: BS: Dead babies and Tuam Bon Secours nuns
From: GUEST,#
Date: 05 Jun 14 - 07:41 PM

Who's Mither?

Subject: RE: BS: Dead babies and Tuam Bon Secours nuns
From: GUEST,mg
Date: 05 Jun 14 - 07:53 PM

About satanic rituals etc..a priest is now supposedly on his deathbed and was jailed for the murder of a nun, and it was said to involve satanism I believe. It was on bishop accountability abuse tracker. I advise daily reading of it if you can because it will disabuse anyone of the notion that it is all in the past, few bad apples...all from 20 years ago...no..not really.

And I see now more meanness and cruelty in the church than I did 53 years ago..maybe I just wasn't aware..but I certainly would have been 40 years ago...once cruelty gets institutionalized, and it has been, it is very hard to eradicate. And I don't believe you can correct it with love love love either. You have to stand up to it and say we are watching you and shining a light on you and ridiculing you whenever we can but we will not stand for your behavior..and they will not like this one bit.

Subject: RE: BS: Dead babies and Tuam Bon Secours nuns
From: Joe Offer
Date: 05 Jun 14 - 11:21 PM

MG has an infinite ability to draw vast conclusions from isolated instances. She sees people giving Hitler salutes when they follow the ancient tradition of raising a hand in blessing. What is the increased "meanness and cruelty" you've observed, MG?
bishopaccountability.org does a good job of reporting the facts and the scope of the child molestation scandal in the U.S. Catholic Church. The percentage of offenders is somewhere between four and ten percent of all priests. There seems to be a great reduction in offenses since controls were instituted in the U.S. in 2002, but my own diocese had two recent arrests of priests.
-Joe Offer-

Subject: RE: BS: Dead babies and Tuam Bon Secours nuns
From: GUEST,mg
Date: 05 Jun 14 - 11:50 PM

It is certainly not an unbroken tradition in the catholic church..i never saw it until last ten lr so years bur i am glad to say i have helped to replace it with nonoffensive gestures. Anyway good article by susan lohan..google irish baby scandal. She and others say nuns were paid per mother and child what a working man perhaps supporting ten children made. Lus they had gardens and livdstock. Must be confirmed. An analysis of where the money went is urgent. The nuns prob lived very simply. Was it siphoned off? Where did it go. Children died and there might have been sufficient money coming in to make this criminal.

Subject: RE: BS: Dead babies and Tuam Bon Secours nuns
From: MGM·Lion
Date: 06 Jun 14 - 01:47 AM

Joe: "Throughout history, religion has served to institutionalize and reinforce societal taboos - but the taboos flowed from society, and did not appear by church decree"
,..,
This a greatly oversimplified view, if I may so so, Joe. Sometimes it has been one way around, sometimes the other. "Church v State" has always been a profound issue, frequently coming to a head as in the case of Luther inducing the Reformation, & Henry VIII's Dissolution of the Monasteries soon after [one of those zeitgeist things rather than direct consequence, tho obviously not entirely so]. My impression is that in general throughout history, from OT times onward in the West & likewise in other parts of the world, the Church [in the broad sense] has most often had the best of it, at that. Certainly the influence has not been all one way as you appear from above quote to believe.

In Ireland, my feeling is that it has nearly always been the RC Church that has dominated where conflict of interest has arisen. And I would point out that pregnant Irish girls, as someone pointed out above, still have to make the journey to England, as they once did to California on chartered air flights for the purpose [see Ch 1 of David Lodge's distinguished campus novel Changing Places, 1975], to get a legal abortion -- or in any event did so until very recently.

In most cases, I repeat, it has been religion that led & society that followed. Still the case in most Islamic countries -- see all the threads about THAT particular issue! -- rather than the way round you suggested above, Joe.

~M~

Subject: RE: BS: Dead babies and Tuam Bon Secours nuns
From: MGM·Lion
Date: 06 Jun 14 - 01:50 AM

I meant to make the point above that, notoriously, the Spanish crown & state were for centuries entirely in thrall to the Holy Office, aka The Spanish Inquisition, as is well known.

Subject: RE: BS: Dead babies and Tuam Bon Secours nuns
From: Joe Offer
Date: 06 Jun 14 - 02:00 AM

Michael, you're confusing "State" with society and taking a legalistic viewpoint. While both Church and State are good at writing laws, actual morality comes from something deeper - it's based on societal norms and taboos. The laws of both Church and State reflect that societal morality, and it is very difficult to enact effective law that does not complement societal morality.

-Joe-

Subject: RE: BS: Dead babies and Tuam Bon Secours nuns
From: MGM·Lion
Date: 06 Jun 14 - 03:44 AM

But these invariably derive their authority, always, from time immemorial, from a supposed supernatural entity, as interpreted by its representatives on earth: as demonstrated by your invocation of the concept of "taboo", Joe. More than just a 'dead metaphor' in this context.

Who crowned Solomon king? Why, Zadok the Priest and Nahum the Prophet, of course.

~M~

Subject: RE: BS: Dead babies and Tuam Bon Secours nuns
From: Joe Offer
Date: 06 Jun 14 - 03:58 AM

....and it's been my experience that law and authority have very little effect on most people. Most people do what they want to do, and what they personally think is the right thing to do. They choose to associate with groups that reflect their values and norms, not the other way around.

I just don't buy this idea of "brainwashing" or of people conforming themselves to the dictates of church authority. Yes, there are religious orders within the Catholic Church that are authoritarian and require obedience. But usually people join these orders because they want to subject themselves to authoritarianism. God knows why....

In my two trips to Ireland, I saw religious authoritarianism and severity that made me retch. But it seemed to me that the people who practiced religion in that severe fashion, did so because they wanted to and not because it was forced upon them. MG has a very severe view of her Catholic faith, but it's something she has chosen.

On the other hand, I saw Catholic convents and parishes that were lively and loving and vibrant - and intellectually stimulating.

The same is true for Catholicism everywhere. Some Catholics choose authoritarianism, and authoritarianism is available to them (although I pity their poor children who have no choice in the matter). But many Catholics, not only in the United States, chose a gentler form of the Faith - and that, too, is available to them.

This won't satisfy Musket. He understands only uniformity. He believes that churches can't be churches unless they practice rigid uniformity - and then he loathes them because of that rigidity.

But the fact of the matter is that there is a wide diversity of thought and practice within the Catholic Church, as one might expect in a billion-member organization. And I freely admit that we have more than our fair share of assholes. I try to stay away from them.

-Joe-

Subject: RE: BS: Dead babies and Tuam Bon Secours nuns
From: Jim Carroll
Date: 06 Jun 14 - 04:14 AM

"I just don't buy this idea of "brainwashing"
Jesuit maxim
"Give me a child for for his first seven years and I'll give you the man"
The brainwashing of someone who has no choice - a child
While the church maintains its grip over education in Ireland, this will remain the case.
It is little wonder they are fighting as hard as they are to maintain that grip.
If anybody where I live wishes to send their child to a non or mixed denomination school, in theory they would have to travel 20 miles to the market town, in practice, 50, into Galway, where they may find a place, if they were lucky
Where is the choice in that?
Jim Carroll

Subject: RE: BS: Dead babies and Tuam Bon Secours nuns
From: Joe Offer
Date: 06 Jun 14 - 04:24 AM

Hmmm. Interesting question, Michael. I have to say that while Church and State may derive their authority from from a supposed supernatural entity, the "entity" derives its authority from the society that worships that entity.

To my mind, God doesn't really deal with authority - that's a human concept. God simply is. I see God as the Essence of All, as Love, as That Which Is Beyond. I see that God as worthy of pondering and of awe, which is my form of prayer. It works for me, and I'm not particularly concerned whether it works for anyone else.

Morality is societal conduct and values that make sense for the health of society. And since there is an element of transcendence in whatever it is that makes society good and healthy and constructive, there is God-stuff in morality.

But Authority? That's a human thing. Humans ascribe it to God because it reinforces their own human authority. But I don't really think God cares about authority.

-Joe-

Subject: RE: BS: Dead babies and Tuam Bon Secours nuns
From: GUEST
Date: 06 Jun 14 - 04:52 AM

He does, I've channelled it, Joe. Used to work for Javier Solana, European State Derpartment equivalent. My IQ's through the ceiling, I'm told, but it wasn't ever me.
What you need to do s start taking Matthew 5-8 seriously.

Subject: RE: BS: Dead babies and Tuam Bon Secours nuns
From: Joe Offer
Date: 06 Jun 14 - 04:57 AM

Guest, are you saying that God used to work for Javier Solana??? I think I knew Javier back in the day. Gee, all these years, and I didn't know that.

And the inimitable Jim Carroll quotes:

"Give me a child for for his first seven years and I'll give you the man"

You call that brainwashing, Jim, and I call that education. You correctly ascribe that statement to the Jesuits, I think; and the Jesuits have rightly prided themselves in teaching "critical thinking" - teaching people to think for themselves in non-ideological ways.

To be honest, I sometimes think that you and some others here are incapable of thinking in non-ideological ways, and thus are incapable of comprehending that thought can be anything other than ideological. The popular phrase nowadays is "thinking outside the box" - and you can't do that and don't even understand what that means. Tolerance is impossible for you, because you see all of life as a battle of ideologies - and you are set on your ideology being on the winning side.

I think many of you need to break out of your shell and accept the fact that this wonderful world of ours is profoundly fucked up and always will be - and that's part of what makes it wonderful. There are no straight lines. Nothing is all good, and nothing is all bad - it is what it is, and that's quite wonderful.

-Joe-

Subject: RE: BS: Dead babies and Tuam Bon Secours nuns
From: GUEST,Peter Laban
Date: 06 Jun 14 - 05:06 AM

'I visited a number of Sisters of Mercy convents when I was in Ireland a couple of years ago. The scary nuns are all good, and all you see in Irish convents now are nice old ladies who are obsessed with making tea - and it's darn good tea, too.'

How much is it perception and what we want to see Joe? My son, many of his friends, with classic teenage hyperbole, as well as others who visited the local secondary, Mercy convent, school maintain the nuns are evil creatures.

And whatever old ladies they may appear now, if the story of Christine Buckley's childhood is anything to go by, they used to carry a big stick. And they probably managed a nice cup of tea as well.

Subject: RE: BS: Dead babies and Tuam Bon Secours nuns
From: Joe Offer
Date: 06 Jun 14 - 05:18 AM

I meant to say that the scary nuns are all gone - but I guess that "good" works pretty well, too.

You know, Peter, I don't really believe your teenage son and his hyperboles. He's tied to stereotypes, and so are you. I've worked with nuns all my life, and I'm an associate member of the Sisters of Mercy (my wife makes comments about being married to a nun...). They're just people, and they don't fit any stereotype. Some are a pain in the ass, but most are quite remarkable women. And yes, I suppose some are capable of committing crimes (or at least they might have when they were younger). But they're just people, living life the way they see best, as we all do.

Now, my boss is a Loretto sister, a member of the Institute of the Blessed Virgin Mary. She's a terrible flirt, which I kind of enjoy. She's worked with poor and homeless people for 25 years - she took two years off to work with refugees in Rwanda. And she's remarkable, no doubt about it. And she doesn't fit your stereotype.

My friend Sister Libby went through three years of the U.S. Air Force Academy when they first accepted women, but she dropped out because of constant sexual harassment. She finished her obligation to the Air Force as an enlisted member, and then became a Sister of Mercy. She is executive director of the Loaves and Fishes Dining Room in Sacramento, providing for the needs of hundreds of people. And she's funny, and fun to be with, and a very normal-seeming person.

For the most part, nuns are remarkable people. I admit, though, that there are some bad eggs among them. After all - they're people.

Your story of Christine Buckley is most likely at least partly true. There were horrific institutions run by Catholic nuns in Ireland, and they died out far later than they did in the rest of the world. But by about 1990, they had pretty much died out in Ireland, too.

But no, I don't buy your implication that the nuns still with the Sisters of Mercy in Ireland are of that sort. I talked with them at length, and they certainly don't appear to have deep dark secrets of evildoing to hide. But then I don't see people that way; and I find that most people who see people as evil, have a mindset that tends to find evil. I'm sorry, but I just can't see most people as evil.

-Joe-

Subject: RE: BS: Dead babies and Tuam Bon Secours nuns
From: GUEST,Musket
Date: 06 Jun 14 - 05:29 AM

Too fucking true Joe. Except I don't hate religion for its conformity, I resent that they try to influence society. I don't recall seeing Jesus on the ballot sheet. And until they stop being misogynist and homophobic, they are to be dismissed and ignored in totality by respectable citizens.

And if they don't do what they insist vulnerable people do? Well that's plain hypocrisy which means they wouldn't get the votes of decent people anyway.

Don't shout at me for dismissing dangerous institutions who want to have control over people. Shout at yourself for supporting them.

Subject: RE: BS: Dead babies and Tuam Bon Secours nuns
From: Joe Offer
Date: 06 Jun 14 - 05:34 AM

Musket, take some time to study the color grey. You see things only in black and white, and that can get really annoying at times.

Think about expanding your mind, and try a little tolerance.

Honesty, you and Jim Carroll are about as priggishly moralistic as your nun stereotypes.

Why is it that you think that religious people shouldn't have the same right you have to join with others and attempt to influence society?

-Joe Offer-

Subject: RE: BS: Dead babies and Tuam Bon Secours nuns
From: Joe Offer
Date: 06 Jun 14 - 05:44 AM

...and while you claim not to hate religion for its conformity, you cannot even fathom the fact of its nonconformity. You see churches and religious people as uniformly evil, because your rigid mindset will not allow you to see the wide spectrum that religion encompasses - some good, some bad.

And on top of that, you and Mr. Carroll are incapable of seeing religion as anything but ideology, because the two of you are so rigidly ideological that you can see nothing else.


Open your friggin' eyes.

-Joe-

Subject: RE: BS: Dead babies and Tuam Bon Secours nuns
From: GUEST,Peter Laban
Date: 06 Jun 14 - 05:56 AM

'You know, Peter, I don't really believe your teenage son and his hyperboles. He's tied to stereotypes, and so are you. I've worked with nuns all my life, and I'm an associate member of the Sisters of Mercy (my wife makes comments about being married to a nun...). They're just people, and they don't fit any stereotype. Some are a pain in the ass, but most are quite remarkable women. And yes, I suppose some are capable of committing crimes (or at least they might have when they were younger). But they're just people, living life the way they see best, as we all do.'

Joe, I was just saying nuns may appear nice old ladies but it's all perception and depends on the role you deal with them. My son and the others who attended the school didn't get invited for tea in the big house. They dealt with the sisters in a very different capacity.

There was one of the nuns who used to work at the school, I'd see her when I do the school run every day. she's come out and feed the birds every day. I admit I loved the image of the old lady surrounded by dozens of big black crows and rooks but never mind that, the friendly old lady fell back to the manner of her teaching days when the pupils left school and maybe walked a bit too quickly for her liking. She shouted them down in a very authoritative manner, quite the transformation.

Yes, human beings living life, I can't disagree with that. But for ever peddling the idea they're all just nice tea making ladies (aren't all older Irish women?), how's that not being tied to stereotypes?

Subject: RE: BS: Dead babies and Tuam Bon Secours nuns
From: GUEST
Date: 06 Jun 14 - 05:59 AM

At the end of the day it worked for them not because of Society but because the priests pushed the individual members of the congregation into compliancy. It's what the Confessional is about. The heirarch is never wrong. Even when he or she is.
Let's remove it from a religious setting and look at a secular equivalent, Haut de la Garenne in Jersey. There too the civil authorities have been shown to be covering up a scandal, in forcing the equivalent historian-journalist Leah McGrath Goodman out of the country, which was sufficient to cause a rebound and full judicial investigation. See the difference? Cover-up and little action in the one case, cover-up and judicial investigation in the other, which will likely lead to criminal charges. It's too early to preempt the outcome, of course, but the basic facts about Jersey are clear from the survivors. The basic facts about Tuam could also be clear - if the survivors were given the confidence to speak for themselves.

Subject: RE: BS: Dead babies and Tuam Bon Secours nuns
From: Jim Carroll
Date: 06 Jun 14 - 06:24 AM

"You call that brainwashing, Jim, and I call that education"
It is a boast of Christian teaching Joe, not education- if you get your hands on a human being early enough, you can make them anything you wish to.
This is why the church is fighting as hard as it is to maintain their grip on the minds of children.
Any changes in the church recently are due to their having been found out
I was brought up among Christians - mine is neither an ideological or outsider's view of its practices and its influence - it is an up-close one of its practices - I was in "the box".
The fact that my parents chose not to send me for a religious education has, I think, enabled me to think outside it and be aware of both sides of the argument.
Pupils in Ireland still do the choices my parents had - her it is religious education or no education at all
Jim Carroll

Subject: RE: BS: Dead babies and Tuam Bon Secours nuns
From: Jack Campin
Date: 06 Jun 14 - 06:33 AM

The idea that Every Day In Every Way Things Are Getting Better And Better, as applied to the Catholic Church, is dead wrong.

In the UK, and presumably Ireland too, there has been a large influx of Polish Catholics (in Edinburgh, there are probably more people going to Mass in Polish than in English). They have brought much of their ideology with them, which means the rabidly misogynistic crap that has rolled back all the gains women made in Polish society since WW2. And the Catholic Church in Poland has made damn sure that NOTHING of what they've been up to with children has ever been investigated by an independent authority.

As if they weren't bad enough, the British priesthood has been infiltrated by a right-wing fraction (I forget its name, but it was closely aligned with Ratzinger both while he was Wojtyla's enforcer and subsequently) which sees itself as the ideological police. In Edinburgh this meant in one instance that church libraries were purged of all internally dissident literature by people like Hans Küng. I presume these arseholes have been operating in Ireland too.

So. Between a plague of thick-as-pigshit Reagan/Wojtyla fanboys and a Rome-directed elite of ruthless ideologues, the prospects for truth and accountability in these islands don't look that great. And given that despite the admirable statements of intent, Francis looks like ending up about as ineffectual as Obama, I can't see it getting much better in the long run anywhere else.

When Italy became a nation in the 1870s, the whole central part of the "boot" was absorbed into that new nation. That part of Italy had been the Papal States. In the Lateran Concordat of 1929, Italy compensated the Vatican for the loss of the Papal States. That money became the endowment that has supported the Vatican to this day - and yes, there has been corruption in the management of that money at times, but the money is still there. So, the Vatican is in the enviable position of being healthily endowed and largely self-supporting.

Where do you think the money came from? Their wealth meant the poverty of the Italian people. Mussolini bought the Church's allegiance nearly a century ago and it's stayed bought.

Subject: RE: BS: Dead babies and Tuam Bon Secours nuns
From: GUEST
Date: 06 Jun 14 - 06:38 AM

Talking to my colleagues in the Belgian compaign, we thought it had settled down in 2010 and the Church had gone away to lick it's wounds.
Fat chance, they have returned back on the same evil old plan. This is not ancient history, an abusive Church continues, sick to its very core. I'm talking about the ArchiAssociation of the Eucharist here, the very core of the creed, riddled with evil with the full cooperation of the Vatican.
Roma delenda est.

Subject: RE: BS: Dead babies and Tuam Bon Secours nuns
From: Stu
Date: 06 Jun 14 - 06:41 AM

"Open your friggin' eyes."

Here's the fundamental problem with discussing anything with religious people; their default position is EVERYONE who doesn't agree with them is wrong, otherwise they would have to accept their faith might be misplaced . . . and that would imply the possibility of God not existing, something they incapable of accepting if they are true believers.

I would suggest the reason for the rejection of established, instutionalised religion is philosophical as well as ideological, and depend on whether one believes the individual is ultimately responsible and answerable for their own actions regardless, and whether in time we are capable of understanding that past actions have consequences to this day.

Would you let a Concentration Camp guard off because he's old? Would you tell everyone in the North of Ireland to forget about the troubles because some of it happened in the 1970s?

I would suggest you might want to open your friggin' mind.

Subject: RE: BS: Dead babies and Tuam Bon Secours nuns
From: GUEST
Date: 06 Jun 14 - 06:48 AM

Francis' relationship with the Mothers of the Square of 5th May says it all. Betrayal.

Subject: RE: BS: Dead babies and Tuam Bon Secours nuns
From: GUEST,Musket
Date: 06 Jun 14 - 07:01 AM

I don't know about nuns Joe but I seem to be on the side of the angels...

I only see in black and white? I need to study grey?

Bollocks. I can see a rainbow and that's a hell of a lot more than the limitations of superstitious misogynists and homophobes.

You don't even read my posts if your latest observations are anything to go by. My plea for meaningful equality means everybody has a stake. However, Jesus isn't a stakeholder. If you worship him fine, but don't try to inject his bible into reality. That's how you get callous nuns, buggering priests and gilded Vatican halls.

Your simplistic condemnation of rational thought is nearer the doctrine of your black hooded priests than that of a decent chap who claims to question doctrine.

Subject: RE: BS: Dead babies and Tuam Bon Secours nuns
From: Jim Carroll
Date: 06 Jun 14 - 08:07 AM

"Pupils in Ireland still do the choices my parents had "
Sorry - should read "Pupils in Ireland still do not have the choices my parents had"
Jim Carroll

Subject: RE: BS: Dead babies and Tuam Bon Secours nuns
From: GUEST,mg
Date: 06 Jun 14 - 02:54 PM

I am contemplating what Susan Lohan said in the Irish Examiner I believe...she runs an adoption rights organization. She said..and I had never heard this proposed before..that these mother and child institutions..or mother sans child and child sans mother...were set up to keep the young women from going to England and having babies adopted by Protestants. So they literally imprisoned them.

I had wonderful nuns in grade school, but I can absolutely imagine some of my high school ones throwing bodies into a septic tank because someone told them to. And they might have made us do it too and we might have done it.

And read all you can about Vatican finances..read up on BIshop or AB Marcincus and his thrall over Pope Paul VI. Read about the Mafia deaths. Read everything about the death of Pope John Paul I. You don't need to read any conspiracy theory stuff..just read the lists of people who died..cardinals dropping dead at Mass..other cardinals being killed by parts of buildings falling on them. THis stuff can be verified I hope..I am not going to. I am convinced that if we unravel the mysterious death of this pope a lot will unravel. I think that the church needs to get the hell out of Italy once and for all..they will never get rid of Mafia connections otherwise.. and go way way back...Ireland and its offshoots in Australia and US could go back to Celtic Christianity or Catholicism. Then we could weave little crosses out of grasses and we could visit holy wells and leave tokens behind (which I did at St. Gobnit's well recently) and have chants for churning butter etc...

Subject: RE: BS: Dead babies and Tuam Bon Secours nuns
From: BrendanB
Date: 06 Jun 14 - 05:20 PM

OK, I am a Catholic and I am planning to stay a Catholic. That said, the vileness in Tuam and the dismissiveness of both the clergy and the order of nuns is obscene and sickening. If the Irish state has even the semblance of a backbone it will pursue this case vigorously, identify the guilty, name names and prosecute anyone who had criminal involvement. Do you think they will? No, me neither.
But Catholicism is not defined by the actions of an individual be they pope or pauper. Catholicism is a set of principles and of standards which adherents have failed to live up to since the inception of Christianity. I truly believe that Judas Iscariot believed his actions were righteous.
The church establishment has warped and twisted and undermined the Christian message for hundreds of years. But you know what? Screw the church establishment. My Catholicism resides in the goodness, decency and sanctity of my fellow Catholics, the ones who care for the vulnerable, stand up for the friendless, and speak out for what they believe to be right. I fail on a daily basis, I'm a shit Catholic. Knowing that I weep when I see the church powerful crap on decency - not Catholic decency, just ordinary, common, human decency.
Tuam, abuse of children by priests, collaboration with the nazis by the Vatican, the Magdalen laundries, the use of Catholicism to veil a thousand acts of wickedness - these are all vile and indefensible.   But they are the actions of fallible people. The standards and principles of Catholicism condemn them far more than any human agency can.
When you attack someone like Joe Offer for his beliefs you are looking 180 degrees in the wrong direction. I suspect that his grief and pain regarding Tuam is more raw and painful than yours because of his loyalty to a faith that has been besmirched by others, and yet he still seeks to live out that faith, truly and honourably.

Joe, I am sorry if I misrepresent you.

Subject: RE: BS: Dead babies and Tuam Bon Secours nuns
From: Joe Offer
Date: 06 Jun 14 - 06:30 PM

Joe: "I just don't buy this idea of "brainwashing"

Jim: Jesuit maxim
"Give me a child for for his first seven years and I'll give you the man"
The brainwashing of someone who has no choice - a child

Well, gee, Jim, I always thought it meant that if you instill a love of learning in a child before the age of seven, he/she will have a lifelong love of learning.

I just haven't come across all these "brainwashed" people you people talk about. Maybe you're watching too many zombie movies, or something (or maybe Dawkins movies - same thing ;-)).

---

Musket says: And until they stop being misogynist and homophobic, they are to be dismissed and ignored in totality by respectable citizens.

Ah, but Musket, not all religious people are misogynist or homophobic. I'm a religious person, you know; and I and most religious people I respect, share your disdain for misogynists and homophobes. How does that fit into your equation?

And Musket sez: Your simplistic condemnation of rational thought is nearer the doctrine of your black hooded priests than that of a decent chap who claims to question doctrine.
Damn! And all this time I thought I've been a big fan of rational thought! Please point out this "simplistic condemnation" of mine.

Richard Bridge says" The alliance between the roman catholic church and the Irish state has been a terrible, terrible source of oppression. I think I could agree with that. And, as somebody says above, the same is true for Poland. There's bound to be trouble any time the vast majority of citizens in a nation belongs to the same religious group. Religious people are much better-behaved when they're the minority.

CS says: Any serious institutional crime, and especially one that is within the living memory of those who may have suffered from it, is worthy of pursuing in court.

I believe that atonement for great acts of evil, is a cathartic - psychological and even spiritual - necessity for both the individual victims and the collective victims (ie: society as a whole) of those corrupt and powerful organisations that perpetrated them with impunity. I think that is a very wise statement, and worth repeating.

Stu says: Here's the fundamental problem with discussing anything with religious people; their default position is EVERYONE who doesn't agree with them is wrong, otherwise they would have to accept their faith might be misplaced . . . and that would imply the possibility of God not existing, something they incapable of accepting if they are true believers.
I would suggest the reason for the rejection of established, instutionalised religion is philosophical as well as ideological, and depend on whether one believes the individual is ultimately responsible and answerable for their own actions regardless, and whether in time we are capable of understanding that past actions have consequences to this day. Stu, what you and Musket don't seem to comprehend, is that a vast number of religious people don't think in the way you describe. Every day, I acknowledge the possibility that God doesn't exist - that keeps me honest. I think that everyone who doesn't agree with me, has a perspective different from mine - and it may well be that both of us are right. Oh, and did you know that "the individual is ultimately responsible and answerable for their own actions" is the underlying principle of all Catholic moral teaching?

I happen to agree with most of the things that most of the people have said above. What I cannot agree with, are the blanket statements, the constant insistence that all religion is the same, that religious instruction or any instruction by religious people on any subject is "brainwashing," or that there is something inherently evil in all religion and that the day must come soon when all religion is abolished.

As in all of these Mudcat religious discussions, religion ends up being defined in very narrow, fundamentalist terms as some kind of mind control. People go on and on and on about the bad things that happen in churches - and most of these are true and are indeed deplorable. I see deplorable things happen in churches a lot more often than I'd like to - but I also know the other side. My experience in the Catholic Church is about 90 percent good and ten percent bad, which I don't think is a bad balance. I feel a great obligation to oppose that ten percent with all my power, and I do my best. I certainly don't deny all those bad things, and I don't defend them.

In 16 years of Catholic education (including 8 years of seminary), I did not experience anything like the horror stories so often conveyed here. I think I got an excellent education and that I learned to think for myself early on - and most of the Catholic-educated people I know, are the same. This accusation of "brainwashing" seems preposterous to me.

So, when you make your blanket statements, be careful. There's a damn good chance that many religious groups and many religious people are not as you describe. They may be as rational and intelligent and tolerant as you are - maybe more so.

As I said above, open your friggin' eyes.

-Joe Offer-