BS: lets develop Scotland

Subject: RE: BS: lets develop Scotland
From: Dave the Gnome
Date: 13 Jul 14 - 04:11 AM

Aye - Fairy Nuff, Triplane. You have a good point. Thanks.

I'm seeing him today, Musket. He is 92 now and never talks but he does seem to know what is happening. Which one were you? The blond from 1947 or the brunette from '48? :-)

Cheers

DtG

Subject: RE: BS: lets develop Scotland
From: Musket
Date: 13 Jul 14 - 03:26 AM

Give your Dad my regards...

Al is trying to see reason here but missing the point. The comment that folk music is about the underdog being a point in case. Too many songs celebrating fox hunting for that to wash. Too many Dylans on celebrity rich lists.

Akenaton does make a valid point about globalisation. In fact, it is so succinct it completely contradicts his wishes for an independent Scotland. Big governments are needed to stand up to big multinationals.

Governments may set the agenda and may interfere but with every government since the war, every child in The UK has the opportunity to strive to where they wish to be. His incessant rambling on about nobody gets a chance just exacerbates knocking the stuffing out of people.

Your aspirations may be whatever they are, but I doubt anybody told a careers teacher they aspired to sitting in their underpants watching Jeremy Kyle. Yet many adults, as exemplified by Akenaton, seem to be happy letting kids look forward to such an existence. Drugs help the numbing experience of watching it, apparently.

Al. Just because I dismiss Akenaton for his awful bigotry doesn't mean I can't dismiss him for doom mongering. In some ways it is worse because decent people won't become bigots by reading his diatribe but plenty are taken in by those who blame everybody but themselves.

Subject: RE: BS: lets develop Scotland
From: GUEST,Triplane
Date: 12 Jul 14 - 06:59 PM

DTG If you dont reply to Akentons pish he cant keep the thread going unless the "trolls" want him to.
The bottom line is that he does not represent the MAJORITY of Scottish voters, the silent MAJORITY who dont rant and rave either in the media or on minority view websites like this.
If you want comedy there are other outlets ..... like Holyrood.

Subject: RE: BS: lets develop Scotland
From: Dave the Gnome
Date: 12 Jul 14 - 02:17 PM

I don't blame governments, I blame the global capitalist system.

But I thought you said what is happening around the globe has nothing to do with this thread and does not equate in any way.

BTW - I am not Muskets love child. I thought you said you know my Father was Polish. So unless Musket is a woman with whom Dad had a fling you are wrong again. :-)

DtG

Subject: RE: BS: lets develop Scotland
From: Dave the Gnome
Date: 12 Jul 14 - 01:34 PM

To be quite blunt Dave, you haven't the faintest idea what you are talking about....How could you know?

Errrr, because my family background helps me to understand what repression of a nation means maybe?

What has your family background got to do with this thread?

Errrr, because my family background helps me to understand what repression of a nation means maybe?

What happens in Poland has nothing to do with this thread and does not equate in any way.

Can you not understand that the world is such a small place nowadays that everything affects everything else? Scotland want's to join the EU in it's own right. Hopefully, if it does go it alone, your politicians will understand that even if you do not.

DtG

Subject: RE: BS: lets develop Scotland
From: Big Al Whittle
Date: 12 Jul 14 - 11:56 AM

well to be honest, Musket - I think that last post by Ake was spot on. We can't all be winners in a material sense. And by and large -folk music celebrates the lives of the losers and survivors.

I know you don't agree with him on some subjects - but that doesn't mean you have to consistently rubbish the bloke - like he's some sort of untermensch. Personally I would rather be able to play Keys to the Highway like Broonzy than pick up a couple of hundred grand. I play a decent version already - but to do it perfectly - with no one listening - would mean that much to me.

I am pleased for you enjoying success in life -but its not the path many of us feel inclined to follow, or indeed able to follow.

As you say, you are investing in Scotland. If you continue to ignore the point of view of the paysans - maybe you should withdraw your investment. Remember that bit in Godfather 2, where the money guys are considering investing in Cuba? This is a nation who never voted for Tebbit and Thatcher.

Subject: RE: BS: lets develop Scotland
From: akenaton
Date: 12 Jul 14 - 10:19 AM

Ian, you seem to Share a comprehension problem with your love child Dave.

I don't blame governments, I blame the global capitalist system.
Governments are elected to do the bidding of that system, we saw how they banded together(Liberal, Tory and Labour to rob the poor when the greedy bastards overreached themselves.
"we are all in it together" was the cry, but the crime was committed by the ultra rich.

The people have come to believe that everyone can succeed, just as they believe that they will win the lottery sometime.

People who study capitalist economics(robbery without violence), understand that for capitalism to work successfully, the masses must not be allowed to succeed. When the wealth gap narrows, capitalism is in decline, there is no longer a strong enough monetary incentive to promote growth, the poor are becoming too expensive to sustain, time to up sticks for India or China, where the rich can invest their money in a bit of serious exploitation.
Your few heaps of sticks and stone will be very small beer.

We need another incentive beyond money, which is transient.
National pride, to make our country a good place to live for all her citizens.....start tackling the real inequalities in this society, even if it means lower living standards for the drones.
We need to invest, not as absentee landlords, but invest in our young folk, generations lost because of short term political thinking

"The way is clear!!"

Subject: RE: BS: lets develop Scotland
From: akenaton
Date: 12 Jul 14 - 09:31 AM

Stu...I meant the people of Scotland, as an entity, are often unrepresented by the government of the UK,
We were, and I believe still are, a separate nation with separate history, separate culture and sense of national identity.
The "Southern rain" has not quite washed all of it away...yet.

If we wish to keep these things, the time has come to assert ourselves.
The Scots politicians in Westminster serve the UK government and do not have the interests of the Scottish people as a priority.

Subject: RE: BS: lets develop Scotland
From: Stu
Date: 12 Jul 14 - 08:48 AM

"Now "the way is clear", time to throw off the shackles of a government which does not represent Scotland in any shape or form."

Sorry to attempt to disabuse you of the notion of Scottish superiority, but there are plenty of Scots in Westminster. I assume you think these people have become corrupted by the evil English down south, that somehow they have gone native? Nope, you can't change the past and the Scots were equal partners in empire and are indistinguishable from the English in this regard.


"Governments don't make equality of opportunity, people do"

But governments control the many of the parameters within which our educators and community workers and activists operate. For instance, the closing down of a local charity to help women fleeing domestic abuse when funding was withdrawn by central government

Subject: RE: BS: lets develop Scotland
From: Musket
Date: 12 Jul 14 - 08:37 AM

I got lessons in being judgemental by reading your posts on the subject of getting gigs etc.

No Al. You are missing my point. Whilstever the doom mongers keep bleating about how it's everybody's fault but theirs, kids might start believing them. It's the worst thing you can do.

Akenaton said that poor people don't have a chance and then said I know nothing about life. That's judgemental. I merely blew it into the water.

I do have a bike, and after the strike, I got on the fucker and went for an interview for a job with prospects. So did many others.

The last post by me was in reply to his pathetic sneer. You think I like getting on my high horse? It's bad enough that he is a sad bitter bigoted individual, but when every post he comes out with brings people down, says we are all going to hell in a hand cart.

Are we fuck.

Unless we are steering the pony's arse.

Subject: RE: BS: lets develop Scotland
From: Big Al Whittle
Date: 12 Jul 14 - 07:26 AM

Musket! I really feel sorry for you. somehow you seem to have metamormorhised (I know its not the real word, but God knows what it should be) into Norman Tebbit.

I mean! Just look at the tone of that last post! its SO judgemental!

for fuck's sake, buy a kaftan, and go to India like the Beatles did, or something...

Subject: RE: BS: lets develop Scotland
From: Musket
Date: 12 Jul 14 - 06:32 AM

When you say you are like a GP, does that mean you take one look at a job and refer them to a specialist?

By the way, just to correct something you said. If a GP is a "real doctor" he or she is one of only 18% (GMC annual report 2013) of medical doctors who are "real doctors." Without denigrating the profession, medical doctors hold the title as a honorary one. The only degree qualification necessary to register as a foundation doctor is a double bachelors, medicine and surgery. As in many trades, some go on to conduct research for which they can go for a MD (medical only) or PhD, like I and my youngest did in engineering physics.

Subject: RE: BS: lets develop Scotland
From: Musket
Date: 12 Jul 14 - 06:19 AM

Your attitude is typical of many in this respect. (Your attitude is thankfully rare in how your bigotry clouds your thoughts.).

Governments don't make equality of opportunity, people do. Parents, teachers, youth leaders, elder siblings. Role models make equal opportunity. Your incessant whinging about governments being to blame is misplaced and if people listened, unhelpful.

Yes, you are a builder. Congratulations. I'm an electrician. So what? That it is many years since I was on a coal face is neither here nor there. If people want to get on and they have 80% effort and 20% luck, they will, regardless of who sits in Westminster, Holyrood or the local council offices.

The students I teach (two days a month, I'm not a full time prof) come from all backgrounds and the only influence government decisions make are about being saddled with more debt at the end of it coupled with lower pay for doctors compared to even ten years ago. But you know what? It doesn't worry them because they are getting on with it rather than crying about how the government doesn't spoon feed them.

You whinge about English people living next door. They don't whinge when a foreign junior doctor gets a training number and they don't. They just say they have to try harder next time. This university is sited in one of the most poverty stricken cities in The UK.



Your self assurance that a Scottish government with or without the safety net of The UK will sing to your bitter tune is more than misguided, it's delusional.

Subject: RE: BS: lets develop Scotland
From: akenaton
Date: 12 Jul 14 - 03:56 AM

My background has everything to do with this thread, as it shows I have a real stake in how this country is governed, my family have put their lives into making our country, now we want self determination and a government which represents the Scottish people.

What happens in Poland has nothing to do with this thread and does not equate in any way.

" 70 years I've been a fucking sad failure."   :0)
Look Ian, I am respected for my work and integrity, over a wide area of this country, I feel blessed to be in this position.
I am needed, if I were to die tomorrow, I would be missed by a large number of people. I am fortunately able to help people under stress, to take away their problems, keep them dry and warm.
I put myself on a par with a REAL doctor....a GP for stone and timber.

Oh we have pen pushers and "gobbledy gook" manufacturers in the building trade, just like you , but fortunately they don't get loose very often to fuck up peoples lives. They are overpaid for doing their pointless jobs, to keep the Capitalist pay differentials in place and ensure the rich or "lucky" retain their power.

Hopefully the new Scotland, will be able to address the real problems in society and if they fail to do so, they will be our "failures" and will answer to us.

Subject: RE: BS: lets develop Scotland
From: robomatic
Date: 11 Jul 14 - 09:21 PM

I'm an outside American who hopes to visit Scotland. I am probably a little biased as I write this because I'm listenin to the Classical Station and currently playing is a lovely piano concerto based on variations of "Rule Brittania". . .(The Rand Variation by Ferdinant Raes)
ANyhow, I can see an argument for Scotland remaining with the U.K. should the U.K. maintain its independence from Europe. Scotland already has a membership in the European Union and as a member of the U. K. life is administratively easier and a Scot can dream of being head of the U. K. government and culture can mix more or less freely with less bureaucracy.

On the other hand, should the U.K. join the E. U. as a full member, adopt the Euro, etc. why shouldn't Scotland want to be and equal member of the E. U. to England, hence independent of it?

Overall, I am tending with the NO voters because I think bigger democracies are stronger and better for all concerned, the more that divisiveness is fostered, the better for the plutocrats who can turn governments against each other and take advantage of them.

Subject: RE: BS: lets develop Scotland
From: Musket
Date: 11 Jul 14 - 04:23 PM

Of all the times I have said that you can't educate pork , this is about as good as it gets.

Mind you, I am only bothering looking at Mudcat because the restaurant is bring slow and Mrs Musket has gone outside for a Worky type call.

I suppose the reason why I bother with the worm in the first place is this;

I have travelled throughout the globe. Seen the golden rivet if you will. I have experienced things I don't even mention. I have been fortunate in seeing the fruits of my endeavour but don't believe in coincidence. I have seen and spoken with people for whom freedom actually has meaning...,,,

But the thought that a sad bitter old failure has got it into his head that a yes vote means he can carry on failing and blaming others yet somehow do better off ?

At least if he had less hate in his head, he could stop blaming innocent people for his own failures.

Subject: RE: BS: lets develop Scotland
From: Dave the Gnome
Date: 11 Jul 14 - 04:07 PM

Westminster government of course much cheaper than retraining, especially if we can get loads of Poles and Eastern Europeans to work under price.

Can you not understand it at all? It is the EU that allows such freedoms. Not the knobs at Westminster. You know the ones, those that Salmond says he will stick with. The ones that will likely say no because of people like you.

As to what anyone's family background has to do with it.

I live in the same house that my grandfather lived in, almost 70 years

Arsehole and hypocrite.

DtG

Subject: RE: BS: lets develop Scotland
From: Musket
Date: 11 Jul 14 - 03:57 PM

The harder I worked the luckier I was.

Subject: RE: BS: lets develop Scotland
From: akenaton
Date: 11 Jul 14 - 02:31 PM

"
Poor people do have an equal chance. Your chances are based on your intelligence and wit every bit as much as your background. I went from the bailiffs asking me to choose between the pram and pushchair for my baby after the strike in 1985 to selling up my business interests for a few million as my 40th birthday treat, having picked up a gong on the way. Later became a government advisor and visiting professor at a medical school over two universities. My sons, sons of a miner if you want to be romantic about it went to a school with an awful reputation and poor attainment. By their own endeavour, one is a director of a large company with all the trimmings and the other has a PhD and is presently in California designing the next generation of microprocessors."

Is that supposed to prove poor people have an equal chance?
You don't know anything about real life, do you?
It isn't about the poor boy who made good, that's a sop, a fairy tale of Capitalism. I have been in hell, sinks of drug abuse, generations of joblessness. Helpless hopeless people, living in worse conditions than animals.......it is an underclass and it's growing fast...the pitchforks are coming unless people like you alter your self satisfied stance.
You are a sad case Ian, I'm truly sorry for you, but I don't think you deserve it.

Subject: RE: BS: lets develop Scotland
From: akenaton
Date: 11 Jul 14 - 02:16 PM

What has your family background got to do with this thread?

""Fucking council house patriots. Pissed all day on benefits and talking about freedom." and who destroyed their jobs and "parked" them on incapacity......Westminster government of course much cheaper than retraining, especially if we can get loads of Poles and Eastern Europeans to work under price.

The young chap I spoke to told me, even on under minimum wage he can earn three or four times(in real terms) what he can in Poland.
Where's the equality in that.....but we must be competitive....eh what?

Latest poll, shows increased support for Independence!!

Last nights debates on TV illustrated the problem of English Nationals living in Scotland, they were over represented in the debates and every one was against Independence......Hypocrites.

Subject: RE: BS: lets develop Scotland
From: Musket
Date: 11 Jul 14 - 02:05 PM

"do you think Gaughan would support a bigot?"

He once told me that if the English want their independence, they should be allowed to have it.

Folk artistes do tend to be romantic fools at the best of times. Hence protest and hard luck stories forming many songs. Mine tend to be about shagging or the lack of shagging, take your pick.

A Scottish government will be a government. An independent government would also be a government but without the free prescriptions and tuition fees as they will be the first luxury to go.

Poor people do have an equal chance. Your chances are based on your intelligence and wit every bit as much as your background. I went from the bailiffs asking me to choose between the pram and pushchair for my baby after the strike in 1985 to selling up my business interests for a few million as my 40th birthday treat, having picked up a gong on the way. Later became a government advisor and visiting professor at a medical school over two universities. My sons, sons of a miner if you want to be romantic about it went to a school with an awful reputation and poor attainment. By their own endeavour, one is a director of a large company with all the trimmings and the other has a PhD and is presently in California designing the next generation of microprocessors.

Yes. I do think poor people have an equal chance. You just have to see further than the mist over the loch and treat people as you find them, not how you distrust or fear them.

End of sermon.

Subject: RE: BS: lets develop Scotland
From: Dave the Gnome
Date: 11 Jul 14 - 02:01 PM

Nothing at all against Polish people, but I feel we should be training our young folks rather than encouraging economic migrants.

Economic migrants? Like my Dad who was injured at Monte Casino? Like his Dad who was beaten by Russian guards that badly that he died a broken man? Like my Grandmother who walked the 700 miles back home with 2 children, living off what she could find in fields or beg from people?

Says it all really doesn't it.

Funnily enough, I have just been speaking to a good friend of over 40 years, Scottish though and through. Her family have owned the same farm for over 200 years.

What does she think of independence. Well, I am not going to be quite verbatim but the gist was,

"Fucking council house patriots. Pissed all day on benefits and talking about freedom. Hope they do get independence. I will move out and leave the country to go bankrupt."

Or words to that effect.

I don't particularly like the word cunt either. You are still an arsehole.

DtG

Subject: RE: BS: lets develop Scotland
From: akenaton
Date: 11 Jul 14 - 01:52 PM

Dougie McLean a "bigoted fool" you must be joking Ian.

Did you see the array of folk talent behind him echoing his sentiments, do you think Gaughan would support a bigot?

Typical ideological nonsense. The whole of our socio-economic system is built on inequality.....A Scottish government will address some of the REAL inequalities, like the disgusting wealth gap.
Do you really think poor people have an equal chance..... in anything?
If you do, you are an even bigger fool than your posts suggest.

Subject: RE: BS: lets develop Scotland
From: akenaton
Date: 11 Jul 14 - 01:41 PM

I suppose it will be "Thick C**t next, my you are a quick learner Dave. Ian must be very proud.
Your family background has nothing to do with this thread, I knew very well you were from Polish stock. You have mentioned it many times.
Nothing at all against Polish people, but I feel we should be training our young folks rather than encouraging economic migrants.
"To make us competitive in the global market place".....remember?

Subject: RE: BS: lets develop Scotland
From: Dave the Gnome
Date: 11 Jul 14 - 01:03 PM

To be quite blunt Dave, you haven't the faintest idea what you are talking about....How could you know?

You have one hell of a brass neck. You have no idea whatsoever about my background. Not that it is anything to do with you but I am the son of a Polish immigrant. If you think the Scots had it bad, what do you think happened in Poland in 1939? What do you think happened when the Communists moved in? OK, that is nothing to do with me, but what do you think it feels like that your family could NOT have been in the same house 70 years?

You really should engage your brain before putting your mouth in gear.

Arsehole

DtG

Subject: RE: BS: lets develop Scotland
From: Musket
Date: 11 Jul 14 - 12:57 PM

They don't have to know how "we" do things. They tend to know how "they" do things.

If you lived in our village, would you go to the Sikh family in the house down the road and tell them to start putting ferrets down their trousers and force them to believe Geoff Boycott was a better cricketer than Monty Panesar?

No problem whatsoever with wistful nostalgia, but when it is used to scorn those living nearby who have every right to live in their homes in the way they wish, it becomes something else.

And that something else isn't a trait of being Scottish either. We have bigoted fools down here too. We apologise for them and ignore them, a bit like decent Scottish people do you.






Comparing an opening batsman to a spin bowler isn't a good comparison, but it'll do. Ok, Boycott, for all his faults was the best opening batsman ever. It's just that the bugger knows it.

Subject: RE: BS: lets develop Scotland
From: Musket
Date: 11 Jul 14 - 12:19 PM

And you ended up understanding the British psychology.

Fucking priceless.

I don't know which Scotland you rattle on about but the one I know is far more tolerant, inclusive and respectful of others than how you cone across.

They should stuff you and put you in a museum.

Subject: RE: BS: lets develop Scotland
From: akenaton
Date: 11 Jul 14 - 12:06 PM

Grow up Dave, who said EVERYONE from the South was "money rich and emotionally starved"? ;0).... You've been studying Ian's M O, haven't you Dave.

The people from the South of England who buy houses up here on the West Coast are very much like that....as Dougie says, they come thundering in, not a clue about Scottish culture or how we do things.

Remember, in my lifetime Gaelic was still spoken in many places as a first language.
Our culture is slowly being eroded by the "Southern rain"

To be quite blunt Dave, you haven't the faintest idea what you are talking about....How could you know?
I live in the same house that my grandfather lived in, almost 70 years of getting to understand the Scottish psychology, watching my boyhood friends turn into grandparents, the huge struggle to live when times were really hard, communal life as it aught to be and above all a sense of being Scottish before all else

Now "the way is clear", time to throw off the shackles of a government which does not represent Scotland in any shape or form.

Subject: RE: BS: lets develop Scotland
From: Dave the Gnome
Date: 11 Jul 14 - 10:25 AM

by the money rich, emotionally starved, invaders from the South.


What a load of shite. Everyone south of the border is emotionally starved and money rich now? All those above are loving paupers? You really do need to get a deep fried pie to eat with that massive chip, ake.

DtG

Subject: RE: BS: lets develop Scotland
From: akenaton
Date: 10 Jul 14 - 05:42 PM

Let's hear ya!! Dougie McLean and guests "Caledonia"

Subject: RE: BS: lets develop Scotland
From: akenaton
Date: 10 Jul 14 - 05:27 PM

Dougie McLean "Eternity"

Subject: RE: BS: lets develop Scotland
From: Musket
Date: 10 Jul 14 - 03:10 PM

Golf..

Freudian from a certain perspective.

Cracking good night here in St Andrews. Just awaiting Musket Jnr in the bar and let celebrations commence.

Out of interest, I am half listening to a conversation between a few men about the referendum. (They are the other side of the bar to me as I sit on a barstool minding my business but listening really.) They too are taking the piss out of the "wacky and repugnant at the same time" (to quote one) nationalists. Interestingly, they seem to have Scottish accents.

Such a nice corner of The UK here, except for the fucking golfers.

Subject: RE: BS: lets develop Scotland
From: akenaton
Date: 10 Jul 14 - 12:26 PM

Thank you Al, and thanks for your support on this thread, folks with your attitude will always be welcome here.

Indigenous is a great album, "Eternity" makes me greet with pride.
Take a listen on the free site I linked to.....I already have the album, before Ian starts moaning. :0)

Subject: RE: BS: lets develop Scotland
From: Big Al Whittle
Date: 10 Jul 14 - 10:09 AM

lovely track Ake! thanks for that!

he sounds young but he can't be. Caledonia must have been thirty years ago.

Subject: RE: BS: lets develop Scotland
From: akenaton
Date: 09 Jul 14 - 04:01 PM

Bad link try this one
Dougie McLean

Subject: RE: BS: lets develop Scotland
From: akenaton
Date: 09 Jul 14 - 03:45 PM

The great man himself.

Subject: RE: BS: lets develop Scotland
From: akenaton
Date: 09 Jul 14 - 03:42 PM

From Dougie McLean's excellent album "Indigenous", the song "Thundering in" relates the unsympathetic attitude shown to Scottish history, culture and people, by the money rich, emotionally starved, invaders from the South.

"Thundering in"




You found chances in this place
To build upon your affluence and build upon your grace
You'd have come sooner if you'd known
Now you're brushing up the velvet and the beads upon your throne

You come thundering in
You come thundering in
You want and you're taking plenty
And all the things that we knew
You've plundered them through
And you'll drink till our cup is empty
Blindly thundering

Once the old ones used to meet
With stories told before the fire the whisky tasted sweet
You did not want them to be seen
Now you're polishing the vinyl on your video machine

You come thundering in
You come thundering in
You want and you're taking plenty
And all the things that we knew
You've plundered them through
And you'll drink till our cup is empty
Blindly thundering

How can you repay them for stealing their pride?
For stealing the place that they keep deep inside?

So you'll move these ancient stones
You'll cut away these green and spreading towers that have grown
And when we ask you where they've gone
Well, you polish your excuses for the made man must move on

You come thundering in
You come thundering in
You want and you're taking plenty
And all the things that we knew
You've plundered them through
And you'll drink till our cup is empty
Blindly thundering.

Subject: RE: BS: lets develop Scotland
From: Musket
Date: 09 Jul 14 - 03:52 AM

Judging by Salmond's excellent track record on promoting equality, I reckon you and your kind will be doing the squirming.

Everybody in The UK has a stake. The people physically residing in Scotland get a vote, (you do not qualify for a vote by being Scottish, I thought I'd just point that out,) and the rest of The UK has a right to influence, comment and point out folly.

I have an emotional stake and I am not just interested in protecting my investment. Please take that back, worm.

No?

The Scottish government has been attracting investment and I assume a hypothetical independent one will too. SNP say they will at any rate. Looks like I will get to squirm alright. Squirm with delight when I complete on three more Fife cottages later this week. I am investing in Scotland. Irrelevant pipsqueaks like you should be grateful, not bitter. Anyway, train to Waverley tomorrow morning, on to St Andrews, get my pen out, have a nice night in one of my favourite hotels drinking with my youngest who is coming up with me, back on Friday. You can't stay there too long in case you bump into one of the 0.0001% similar to Akenaton.

Oh, you can't help being bitter. My mistake.

Subject: RE: BS: lets develop Scotland
From: akenaton
Date: 09 Jul 14 - 03:08 AM

As far as I am aware, absentee landlords do not have a vote.
You have no emotional stake in the future of Scotland Ian, you are only interested in protecting your investments.

I hope the first truly Scottish government makes you and your kind squirm.

Subject: RE: BS: lets develop Scotland
From: GUEST,Musket
Date: 09 Jul 14 - 02:52 AM

And that attitude is what is scary. If enough voters follow the Dylan Thomas maxim of "there are none so blind as those who will not see" Scotland might walk into a disastrous future, all in the name of Rob Roy idealism.

Surely the education system has sown enough seeds to prevent such reckless action? What concerns me is that Cameron only agreed to it on that basis, and his judgement hasn't been seen to be his best asset lately...

Subject: RE: BS: lets develop Scotland
From: Jim McLean
Date: 08 Jul 14 - 01:02 PM

This is all getting rather silly, no sensible debate.

Subject: RE: BS: lets develop Scotland
From: Musket
Date: 08 Jul 14 - 12:44 PM

If they did, you'd be whinging that they were trying to fetter a vote they agreed the terms of.

Anyway, it isn't a question of law, so no point in asking. It is when an application is forwarded, there is a process to follow and to preempt that process would be to undermine the whole membership system.

That's why Salmond can't ask either.

Or assert he knows the answer for that matter.....

Subject: RE: BS: lets develop Scotland
From: Jim McLean
Date: 08 Jul 14 - 10:42 AM

And why won't the UK government ask? Surlely that would end some uncertainty.

Subject: RE: BS: lets develop Scotland
From: Musket
Date: 08 Jul 14 - 10:25 AM

Of course The EU aren't interfering. It is a matter for a nation state member's internal affairs.

What has that got to do with anything? The EU cannot comment on an application when there is no country and it hasn't applied! Member states can though, including comment from Spain, on record.

Subject: RE: BS: lets develop Scotland
From: Jim McLean
Date: 08 Jul 14 - 09:35 AM

ITALY has effectively declared the European Union's neutrality on Scottish independence as it takes over the bloc's rotating presidency.

The country's European Affairs minister, Sandro Gozi, warned anything said by Brussels officials could be manipulated and said the vote should be up to Scots.

His remarks, couched in ­diplomatic language, mark a clear departure from the stance of former European Commission President Jose Manuel Barroso, who said it would be difficult if not impossible for Scotland to rejoin the bloc.

Mr Gozi, a former EC official and diplomat, said: "We are not worried by the referendum in Scotland and we have no position on it because they are responsible for deciding their own future.

"We don't believe it is necessary for the European Union to take an official decision in advance and we don't want to have any kind of influence. We don't want to say anything because any word could be manipulated."


He should just ask Teribus, he knows the answer and by the way, Teribus, England might not be an EU member soon, if Cameron and Farage have their way.

Subject: RE: BS: lets develop Scotland
From: Musket
Date: 08 Jul 14 - 09:33 AM

You think Salmond is leading this without party gain in mind?

What was that tripe about Westminster politicians all being cads and bounders and all those North of the border genuine and trustworthy??

King Alex I of Scotland and The Kingdom of Fife. He'll probably end up deploying troops to the ethnic British enclaves of Ellon and Avimore. UN forces will declare Balmoral a neutral zone.

No matter, plenty of Dutch tourists for my holiday lets and Norwegian students for the Edinburgh tenements, regardless of what happens.

Subject: RE: BS: lets develop Scotland
From: Teribus
Date: 08 Jul 14 - 08:50 AM

"I genuinely don't think the voters have enough information in order to give an informed vote."

EXACTLY - I couldn't agree more

"At the moment the MoD use a French firm to supply periscopes and submarine equipment and a German firm to install communication systems.

Nothing wrong with any of that the MoD acts on behalf of the British Government (EU Member State) to purchase equipment from two other EU Member States


"Follow the money" the man said and BT, as a global company, won't find working in Scotland undue difficult.

Apart from the fact that Scotland will not be an EU member state - will it.

Subject: RE: BS: lets develop Scotland
From: Jim McLean
Date: 08 Jul 14 - 08:40 AM

It really is quite amazing that neither of you can make comments without making derogatory remarks about Alex Salmond. I am not a member of the SNP but you really are quite puerile and demean your arguments somewhat.
I expect when a YES vote is returned pragmatism will take over after all the threats and program Fear are dead.
At the moment the MoD use a French firm to supply periscopes and submarine equipment and a German firm to install communication systems. "Follow the money" the man said and BT, as a global company, won't find working in Scotland undue difficult.

Subject: RE: BS: lets develop Scotland
From: Musket
Date: 08 Jul 14 - 08:24 AM

Yes, they are committed to The North Sea. But just read your quote from the Chairman again. This time, actually read what he said. Then read what his Chief Executive said..

The Northumberland base may not be needed, but if it is, it demonstrates that an independent Scotland would not have "any major implications" and shows their "commitment to The North Sea."

In any event, Reckless Alex would give them unsupportable tax breaks in order to keep some Aberdeen operations going, so some of the jobs would remain. Just won't pay the welfare, health and social care bills...

Joking apart, I'm not in either camp. I don't want to keep propping up Scottish social costs if there is some bugger else willing to do it. I don't care who runs the bloody place. It has a Parliament anyway. I genuinely don't think the voters have enough information in order to give an informed vote. I also think a stable region of a stable country wanting independence is a laughing stock in these global economy times.

If Scotland were a business, (and in some respects it is,) it would fall foul of the recommendations of The Higgs Report 2003, requiring non executive directors to be familiar with sufficient facts and figures to cast an informed vote.

Subject: RE: BS: lets develop Scotland
From: Teribus
Date: 08 Jul 14 - 08:19 AM

"Mr Searle made clear that BAE Systems had 'no plan B' for the build of Type 26 elsewhere in the United Kingdom' if there is a Yes vote - reflecting the fact that they are ending shipbuilding capacity at Portsmouth.

So, Teribus, either in Scotland or not at all."

Nope Jim, the choice facing Mr Searle will be build them where we tell you or you will not build them at all. In that case BAE will build them where they are told to build them and decisions relating to Portsmouth could easily be reversed.

"In August 2011 it was reported that the UK Government, together with BAE Systems, was considering entering into partnership with the Indian MoD and private defence shipyards in India to jointly design and build the Type 26/Global Combat Ship"

Perfectly correct it is highly likely that Type 26 Frigates will be built for Australia, Brazil and India. Those being built for Australia and Brazil would be built in the UK along with those being built for the Royal Navy, while there would be no problem at all with India building their Type 26's in India.

The one place they will not be built is in independent Scotland. The decision to award the contract will be political as much as anything else.

If Scotland votes YES on the 18th September 2014, then no Government or political party in their right mind will sign all that work away to a foreign country with a UK General Election happening in late spring early summer 2015 - to allow that work to go "abroad" would be political suicide - same thing goes for the Currency Union that Jowly Eck says will happen - absolute political poison for any UK political party.