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BS: Dead babies and Tuam Bon Secours nuns
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Subject: RE: BS: Dead babies and Tuam Bon Secours nuns From: Joe Offer Date: 07 Jun 14 - 10:45 PM Kenny, you say the Dawkins propaganda against the Catholic Church is "a rehash of old statements made by the reformed churches." Since Dawkins is a born-again atheist, he might not be very happy with your comparison. I get the impression that the Dawkins stuff is very similar to the comic book style anti-Catholic tracts from born-again Chick Publications, which feature cartoons of priests and nuns doing horrible things to righteous Christians. These tracts were very popular in the 1980s. They seem less popular now, but they're still in print. I think we're probably better off giving people the benefit of the doubt, and accepting the fact that people are people - usually flawed, but probably not half as bad as we think they are. -Joe- |
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Subject: RE: BS: Dead babies and Tuam Bon Secours nuns From: Big Al Whittle Date: 07 Jun 14 - 11:29 PM yes perhaps they were like Michael caine in cider house rules - but I doubt it joe. those kids were starved, and they were in an institution with bad track record. nice nuns like the ones that you met in ireland are not a new thing. they've always been nice. they were nice to me when I was a kid. later in life I gigged their retirement homes - they were never less than lovely to me. but I think you have to recognise that with presentnews from Tuam - you appear to these people as defending the indefensible. its like the war crimes in japan, after the war. innocent people are going to get hanged in the present climate. its unavoidable. don't hurt yourself defending these men, |
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Subject: RE: BS: Dead babies and Tuam Bon Secours nuns From: Joe Offer Date: 07 Jun 14 - 11:40 PM those kids were starved, and they were in an institution with bad track record. No question about it, Al. It's becoming evident that the speculation about 796 bodies in a septic tank is grossly incorrect, but it's clear that the Tuam mother-baby home was a bad place, and that children died unnecessarily because of poor conditions there and at other institutions. Still, I think that a balanced, truthful study of all such institutions is warranted. One would think that there must have been some institutions where unwed Irish mothers were treated well. I haven't found any - but of course, those aren't the ones that get in the news...or the Internet forums. -Joe- |
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Subject: RE: BS: Dead babies and Tuam Bon Secours nuns From: Jim Carroll Date: 08 Jun 14 - 03:46 AM "But no, this is a report about another home in another county. " I posted a letter from the animated and extremely angry correspondence that is taking place in the Irish Times at present on the Tuam Home - the correspondent claims, I believe quite rightly, that the events in both Galway and Tuam were examples of how many of these homes operated, with a total disregard for the well-being of the children in their care - this was certainly the case in the Magdalene Laundries and the Industrial Schools. Much of the brutality was a judgement on and punishment for the "sins" of people who stepped outside the strict moral codes of the Church - the two Magdalene sisters who were interviewed last year summed that judgement up perfectly with their "the sweepings of the street". It was not confined to Tuam or Bessborough, it was a general judgement on the morality of all. Of course there are good nuns and priests; Ireland is the most charitable country I have even encountered, and many of those charities, though sometimes patronising, are run by the church, or by dedicated religion-driven people - the world would be a much worse place without them. My attitude towards the church and religion is that it should be confined, by law, to spiritual matters alone; no church should have active influence in either the running of any country or the education of children. Religion, like politics, should be a personal choice made by sentient human beings, not drummed into childrens minds from birth as fact - that is the "brainwashing" aspect of all religions, summed up perfectly in the Jesuit boast. The Church, AS AN INSTITUTION , has proved itself totally untrustworthy when it comes to the education of children, and religion is a speculative belief that relies entirely on blind trust (faith) and obedience, rather than factual evidence, so no individual body should ever have the right to teach it to children as fact (especially when it comes under so many competitive and conflicting 'brand labels'. The root cause of many of the world's problems today are religion and Church inspired (go and look at some of the Muslim hate threads if you doubt this). The Tuam affair has been appallingly sidetracked by the 'septic tank' issue - a product of headline grabbing sensationalism by our 'free press'. Catherine Corless's interview in The Irish Times shows how her researches at Tuam have been distorted out of all proportion by many of the 'bumfodder' newspapers, in order to increase sales. I raised the matter only in response to your appalling suggestion that any place designed to dump our shit is a suitable one to dispose of maltreated children - it reduced considerably the respect I otherwise hold for you, in spite of past differences. Jim Carroll This is one of the more intelligent and thought-provoking contributions to the manner in which the children were buried - from the Irish Times letter page yesterday. "Sir, - The media should be very wary of using the term "septic tank" to describe the structure containing the child burials at St Mary's mother-and-child home at Tuam. It is offensive and hurtful to all those involved. The structure as described is much more likely to be a shaft burial vault, a common method of burial used in the recent past and still used today in many part of Europe. In the 19th century, deep brick-lined shafts were constructed and covered with a large slab which often doubled as a flatly laid headstone. These were common in 19th-century urban cemeteries. The stone could be temporarily removed to allow the addition of additional coffined burials to the vault. Such tombs are still used extensively in Mediterranean countries. I recently saw such structures being constructed in a churchyard in Croatia. The shaft was made of concrete blocks, plastered internally and roofed with large concrete slabs. Many maternity hospitals in Ireland had a communal burial place for stillborn children or those who died soon after birth. These were sometimes in a nearby graveyard but more often in a special area within the grounds of the hospital. It was not a tradition until very recently to return such deceased infants to parents for taking back to family burial places. Until proved otherwise, the burial structure at Tuam should be described as a communal burial vault. - Yours, etc, Dr FINBAR McCORMICK School of Geography, Archaeology and Palaeoecology, University Road, Queen's University, Belfast." |
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Subject: RE: BS: Dead babies and Tuam Bon Secours nuns From: GUEST,Musket Date: 08 Jun 14 - 05:24 AM Are you sure Ireland went from UK rule to self determination? It has always been my observation that it went from joint UK / Vatican rule to just Vatican. I wondered how long before superstitious nutters started blaming Darwin and his "followers." Rational people don't need to follow and obey fuck all. Least of all a Prof who just happens to speak sense. This is nothing to do with imaginary friends. It is, as we see with bastardisation of Islam these days, criminals using fear and superstition of ill educated and vulnerable people to allow them to get away with their awful crimes against humanity. Follow the fucking money if you want to know why. |
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Subject: RE: BS: Dead babies and Tuam Bon Secours nuns From: Jim Carroll Date: 08 Jun 14 - 06:12 AM "It has always been my observation that it went from joint UK / Vatican rule to just Vatican." The clerical abuse scandal has all but put paid to that situation. The Church was forced to issue threats of excommunication to politicians who voted in favour of the new (insipid) laws on pregnancy termination. Fifteen years ago no such bill would have been possible and even today it took the death of a young woman due to religion influenced practices to produce the compromises. Going - going - but not yet gone! Jim Carroll |
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Subject: RE: BS: Dead babies and Tuam Bon Secours nuns From: akenaton Date: 08 Jun 14 - 06:29 AM It appears to me that any investigation as to the nature of the deaths of the children, or if and to whom blame is to be attributed, is being superseded by the screeching of vultures perched on the corpse of religion. Joe is right, there is good and bad everywhere, and historically there has been a lot of bad in all organised religion, but taken as a piece, Christianity has contributed greatly to the health and wellbeing of society. A purely secular society would be another step on the road to the deification of "self" which we see looming larger every day. I sense the old political agenda at work; as I remarked earlier the "liberals" real target is the Church and its destruction....the last bastion of conservatism. I am a socialist but it has become obvious to me that most conservative social values are beneficial and indeed necessary in todays rootless and hopeless society. |
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Subject: RE: BS: Dead babies and Tuam Bon Secours nuns From: Musket Date: 08 Jun 14 - 06:33 AM Threatening politicians with excommunication for exercising the will of the people and human rights... Why would the politicians be concerned about that? I hear rational people ask.. Are you sure church membership is a take it or leave it adult choice Joe? Joe asked if anyone had read the book or seen the film Philomena. I had already used it to argue my point. Are you sure you have read it Joe? Did you not feel Philomena was vulnerable when in light of the evidence, the callous disregard for her and her son and all the rotten rest of it, she still had misgivings about questioning the Catholic Church and its works? The point, especially the film point Steve Coogan made, was the hold the church has on people allows such things to happen. Brainwashing from birth, small children forced to wear brides costumes in a grotesque ritual, mea culpa, Papal infallibility.... Ordinary people who choose to follow the faith should be asking why their faith is being distorted by criminals, even now. I notice the ex head Catholic in Scotland has been whisked off to somewhere abroad where the police here can't find him, for fucks sake, and that was just covering up for abusing boys, a simple sin by their standards. That he was threatening the government over gay marriage just before being exposed was worthy of a grim smile on the part of decent people. |
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Subject: RE: BS: Dead babies and Tuam Bon Secours nuns From: Stu Date: 08 Jun 14 - 06:59 AM "...is being superseded by the screeching of vultures perched on the corpse of religion." So religion is dead already then? Crikey. |
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Subject: RE: BS: Dead babies and Tuam Bon Secours nuns From: MGM·Lion Date: 08 Jun 14 - 07:05 AM R I P But ~~~ where? |
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Subject: RE: BS: Dead babies and Tuam Bon Secours nuns From: GUEST,"Hidden behind" Date: 08 Jun 14 - 09:44 AM Joe, whether or not those 796 are all on that lot or not is relatively immaterial. It's how they died which isn't. It's that wherever they are, they where treated as rubbish - if not, they'd have marked graves. Those 796 are real deaths, because they have real death certificates showing real abuse. And the real Church shows a real lack of engagement in doing anything about it. Which I find really disgusting. |
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Subject: RE: BS: Dead babies and Tuam Bon Secours nuns From: Musket Date: 08 Jun 14 - 09:46 AM Bigotry makes strange bedfellows.... |
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Subject: RE: BS: Dead babies and Tuam Bon Secours nuns From: Rapparee Date: 08 Jun 14 - 10:43 AM There's a former mental hospital 20 miles away that has a field of unmarked graves. Many prisons,including some in Britain and Ireland; many concentration camps, including some in South Africa; many prison camps, including some scattered across the Pacific -- and don't forget that even today in some areas of Europe bones are removed from a grave in a churchyard and the grave reused. The bones of babies and children decompose faster than those of adult (soil, weather, etc. being equal). But everyone who has ever lived, is living, or will live will decompose and someone else will be buried in their dust. Meménto, homo, quia pulvis es, et in púlverem revertéris. Or to put it another way: Reincarnation Wallace Mcrae "What does Reincarnation mean?" A cowpoke asked his friend. His pal replied, "It happens when Yer life has reached its end. They comb yer hair, and warsh yer neck, And clean yer fingernails, And lay you in a padded box Away from life's travails." "The box and you goes in a hole, That's been dug into the ground. Reincarnation starts in when Yore planted 'neath a mound. Them clods melt down, just like yer box, And you who is inside. And then yore just beginnin' on Yer transformation ride." "In a while, the grass'll grow Upon yer rendered mound. Till some day on yer moldered grave A lonely flower is found. And say a hoss should wander by And graze upon this flower That once wuz you, but now's become Yer vegetative bower." "The posy that the hoss done ate Up, with his other feed, Makes bone, and fat, and muscle Essential to the steed, But some is left that he can't use And so it passes through, And finally lays upon the ground This thing, that once wuz you." "Then say, by chance, I wanders by And sees this upon the ground, And I ponders, and I wonders at, This object that I found. I thinks of reincarnation, Of life and death, and such, And come away concludin': 'Slim, You ain't changed, all that much.'" |
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Subject: RE: BS: Dead babies and Tuam Bon Secours nuns From: Ed T Date: 08 Jun 14 - 11:11 AM "I don't quite understand what you're trying to say, Ed. If you Google anti-abortion burial, you'll find that at least in the U.S., anti-abortion activists make a big deal of burying the remains of fetuses they can get their hands on. Whether they do it out of respect or for propaganda purposes, is a matter of debate. " Joe O, my comment was not focused on the organized anti abortion movement, which I would expect to be extreme and political. I was reflecting more on attitudes to the treatment of the remains of the unborn in the general population. An example of mixed messages is the public displays of a number of fetuses in bottles by a RC university (the Loyola Specimens) in a human development display. Personally, I find it distasteful to publically display any human remains, in a museum, or elsewhere. Even open caskets at wakes are a "turn off" to me. The link below provides an interesting historical perspective on religious attitudes towards the unborn. RC history and abortion debate |
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Subject: RE: BS: Dead babies and Tuam Bon Secours nuns From: Ed T Date: 08 Jun 14 - 11:19 AM Here is the loyola fetus display information-it was refered to in the book link I provided yesterday. I realize it was awhile ago, and only one incident. But, as an example of attitudes, have we moved away from the sentiment that fueled this display that much since then? Maybe yes, possibly no. loyola fetus display |
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Subject: RE: BS: Dead babies and Tuam Bon Secours nuns From: akenaton Date: 08 Jun 14 - 12:25 PM "UK hospitals burn 10,000 stillborn an foetal babies amongst the rubbish" The Telegraph. |
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Subject: RE: BS: Dead babies and Tuam Bon Secours nuns From: Q (Frank Staplin) Date: 08 Jun 14 - 12:33 PM Joe, every religious group exercises "brainwashing" upon its children. Certainly the Catechism of the RC falls into this bracket. The Profession of the Faith The Celebration of the Christian Mystery Life in Christ Christian Prayer I remember the Catholic children being prepared for Communion and their examination by the brothers and priests in the Archdiocese of Santa Fe. As children of Protestant parents (or agnostic parents, in my case) we were strongly aware of the separation that developed, two "cultures" with separate schools and later would meet in business but not socially. Of course there also was a racial element in this city, the one being Hispanic, the other composed of "Anglos" This separation is still there although it has been moderated; here in Calgary, as in Santa Fe, there are two school systems (both public in Calgary), one for Catholics, the other for protestants and others. The children meet at inter-school events, but otherwise have little interaction until they are adult. This has nothing to do with the horrors of the Irish cistern, in which case I largely agree with Joe. Look into the Nineteenth century records in the U. S. and Canada, not easy to find, but comparable cases of mass neglect are evident. |
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Subject: RE: BS: Dead babies and Tuam Bon Secours nuns From: GUEST,Peter Laban Date: 08 Jun 14 - 01:25 PM Just some developments: The focus seems to be shifting from Tuam and the alleged 'septic tank' burials to the wider issue of mother and baby homes. Archbishop Diarmuid Martin has called for a full inquiry, saying that if there was anything wrong in Tuam, it is likely the same problems existed in the homes. In this light it has been in the news that while the mortality rates in Tuam were atrocious (over 30%), those in some other homes like Bessborough were much worse (50% and over). The situation surrounding the burials is developing as well as the possibility of burials going back as far as the famine (many mother and baby homes occupied former workhouses) is being looked at. |
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Subject: RE: BS: Dead babies and Tuam Bon Secours nuns From: GUEST,Raggytash Date: 08 Jun 14 - 01:49 PM Recommended reading for many of you good people John B Keane's the Bodhran Maker. A short and very powerful view of the power of the church. |
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Subject: RE: BS: Dead babies and Tuam Bon Secours nuns From: Musket Date: 08 Jun 14 - 02:43 PM Whilst religious leaders line up to defend the past, The Dept of Health in The UK is agonising over whether to give "dead person" status to aborted foetus parts. It puts it in perspective. This thread is about real people up to nine years old and at the same time, the medical world is discussing what was previously regarded as pathology waste in its other status as a life that wasn't. I find it difficult to reconcile the two moral approaches. I am involved in the latter and am helping with the guidelines. Whilst working on it this afternoon, (including watching a documentary from the other month) I wondered how our ethics dilemma would approach the practice of throwing babies and children you had starved into a cesspit. The more I think, the more I condemn the actions of these wicked animals. Anybody who seeks to "put it in perspective" or "not judge the actions of recent memory" may wish to think on the enormity of the mass grave and crimes against humanity. Whilst those who find parallels with the foetal remains debate possibly have the excuse of not understanding what they read. |
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Subject: RE: BS: Dead babies and Tuam Bon Secours nuns From: GUEST Date: 08 Jun 14 - 02:51 PM Then we will all 'ave 'et up thee... But we still wait for any kind of indication from Petitbonum (the Roman camp) that they take the point that this abuse muct be nailed internally as well as externally. They're the only people who really know, and must require those inside their number who do to cease and desist from this schtay schtumm attitude and tell us, honesty 101. Or are they waiting for the evidence to be dragged out kicking and screaming? To some extent I'm starting to think this is actually a good thing. It'll force the entire faith to get away from the ineffeable and get effing real. There is a reality to practical faith, and if the Churches start to demonstrate that they're something more than Mothers Unions, some good may yet come from it. It's the opportunity to knock turn holy dogma into holey dogma, to get away from Rules and into truth. |
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Subject: RE: BS: Dead babies and Tuam Bon Secours nuns From: Greg F. Date: 08 Jun 14 - 05:05 PM Look into the Nineteenth century records in the U. S. and Canada, not easy to find, but comparable cases of mass neglect are evident. Oh well, what the nuns did is perfectyly OK, then, innit? Even if it was dona in the mid-20th Century. |
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Subject: RE: BS: Dead babies and Tuam Bon Secours nuns From: Joe Offer Date: 08 Jun 14 - 11:04 PM Gee, I took the day off and went to Mass in the morning and a singaround in afternoon. I wondered how much there would be to respond to. Jim Carroll: I raised the matter only in response to your appalling suggestion that any place designed to dump our shit is a suitable one to dispose of maltreated children - it reduced considerably the respect I otherwise hold for you, in spite of past differences. Jim, the septic tank at my house looks almost exactly like the concrete vaults that I have seen coffins lowered into many, many times. If you build it and call it a "concrete vault," then it can be used as either a burial vault or a septic tank. If you need screws for a project, you don't necessarily have to have separate screws for sewage projects - you may well be able to use the same screws one might use to build a coffin....except for the fact that Jim Carroll might be offended. But the fact of the matter is that a concrete vault, is a concrete vault - and it may be used for many purposes. As I said above, however, I suspect that the twenty skeletons may indeed have been buried somewhere on the property, and then reburied later in an empty tank on the property that may well have been a septic or water tank. The witness's words - "Thrown in there," "all this way and that way" - appear to describe what might happen with remains dug up from other locations and reburied. Otherwise, bodies would have been put in a mass grave individually, and would have remained more intact. Jim, if you call the vault a septic tank (and especially if it has been used as a septic tank), then the idea of its use for the bodies is indeed appalling. But if you call the vault a vault and don't build it for a specific use, what's the difference? That's information we just don't know yet, so getting appalled is rather silly. But my guess it that the remains might well indeed have been found in graves and then dumped in a septic tank in the process of clearing the property for redevelopment - and that would indeed have been appalling, even if it were done by workmen after the nuns were long gone and thereby depriving somebody of an opportunity for anti-religious propaganda. But that's information we just don't know yet, so getting appalled is rather silly. Musket says: Are you sure Ireland went from UK rule to self determination? It has always been my observation that it went from joint UK / Vatican rule to just Vatican. I think you're talking your party line, Musket, and I really don;t think you know what you're talking about. I am seminary-educated, and I've been a Catholic all my life, and I have studied Catholic Church politics all my life. And what I have to say about Catholic Church politics is not complimentary, and it is disturbing to many Catholics I've explained things to. But that fact that what I say is disturbing and not seen as complimentary for the most part, is an indication that what I have to say may be accurate. There are national Catholic Church structures in all nations where there are significant numbers of Catholics. For the most part, these national churches are loose affiliations of dioceses, and they try to work with the Vatican. But in some nations, the national churches are far stronger, closed operations - and these national churches are only very loosely controlled by the Vatican. These churches stick very close to doctrine, but doctrine really hasn't changed much since the Council of Nicaea in 325 AD. But other than adhering strictly to the Nicene Creed of 325, these national churches are mostly on their own. The three strongest national churches I know of, are Poland, the Philippines, and Ireland - and the Catholic Church in Ireland is by far the strongest national church within the entire Catholic Church. The Vatican just throws up its hands and lets Ireland do what Ireland does. Ireland has the most severe variety of Catholicism there is - but it's all Irish. I know Irish priests who tell me that the severity came from Jansenists that the British rulers imported from northern France to staff the world's largest seminary, built by the English for the Catholics of Ireland. Don't know if I buy that story. As far as I can see, the Irish Catholic Church has been completely controlled by Irish-born priests and bishops and nuns who were born and raised by Irish Irish parents, not by the Vatican. Now, Musket's propaganda may have taught him that all Catholics march in lockstep with the Vatican, but that rigidity is simply not true. The organization is much looser and much more decentralized. And it had almost no control over Ireland at all until international reaction to the recent scandals forced Benedict XVI to take at least partial control over the Catholic hierarchy in Ireland. But until then, Ireland was a closed shop. I have seen some good in Catholic Church in Ireland, particularly in the Sisters of Mercy convents I visited; but my overall impression of Irish Catholicism is very negative. It's dominated by angry, severe people that even the priests are afraid of. The Catholic Church in Ireland is sick - there's no doubt about it. But it's controlled by the Irish, not by the Vatican. And it's the Irish Catholic Church that must be held to answer for scandals like Tuam, not the Vatican. Ed T says he was reflecting more on attitudes to the treatment of the remains of the unborn in the general population. I tend to agree with you, Ed. Display of human remains, whether they died before birth or afterwards, must be done only if absolutely necessary and only with absolute dignity. This also applies to the mummies of ancient Egyptians and the remains of aboriginal peoples. In some ways, I'd be just as happy seeing replicas in museums in most circumstances; but my seeing these remains allows me to honor them, even if other museum visitors don't view these remains as sacred. Auschwitz has displays of entire rooms of human hair and human teeth - seeing those is an experience I'll ponder for the rest of my life. Q says: Joe, every religious group exercises "brainwashing" upon its children. Certainly the Catechism of the RC falls into this bracket. The Profession of the Faith, The Celebration of the Christian Mystery, Life in Christ, Christian Prayer (the four main divisions of the Catechism of the Catholic Church) Q, "brainwashing" is a propaganda word. My understanding is that it became popular during the early years of the Cold War, when we were told the godless Communists forced Communist ideology on their helpless victims, so that the victims would be able to think nothing other than what the Communists wanted them to think. The Catechism of the Catholic Church was published in the early 1990s as the successor to the 16th-century Catechism of Trent. It is a fairly comprehensive statement of the beliefs and practices and traditions of the Catholic Church. It is not meant for children, and it is not meant to be memorized, as the 20th-century American Baltimore Catechism was used until about 1970. Now, the born-again atheist propagandists will tell you that if I dare to teach my children about the beliefs and practices and traditions of my church and if I expose my children to church rituals, I am "brainwashing" them. Well, I mustn't have been very effective at brainwashing then. I sent my three children to Catholic elementary and high schools. I think they got an excellent education. They're all good people and they believe in music and in the Democratic Party, but they have rarely set foot in a church since they finished school. I've been a Catholic religious education teacher almost continuously since 1966, and this is what happened to my own children. Did I brainwash them? I'm sorry, but all of that propaganda about brainwashing is simply that - propaganda - just like the propaganda we heard about the Soviets brainwashing their "victims." "Hidden Behind" says: And the real Church shows a real lack of engagement in doing anything about it. Which I find really disgusting. In response to that, allow me to refer you to part of a post above from Peter Laban: The focus seems to be shifting from Tuam and the alleged 'septic tank' burials to the wider issue of mother and baby homes. Archbishop Diarmuid Martin has called for a full inquiry, saying that if there was anything wrong in Tuam, it is likely the same problems existed in the homes. In this light it has been in the news that while the mortality rates in Tuam were atrocious (over 30%), those in some other homes like Bessborough were much worse (50% and over). Archbishop Diarmuid Martin is the Archbishop of Dublin and Primate of Ireland. He's one Irish bishop who served most of his career to the Vatican. He was sent to Dublin in 2003 and became Archbishop on his predecessor's resignation in 2004. He's been tasked with cleaning up the mess, and it seems he's generally been doing a pretty good job of it. There's no doubt that the Catholic Church of Ireland needs to be cleaned up. The industrial schools and mother-and-baby homes and Magdalene laundries, as well as the molestation of children by priests, are horrible, horrible offenses. -Joe Offer- P.S. Somebody above asked if I had seen the movie or read the book Philomena. No, I haven't. I was wondering if I should. |
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Subject: RE: BS: Dead babies and Tuam Bon Secours nuns From: Joe Offer Date: 08 Jun 14 - 11:18 PM Post from Greg F:
Posted By: Greg F. 08-Jun-14 - 05:05 PM Thread Name: BS: Dead babies and Tuam Bon Secours nuns Subject: RE: BS: Dead babies and Tuam Bon Secours nuns
Look into the Nineteenth century records in the U. S. and Canada, not easy to find, but comparable cases of mass neglect are evident. ...and what, Greg, is the value of the post like that? It's a bigoted insult, that's what it is. Of course all such atrocities are wrong, no matter who commits them. All of them must be studied and responded to, not just those committed by people of religions or nationalities you don't happen to like. -Joe Offer- |
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Subject: RE: BS: Dead babies and Tuam Bon Secours nuns From: GUEST,Musket Date: 09 Jun 14 - 01:26 AM I suppose when you set yourself up on these threads to defend the metaphysical, it becomes incumbent upon you to defend the indefensible too when coming from the same source. You know, even if you took the emotive imagery of the septic tank away, the errr.. rather high mortality rate of children doesn't show this particular catholic public service in a good light. The lies and cover ups around it seem to drift their way up the hierarchy of the organisation. The church tells people they go to a mythical heaven and having got people to believe it, say that babies not baptised don't get to join them there. You don't need to invoke the Cold War to invoke brainwashing as a concept. To a spaceman looking in, or a person devoid of superstition for that matter, it doesn't seem the sort of thing to try and defend. These babies and small children died at a time most Mudcat members were babies and small children. |
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Subject: RE: BS: Dead babies and Tuam Bon Secours nuns From: Joe Offer Date: 09 Jun 14 - 01:51 AM There's no defense, Musket - and apparently Tuam was not the worst of these mother-and-baby homes. I wouldn't dream of attempting to defend these homes, or the industrial schools, or the Magdalene Laundries - or the priests who molested children. But I do believe that the entire situation must be studied methodically and honestly. There's no room here for hysteria. We need to have a real understanding of the situation. We need to know what really happened. Trumped-up charges of 796 bodies dumped into a septic tank, simply serve to obscure the important truth that these institutions systematically mistreated children. On the Mother/Baby Home Research group on Facebook, Catherine Corless said she did her research and collected death certificates so a memorial could be erected at the graveyard at the Tuam home, listing the names of the children who were buried there. So, it appears that there is a graveyard, but the graves are unmarked or inadequately marked. Corless did a lot of good research into the story of the Tuam home and conditions there, and it appears that conditions were certainly poor. If you have Facebook this link should get you to the group. Take the time to read what Corless wrote. -Joe- |
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Subject: RE: BS: Dead babies and Tuam Bon Secours nuns From: Jim Carroll Date: 09 Jun 14 - 03:42 AM "Jim, the septic tank at my house looks almost exactly like the concrete vaults that I have seen coffins" Joe, Personally, I don't give a rat's arse what happens too my remains when I shuffle off this mortal coil - I once suggested to our publican/undertaker that I would be happy to be cremated and my ashes placed in one of his ashtrays and put on his windowsill to enable me to spend more time in a place that gave me a great deal of pleasure in life. That apparently is not the case with you Catholics, who make far more of death and burial than I do. P placing children, in death, in shit-holes (no matter how magnificent), after they have suffered extreme abuse and neglect throughout their short lives, seems to me the final indignity - the equivalent of spitting on their maltreated corpses for the "sinners" they were. I do not not "call these vaults" anything; I took the trouble to point out the historical possibilities of what they might be. One of the suggestions made regarding Tuam is that the some of the bodies may not have been inmates of the home, but Famine victims from earlier times. Hopefully, this is the case, even thought the Famine carries with it examples of hatred and neglect to possible genocidal proportions - this also has been under examination as part of our history over the lat decade. All of these examples of extreme cruelty and neglect: clerical child abuse and, the Magdalene Laundries, the brutality of the industrial schools and now emerging as an issue, the sale of illegitimate children to wealthy Americans following the Philomena Lee film; raise the one question - the suitability of the church as an influential body to be given access to and influence over children, and people's lives in general. A new film, 'Jimmy's hall', raises the a question that interests me deeply; that of the influence of the church over the music I have been involved with for most of my life. Don't you dare attribute a "project" to me - I am not a 'practicing' atheist any more than I am a practicing believer. I will comment on these incidents as they come up as a 'practicing' humanitarian who finds the church very much wanting in this matter - that is the extent of my "project" - nothing more. Would that your church had more humanitarians honest enough to examine their own sordid past, without feeling the need to make excuses and point the finger elsewhere. Jim Carroll |
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Subject: RE: BS: Dead babies and Tuam Bon Secours nuns From: Musket Date: 09 Jun 14 - 09:13 AM I am reasonable Joe. I do not see this as an opportunity to rant against churches, despite your thoughts otherwise. I am enraged by the early attempts by the church authorities to play it down until they realised it wouldn't stay quiet. Then and only then, contrition and accepting historic responsibility. Last year for a short while, I was interim CEO of a hospital trust. Our people uncovered a mistake, not a planned crime, but a mistake that was made 20 years ago and had a catastrophic effect on a patient. We gave a press conference, I apologised on behalf of the trust and the poor governance, one off wrong clinical decision and lack of candour on the part of those responsible at the time. I expect nothing less from those giving the catholic "brand licence" now concerning institutions in their name then. Candour and regret may not bring people back, but it helps the healing process. In the meantime, ask not why babies were thrown into a cesspit (sub human in the eyes of the nuns is the best suggestion to date) but how living children and babies came to die in such huge numbers at a time when social care, welfare and healthcare was universally available. Ask what doctrine was invoked in order to sustain such sub standard care? Question how that doctrine has altered. Has it? How? What is in place to prevent this happening in a church mission in deepest Amazon? Deepest County Clare for that matter... |
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Subject: RE: BS: Dead babies and Tuam Bon Secours nuns From: Greg F. Date: 09 Jun 14 - 10:34 AM and what, Greg, is the value of the post like that? Well, Joe, what was the point of Q's lame apologia that preceeded it? It's a bigoted insult, that's what it is. Now you're just being silly, Joe. |
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Subject: RE: BS: Dead babies and Tuam Bon Secours nuns From: BrendanB Date: 09 Jun 14 - 01:17 PM I find it odd that you should single out the NHS as a model of transparency, Musket. I have lost count of the number of whistleblowers in the NHS who have been gagged, lost their jobs etc. |
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Subject: RE: BS: Dead babies and Tuam Bon Secours nuns From: Musket Date: 09 Jun 14 - 02:11 PM The NHS is the most transparent public service we have. It also has the most number of whistle blowers, things going wrong and things going right, judging by scale and public expectation. I'm surprised too. Surprised that you look at one less than ideal aspect of The NHS and compare it to another. Or bluntly, an example (in my case) of duty of candour being used and other examples of where it went wrong. Out of interest, I am not an NHS professional, and most of my dipping in has been to try and eradicate exactly the type of thing you refer to. If I ran my companies in the way the NHS is run in some quarters we would have gone bust years ago. Tell you what though, when I chaired a trust I was rightly proud of our 6,000 staff and the million patients a year we treated didn't mind having the best healthcare system there is either. And yes, the chief executive I appointed was tasked to remove or retrain all aspects of bullying and coercion. Did we manage it? Dunno. But at least we were happy that we were a different NHS to the Daily M*il NHS. Mrs Musket saves lives for a living, as a consultant surgeon specialising in types of cancer. That's The NHS and as an outsider privileged to help improve it, I am rather proud of the jewel in The UK crown. Just as millions of others are. My recent caretaker role gave me a sense of pride for that matter. Proud of even those who moan. I moan too. I moan about it being physically impossible to carry out the will of government and the expectation of the people at the same time. We have at least 32 axe or other sharp implement murderers. 293 working as prostitutes on the side, 1,673 people committing fraud, 184 paedophiles, 38,093 users of heroin. Etc. (Average take of that sample size.) Or in other words, 1.3 million people providing over a million patient decisions every 36 hours. I can find examples of good and bad. Tell you what though... The ones caught starving babies and murdering them, Beverley Allett being the most well known example. Do you know where they are? Prison. Right. Back to throwing baby bodies into cesspits and not acknowledging accountability. |
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Subject: RE: BS: Dead babies and Tuam Bon Secours nuns From: Q (Frank Staplin) Date: 09 Jun 14 - 02:12 PM Joe, children in the Catholic faith in Santa Fe were taught a catechism, which they had to memorize before or shortly after their first communion. The Franciscan brothers of the archdiocese were the usual teachers, whether this was the "Baltimore" catechism or other, I don't know. I do remember that the children dressed for their examinations and communions, boys in white shirt and black pants and girls in fancy little dresses made or bought for the occasion. The situation probably is different today. Parents, regardless of their faiths, who teach religious conformity to their children, are brainwashing them; there may be other terms, but I believe that the term is applicable. Finally, I made no apologia for the Irish situation, I was pointing out that similar examples of mistreatment that we would not countenance today existed elsewhere. |
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Subject: RE: BS: Dead babies and Tuam Bon Secours nuns From: Jim Carroll Date: 09 Jun 14 - 02:55 PM "children in the Catholic faith in Santa Fe were taught a catechism, which they had to memorize before or shortly after their first communion." Even having never attended a Catholic School, I could recite my catechism before I could my times tables - I think I probably still can seven decades later. Jim Carroll |
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Subject: RE: BS: Dead babies and Tuam Bon Secours nuns From: BrendanB Date: 09 Jun 14 - 03:17 PM I rather think you have made an important point Musket. I agree that the NHS is a wonderful organization. A vast majority of those who work for the NHS can take pride in what they do. But there are some who besmirch the name of the NHS by their actions. I can see that. Why can you not recognise that there is a parallel with the Catholic church? No-one is trying to defend what appears to have happened in Tuam, but you appear to have judged all of Catholicism and found it guilty. |
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Subject: RE: BS: Dead babies and Tuam Bon Secours nuns From: Musket Date: 09 Jun 14 - 03:32 PM Actually Brendan, to be fair, others have said that. I said that until and unless local church leaders are called to account by their church, the rank and file are being let down by the institution. The church was the driving ethic of this type of home and unless the church can open up and satisfy society that it deserves to be let loose on vulnerable people in future, it's privilege remains in question. The new Pope is a breath of fresh air and means well. But even a religion based on elevating a leader to infallible status, he still has people under him who are rightly afraid of their past roles on condoning awful things, and are fearful of openness. He needs to be inwardly effective in the same way as he is outwardly a good man. Granted, a good man who can't denounce bigotry, misogyny and homophobia in his ranks but I genuinely do see his dilemma. Ditto Archbishop of Canterbury and Anglican practices world wide. Our shared comparison, NHS is a good example itself. In trying to improve matters, one weapon I use without shame is telling the good that the bad are letting them down as well as themselves. Dr Bloggs isn't uncaring, The NHS is uncaring until Dr Bloggs is dealt with. Peer pressure driving his standards upwards being a win win for all. |
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Subject: RE: BS: Dead babies and Tuam Bon Secours nuns From: Joe Offer Date: 09 Jun 14 - 09:13 PM So, it's now the end of the day on 9 June. This episode began with a story in the Irish Times dated 4 June. Here's a line from the beginning of that article:
Headlines all over the world screamed about 800 babies found in a septic tank. Here are some cited in an article published 7 June in the Irish Times:
The Irish Times article reports details of the research of Catherine Corless. Corless "concludes that many of the children were buried in an unofficial graveyard at the rear of the former home. This small grassy space has been attended for decades by local people, who have planted roses and other flowers there, and put up a grotto in one corner." Reading further in the story, it appears that in 1975, two boys found perhaps 20 skeletons in a concrete vault that may have been a septic tank. That story has continued to grow over the week, as you can see in this thread - with especially entertaining sputtering from MtheGM, Musket, and Jim Carroll (now Mr. Carroll is incensed that I would accuse him of working on a hypothetical "project" with screws and a screwdriver). Apparently, a similar situation was reported in the 2009 Philomena book and subsequent 2013 movie so the story is widely known and not really a new one. A number of Catholic Officials have made statements of concern about the mother and baby homes and the industrial schools. These matters are under intense study, and rightly so. And yes, they are serious situations. I have yet to see any statement from a Catholic bishop denying what happened in the homes and industrial schools and Magdalene Laundries. Maybe there were denials in past years, but certainly not recently. I suppose somebody will find an old priest or nun somewhere who's willing to give a denial, but there is widespread knowledge of these stories among Catholics by now, and there is widespread concern. Despite what the screamers will continue to allege, nobody's denying that these things happened. And you have never, ever heard a word of denial from me. I think I know my Catholic faith very well, since I have a degree in Theology from a Catholic seminary. Nothing in the teachings of the Catholic Church justifies conduct like the treatment children and others received in the industrial schools, mother and baby homes, and Magdalene Laundries - but yet this institutionalized cruelty happened, under the auspices of my Catholic Church. It is a matter of great concern to me. A large number of my fellow Catholics systematically betrayed the principles of the faith they claimed to profess. And that is a horrible shame. Still, the story of 800 babies in a septic tank is untrue. Maybe twenty, but we still don't even know that for a fact. The Gardai is conducting an investigation of the graves at Tuam. Maybe we'll know the truth soon. (click). -Joe Offer- |
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Subject: RE: BS: Dead babies and Tuam Bon Secours nuns From: Greg F. Date: 09 Jun 14 - 10:17 PM I'm so relieved to hear, Joe, that it was "only" 20 children in the septic tank and the rest that were starved to death are in unmarked graves. Good God, man, have you no sense of decency? |
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Subject: RE: BS: Dead babies and Tuam Bon Secours nuns From: GUEST,mg Date: 09 Jun 14 - 11:31 PM I thought cardinal brady was primate of all ireland..and he is not.popular with abuse survivors... A report from a medical. Examiner is coming out..babies with green diarrhea and bad lesions..he sacked the matron, got the place put in order and i think deaths.went to about two percent. In one of these places girls cut lawns with scissors...provably as their babies suffered. One of the worst things is they gave birth with no anesthesia and if they were torn got no stitches. It was a terribly poor country but things did not have to be sadistic. I still say track how money was spent. Where did it go..i doubt it was all spent on the nuns and mothers and babies. |
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Subject: RE: BS: Dead babies and Tuam Bon Secours nuns From: Joe Offer Date: 10 Jun 14 - 02:31 AM You're right, mg. Sean Cardinal Brady is the current Archbishop of Armagh and Primate of All Ireland. Diarmuid Martin is the Roman Catholic Archbishop of Dublin and Primate of Ireland (but not ALL Ireland). Go figure. My understanding is that Martin's a pretty good guy. Don't know about Brady. Here's a Wikipedia article that explains the Primacy of Ireland. No wonder the Vatican bureaucrats throw up their hands in frustration when they have to deal with the Irish Catholic Church. Jim Carroll reported a green diarrhea story above. That incident happened at a mother-and-baby home in Cork in the 1940s, apparently caused by an outbreak of staphylococcus infection. Greg F. - Whether I have any sense of decency or not, I want to know the truth before I make any judgment. We don't actually know if there were 20 children's bodies in a septic tank. And we don't know how they got there. If other children were buried in a cemetery on the grounds, why would some bones be dumped in this separate container? Before you question my decency, wait for the Gardai report. Good God, man, have you no sense of truth? -Joe Offer- |
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Subject: RE: BS: Dead babies and Tuam Bon Secours nuns From: Jim Carroll Date: 10 Jun 14 - 03:10 AM "apparently causes by an outbreak of staphylococcus infection." Like the Irish potato blight Joe, it wasn't the cause of the Famine that was the problem, but the inhuman way in which it was handled. Your re-posting my link is somewhat of a non-sequitor and my point remains the same - the Church has proven itself beyond all doubt to be totally unsuited and unfit to have any say in how our lives are run, other than through spiritual guidance, and even this must be accepted voluntarily and be subject to close scrutiny. They have shown themselves to be untrustworthy, particularly when it comes to contact with children. Jim Carroll |
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Subject: RE: BS: Dead babies and Tuam Bon Secours nuns From: GUEST,Musket Date: 10 Jun 14 - 03:47 AM If you are purely judging this institution then the police report will be a source of evidence (not judgement.) However, the overall fitness for purpose of church run social care already has legal judgements against it and has been found wanting. Interestingly, with little chance of finding anyone still around who made decisions there, it will never have full legal closure, so the stain will remain. All the more important that the Catholic Church demonstrate how they will in future prevent such things happening in their name. If they can't, how can they therefore take credit for some of the good things carried out in their name? The days of religious organisations having it both ways are over in civilised society. Too many cracks for the wallpaper to cover. |
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Subject: RE: BS: Dead babies and Tuam Bon Secours nuns From: Joe Offer Date: 10 Jun 14 - 04:25 AM OK, Jim, the diarrhea was probably caused by a sex-addicted nun who was on holiday from her usual practice of devil-worshipping with her Imaginary Friend. Does that satisfy you? I'm sorry, Jim, it must be my thirty years of experience as an investigator. I want to know the truth, and I hate things that smack of propaganda and prejudice. While almost all of the stories of the child molestations and the mother-baby homes and the industrial schools and the Magdalene Laundries are true, they all have been reported as "new" information so many times, that readers cannot get any sense of the true proportion of the problem. The propagandists are recycling old stories so often, that it has come to the point where people starting not to believe it anymore. And when actual new information develops and needs to be heard, people won't be listening anymore. People really need to know the truth of this story, because it is a very important one. When you posted your story, I thought at first you were referring to Tuam because Tuam was what we were talking about. On second reading, I did come to understand that incident was in Cork. And then mg reported a green diarrhea story with similar details, as if it were a new incident that hadn't already been reported in the thread. I simply wanted to make it clear that it was not an additional incident. Could it be that you actually would find it offensive that I would do that? And I did not re-post your link - I posted a link to your message, although I cannot imagine what would be wrong with re-posting a link somebody else posted, if it helped to clarify what I was trying to say. And why in the world would you be so peeved about my referring to the hypothetical possibility of your using screws and a screwdriver in a home improvement project? It is below your lofty station in life to do home improvement projects, or what? You're just being peevish, Jim, and for no reason. I think you're better than that. You say: the Church has proven itself beyond all doubt to be totally unsuited and unfit to have any say in how our lives are run, other than through spiritual guidance, and even this must be accepted voluntarily and be subject to close scrutiny. They have shown themselves to be untrustworthy, particularly when it comes to contact with children. I'm not sure my opinion is all that different from yours in the end result. I've never deemed Catholic Church "authority" to be anything more than advisory, so I don't really mind if Catholic Church authorities say whatever they want to say - and it makes me nervous to hear proposals that their freedom to speak should be restricted. I think that in general, Catholic bishops and the Pope have spoken very wisely over the last 150 years about issues of peace and warfare, capital punishment, justice to workers, the rights of immigrants, racial prejudice, the avarice of capitalism, and a number of other social justice issues - and I am very proud that they have had the courage to speak out on these matters. In the United States, the Catholic Church is one of the few voices against American militarism, capital punishment, and oppression of immigrants and workers. I would hate to see that voice silenced. On the other hand, I don't think Catholic bishops and the pope know the first thing about sex, marriage, children, and family life. Parish priests have direct, daily contact with families and family crises, and often may have great wisdom in these matters (despite their celibacy). But bishops and popes rarely have contact with the experiences of real family life, and their foolish pronouncements prove it. Pope John Paul II came up with a campaign to teach the "Theology of the Body," particularly to teenagers, and that campaign makes me very nervous because it is so unrealistic. I work in youth ministry with teenage kids, and the other leaders want the kids to go to "Theology of the Body" retreats conducted by conservative organizations. I want these kids to have a realistic understanding of things, and still look on sex as something sacred. I'm finding it's a delicate thing to deal with, since most of the parents in my area are quite conservative. There's a reason why I've made friends with all of the conservative families in my parish - many of them homeschool their children, some in families of 6, 7, or 8 kids. I do my best to tone down that conservatism. And I've often found that I really enjoy the families and that they enjoy me despite my liberalism. But then you say, They have shown themselves to be untrustworthy, particularly when it comes to contact with children. And then I'm not so sure. I have found many members of Catholic religious orders, particularly Jesuits, who have a passion for teaching kids how to think for themselves and get past all the bullshit and propaganda that surrounds us. Yes, there are a few sexual predators among them, as there are wherever there are children. But I've watched many of these priests and brothers and sisters in action, and it's thrilling to see the brilliance they can draw out of young men and women. I do presentations to kids who go to Catholic schools, and to kids who go to government-owned schools. At least in the U.S., the Catholic school kids are far, far better than those going to state-owned schools. The Catholic school kids get actively engaged in discussions, and the public school kids feign ignorance (or maybe they ARE ignorant). For the most part, I have found kids in U.S. Catholic schools to be more open-minded than those in state-run schools. The Catholic school kids have been taught to relish debate, and often the public school kids just listen to their iPods. But here in the U.S., we cannot even imagine churches running schools and institutions that are paid for by government money. If a church runs a school in the U.S., the students have to pay their own tuition. If I understand things correctly, churches often run schools in Europe that are paid for entirely by taxpayer money. In some countries (Germany is one, I believe), the operating cost of churches is paid for by taxation. To us Americans, that is simply incredible. We wouldn't dream of having our churches controlled by the government that way. I sent my kids to Catholic schools, but I paid every penny of the cost of their education (while paying taxes that paid for the public school education they could have had for free). And believe me, it was expensive - so I made damn sure they got a good education, so I served a good number of years on the school board and visited every classroom every year to sing songs and tell stories. -Joe- |
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Subject: RE: BS: Dead babies and Tuam Bon Secours nuns From: Joe Offer Date: 10 Jun 14 - 05:12 AM OK, so I guess now I should answer Musket, who says: If you are purely judging this institution then the police report will be a source of evidence (not judgement.) However, the overall fitness for purpose of church run social care already has legal judgements against it and has been found wanting. Interestingly, with little chance of finding anyone still around who made decisions there, it will never have full legal closure, so the stain will remain. All the more important that the Catholic Church demonstrate how they will in future prevent such things happening in their name. If they can't, how can they therefore take credit for some of the good things carried out in their name? The days of religious organisations having it both ways are over in civilised society. Too many cracks for the wallpaper to cover. Musket, you are still basing your conclusions on your assumption of uniformity and central control within the Catholic Church, and that assumption of yours is absolutely false. Rather than making an overall judgment that covers all billion members of the Catholic Church, you must view the Catholic Church as a loose affiliation of independent individuals and independent organizations, who operate almost completely without control from outside forces or from the Vatican. Some organizations and religious orders in the Catholic Church have a proven record of responsible operation of institutions for the education and care of children. Some have a horrible record. Some are to be trusted with children, and some are not. It is impossible to make a blanket statement that would apply to the entire, billion-member Catholic Church. You demand "that the Catholic Church demonstrate how they will in future prevent such things happening in their name." And if you trusted such a demonstration, you would be foolhardy. The bishops of the Catholic Church have done a lot to establish controls over such things, but your assumption of uniformity gets in the way again. Controls that apply to an entire church or to an entire diocese can be effective only to a degree. The scrutiny must take place on a lower level and must be far more direct than a diocese can manage. Oh, and then there's a restatement of how the Catholic Church can't "have it both ways," which is another display of your erroneous assumption of uniformity in the Catholic Church. You say, "The days of religious organisations having it both ways are over in civilised society" - and you are absolutely wrong. The Catholic Church will forever be flawed and will forever be plagued with horrible scandal, while at the same time others in the Catholic Church will do amazingly good things. That is the reality of things in a billion-member organization. Some of its members will do wonderful things, and some will do horrible things - and there will never, ever be the uniformity that people expect to see in the Catholic Church. -Joe- Click here for an analysis of the story from Forbes Magazine. I think it has a far more realistic perspective, although I'll stick to my theory that the bones in the septic tank may have been moved there after they were found in unmarked graves that were dug up when the property was made into a subdivision. |
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Subject: RE: BS: Dead babies and Tuam Bon Secours nuns From: GUEST,Peter Laban Date: 10 Jun 14 - 05:49 AM 'you must view the Catholic Church as a loose affiliation of independent individuals and independent organizations, who operate almost completely without control from outside forces or from the Vatican' I must wonder when this state of being came about Joe. It must be recently. I can imagine the Vatican maintaining a lassez faire attitude as long as the various parts of the church are towing the line but I think anyone looking into the matter will quickly find who's holding the reins. While I am not up on church history I do remember the trend towards a more 'progressive' church during the seventies and eighties, in South America, in Europe. I also seem to remember the Vatican clamping down on that movement by parachuting in conservative bishops to quench the perceived move to the left in various countries. I can give you the Dutch RC church as an example where people like Gijsen in Roermond and Simonis in Rotterdam were clear representatives of the Vatican taking control much against the general opinion and wishes of the local organisations. |
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Subject: RE: BS: Dead babies and Tuam Bon Secours nuns From: Jim Carroll Date: 10 Jun 14 - 07:00 AM "propaganda and prejudice" I'm sorry too Joe - sorry that you have resorted to dishonest evasion to defend the indefensible. You have the facts - without any hint of either of what you accuse me of. Clerical child abuse, The Magdalene Laundries and now care homes have loosened the grip of the Church on'Holy Ireland' - you have yet to deal with (and no doubt, find excuses for) the seizing and selling of children to deal with. Your disgraceful stance on this does neither you nor your church any favours. This insightful and humane piece from one of Ireland's finest journalists, a Christian Brothers educated writer, named among the top 300 British intellectuals (despite not being British) - from this morning's Irish Times. Jim Carroll DARK ELEMENTS OF OUR PAST ARE ALSO FORCES IN OUR PRESENT Fintan O'Toole The Irish psychosis whose latest expression is thousands of dead babies in unmarked graves is a compound of four elements: superiority, shame, cruelty and exclusion. The Taoiseach last week called the deaths of those children "yet another element of our country's past". Are we so sure that these forces are not also our country's present? The superiority complex in Irish society came from the desperate need of an insecure middle class to have someone to look down on, an inferior Other against which to define its own respectability. In 1943, the Joint Committee of Women's Societies and Social Workers com¬piled a well-meaning memorandum on children in institutions. It noted of those in mother-and-baby homes that "These illegitimate children start with a handicap. Owing to the circumstances of their birth, their heredity, the state of mind of the mother before birth, their liability to' hereditary disease and mental weakness, we do not get, and we should not expect to get, the large percentage of healthy vigorous babies we get in normal circumstances. This was noticeable in the institutions we visited. " These were humane and compassionate reformers. And it seemed obvious to them that children born out of wedlock would be physically and mentally weak and that "we should not expect" them to be normally healthy. Sense of inferiority A Catholic priest writing in the Irish Ecclesiastical Record in 1922 under the pen-name Sagart, actually objected to the establishment of mother-and-baby homes, not on the grounds that they were horribly oppressive in principle, but that they might let unmarried mothers lose their proper sense of inferiority. The homes would "bring these poor girls into touch with each other, a thing which experience shows to be very harmful. They feel that [they] are 'all in the same boat' and are inevitably led to 'compare notes ' and talk of their experiences. Each will thus have borne in on her mind the impression that her case is not extraordinary, and that many girls of seemingly unblemished reputation are no better than herself." He need not have worried, of course -the regime in the homes ensured that the women would have no illusions of normality. The institutional church, meanwhile, was a giant factory for the mass production of shame and secrecy. It was the Irish secret service. In an article in The Irish Times 1964, Michael Viney referred to "the secret-service mother-and-baby homes" run by religious orders in Ireland. The metaphor was not strained. Viney quoted the mother superior of a home he visited as telling him that the young women never set foot outside of the grounds: "They'd rather put up with a toothache than risk a visit to the dentist in the town, where they might just meet someone who would recognise them." The church's genius was that it both generated the shame and controlled the secrets that resulted from it. The third element was cruelty - conscious and deliberate cruelty, aimed at the creation of fear. Catholic Ireland locked up in mental hospitals, industrial schools, Magdalene laundries and mother-and- baby homes an astonishing 1 per cent of its entire population. The cruelty of these places was not accidental. "Sagart" regretted the unfortunate fact that too many Irish unmarried mothers led lives of misery in England - not because they suffered but because such "sufferings, borne as they are in a far-off place, have little of a deterrent effect on the girls of her neighbourhood". Catholic Ireland needed the deterrent of suffering in the big walled buildings. Psychosis of emigration The final element was the psychosis of mass emigration that accustomed society to absences, exclusions, holes in the fabric of reality. Viney reported that the homes had well-run systems for sending letters from inmates to London- they were then posted back to the young woman's family with British stamps, as if from an accommodation address in England. The mother-and-baby homes were a form of internal exile. But Ireland's biggest mother-and-baby home was always England: in the four years between 1950 and 1953,1,693 Irish unmarried mothers applied for help to the Crusade of Rescue in the Catholic diocese of Westminster alone. We're less crude about them now, but all of these factors persist. The winners in Irish society still think the losers are a different breed. If shame has gone, why do we use secret abortions in England to preserve the myth of holy Ireland? Cruelty and fear survive: the law of the land still says that a teacher in a Catholic school can be sacked without redress for getting pregnant outside marriage. Contempt for poor children is thriving - one third of our children currently live in deprivation. If you think we don't treat vulnerable children as "deterrents" any more, have a look at the system for asylum seekers. And of course, we've reverted to the use of mass emigration as the solution to our social problems. The past has yet to pass. |
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Subject: RE: BS: Dead babies and Tuam Bon Secours nuns From: GUEST,Peter Laban Date: 10 Jun 14 - 01:07 PM - A special commission is being set up to investigate the Mother & baby homes: 'The special commission of investigation will examine the high mortality rates at Mother and Baby homes across several decades of the 20th century, the burial practices at these sites and also secret and illegal adoptions and vaccine trials on children, Minister for Children Charlie Flanagan said.' - The records of the Bon secours home in Tuam have no reference to the place of burial of any of the dearths recorded at the home. |
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Subject: RE: BS: Dead babies and Tuam Bon Secours nuns From: Q (Frank Staplin) Date: 10 Jun 14 - 01:32 PM The Dozier School in Florida was a state-supported institution. Forensic anthropologists are disinterring some 55 bodies to determine causes of death, etc. Some children as young as one year were interned there. Truancy from school was one of the crimes which could lead to incarceration. A former internee told of blood on the walls, filth, and starvation. The school operated from 1900-2011. A current news report- BBC News Magazine, 15 April 2014. There may be more bodies buried elsewhere than in the plot currently under investigation. Ireland is not alone in these horror stories and the Irish Catholic Church is not the sole culprit. In Alberta, the separate Catholic school system is supported by public money and runs parallel with the Public System. All provinces in Canada have similar systems. Parents do not pay, as they would have to do in the U. S. In Santa Fe, funds from the Archdiocese help pay for students whose parents are poor. |
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Subject: RE: BS: Dead babies and Tuam Bon Secours nuns From: Q (Frank Staplin) Date: 10 Jun 14 - 01:39 PM Joe, Greg F's sole purpose is to demonize or ridicule all who post opinion, fact or supposition or other legitimate material. He does not contribute anything of substance. His comments on your posts and mine illustrate his bent. It is time his name was removed from membership. |
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Subject: RE: BS: Dead babies and Tuam Bon Secours nuns From: Greg F. Date: 10 Jun 14 - 01:41 PM Ireland is not alone in these horror stories and the Irish Catholic Church is not the sole culprit. I don't recall anyone saying that they were. |
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Subject: RE: BS: Dead babies and Tuam Bon Secours nuns From: GUEST,# Date: 10 Jun 14 - 03:45 PM "Ireland is not alone in these horror stories and the Irish Catholic Church is not the sole culprit." That is so true. The commonalities are church, state and populace: they all three deserve the blame in equal amounts. Silence on the part of any is a crime. |
